Character Competitive Impressions

[Zionaze]

Is Wario's transition from Brawl to Smash 4 a Nerf or a buff?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Is Wario's transition from Brawl to Smash 4 a Nerf or a buff?

A nerf.

 

[TriTails]

Mario and Luigi can just do JCR U-Smash, which can be done out of a run. PP is more utilized for D-tilt.

Speaking of Mario's U-smash, 1.0.5 Lvl 9 Marios were like, trapped in a puddle of JC U-smash OoS. So basically = I Luigi F-air him. He PS. He JC U-smash right after.

Not sure why they took it out in 1.0.6. The CPUs just don't seem to punish with JC U-smash as often anymore. Last patch, hitting Mario's shield basically guaranteeing you getting head-smacked in the face. This patch? Yep. I just Luigi Cyclone'd to his shield. And he punish with a Fireball.

Mr. Sakurai why. You made Lvl 9 Luigis now do Jumped Cyclone properly(!) (Last patch, they would jump and then Cyclone right after, but DO NOT MASH IT, resulting in almost an inevitable KO. Now they do it. What a thing to happen), yet you make Marios dumber.

Anyway, I do wonder why I don't see much JC U-smash OoS from Marios (Unless I'm missing something). JC FJP OoS was something that made Mr. CC two-stocked ZeRo by getting an early kill at like 94%. Luigi can do the same, if it weren't for the fact that his traction is almost half of that of Mario's.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is Wario's transition from Brawl to Smash 4 a Nerf or a buff?

A buff, no doubt.

 

[the king of murder]

I read here somewhere that the "honest characters" will probably end on the lower part of the tier list. I disagree ...only to a degree though.

()-->unsure about their viability
I feel like these characters are probably the most balanced or let's say "honest" ones. They have the tools and frame data to deal with any kind of situations. They can deal with Shieks absurd combo game and frame data because of their mobility and own combo game and Needles don't seem to be much of an issue for them(except Yoshi maybe). They have ways to deal with Rosas Luma, Diddy ect...

I can't see these characters losing any more than 40:60 against anyone.

At the same time I can't see them winning against anyone more than 60:40 either. They don't have polarizing strenghts like Falcons disjoint+combo trap abilities, Pikas QA+juggling, kill power and range of (semi)heavies ect..... They have decent projectiles but they are not as obnoxious as say Needles are so they can't really wall anyone out.

That means everyone has ways to deal with them decently. Their range is good but not Falcon disjoint absurd, they have good frame data but nothing that can't be dealt with, decent kill options but need setups, hard read to use effectively ect...

yet it is generally agreed that these characters are(at least Mario and Yoshi) top 15. Maybe that is using ad populum though so let's see how everything develops first.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I have a hard time believing Wario won't be Top 5, if not Top 3, in the long run.

Where's the weak point? Approaching? No, Wario can bob and weave to his heart's content until he can go in with his great Dair or Speeding Bike.

Shields? Chomp is by far the best command grab in the game with no drawbacks at all (it catches ledge rolls when perfectly spaced!)

Defense? Not with Dtilt and Ftilt being as obnoxiously fast as they are now, with the latter killing reasonably as well, as well as the aforementioned Bike and Chomp. And that's just his grounded defense. Lack of grab releases and his great air speed lets him play aerial defense with ease.

KO ability? Top class air speed + Bike respawning every second + super armor full Waft killing at 60 without rage = he'll just wait for you to mess up and then go in.

The Fsmash nerf was hardly enough to justify the many, many buffs he got. He's got nowhere to go but up. Way up.

 

[Trifroze]

The term "honest" is silly since it assumes that there's an objective basis from which to judge some characters more right or wrong than others and it indirectly accuses anyone else of being cheap which, real talk, is a term for people who can't learn to deal with certain things. It creates unnecessary division of characters and a superiority/inferiority culture around fighting game characters. Unless I understand this term completely wrong.

Now if we instead categorize characters as "ones who piss me off" and "ones who don't piss me off", Yoshi and Mario are certainly in the former. Although I understand Falcon belonging there too, he does not have disjoint in many moves compared to other characters and I suggest you do some labbing before claiming so. Fsmash, his both jab finishers and dash attack are the only moves with any considerable disjoint.

Characters in general should be looked as a whole and I made a post about this a while back. Some characters have speed because they don't have a spammable projectile for approach or camping, some characters have a lot of power because they don't have good frame data, and some characters have good hitboxes and combos because they also get hit and comboed hard.

 

[Djent]

is probably better off in this game unless anyone can identify MUs that are worse than // were in Brawl. [I always had doubts about Marth, but it's not terribly important.] There's also mechanical changes that will likely help him more in the long run (that the Warios are better qualified to explain than I am).

 

[the king of murder]

The term "honest" is silly since it assumes that there's an objective basis from which to judge some characters more right or wrong than others and it indirectly accuses anyone else of being cheap which, real talk, is a term for people who can't learn to deal with certain things. It creates unnecessary division of characters and a superiority/inferiority culture around fighting game characters. Unless I understand this term completely wrong.

I believe what they mean with honest is in how the character in question doesn't have any outstanding weaknesses and strengths.

Now if we instead categorize characters as "ones who piss me off" and "ones who don't piss me off", Yoshi and Mario are certainly in the former. Although I understand Falcon belonging there too, he does not have disjoint in many moves compared to other characters and I suggest you do some labbing before claiming so. Fsmash, his both jab finishers and dash attack are the only moves with any considerable disjoint.

I have no problem with Falcon. I don't have problems with anyone in fact.

When I included him in the "polarizing characters" category I meant more of how extreme he is (really strong advantage because of trapping potential, disjoints on key moves and power but really weak disadvantage because of weight, falling speed and recovery). Maybe I worded that wrong, sorry about that. Just as Pikachu is a pretty extreme character with gimps and juggle power but prone to dying early because of weight and somewhat hard time killing on stage which means rage may be an issue.

 

[DunnoBro]

I got ****ed trying to edgeguard a Pit by breezy flight, super windbox bros is making me very displeased with customs.

How? Exactly what happened? Breezy flight always felt even freeer to edgeguard for me since the angles and timing are more obvious. (This is likely why Nairo doesn't like it)

 

[Trifroze]

I believe what they mean with honest is in how the character in question doesn't have any outstanding weaknesses and strengths.



I have no problem with Falcon. I don't have problems with anyone in fact.

When I included him in the "polarizing characters" category I meant more of how extreme he is (really strong advantage because of trapping potential, disjoints on key moves and power but really weak disadvantage because of weight, falling speed and recovery). Maybe I worded that wrong, sorry about that. Just as Pikachu is a pretty extreme character with gimps and juggle power but prone to dying early because of weight and somewhat hard time killing on stage which means rage may be an issue.

I may have a wrong understanding of the word honest in that case, based on the FGC I always thought it basically just means the opposite of "dumb".

 

[Thinkaman]

The concept of an "honest" character is the concept that playing my character (instead of yours) makes me a better person and player than you.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Honest: DK
Not honest: DK with customs

Practicing with honest DK will make you better than practicing with customs.
That's character honesty.

 

[wedl!!]

is an honest character until he rains hell upon you with eggs and nairs the size of minivans

i don't see the similarities between and. has great overall frame data and is significantly better at ground game than , who suffers from awful endlag but has disjoint and aerial kill moves that don't make him helpless.

 

[Antonykun]

Do elaborate, my friend, because I'm not seeing the comparison at all. Little Mac completely outstrips Swordfighter on the ground, at least in speed, and his kit is relatively quick both on startup and endlag. Swordfighter seems to have okay startup but miserable endlag. They both have good range, sure, but Swordfighter's is strictly disjoint while Mac's... really isn't.

Which is why Swordfighter is a watered down version of Little mac. The are still both characters who rarely want to be in the air in neutral but have great to nice tilts and jabs on the ground backed by a decent (default Swordfighter) to amazing (little Mac) ground. Little mac has the 3rd best run and 9th best walk whereas Swordfighter cannot compete (though I'd wager EVO or Tiny Swordfighter can).

Little Mac is of course miles beyond better than Swordfighter in this category of ground based spacing, but Swordfighter has a decent disadvantage state and an actual recovery

Addendum: I just realized That i forgot to mention in my first comment that their similarities start and end in neutral
Sorry about that
:<

 

[Firefoxx]

Now if we instead categorize characters as "ones who piss me off" and "ones who don't piss me off", Yoshi and Mario are certainly in the former. Although I understand Falcon belonging there too, he does not have disjoint in many moves compared to other characters and I suggest you do some labbing before claiming so. Fsmash, his both jab finishers and dash attack are the only moves with any considerable disjoint.

Up-smash also has a pretty ridiculous disjoint on both hits (or maybe its just the first, but I swear his foot has a vertical disjoint on the second hit), but yeah for the most part Falcon just has a combination of range and damage that makes it seem like he has a bunch of hidden disjoints

 

[ChronoPenguin]

How? Exactly what happened? Breezy flight always felt even freeer to edgeguard for me since the angles and timing are more obvious. (This is likely why Nairo doesn't like it)

Went for an early kill, was dodged, tried to get back to the ledge immediately, ended up with me eating a breezly flight mid up-special. He didn't snap he just recovered high and I got windboxed.

Can I get the scrub label? I don't enjoy the increased availability of windboxes in Customs. Am I supposed to learn to love that, they are easily the main contributors to my waning approval.

 

[NegaNixx]

I thought honest was referring to a character that relies more heavily on solid fundamental game play, above any other areas of game play. Starting out with an "honest" character would theoretically help your overall smash growth more. In my opinion that is.

 

[DunnoBro]

Went for an early kill, was dodged, tried to get back to the ledge immediately, ended up with me eating a breezly flight mid up-special. He didn't snap he just recovered high and I got windboxed.

Can I get the scrub label? I don't enjoy the increased availability of windboxes in Customs. Am I supposed to learn to love that.

Who were you using? What upsecial?

Regardless, the situation sounds like you went too deep, had the situation turned on you, and are just finding the most convenient john. So yea, it sounds pretty scrubby to me but that's irrelevant.

 

[bc1910]

I read here somewhere that the "honest characters" will probably end on the lower part of the tier list. I disagree ...only to a degree though.

()-->unsure about their viability

As @ Thinkaman said, a large part of the concept of honesty just comes down to people comforting themselves by declaring their character more honest than others and thus thinking they're saints for maining them. From my point of view though, honesty simply means "lacking jank". Like, a character who just has... I dunno, regular, normal moves. It's impossible to define normal in a game as varied as Smash which I think is a big part of why people never agree on who the honest characters are, but it's a lot easier to define "jank". And that being said, I don't think a character not being "honest" is necessarily a bad thing. As I said, characters are just so varied... why does honesty matter? How do you even define it?

Anyway, I still find it fun to discuss although I do think honesty is kind of a pointless concept. I wouldn't say Mario is all that honest since despite being known as a balanced character who's good for beginners he's actually quite specialized in this game, with some of the best frame data and combo potential letting him steamroll most of the cast up close.

I used to think Yoshi was honest, and I probably still stand by that. Although there's a little bit of janky-wackiness going on with his great aerials and Egg Toss making it so easy to land them, and when you do land them you often rack up huge amounts of damage from follow-ups.

The Pits and Marcina are all very honest IMO.

I used to think Greninja was honest because all his jank was patched out but actually he's pretty obnoxious in some MUs due to his crazy mobility. Some characters have a pretty tough time locking him down or even hitting him. And Hydro Pump probably still makes the "jank" category in MUs where characters rely on linear Up Bs to recover, it's still a multi-directional FLUDD that can be used offstage with no risk and practically guarantees you can hit them with a Smash attack.

Sheik is not very honest lol.

Would Fox be honest with no jab semi-infinite? I think he might be. Typical speedster type character who can go ham at times but struggles against block. He'd still be good but I don't think being good automatically makes you a dishonest character, you can just be very good at a jank-less tactic.

 

[mimgrim]

Greninja is like the total opposite of honest.

Just because of the trickster playstyle.

 

[Nu~]

Greninja is like the total opposite of honest.

Just because of the trickster playstyle.

He is part dark after all :^)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Honesty? I play a janky low tier.

What is this honesty you speak of?

Smooth Criminal

 

[wedl!!]

i agree with the sentiment that would be classified as an honest character were his jablock removed. the character has a pretty well-rounded design without all the BS that a certain green dinosaur has.

Honesty? I play a janky low tier.

honesty? i come from the land of float aerials that aren't punished on block.

 

[Luco]

i agree with the sentiment that would be classified as an honest character were his jablock removed. the character has a pretty well-rounded design without all the BS that a certain green dinosaur has.

honesty? i come from the land of float aerials that aren't punished on block.

You're gonna tell me how dishonest YOUR character is?

"What even is a shield?"

I'm not sure this has truly been brought up since the patch hit, but I'd like to re-open the discussion again - with Diddy actually being semi-fair now + Sheik Bair nerfs, are people more prepared to say this Smash is the best balanced so far? Or is it still a case of 'it's been half a year and we have clear dominating characters so no'?

 

[the king of murder]

As @ Thinkaman said, a large part of the concept of honesty just comes down to people comforting themselves by declaring their character more honest than others and thus thinking they're saints for maining them. From my point of view though, honesty simply means "lacking jank". Like, a character who just has... I dunno, regular, normal moves. It's impossible to define normal in a game as varied as Smash which I think is a big part of why people never agree on who the honest characters are, but it's a lot easier to define "jank". And that being said, I don't think a character not being "honest" is necessarily a bad thing. As I said, characters are just so varied... why does honesty matter? How do you even define it?

You are right, it seems like the term honesty isn't clearly defined yet. I always thought of it as having "no extremes".

 

[mimgrim]

Even if Smash 4 is the best balanced *official* Smash game *so far*. It isn't that big of an accomplishment still. Just saying.

 

[Emblem Lord]

None of this balance garbage matters. The game has seen what, 3 balance change patches in less than 6 months?

This is insane.

Don't get attached to how good your char is. In 3 months there is a good chance they will be worse.

Just play the game.

 

[Ffamran]

A nerf.

A buff, no doubt.

You two could, y'know, explain why. I never played Wario in Brawl and I don't know much about him other than stuff like his Bike had infinite health and regenerated, his Side Smash changed from being a tackle similar to in Wario Land?, and his air speed was the same as Wolf's in Brawl which also gave them incredible air games. Also, I just realized his "vacuum" Bite is similar to the GCN Wario game I don't remember... Maybe I should track copy down or wait until Nintendo re-releases it on Virtual Console. Point is: I don't know anything about Wario and even if he was nerfed or buffed, he still seems like a strong character who's not really being played like Peach.

 

[Spinosaurus]

It's really mostly that Wario got completely screwed by bull like grab release and certain matchups that straight up invalidated him. There's none of that in Smash 4.

 

[mimgrim]

I think it is just a case that in a straight comparison of Brawl Wario to Smash 4 Wario, Smash 4 Wario is technically overall nerfed. But Smash 4 Wario is an in overall better place then Brawl and the nerf to other Brawl characters and mechanic changes in Smash 4 helped him a lot meaning he buff. :L

Either way, I miss his Brawl Dair. ;-;

 

[Ffamran]

Isn't Wario's current Dair still a strong tool? That or it's dealing with a character with bad air speed and never fighting a lot of Wario players that lets them Dair to Corkscrew a lot.

 

[mimgrim]

Isn't Wario's current Dair still a strong tool? That or it's dealing with a character with bad air speed and never fighting a lot of Wario players that lets them Dair to Corkscrew a lot.

It has landing lag now from a non-FFed SH.

 

[The pig-keeper]

But I doubt that Japan is better than the US.
Click to expand...
At the very least, the skill density in Japan is higher.

You guys aren't that much looking forward to seeing european tournaments are you ?

 

[A2ZOMG]

The concept of an "honest" character is the concept that playing my character (instead of yours) makes me a better person and player than you.

I don't think I completely agree with that. A lot of "honesty" alludes to apparent game design intentions.

For instance, shifting character models creating matchup specific punish situations is pretty dishonest. Especially notable on someone like Sheik, Kirby, or even Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait, you guys know Marth can grab release Wario right? With custom Crescent Slash?

 

[kackamee]

What stops characters like Kirby and Falco from being on the honest list?

 

[PUK]

You guys aren't that much looking forward to seeing european tournaments are you ?

The day the meltdown will invest in a GCC will be a good day for the french scene

 

[bc1910]

Kirby's crouch probably stops people calling him honest.

Falco's pretty honest in SSB4 though.

 

[The pig-keeper]

The day the meltdown will invest in a GCC will be a good day for the french scene

Wasn't especially refering to the French scene, given tht it belongs to a whole (which I think is the European scene).
Basically, I confess we're not as active as you guys, and undoubtly you are leading it.