Character Competitive Impressions

[Spinosaurus]

frame perfect gazelle punches (momentum cancel ko from the ledge jump option)

Mac techs named after Hajime no Ippo? I approve.

Thinking about it, the lack of representation for the Pits is really surprising. They just seem like they've got a lot of options and strengths to compete.

 

[Asdioh]

Because Diddy can still easily string 2~3 U Airs out of a juggle / throw, and can edgeguard quite nasty with F Air. Chain B Airs for days, and D Air is just the most sexy move of the game. Really, I cannot imagine any attack more satisfying to land.

Lucas Bair, easily.

Duck Hunt should've been banned a while ago, and it is my hope that it goes away in time. In the meantime, though, as a Wario player, I -dare- you to take me to one of the levels that frustrates Mac.

Is the Duck Hunt stage really banworthy?
Why does a stage share a name with a character anyway, that's a first right?

Also I'm visiting Japan for 2 weeks, RIP smash bros for now (but wait, portable smash exists!)

 

[Mr. Johan]

People in this game seems to gravitate toward characters that have a quality that defines the character and everyone gushes about. Meta Knight and Dthrow/DA strings, Donkey Bong and Kong Cyclone, Palutena with customs, Marth and tippers, and so on.

The Pits don't have anything like that. Everything they do, someone else does as well, and they do it more notably, even if it isn't objectively better.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is the Duck Hunt stage really banworthy?
Why does a stage share a name with a character anyway, that's a first right?

Circle camping is a significant thing against certain characters, and it skews the stage list elsewhere; in the matchups where players actually fight, do we really need another stage slot for "FD with walls below the ledges?"

 

[bc1910]

People in this game seems to gravitate toward characters that have a quality that defines the character and everyone gushes about. Meta Knight and Dthrow/DA strings, Donkey Bong and Kong Cyclone, Palutena with customs, Marth and tippers, and so on.

The Pits don't have anything like that. Everything they do, someone else does as well, and they do it more notably, even if it isn't objectively better.

The Pits have pretty cool Fthrows.

although Wario's is the same and Zard's Dthrow is better

 

[Trunks159]

In regards to macs viability, I definitely think we're seeing a lot of growth and room. Contrary to popular opinion I actually think he requires a ton of technical finesse to execute on a competitive level. Perfect pivot up tilts, jump cancelled specials, frame perfect gazelle punches (momentum cancel ko from the ledge jump option), boost grabbing to compensate for his atrocious grab range. Anyhow, I think he needs revisited as his competitive viability becomes more explored. I made a montage, give it a look and let me know if you like it, at the least it should serve to entertain (and show some interesting tech).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTZWa-toKaI

The problem with Lil Mac is not his neutral, or his combo viability, its his disadvantage stage. His disadvantage state is just too easy to capitalize off of. Basically, Mac is insane when the person playing him makes no mistakes, but every little mistake can literally go into a kill or lengthly egdeguard. Hes still good though, but under limited circumstances. Maybe customs help? (I don't know)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The combination of having nothing that is safe on shield (no, not even dtilt), a bad disadvantage, being able to do nothing with platforms and usually dying from one grab or hit near the ledge at any percent isn't an ignorable set of weaknesses. His moves are extremely fast and strong but when you can just get in mid range and shield + punish anything he does and then kill him before he gets the KO punch his strengths don't help him at all. Mac kinda dies to patient play while wrecking aggressive styles, but there's no reason to ever do the latter versus him.

Hell, even Ganondorf has usmash, fair and on taller characters bair which are safe on shield. He doesn't die offstage instantly, can edgeguard well, and kills earlier than Mac.

A well-spaced D-Tilt is safe on shield against anyone who doesn't have a Frame 7 Dash Attack or a tether grab, assuming they don't have momentum from a run prior to shielding. The space between each Jab, if used at maximum speed, does not allow opponents to shieldgrab between hits.

You're encouraged to respect F-Tilt and Dash Attack for being enormous and fast (and because attempting to punish D-Tilt requires you to drop your shield in a way that the second punch of F-Tilt would hit you), and that allows him to get away with roll-cancel grabs (Frame 11) and cross-up Forward-B on shields, the latter specifically against slower characters. His great rolls and spotdodge, on top of foxtrots and dashdancing into stutter-step F-Smash, discourage players from throwing too many attacks out preemptively for fear of whiffing and getting punished.

 

[Shaya]

The pit's basic mid range tools of Dash Attack and Dash Grab (with follow ups) are pretty fantastic. No doubt they're going to be relying heavily on them no matter what. The speed and range of their dash attacks is pretty monstrous, honestly one of the better ones in the game yet we don't really hear about it. Unlike MK, they actually have other options to compete with though, but are not as rewarded through those two moves as well as MK is. To top it off, he practically has Brawl MK's down smash, heck I'm pretty sure it's safer on shield than Brawl MK's was, it's a little disgusting how much they can get away with "spamming" it (and I don't think it's good that it's relied on as a crutch by many when it really shouldn't be / more rewarding options probably exist).
When I play For Glory and I come across Japanese players, the way they play against Pit is so weird, they overly respect him for some reason that doesn't happen when playing him normally/otherwise, I'm yet to fully grasp what it is, but somehow Pits over there are having that impact on the player base.

Aiming bows upwards though is really underutilized, although I think it's pretty good. Cancelling your run with it and aiming upwards during traps/etc.
Pit's don't use up throw whilst it's giving up air traps for longer than down throw and sets up perfectly well for upwards arrows.
I personally don't use down throw much at all, blame Marth habits, but Forward Throw and trapping people towards the ledge/horizontally proper I find more consistent than 45 degree mid-air trapping which due to his poor aerial mobility, short hop fast fall specs and only one relevant "strong hit" aerial (bair) is kinda lacklustre.

All in all, I just wish Pit's jab was slightly better. He's pretty great at representing a player's fundamentals but falls short in areas enough to inhibit him from being a shoe in for high tier (or greater). His spread of tools make him top 10 in mid-range game play IMO and that incurs quite a bit of dominance/strength on Wifi, which I guess is the primary place you'll ever see the Pits, hopefully we can kinda figure out the missing link between Japan's perceptions of him. Pre-apex I was talking (albeit it not really beyond monosyllabic discourse) to Japanese players and the lack of Pit's popularity in the West was surprising, it's been the itch in the back of my mind ever since; "what am I missing here?".

 

[Project Quarantine]

In regards to macs viability, I definitely think we're seeing a lot of growth and room. Contrary to popular opinion I actually think he requires a ton of technical finesse to execute on a competitive level. Perfect pivot up tilts, jump cancelled specials, frame perfect gazelle punches (momentum cancel ko from the ledge jump option), boost grabbing to compensate for his atrocious grab range. Anyhow, I think he needs revisited as his competitive viability becomes more explored. I made a montage, give it a look and let me know if you like it, at the least it should serve to entertain (and show some interesting tech).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTZWa-toKaI

Wow that's impressive. I totally have a different opinion on Mac now. I can't wait for a tech guide

 

[LiteralGrill]

Just had an odd moment messing around while thinking of Little Mac that got me to maybe discover something. Not entirely sure when the part where you can't hit Mac out of his charged neutral b starts, but the attack starts in four frames. I was using it randomly in the air and powering through normal attacks from opponents with reletive safety. Could Mac have an air move that's somewhat fast and give him invinsibility in a way? Because that'd be pretty boss. (My favorite part was out this ate through needles or people charging them)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just had an odd moment messing around while thinking of Little Mac that got me to maybe discover something. Not entirely sure when the part where you can't hit Mac out of his charged neutral b starts, but the attack starts in four frames. I was using it randomly in the air and powering through normal attacks from opponents with reletive safety. Could Mac have an air move that's somewhat fast and give him invinsibility in a way? Because that'd be pretty boss. (My favorite part was out this ate through needles or people charging them)

The armor on Neutral-B starts at Frame 1, but you have to charge it for a minimum of 34 frames, and any single move that deals more than 8% beats the armor and just hits Mac like normal. You have to charge it for longer than a full second to get even marginal distance on it, and no matter how long it's charged, you can just shield it and punish it for free. You can't even B-Reverse it. It's just not a useful move.

If you're sure about when the opponent is going to hit you, you can do an Up-B to stop it, since that's invincible on Frame 1 and the initial hitbox is pretty low on your body.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The pit's basic mid range tools of Dash Attack and Dash Grab (with follow ups) are pretty fantastic. No doubt they're going to be relying heavily on them no matter what. The speed and range of their dash attacks is pretty monstrous, honestly one of the better ones in the game yet we don't really hear about it. Unlike MK, they actually have other options to compete with though, but are not as rewarded through those two moves as well as MK is. To top it off, he practically has Brawl MK's down smash, heck I'm pretty sure it's safer on shield than Brawl MK's was, it's a little disgusting how much they can get away with "spamming" it (and I don't think it's good that it's relied on as a crutch by many when it really shouldn't be / more rewarding options probably exist).
When I play For Glory and I come across Japanese players, the way they play against Pit is so weird, they overly respect him for some reason that doesn't happen when playing him normally/otherwise, I'm yet to fully grasp what it is, but somehow Pits over there are having that impact on the player base.

Aiming bows upwards though is really underutilized, although I think it's pretty good. Cancelling your run with it and aiming upwards during traps/etc.
Pit's don't use up throw whilst it's giving up air traps for longer than down throw and sets up perfectly well for upwards arrows.
I personally don't use down throw much at all, blame Marth habits, but Forward Throw and trapping people towards the ledge/horizontally proper I find more consistent than 45 degree mid-air trapping which due to his poor aerial mobility, short hop fast fall specs and only one relevant "strong hit" aerial (bair) is kinda lacklustre.

All in all, I just wish Pit's jab was slightly better. He's pretty great at representing a player's fundamentals but falls short in areas enough to inhibit him from being a shoe in for high tier (or greater). His spread of tools make him top 10 in mid-range game play IMO and that incurs quite a bit of dominance/strength on Wifi, which I guess is the primary place you'll ever see the Pits, hopefully we can kinda figure out the missing link between Japan's perceptions of him. Pre-apex I was talking (albeit it not really beyond monosyllabic discourse) to Japanese players and the lack of Pit's popularity in the West was surprising, it's been the itch in the back of my mind ever since; "what am I missing here?".

I think pit is lacking some explosive stuff. It's not like his customs add that much. That's at least how I feel about pit. Maybe I'll consider him the ryu of sm4sh.

 

[Nobie]

Why do the Pits' Forward Smash outrange Marth and Lucina's F-Smashes? Like seriously

 

[Pyr]

Do you mean for a reason other then them being totally different characters with different everything and playstyle? =p

Well, Pit's F-Smash doesn't kill as early due to it's lower damage on the second hit then their f-smashes and a low base knockback rating holding it back from rage having as severe an effect, along with it being slower for the second hit and the ability for that second hit to miss.

 

[Kofu]

The Pits have some serious range, especially on the ground, and decent movement specs. Wonderful frame data, a decent projectile (normal Pit's is generally better but they both get a useful one with customs), and good aerial juggles. Their only apparent weakness to me is a very vulnerable Up-B, but that can be worked around somewhat with their multiple jumps and their Side-B.

 

[Charls]

I think pit is lacking some explosive stuff. It's not like his customs add that much. That's at least how I feel about pit. Maybe I'll consider him the ryu of sm4sh.

Guiding Bow is actually a very solid custom move when one considers all the extra utility it brings to Pit's game. For example the loops Guiding Bow's uncharged/slightly charged arrows can make give Pit an easier time landing, as the diameter and duration of their circles are wide enough to interrupt juggling or edge guarding attempts within relative safety. The loops also let Pit approach with his arrows or keep them above his opponent until he decides to bring them down. Hit-confirming into Ftilt or Fsmash is a common option on grounded opponents when an arrow is out. It's slower speed isn't even a problem when sniping offstage opponents considering you can just bring the arrow back and again until it dissapears. I would personally consider Guiding Bow to be a plain upgrade - and a great one at that - if it wasn't for its weakness to platform/hazard heavy stages.

But yes, the Pits' customs are underwhelming outside of Guiding Bow. Only his Orbitar customs are worth considering for the most part.

 

[thehard]

Man ZeRo just called out the entirety of America on stream, but especially their Falcon mains ahahaha. He absolutely annihilated FOW in Winners and Grand Finals (with a bit of Diddy but mostly Sheik).

 

[HeroMystic]

Man ZeRo just called out the entirety of America on stream, but especially their Falcon mains ahahaha. He absolutely annihilated FOW in Winners and Grand Finals (with a bit of Diddy but mostly Sheik).

FOW was destroying ZeRo's Diddy but an unfortunate SD made him lose the match. After that ZeRo went Sheik and it was an easy ride the rest of the way.

As for the interview, the funny part is most of it is true.

Now I will say ZeRo was definitely trolling, but he does make a good point through all of his ranting about how bad the USA is in comparison to Japan.

Poor Falcon mains though.

 

[Kofu]

Man ZeRo just called out the entirety of America on stream, but especially their Falcon mains ahahaha. He absolutely annihilated FOW in Winners and Grand Finals (with a bit of Diddy but mostly Sheik).

Any particular reason why?

 

[Pyr]

Any particular reason why?

My kneejerk guess would be attitude towards the game itself and philosophies when it comes to training. I read something earlier that goes into a lot more detail. Got to find that post though.

Edit: I'm a derp and misread which part of the post you were quoting. Forgive me senpai!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

FOW was destroying ZeRo's Diddy but an unfortunate SD made him lose the match. After that ZeRo went Sheik and it was an easy ride the rest of the way.

As for the interview, the funny part is most of it is true.

Now I will say ZeRo was definitely trolling, but he does make a good point through all of his ranting about how bad the USA is in comparison to Japan.

Poor Falcon mains though.

Didn't see the matches or the interviews. But I doubt that Japan is better than the US. But we shall see at EVO though (if any japanese players are attending ). Also U don't recall japan winning any tournaments when they came up for Apex. I could be wrong though.

Also I don't think the top 5 players in the US would lise to Japan's top 5 or anyone else's.

 

[Unknownkid]

It appears that the King is bored and wants to stir some stuff. EVO is going to be really interesting this year.

 

[HeroMystic]

My kneejerk guess would be attitude towards the game itself and philosophies when it comes to training. I read something earlier that goes into a lot more detail. Got to find that post though.

You can watch it here: http://www.twitch.tv/newmetastream/b/660419492?t=11h1m0s

 

[Shaya]

Probably "Falcon's broken, why aren't you winning everything yet?"

Edit: Basically right, not including "I don't even play this character"

 

[thehard]

It appears that the King is bored and wants to stir some stuff. EVO is going to be really interesting this year.

It's working, I've never seen an /r/smashbros Sm4sh results thread blow up so fast. Twitter is abuzz too

https://twitter.com/Fals1fy/status/600560562909671424

 

[webbedspace]

Quote from him: "won a tournament with Dabuz, with Falcon" is an interesting choice of words considering Dabuz didn't make Grand Finals in that tournament (having lost to DFW's own Dakpo).

Circle camping is a significant thing against certain characters, and it skews the stage list elsewhere; in the matchups where players actually fight, do we really need another stage slot for "FD with walls below the ledges?"

*glances at the Melee stage list*
Also lately I've been won over by the little things Duck Hunt brings, specifically how the tree affects vertical recovery and disadvantage, providing a modicum of anti-juggling terrain. And, of course, how it provides a weird boost to a certain three characters' up-throws.

 

[Trifroze]

Why do the Pits' Forward Smash outrange Marth and Lucina's F-Smashes? Like seriously

lel

FOW was destroying ZeRo's Diddy but an unfortunate SD made him lose the match. After that ZeRo went Sheik and it was an easy ride the rest of the way.

As for the interview, the funny part is most of it is true.

Now I will say ZeRo was definitely trolling, but he does make a good point through all of his ranting about how bad the USA is in comparison to Japan.

Poor Falcon mains though.

It's sadly true, the character has real no high level representation although Fatality is good and really uses the character the way he should be used, utilizing all that Falcon can do. You could say the same about 10 other characters that have decent chance of doing well in Smash 4 though, but Falcon is probably the best example. There is a lot of tech though, none of it just ever gets out because there's no high level representation and the Falcon boards are a mess because our mod has been inactive for months.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If I recall correctly, Fatality played ZeRo in a Falcon ditto money match at APEX and beat him, for all that's worth.

 

[Makorel]

Pit's don't use up throw whilst it's giving up air traps for longer than down throw and sets up perfectly well for upwards arrows.

All throws have their uses. I switch from D throw to Up throw once follow ups stop being guaranteed because of the extra damage Up throw does. I don't neglect forward or back throw too much if I'm near the edge but I like to keep forward throw fresh so that I can kill with it.

Their only apparent weakness to me is a very vulnerable Up-B, but that can be worked around somewhat with their multiple jumps and their Side-B.

Arrows are helpful here too. If Pit is sent high he can fire one off as he's falling so that the opponent is locked in shield/dodge/hitstun while he Up B's safely. I don't have nearly as much a problem getting back to the stage as I do getting on the stage from the ledge since Pit's poor air maneuverability makes follow ups from just letting go of the edge a far less desirable option.

Also rage helps Pit a lot. I haven't noticed it affect my ground game really but I have noticed it increase the KB of my kill moves, to the point where they KO at almost reasonable percents.

 

[Pazx]

Town and City is one of Mac's best stages, actually. The platforms are only there for half of the time, and the other half just turns the stage into Final Destination with a lower ceiling. The platforms give him a bit of flexibility when he's recovering, and sometimes you can get cheesy Up-B KOs at low percents if someone approaches you wrong near the platforms there.

Duck Hunt should've been banned a while ago, and it is my hope that it goes away in time. In the meantime, though, as a Wario player, I -dare- you to take me to one of the levels that frustrates Mac.

I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on Duck Hunt, because to me it seems like it has potential to be problematic if and only if one of the characters being played is Pikachu (who can do things with QA on other stages with greater success), Little Mac or Ganondorf.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on Duck Hunt, because to me it seems like it has potential to be problematic if and only if one of the characters being played is Pikachu (who can do things with QA on other stages with greater success), Little Mac or Ganondorf.

Mega Man can camp well with Rush Coil. Wario can camp well with his Bike. I've also done it as Jigglypuff.

If I'm not one of the characters who abuse or have to deal with the potential camping and I don't want to play on Final Destination, I shouldn't have to spend my second ban on Duck Hunt to make sure I don't have much the same fight anyway. It skews the stage list into there being "also Final Destination" for characters who camp/get camped.

 

[wedl!!]

duck hunt is basically fd that's awful for if i wanted to summarize it briefly

i mean it's not like there were other reasons to have other mains to make up for his numerous downfalls

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But I doubt that Japan is better than the US.

At the very least, the skill density in Japan is higher.

 

[Thinkaman]

Duck Hunt is also bad for Ganondorf, not just Mac.

 

[Firefoxx]

Rage is pretty much the only thing that makes Electroshock-Arm worth a damn. Its such a garbage move before Dark Pit is at 100% and then becomes a surprisingly good option to secure KO's close to the ledge while your opponent is scared of being f-thrown

 

[wedl!!]

yea electroarm is booty if you have a functioning

@ Thinkaman i didnt mention it because 's best stage is nowhere near

 

[warionumbah2]

The MKs in Japan are lackluster(bad). Which is odd since he's more popular in Japan than he is in the US.

 

[Ulevo]

The MKs in Japan are lackluster(bad). Which is odd since he's more popular in Japan than he is in the US.

I'll be honest, Japan does not impress me. Excluding a few players, every tournament I've watched for them has been underwhelming compared to what players in the West can do.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The same arguments were made before Apex 2012.

Watch history repeat itself, seems like people *never* learn.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Man APEX 2012 was still the worst tournament I ever attended to this day.