Character Competitive Impressions

[Nysyr]

Worth pointing out that if Luma dies to something that doesn't send it flying, it takes a few seconds to explode. Did you sit and wait around for a while after it made the noise?

Rested, took 17 laser not 18. She did take a while to pop so i got an Extra one.

Edit: Tested with Jab which does 2%, she correctly died at 24 Jabs.

Also tested with DK side-b which does 10% and it took 6 to kill Luma, I have no idea what's going on now.

Edit2: 5 DK ftilts at max range at 10% per killed.

 

[Antonykun]

In the default meta, I would say Pikachu has noticeably better killing ability than , , ,,, and .

He has at least marginally better killing ability than , , ,, and .

He has about the same ease of killing as /, , , and .

He does not lose to 49 characters in terms of KO ability. He has plenty of tools for kill setups and gimps that appear to be completely slept on at this point. If this and the light weight are all that we can come up with as weaknesses for Pikachu, he's obviously top tier. Legitimately everything else about Pikachu is extremely good: he has great frame data on top of good range with some disjoints, he has great combos and damage output, he brutalizes people off stage, he has a very small hurtbox and an amazing recovery while being good at disadvantage, he can go for a reasonable reward without having to take a comparable risk, he is very non linear and unpredictable, and he generally has more control over the flow of the match than his opponent due to his incredible mobility and his very solid, very versatile neutral game.

Again, his only real weakness in my eyes is his high execution barrier.

Lol Pikachu having better kill power than Swordfighter

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I thought 1111 swordfighter was pretty limited in neutral and has issues getting in to deal damage and set up kills? And I feel like Pikachu has a better off stage gimp game as good as the dair is.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Sword has like five kill moves* (uair, bair, fair, ftilt, fsmash) and pikachu has like one? maybe two? (usmash, fsmash)


*I use this term generously in most of these cases.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's probably even Rosalina can keep Wario out pretty effectively. I think she has to be worried about Waft and the edgeguard. Some of his ground game can give her problems like dtilt and DA. Other than that though IDK. I'd need to play the MU more though. Have only played it online. With customs Rosalina laser bit will blow up speed bike in one shot and heavy bike could be a pain but being grounded isn't always the same problem for rosa as it is other characters. Incidentally rosa can edgeguard Wario pretty well. He has to recover high because of the dair threat. Which kinda plays into Rosalina's hands.

Rosalina is physically incapable of approaching most characters, let alone Wario. Wario has a hard time with approaching Rosalina, too, but he doesn't want to approach anyone, so they spend two minutes at a relative standstill. Wario is never in significant danger in neutral and has little trouble stalling for Waft at any given time.

Rosalina isn't difficult to edgeguard; Rosalina is forced to use an aerial with a very lengthy animation, airdodge, or Up-B early. Wario spams airdodge in front of her with the occasional F-Air/B-Air to bait one of the first two options, which gets him a relatively free aerial or Waft; sourspot F-Air gets him another F-Air or Waft as a combo, too. Wario's Bike allows him to chase Rosalina if she Up-Bs early to get his punish there. If she goes low, pulling out the Bike and jumping off as soon as possible, prevents you from crashing into the stage, letting the reasonably powerful Bike grind into the level right below the ledge for 15 frames and threatening to stage spike her if she runs into it.

When Wario ditches the Bike on the ground, if Rosalina doesn't jump, Luma will get hit by it. The ditched Bike cannot be Down-B'd by Rosalina while it's on the ground, so there's no risk involved to doing it on Wario's side. Jumping in the air lets Wario harass her landing with Forward-B and Dash Attack, both of which knock Luma away a good bit. Rosalina is solid at walling Wario in general, but it's curtains for her if she's knocked offstage, and Wario gets much more by having her in the air than Rosalina does when she has Wario in the air. Also, with her tall/large body, rising D-Air and jumping Neutral-B become more viable, and Neutral-B hits Luma on each consecutive chomp.

I used to think Rosalina had the advantage until I embraced all of these things. Just stop fighting her in a traditional way and Wario gets so much better here.

 

[Ikes]

A good Mii Swordfighter can beat ANY sheik.

 

[Trifroze]

We should really define what a kill move means. I'd say a kill move is something that can reliably remove the stock at around 120-130% or earlier and isn't extremely slow and unsafe. Slow alone doesn't matter if it's safe to throw out like MK's fsmash, and unsafe alone doesn't matter if it's fast like Fox's usmash, but both negative qualities combined and it's really never a good decision. Also if your opponent gets to like 150% then you already screwed up and almost any move such as several throws, aerials and jabs kill at these percentages or slightly earlier and thus shouldn't be considered kill moves.

The problem is defining what "reliably ending stocks" really means. An aerial might kill at 100% from the ideal side of the stage but not from the middle let alone the opposite side, and you'll usually find equal opportunities for all of those. I think we just have to draw a grey line and say "if it almost always ends the stock before 130% it's a kill move". If it doesn't kill at those percentages from the middle of the stage, it's sadly not really a kill move. If it hits at the non-ideal side of the stage sending the opponent across the screen and doesn't kill, it'll pass if it otherwise gets the job done.

If you use any higher definition than 130% then almost every character has a kill throw or jab which is just silly.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Rosalina is physically incapable of approaching most characters, let alone Wario. Wario has a hard time with approaching Rosalina, too, but he doesn't want to approach anyone, so they spend two minutes at a relative standstill. Wario is never in significant danger in neutral and has little trouble stalling for Waft at any given time.

Rosalina isn't difficult to edgeguard; Rosalina is forced to use an aerial with a very lengthy animation, airdodge, or Up-B early. Wario spams airdodge in front of her with the occasional F-Air/B-Air to bait one of the first two options, which gets him a relatively free aerial or Waft; sourspot F-Air gets him another F-Air or Waft as a combo, too. Wario's Bike allows him to chase Rosalina if she Up-Bs early to get his punish there. If she goes low, pulling out the Bike and jumping off as soon as possible, prevents you from crashing into the stage, letting the reasonably powerful Bike grind into the level right below the ledge for 15 frames and threatening to stage spike her if she runs into it.

When Wario ditches the Bike on the ground, if Rosalina doesn't jump, Luma will get hit by it. The ditched Bike cannot be Down-B'd by Rosalina while it's on the ground, so there's no risk involved to doing it on Wario's side. Jumping in the air lets Wario harass her landing with Forward-B and Dash Attack, both of which knock Luma away a good bit. Rosalina is solid at walling Wario in general, but it's curtains for her if she's knocked offstage, and Wario gets much more by having her in the air than Rosalina does when she has Wario in the air. Also, with her tall/large body, rising D-Air and jumping Neutral-B become more viable, and Neutral-B hits Luma on each consecutive chomp.

I used to think Rosalina had the advantage until I embraced all of these things. Just stop fighting her in a traditional way and Wario gets so much better here.

You can't just sit around in neutral and avoid Rosalina. Rosalina is almost always a threat in neutral because of luma warp. So it's not like you just wait for waft to charge and do nothing. That has to be accounted for almost always especially considering luma warp combos into to everything for her. I'm not too sure about the stuff you're talking about in terms of the bike but I'll keep it in mind. If I see Wario doing stuff by tthe ledge I will try to shot him or luma warp into things. The dynamics of course change without luma. But she has an answer sometimes.

 

[meleebrawler]

You can't just sit around in neutral and avoid Rosalina. Rosalina is almost always a threat in neutral because of luma warp. So it's not like you just wait for waft to charge and do nothing. That has to be accounted for almost always especially considering luma warp combos into to everything for her. I'm not too sure about the stuff you're talking about in terms of the bike but I'll keep it in mind. If I see Wario doing stuff by tthe ledge I will try to shot him or luma warp into things. The dynamics of course change without luma. But she has an answer sometimes.

And who said they were considering customs?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

And who said they were considering customs?

If you're not talking customs you might as well not even bother quoting me.

 

[Project Quarantine]

A good Mii Swordfighter can beat ANY sheik.

Wait, what? Please explain

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If a move can't stop Lucario before he goes super saiyan its not a kill move.
Why overcomplicate it. You know exactly what your kill moves are when Lucario hits 100%. Crap like Backslash that takes 6 years to come out isn't a kill move because its impractical. If anything I'd say 130% is being generous unless we are talking throws.

 

[meleebrawler]

Kill throws are far more than "icing on the cake". They can make or break a character. See Ness. Mewtwo's other kill options being better are largely offset by shields and defence being better. A kill throw should be a massive advantage for him yet it cannot be used to its fullest potential because of his pathetic weight. He has this super reliable kill move but can't reliably build up the damage to use it because he dies so quickly.

The thing about Ness is that bthrow is his only reliable ground kill move. It's definitely more than icing for him, but that's not necessarily a good thing. The baseball bat is too slow to be reliable and his yoyos are decent but won't be killing at good percents without rage. Otherwise Ness generally has to get you into the air or land a PK Fire to seal the deal. When Ness's combos stop working at high percents people will realize sidestepping is quite safe to do against Ness when he closes in on the ground in terms of staying alive.

And as powerful as that throw is, it still depends somewhat on your positioning. Mewtwo's uthrow can be used wherever
and it only gets better if you use it on platforms.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

A good Mii Swordfighter can beat ANY sheik.

 

[Antonykun]

I thought 1111 swordfighter was pretty limited in neutral and has issues getting in to deal damage and set up kills? And I feel like Pikachu has a better off stage gimp game as good as the dair is.

kill power is not gimps
if gimps were kill power then pikachu would have the best kill power in smash by far.
Swordfighter, even 1111, has set ups into up air such as up tilt up air and down throw up air (ib4 someone says Hoo Hah)
can I take a moment to say that Swordfighter's up air would be one of the stupidest most broken moves in smash if it was given to someone who could actually abuse it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

kill power is not gimps
if gimps were kill power then pikachu would have the best kill power in smash by far.
Swordfighter, even 1111, has set ups into up air such as up tilt up air and down throw up air (ib4 someone says Hoo Hah)
can I take a moment to say that Swordfighter's up air would be one of the stupidest most broken moves in smash if it was given to someone who could actually abuse it.

Somehow I doubt that an eleven frame uair doesn't exactly scream broken to me.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

if gimps were kill power then pikachu would have the best kill power in smash by far.

Yeah this is pretty much what I'm getting at. People say that Pikachu has trouble closing stocks but he has respectable kill "power" on stage as well as the ability to kill with gimps very well against the majority of the roster. I personally don't think the inability to close stocks is a huge weakness for Pikachu.

By your definition swordfighter has better kill power though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can't just sit around in neutral and avoid Rosalina. Rosalina is almost always a threat in neutral because of luma warp. So it's not like you just wait for waft to charge and do nothing. That has to be accounted for almost always especially considering luma warp combos into to everything for her. I'm not too sure about the stuff you're talking about in terms of the bike but I'll keep it in mind. If I see Wario doing stuff by tthe ledge I will try to shot him or luma warp into things. The dynamics of course change without luma. But she has an answer sometimes.

Luma Warp involves a very specific distance; if I stay out of that area or have a hitbox ready in advance when I go to that spot (whichever is most appropriate for the situation), Luma still can't approach me from there, and then Rosalina has an even harder time approaching me or keeping me out, AND I get to harass Luma relatively safely with a Forward-B or Dash Attack.

I have no incentive to be in that area otherwise, so what makes you think I'd get caught off guard by it? Also, while we're on Customs, I'd use Rose-Scented Waft, which is enormous and just will not miss against Rosalina offstage (not that you should expect default Waft to, but, still). It charges faster and deals more damage. I also forgot to mention; while you have Luma attached to your hip, Waft lingers for an extra ~20 frames, so it makes my job of landing it easier even if you manage to get to the ledge; I don't even need my Bike to do that against Rosalina. I'd use Up-B3 to recover better/edgeguard further, but it doesn't have a place on any of the EVO sets, unfortunately. Normal Neutral-B and Forward-B do just fine.

 

[Shaya]

A little late, and it may be different with customs, but Rosalinas do tend to beat Sheiks pretty frequently (although the converse is probably common too). Piercing Needles probably change things up, but Will seems to mostly avoid going Sheik (could just be for the sake of evo) against Dabuz at this stage. Japan's Kirihara has a recent win on Nietono as well.

When I see it played out, Sheik's damage per hit/knock back really struggles to get Luma out of the picture, Rosa's transcended priority disjoints being great against limbs, Sheik being exceptionally light, etc.
When we look at what Sheik has in the match up.... piercing needles to hit through Luma on Rosa (although do they do much to Luma?), mobility and juggling. But any trade Rosalina puts onto Sheik has to be compensated by three times or more hits from Sheik. Her fall speed/specs make her one of the characters Rosa can combo/string better than most too.

We don't see Rosa losing to Sonic often. Sonic's priority issues seem like something Rosa would exploit. I'm guessing that Dabuz picking up Sonic for a few weeks a while back was probably due to some Sonic losses but NY results are way too hidden / hard to hear about which is a shame. Vegas has like 2-3 Sonic mains in their rankings and I believe Xero comes out well a lot of the time (at least he was).

In short "how can they be X in the game with Y losing match ups" when those losing match ups are likely not any more than 45:55s doesn't really matter to me, nor should it matter to you. Better players seem to come out on top a majority of the time. If you play a good character I really doubt you have anything worse than 40:60s in this game except maybe with customs in mind (mah balanced metagame~)

 

[san.]

Somehow I doubt that an eleven frame uair doesn't exactly scream broken to me.

16%, tons of range+disjoint, lasts 12 frames, autocancels 7 frames after the hitbox ends (on default, probably autocancels even earlier on shorter ones), and has a decent IASA.

Probably not the best overall uair since the fast 3-6 frame ones are generally more useful, but it's probably one of the best ones that can both combo and kill. Despite dealing 16%, knockback is only well above average instead of insane at least. You can even combo landing uair->uair from middle % well into kill %. Good luck ever landing a uair with that timing, though.

 

[Unknownkid]

Trela is at it again with Mii Swordfighter. He is in Grand Finals and will be playing the winner from this Losers' Finals...

www.twitch.tv/teamgreensleeves

Mind you, the stream is wonky...

Looks like they are going to finish Doubles first. Just stay tune or wait for the videos later.

 

[Blobface]

If you play a good character I really doubt you have anything worse than 40:60s in this game except maybe with customs in mind

Which customs do you think create worse-than-40:60 matchups?

 

[Ffamran]

Which customs do you think create worse-than-40:60 matchups?

Play Falco, fight Rosalina or Palutena, and add customs. Enjoy clawing at your brain when you sleep.

 

[Unknownkid]

Which customs do you think create worse-than-40:60 matchups?

Little Mac vs Wind Box maybe?

 

[Shaya]

Which customs do you think create worse-than-40:60 matchups?

Within the best characters? While I'm not certain, there could be ones that make Falcon, Luigi and Sonic's lives annoying enough. Kong Cyclone, Trip Sappling + related hijynx. But I wouldn't bet money on it.

Otherwise though, those aforementioned customs + Rosa, Brawler, maybe Sheik, maybe Pika, maybe Fox could be turning near-evens within the high tier area into distinctive advantages one way or another and perhaps produce bigger skews towards the middle or lower regions of the cast. However, how can you be certain?

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon's up b always grabs Kong Cyclone before Falcon takes a hit provided you start it when you're not inside the cyclone. Not sure about Villager nonsense but I'd think a 17 frame meteor that you don't have to jump for which kills at 50% poses some threat to the stalling strat, and jab shuts down all ledge getup options except roll. Trip sapling itself can be annoying but it doesn't really make things harder for Falcon as much as it slows down the pace of the match. Villager literally can't do anything to a hit & run Falcon.

 

[Blobface]

I honestly think this whole "do some crazy strategy to beat Kong Cyclone" is part of why some people find it so frustrating. Speaking from personal experience, you really don't need to focus on Kong Cyclone that much. Like you can outright hit him out of a successful hit depending on how he pulls you in among other factors (made a post about this, will link later because tablet). Even if you don't have enough frames to hit him you can always air dodge, which is IIRC frame 3.

Edit: here it is

None of these were 100% consistent, so think of them as general rules.

• Getting hit from the side gives little frame advantage
• Getting hit from below gave me enough frame advantage to land Ganon's F6 U-air
• Getting hit from above gave me so much Frame advantage my U-air wound up hitting his armor
• All of these are dependent on how DK is moving. The more he moves, the more frame advantage you have. The less he moves, the less frame advantage you have.

So if I were to rag on Kong Cyclone for anything (which I wouldn't), it'd be the its pseudo-randomness rather than it's actual strength.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

How are Luigi's bouncing fireballs vs the custom Villager's stalling? Has anyone tried that? They can be sent at a pretty low angle off the stage.

 

[Blobface]

Oh, and while I'm at it, Custom Villager stalling.

I think something that's misunderstood about this tactic is why it's successful. It beats players not characters. Literally every character in the game can deal with this strategy, but only if they're played properly. Playing properly in this scenario requires you're calm and levelheaded. Nobody ever lost to this strategy because their character couldn't deal with it, they lost because they got impatient and rushed in to their deaths.

With that said, whether a player counter is worse than a character counter is debatable.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Luma Warp involves a very specific distance; if I stay out of that area or have a hitbox ready in advance when I go to that spot (whichever is most appropriate for the situation), Luma still can't approach me from there, and then Rosalina has an even harder time approaching me or keeping me out, AND I get to harass Luma relatively safely with a Forward-B or Dash Attack.

I have no incentive to be in that area otherwise, so what makes you think I'd get caught off guard by it? Also, while we're on Customs, I'd use Rose-Scented Waft, which is enormous and just will not miss against Rosalina offstage (not that you should expect default Waft to, but, still). It charges faster and deals more damage. I also forgot to mention; while you have Luma attached to your hip, Waft lingers for an extra ~20 frames, so it makes my job of landing it easier even if you manage to get to the ledge; I don't even need my Bike to do that against Rosalina. I'd use Up-B3 to recover better/edgeguard further, but it doesn't have a place on any of the EVO sets, unfortunately. Normal Neutral-B and Forward-B do just fine.

I think up B 3 is the wrong one to use in the MU you just get spiked if you have to recover low. If you're using Rose waft that should be enough for the edgeguard. The threat from luma warp forces you to either retreat or approach. If you're staying grounded laser especially if you have speed bike. I don't really have to luma warp just have the threat of it to gorce Wario to do something. You can always powershield the laser. But that's not really doing much for either of us. But you gotta worry more about rosalina from the other side of the screen as opposed to vice versa. But it's definitely an interesting MU. You probably have tons of experience in it because of Dangr. Since I haven't really played the MU too much I'll concede.

A little late, and it may be different with customs, but Rosalinas do tend to beat Sheiks pretty frequently (although the converse is probably common too). Piercing Needles probably change things up, but Will seems to mostly avoid going Sheik (could just be for the sake of evo) against Dabuz at this stage. Japan's Kirihara has a recent win on Nietono as well.

When I see it played out, Sheik's damage per hit/knock back really struggles to get Luma out of the picture, Rosa's transcended priority disjoints being great against limbs, Sheik being exceptionally light, etc.
When we look at what Sheik has in the match up.... piercing needles to hit through Luma on Rosa (although do they do much to Luma?), mobility and juggling. But any trade Rosalina puts onto Sheik has to be compensated by three times or more hits from Sheik. Her fall speed/specs make her one of the characters Rosa can combo/string better than most too.

We don't see Rosa losing to Sonic often. Sonic's priority issues seem like something Rosa would exploit. I'm guessing that Dabuz picking up Sonic for a few weeks a while back was probably due to some Sonic losses but NY results are way too hidden / hard to hear about which is a shame. Vegas has like 2-3 Sonic mains in their rankings and I believe Xero comes out well a lot of the time (at least he was).

In short "how can they be X in the game with Y losing match ups" when those losing match ups are likely not any more than 45:55s doesn't really matter to me, nor should it matter to you. Better players seem to come out on top a majority of the time. If you play a good character I really doubt you have anything worse than 40:60s in this game except maybe with customs in mind (mah balanced metagame~)

I remember dabuz saying every shiek is playing the MU wrong and the only shiek that knew the MU was nietono. I'm not the greatest rosalina in the world but I struggle with shiek quite a bit. Maybe it's how I'm approaching the MU but it's pretty rough. Pre-patch I think the difdu mu was 65 35 now it maybe 6-4 rosalina really can't deal with diddy. Dabuz picked up Sonic for Rosalina's poor matches. He felt sonic would get nerfed the least outta the top tiers. Getting back to shiek fair is really hard to deal with as is her mobility and her edgeguard and how fast het moves come out. It's just a pain all around IMO.

16%, tons of range+disjoint, lasts 12 frames, autocancels 7 frames after the hitbox ends (on default, probably autocancels even earlier on shorter ones), and has a decent IASA.

Probably not the best overall uair since the fast 3-6 frame ones are generally more useful, but it's probably one of the best ones that can both combo and kill. Despite dealing 16%, knockback is only well above average instead of insane at least. You can even combo landing uair->uair from middle % well into kill %. Good luck ever landing a uair with that timing, though.

Ah I see I know very little about mii swordfighter. So it's a bit strange to hear the hype. Just looking at the frame data doesn't lend me to think that much about. But the more you know I guess. Thanks for the info.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think up B 3 is the wrong one to use in the MU you just get spiked if you have to recover low. If you're using Rose waft that should be enough for the edgeguard. The threat from luma warp forces you to either retreat or approach. If you're staying grounded laser especially if you have speed bike. I don't really have to luma warp just have the threat of it to gorce Wario to do something. You can always powershield the laser. But that's not really doing much for either of us. But you gotta worry more about rosalina from the other side of the screen as opposed to vice versa. But it's definitely an interesting MU. You probably have tons of experience in it because of Dangr. Since I haven't really played the MU too much I'll concede.

The extra speed and height of Up-B3 makes it easier to vary the timing/distance for when you use it, and it allows you to go deeper for edgeguards as well as save your Bike to make recovery easier overall and hits off the Bike less devastating.

Wario can shield and roll against Luma Warp if he needs to, but since Rosalina isn't doing anything from that distance, you can react quickly just by watching for the one threatening thing to happen. You're not standing in place; you're constantly jumping around with Wario, so having a prime situation to Luma Warp should be rare. Playing around it often makes it easier for me to eliminate Luma as a threat, since Rosalina can have a hard time protecting Luma from Wario in that scenario.

I've played DanGR a decent bit, as well as Neos and Gadiel_VaStar in GA a whole lot. Jester Kirby from TN a couple of times, too. I have my fair share of experience against Rosalina and I'm confident in that.

 

[Magik0722]

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/5099318?t=373m0s
I recently played against a rosalina in tournament as well, its not a matchup I've had trouble with yet.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The extra speed and height of Up-B3 makes it easier to vary the timing/distance for when you use it, and it allows you to go deeper for edgeguards as well as save your Bike to make recovery easier overall and hits off the Bike less devastating.

Wario can shield and roll against Luma Warp if he needs to, but since Rosalina isn't doing anything from that distance, you can react quickly just by watching for the one threatening thing to happen. You're not standing in place; you're constantly jumping around with Wario, so having a prime situation to Luma Warp should be rare. Playing around it often makes it easier for me to eliminate Luma as a threat, since Rosalina can have a hard time protecting Luma from Wario in that scenario.

I've played DanGR a decent bit, as well as Neos and Gadiel_VaStar in GA a whole lot. Jester Kirby from TN a couple of times, too. I have my fair share of experience against Rosalina and I'm confident in that.

Well this is what people used to tell me in brawl. You have to land eventually. So using luma warp as a landing trap is possible I think same with laser. If you watch dabuz he'll do luma warp and dash grab afterwards. I'm not sure if it's because the opponent is sitting in shield or not but it's definitely something tgat seems to work. Also luma warp is 14 frames IDK if you can actually react to it. (13 framesis supposed to be the fastest reaction speed). But it's not like there's a way you can tell when the move is coming. You have to predict it.

Hmmm I didn't watch that tournament but apparently boss lost Luigi dittos to OCS James. That's pretty interesting seems like South Jersey is pretty strong.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You're watching for Rosalina to stop moving, not for Luma to reappear, and if she's standing in place the area where Luma would reappear is obvious and easily avoidable. Predicting it is not hard in such a situation.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You're watching for Rosalina to stop moving, not for Luma to reappear, and if she's standing in place the area where Luma would reappear is obvious and easily avoidable. Predicting it is not hard in such a situation.

Hmmm I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh, and while I'm at it, Custom Villager stalling.

I think something that's misunderstood about this tactic is why it's successful. It beats players not characters. Literally every character in the game can deal with this strategy, but only if they're played properly. Playing properly in this scenario requires you're calm and levelheaded. Nobody ever lost to this strategy because their character couldn't deal with it, they lost because they got impatient and rushed in to their deaths.

With that said, whether a player counter is worse than a character counter is debatable.

Played Dissent in a friendly last month. Custom Villager vs Custom Marth. I had on Dolphin Jump. No hit box but goes twice as high so you are basically a god of the sky. He tried to camp. I just ran off and started swinging my sword. Eventually he was around 50%. I did a ledge trump and then acted as if I was going to attack. He went for the ledge and ate a tipper f-smash for his trouble and died.

His next stock he proceeded to the ledge to camp. I moved Marth to the opposite ledge and the Hero-King kept brushing his air out of his eyes and letting out deep sighs. This continued for maybe 30 seconds. Dissent then asks me, "Aren't you going to approach?"

I say "No. Why would I? I'm winning."

His response, " Dude...you are smart"

People just need to stop jumping into the **** like morons.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

People need to stop getting ledge trumped, more like. That should -never- happen.

Also, isn't the opponent being on the opposite side of the stage generally ideal for normal Villager play?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I seriously wish that that match was recorded @ Emblem Lord .

 

[Emblem Lord]

People need to stop getting ledge trumped, more like. That should -never- happen.

If your entire focus is to regrab the ledge and try to camp, then yes you set yourself up to be trumped.

So what you are saying is kinda moot within the context of this event.

I still love you though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If your entire focus is to regrab the ledge and try to camp, then yes you set yourself up to be trumped.

So what you are saying is kinda moot within the context of this event.

I still love you though.

I disagree; you're stuck on the ledge for about a third of a second no matter what (on top of the time immediately before you grab the ledge), during which you can analyze the situation and react with a buffered Ledge Roll/Ledge Jump/Ledge Attack if they're in a position where they could potentially take the ledge from you before you can get off it normally.

You know what your character is/will be doing; all your focus should be on the opponent. Even if your opponent is making it ambiguous, the relative safety between ledge options is usually safe enough where if you have any doubt, you can press one randomly and be untouched most of the time. An attack to punish ledge snaps seems far more reliable to curb this tactic than ledge trumping, since if the opponent buffers a ledge option every time, it is literally impossible to ledge trump them.

EDIT: Also, in the event that you're trying to bait Villager post-trump so you can get a bigger punish than an aerial, he can stall his fall with Pushy Lloid and use it to cover his landing/next ledge grab pretty effectively.

I agree that playing into the hands of a ledge-camping Villager is a poor decision being made by some people, but I was arguing that there's a lot of counterplay to your scenario that was not used by said Villager.