Character Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

If I attacked I would have hit fire balloons and ate damage. I only attacked when I was underneath and in that situation where I got the trump. I didn't just randomly trump him. When you play someone both players are constantly conditioning each other. I hadnt attempted a trump in all our matches or the tournament set we played that day. There was no reason for him to think I would trump.

That said, yes ledge options are relatively safe. You can mix them up and pretty much never have to worry too much about being punished.

 

[FullMoon]

His next stock he proceeded to the ledge to camp. I moved Marth to the opposite ledge and the Hero-King kept brushing his air out of his eyes and letting out deep sighs. This continued for maybe 30 seconds. Dissent then asks me, "Aren't you going to approach?"

I say "No. Why would I? I'm winning."

His response, " Dude...you are smart"

People just need to stop jumping into the **** like morons.

I played against a custom Villager myself yesterday and yeah I didn't even bother fighting once I got a lead and just waited things out.

Though in the second match I had I ended SDing and losing my first stock so I was forced to go after Villager if I had any hopes to win, still managed to win the match though.

People try way too hard to be aggressive in this game sometimes. If you have a lead against a Villager camping just stay on the other side of the stage and let him camp until the time runs out if he doesn't try to approach, it's super tedious but a lot less frustrating than trying to go after him.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hey guys, I'm just curious what people think of two characters right now in the meta game.

Can I have your thoughts on Olimar?

and

Can I have your thoughts on Little Mac?

These two have just had me thinking a bit lately on how and where they fit. If at all possible, assuming vanilla Smash 4 please.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Solid counter pick chars.

Don't have enough juice to do it on their own.

 

[Yonder]

Alright guys, we have a member named Jamez that is on our Luigi boards. He's not that well heard of as far as I know...but watch him. He defeated Boss in Luigi dittos every single time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfcsA2ORKbA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qyu0Su_u1E


Oh, quick>floating missile and helicopter kick is a BS move [my saltiness from the tourney I went to yesterday...]

 

[mimgrim]

Alright guys, we have a member named Jamez that is on our Luigi boards. He's not that well heard of as far as I know...but watch him. He defeated Boss in Luigi dittos every single time.

Dittos don't mean anything in terms of who is better at said character.

They just determine who is better at that particular MU at that particular time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Little Mac is very volatile. I think that as his very extreme numbers get broken down to a science, he'll get better over time and start to improve in ways that mitigate his significant weaknesses. He has many underutilized tools and situations he can have greater control over if his players respond to certain things better. He mostly plays in an "if x, y" manner that is very oppressive and powerful while having enough burst range and power to make thinking outside of the box pay off in a big way, too.

The real problem as it is is that there are multiple characters who can, as it is, string him off the stage relatively easily off of small reads, and that's been pretty devastating to his use as a whole, considering how those characters tend to be among the best in the game.

Thankfully, the numbers suggest that his ability to prevent even those small reads from letting opponents convert is higher than is currently happening. He's only going to get better in neutral, and that's the key to mitigating the biggest issues he has. If there is more optimal (S)DI on some of these F-Air strings and throw follow-ups that make them less powerful against Little Mac, that would help a lot, too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel certain chars just play on his weaknesses so much.

HOWEVER, he simply CANNOT be challenged during footsies. You WILL get MAULED!!! His mobility, damage, range and armor properties make him a true terror at nuetral. His presence on the ground alone instills fear and respect in his opponent. People fight him differently and for good reason. He just hits too hard and too fast. Period.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Mac has always been an all or none character. But several matchups, most notably ROB and Rosalina among others, give the guy too hard of a time for him to be used effectivly as a solo main. But eventually, I only see him going up as far as tiers go.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Mac has always been an all or none character. But several matchups, most notably ROB and Rosalina among others, give the guy too hard of a time for him to be used effectivly as a solo main. But eventually, I only see him going up as far as tiers go.

It's funny because as a Rosalina player, I tend to fall apart against Little Macs who don't just spam dash attack all day. (I have problems dealing with fast characters in general though.)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I feel certain chars just play on his weaknesses so much.

HOWEVER, he simply CANNOT be challenged during footsies. You WILL get MAULED!!! His mobility, damage, range and armor properties make him a true terror at nuetral. His presence on the ground alone instills fear and respect in his opponent. People fight him differently and for good reason. He just hits too hard and too fast. Period.

I also think that Mac is really good at keeping people off the stage by establishing his presence at the edge. He's fast enough, button-wise and mobility-wise, to cover so many different options.

Smooth Criminal

 

[thehard]

Mac has always been an all or none character. But several matchups, most notably ROB and Rosalina among others, give the guy too hard of a time for him to be used effectivly as a solo main. But eventually, I only see him going up as far as tiers go.

Speaking of ROB... A lot of ROBs placed highly this weekend. 8BitMan got 3rd at the 120-man VS EVO tournament (top placings got plane tickets to EVO [yay ESAM]), Gyo got 4th at DBA, Holy beat ALLY in GFs at EGL. (Even if Ally gave up the first set by going Marth lol)

 

[Mr. Johan]

Mac I feel also can go places in Doubles, particularly with a partner with quick, spanning, and low-risk interrupting moves like Spin Dash and Speed Thunder and whatnot.

Mac gets saved from attack strings by those moves, and in return, Mac can go guns blazing across the stage and armor his way through attacks no one is going to be spacing and timing perfectly 100% of the time in a doubles match and kill at 110. Just make sure Mac's partner can save him from gimps.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mac's in the unfortunate position of being both a specialist character that requires a particular skillset and a ton of time investment to master, and being a character whose hard counters make him only really usable as a counterpick character, which means in practice he'll be too much work to be worth using to cover a few specific MUs, especially because he doesn't work well as a CP for characters like Sheik and Rosa who cause problems for so much of the cast. He does OK against characters like Sonic, Fox, and Falcon, which are definitely ones some characters need help with, but most characters who hate those MUs also hate Sheik and would want someone who can hold up against her too as a secondary. It's an unfortunate combination of factors that mean Mac probably won't be worthwhile to invest in from a competitive perspective.

 

[bc1910]

I think Mac and Olimar are both really good. A good Mac can be terrifying, his attacks are just... so good. And good luck trying to grab a good Mac at all, let alone get them with a Bthrow near the ledge.

Olimar seems very similar to Brawlimar to me, only a bit weaker and with less Pikmin (way better recovery though). Who does Olimar lose to in this game, does anyone know? Actually, could anyone tell me some of his weaknesses in general? He always seems very good whenever I fight him or use him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Olimar Forward-B is so much more annoying in this game. Harder to get them off of you, and they cause hitlag on your that doesn't stop your moves, effectively mucking up your frame data and making you move more slowly.

 

[Ffamran]

Olimar Forward-B is so much more annoying in this game. Harder to get them off of you, and they cause hitlag on your that doesn't stop your moves, effectively mucking up your frame data and making you move more slowly.

Doesn't it also mess with some moves like Bouncing Fish?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well ya'll covered Mac well, but barely talked Olimar!

So hows about some focus on Oli?

While I'm at it, I'll bring up someone else. Howe's Pit/Dark Pit looking these days?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Does Mac Even Beat default Donkey Kong?

 

[bc1910]

Doesn't it also mess with some moves like Bouncing Fish?

Not sure on Bouncing Fish but I know they mess with projectiles. They block Samus' fully charged Charge Shot if they're attached to her front which is pretty funny.

I recall Bouncing Fish forcing Sheik to bounce back after she kicks because the game registers her as hitting something, even though she only hit a Pikmin. I could be totally wrong on this though.

 

[mimgrim]

Well ya'll covered Mac well, but barely talked Olimar!

So hows about some focus on Oli?

All I can say on Oli is I don't like how he feels in this game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Speaking of ROB... A lot of ROBs placed highly this weekend. 8BitMan got 3rd at the 120-man VS EVO tournament (top placings got plane tickets to EVO [yay ESAM]), Gyo got 4th at DBA, Holy beat ALLY in GFs at EGL. (Even if Ally gave up the first set by going Marth lol)

A few hundred pages back I said ROB had a lot of things going for him. I never used him pre-patch but he's always seemed real solid to me. High tier for sure, in my book. Most people shot that plane out of the sky though, because all they could think about was the u-throw nerf. He's my secondary now.

Does Mac Even Beat default Donkey Kong?

I can't say, as I have no expirience with a decent Little Mac, but I would think it's either even or slightly in Mac's favor, due to his better neutral and approach options. However, it depends on how patient the Mac is, because DK's Back throw has enough base knockback to set up an easy gimp at 5%, and his edgeguarding game is above average with Bair and Nair's lasting hitboxes.
But again, I don't have experience in this matchup. The best little Mac I've played got walled out by hand slap and SD'd twice because I'm guessing he forgot Side special was a thing.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I can't say, as I have no expirience with a decent Little Mac, but I would think it's either even or slightly in Mac's favor, due to his better neutral and approach options. However, it depends on how patient the Mac is, because DK's Back throw has enough base knockback to set up an easy gimp at 5%, and his edgeguarding game is above average with Bair and Nair's lasting hitboxes.
But again, I don't have experience in this matchup. The best little Mac I've played got walled out by hand slap and SD'd twice because I'm guessing he forgot Side special was a thing.

dk can reset to ledge with jump and/or up-b if he takes a hit, dk juggles mac easily, dk straight out kills mac really early even without gimps, both down and up-b pwn mac, combined with f-tilt it makes the neutral bearable afaik then we have the gimps on top of that

on a sidenote I think Mac is an awfully designed character, he's not fun to watch or play with or against or anything at all really, too polarized

 

[Zionaze]

Everytime i use mac on for glory the match either ends with a KO punch or me getting gimped 2wice

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Little Mac reminds me of Melee Jigglypuff in that sense.

 

[thehard]

I think Little Mac is ingeniously designed ;_;

 

[TheReflexWonder]

DK's Down-B hitboxes are ground-only, but they "hit" a decent way up, almost at DK's eye height and at the same range and almost at the same horizontal distance as the normal range is. This is presumably to make sure that opponents on slopes are affected, but Counters are affected by these upraised hitboxes even if the user is in the air.

This generally doesn't matter against most of them because they don't have a lot of range, but Mac dashes forward after his Down-B is activated, allowing him to hit DK from a ways away for 18% when he does it. This means that even at low percents (where a successful Mac Forward-B would be punishable on hit), DK Down-B is not a very safe method of spacing. Mac's Counter is also affected by Rage by an extreme amount, so if Mac is at 90+%, it starts outright KOing DK at about 90% or lower.

 

[Trunks159]

One of the problems with Mac is the available collection of legal stages. On Battlefield, Town and City, Smashville, and Duckhunt, platform camping is a thing.

 

[Dabuz]

Every time I come into this thread, Olimar is being talked about. Also, he's like, barely viable, really just loses to Shiek horribly and struggles with Disjoint characters(Swords), same old same old. Mac is solid but can win or lose matches pretty erratically.

 

[PUK]

Mac is ok on BF, Lylat, but yeah he sucks on smashville

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Town and City is one of Mac's best stages, actually. The platforms are only there for half of the time, and the other half just turns the stage into Final Destination with a lower ceiling. The platforms give him a bit of flexibility when he's recovering, and sometimes you can get cheesy Up-B KOs at low percents if someone approaches you wrong near the platforms there.

Duck Hunt should've been banned a while ago, and it is my hope that it goes away in time. In the meantime, though, as a Wario player, I -dare- you to take me to one of the levels that frustrates Mac.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

DK's Down-B hitboxes are ground-only, but they "hit" a decent way up, almost at DK's eye height and at the same range and almost at the same horizontal distance as the normal range is. This is presumably to make sure that opponents on slopes are affected, but Counters are affected by these upraised hitboxes even if the user is in the air.

This generally doesn't matter against most of them because they don't have a lot of range, but Mac dashes forward after his Down-B is activated, allowing him to hit DK from a ways away for 18% when he does it. This means that even at low percents (where a successful Mac Forward-B would be punishable on hit), DK Down-B is not a very safe method of spacing. Mac's Counter is also affected by Rage by an extreme amount, so if Mac is at 90+%, it starts outright KOing DK at about 90% or lower.

Speaking of DK's down special, Luma is completely immune to the ground version.

 

[Nobie]

I played against a custom Villager myself yesterday and yeah I didn't even bother fighting once I got a lead and just waited things out.

Though in the second match I had I ended SDing and losing my first stock so I was forced to go after Villager if I had any hopes to win, still managed to win the match though.

People try way too hard to be aggressive in this game sometimes. If you have a lead against a Villager camping just stay on the other side of the stage and let him camp until the time runs out if he doesn't try to approach, it's super tedious but a lot less frustrating than trying to go after him.

It seems like a desire to go ham is a characteristic at all levels of play, as you'll also frequently see For Glory players complaining about having to wait and bait, or about the inability to "properly" follow up.

 

[Kofu]

Also, isn't the opponent being on the opposite side of the stage generally ideal for normal Villager play?

Not really. Villager has the tools to keep people out but lackluster ones for approaching. His only long-distance projectile is default Lloid Rocket, which goes from 7% to 5% at a distance. It's also slow moving with significant startup and only one can be out st a time. It also dies to almost every attack (despite its supposed 12% HP, which instead only functions before it starts moving) including projectiles. Villager is hard to camp but he can't really camp either. If anything he's a mid-range fighter who mainly wants space to set up traps so he can go in and deal some real damage.

 

[Trifroze]

The combination of having nothing that is safe on shield (no, not even dtilt), a bad disadvantage, being able to do nothing with platforms and usually dying from one grab or hit near the ledge at any percent isn't an ignorable set of weaknesses. His moves are extremely fast and strong but when you can just get in mid range and shield + punish anything he does and then kill him before he gets the KO punch his strengths don't help him at all. Mac kinda dies to patient play while wrecking aggressive styles, but there's no reason to ever do the latter versus him.

Hell, even Ganondorf has usmash, fair and on taller characters bair which are safe on shield. He doesn't die offstage instantly, can edgeguard well, and kills earlier than Mac.

 

[the king of murder]

The combination of having nothing that is safe on shield (no, not even dtilt), a bad disadvantage, being able to do nothing with platforms and usually dying from one grab or hit near the ledge at any percent isn't an ignorable set of weaknesses. His moves are extremely fast and strong but when you can just get in mid range and shield + punish anything he does and then kill him before he gets the KO punch his strengths don't help him at all. Mac kinda dies to patient play while wrecking aggressive styles, but there's no reason to ever do the latter versus him.

Hell, even Ganondorf has usmash, fair and on taller characters bair which are safe on shield. He doesn't die offstage instantly, can edgeguard well, and kills earlier than Mac.

Wait, isnt his FSmash safe on shield? I know I can punish his other moves on block but his FSmash definitely feels safe. Maybe it's just me playing slow characters like Ike, Robin and Ganon though.

 

[Charls]

/? Well their meta isn't advancing much, but it never really has. They aren't very popular characters while our only top player representation is Nairo here in the states and Earth over in Japan. Besides them only @CHOMPY and a guy called Requiem we have in our local scene come to mind. I feel like our board just doesn't have as many dedicated mains as others, but honestly that comes off a bit hypocritical and it's not like our players are lacking the motivation to better themselves either.

They have a diverse toolkit, solid frame data, good range... Things we all know already, basically. Pits could try to implement a few things like upwards Palutena Bow which allows a little air pressure while approaching, Nair for edgeguarding (or heck, edgeguarding in general), RAR Dair, Upperdash/Electrodash cancels for recovery, Arrow Dancing/Shifting to bait airdodges, Dthrow > Uair > regrab at low %s and so on, but I don't really see it right now. Most Pits I watch are content with Dthrow > Uair/Fair, roll into Dsmash, the occasional arrow, and Dash Attacks all day.

 

[Solreth]

In regards to macs viability, I definitely think we're seeing a lot of growth and room. Contrary to popular opinion I actually think he requires a ton of technical finesse to execute on a competitive level. Perfect pivot up tilts, jump cancelled specials, frame perfect gazelle punches (momentum cancel ko from the ledge jump option), boost grabbing to compensate for his atrocious grab range. Anyhow, I think he needs revisited as his competitive viability becomes more explored. I made a montage, give it a look and let me know if you like it, at the least it should serve to entertain (and show some interesting tech).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTZWa-toKaI

 

[wedl!!]

considering is the "polarizing character" (in a completely different sense to //), who does he even beat? the only extremely good mu he has in my book is , and his mu isn't as bad as it might seem (he still doesn't win it).

 

[Blue Banana]

Olimar seems very similar to Brawlimar to me, only a bit weaker and with less Pikmin (way better recovery though). Who does Olimar lose to in this game, does anyone know? Actually, could anyone tell me some of his weaknesses in general? He always seems very good whenever I fight him or use him.

Olimar has low priority on every attack involving Pikmin; he cannot challenge aerials or try to trade with other attacks because he'll lose nearly every one of them. Reflectors make the Olimar player more wary to throw out smashes as a zoning tool or risk getting KO'd early. None of his attacks are particularly fast--his fastest attack, Jab, comes out on frame 4, compared to the various frame 3 jabs that most characters have--so characters that have fast frame data and close the distance between them and Olimar are particularly dangerous.

I don't have enough experience to say how viable he is in tournaments, just enough to know his basic strengths and weaknesses.