Character Competitive Impressions

[Asdioh]

This is the problem with customs, giving some characters extremely overpowered individual moves that admittedly weren't designed with balance in mind, and thus increasing the balance gap between the worst and the best characters in the game while people argue that customs improve it.

(and any other spikes that couldn't be meteor canceled, etc.)

Remember how hype these moves are? I would be willing to bet that they would be less celebrated if Melee used a 2 stock ruleset instead of a 4 stock one. I think the perceived problem of "OP" customs is exacerbated by our 2 stock ruleset, and if we had 3 stock as a standard, people would feel less "cheated" if they died early to the strong moves. Besides, I'm still not convinced that the strong customs that high tiers get outweigh the benefits of the ones lower tiers get. Like, we saw Heavy Skull Bash being used to great effect, but you also need to remember that 1. It's Esam and 2. How much practice did his opponents have against a good Pikachu using the move?

I'm just curious to see what happens, since I have a strong feeling there will be at least a few balance changes in the Lucas patch, so I wouldn't be surprised to see if some of the customs we keep seeing in the limelight get nerfed before Evo.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Remember how hype these moves are?

I don't, actually.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

That still leaves Pikachu losing to 49 characters though. When claiming someone isn't bad at something in this game, you're claiming they are better at it than a good portion of the cast. People just often forget that latter part, which is particularly apparent in many "this character is at least mid tier" comments.

In the default meta, I would say Pikachu has noticeably better killing ability than , , ,,, and .

He has at least marginally better killing ability than , , ,, and .

He has about the same ease of killing as /, , , and .

He does not lose to 49 characters in terms of KO ability. He has plenty of tools for kill setups and gimps that appear to be completely slept on at this point. If this and the light weight are all that we can come up with as weaknesses for Pikachu, he's obviously top tier. Legitimately everything else about Pikachu is extremely good: he has great frame data on top of good range with some disjoints, he has great combos and damage output, he brutalizes people off stage, he has a very small hurtbox and an amazing recovery while being good at disadvantage, he can go for a reasonable reward without having to take a comparable risk, he is very non linear and unpredictable, and he generally has more control over the flow of the match than his opponent due to his incredible mobility and his very solid, very versatile neutral game.

Again, his only real weakness in my eyes is his high execution barrier.

 

[Hippieslayer]

great, no smash 4 stream at revelation 2 thanks to MVG, jesus christ if you say youre gonna stream it you friggin do it lol

 

[Cassio]

@ TheReflexWonder I would say that a good ness will use the tail as well as tricky movement to make it difficult to avoid. I feel like its either faster or has more mobility in brawl, where it can actually be pretty difficult to avoid getting hit by the tail. In any case, Im certain its strength in this is better then brawl for whatever reason.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The tail itself only does 1%, though. Does it consistently link into the orb hit?

 

[Djent]

So HSB is gonna win EVO?

Nah. ESAM still hasn't unlocked everything this character has to offer, and I kind of think he's behind after taking it easy for a few months. He could do it on talent alone, but his character is less developed than // which (at this point) is a problem.

Also, his weakness will be exploited once EVO Champion CPU returns from his slumber.

He does not lose to 49 characters in terms of KO ability. He has plenty of tools for kill setups and gimps that appear to be completely slept on at this point. If this and the light weight are all that we can come up with as weaknesses for Pikachu, he's obviously top tier. Legitimately everything else about Pikachu is extremely good: he has great frame data on top of good range with some disjoints, he has great combos and damage output, he brutalizes people off stage, he has a very small hurtbox and an amazing recovery while being good at disadvantage, he can go for a reasonable reward without having to take a comparable risk, he is very non linear and unpredictable, and he generally has more control over the flow of the match than his opponent due to his incredible mobility and his very solid, very versatile neutral game.

I agree with all of this,

Again, his only real weakness in my eyes is his high execution barrier.

except this. His execution barrier isn't even that high. NAKAT's pocket Chu took out Mr. R & JTails' pocket Chu beat ADHD's . Neither of those occurrences scream "execution barrier." Who exactly is picking this character up and struggling because he's too hard to play? People are more held back by the fact that (at least during ESAM's absence), he had no top player whose strategies they could easily copy. It's a creativity problem, and once that gets solved, the Age of the Ninja will come to an end.

 

[PUK]

In the default meta, I would say Pikachu has noticeably better killing ability than , , ,,, and .

He has at least marginally better killing ability than , , ,, and .

He has about the same ease of killing as /, , , and .

He does not lose to 49 characters in terms of KO ability. He has plenty of tools for kill setups and gimps that appear to be completely slept on at this point. If this and the light weight are all that we can come up with as weaknesses for Pikachu, he's obviously top tier. Legitimately everything else about Pikachu is extremely good: he has great frame data on top of good range with some disjoints, he has great combos and damage output, he brutalizes people off stage, he has a very small hurtbox and an amazing recovery while being good at disadvantage, he can go for a reasonable reward without having to take a comparable risk, he is very non linear and unpredictable, and he generally has more control over the flow of the match than his opponent due to his incredible mobility and his very solid, very versatile neutral game.

Again, his only real weakness in my eyes is his high execution barrier.

I could be dumb but saying pikachu has better kill ability than WFT seems strange given the fact that she has among the best kill ability of the game with DB active.
And i'm not mentionning zelda's mention without marth right next to her. Or villager and pac man next to MK.
So what is killig ability exactly?

 

[Cassio]

The tail itself only does 1%, though. Does it consistently link into the orb hit?

It feels like it, probably cause of the electric effect. I havent done extensive testing on it or anything though.

Also I think pika should be fairly tech intensive, but hes still pretty good in a simple way too. Its funny that Nakats two week old pika beat Mr. R but ESAM lost to Zex a week or so before. Sometimes I feel ESAM gets caught up in his Brawl style and misses stuff smash 4 pika has too offer (for instance, Nakat had no issue with Bair OOS and it helped him a lot, but ESAM rarely does this. In brawl it wasnt nearly as useful).

Also I swear sheik struggles against punishing good frolls whenever I see her.

 

[Trifroze]

(and any other spikes that couldn't be meteor canceled, etc.)

Remember how hype these moves are? I would be willing to bet that they would be less celebrated if Melee used a 2 stock ruleset instead of a 4 stock one. I think the perceived problem of "OP" customs is exacerbated by our 2 stock ruleset, and if we had 3 stock as a standard, people would feel less "cheated" if they died early to the strong moves. Besides, I'm still not convinced that the strong customs that high tiers get outweigh the benefits of the ones lower tiers get. Like, we saw Heavy Skull Bash being used to great effect, but you also need to remember that 1. It's Esam and 2. How much practice did his opponents have against a good Pikachu using the move?

I'm just curious to see what happens, since I have a strong feeling there will be at least a few balance changes in the Lucas patch, so I wouldn't be surprised to see if some of the customs we keep seeing in the limelight get nerfed before Evo.

My scene does play with 3 stocks though and I don't think moves like this in Melee are hype. It may be fun for some people to watch one player being comboed for 80% with little or no chance of escape and then finished with an op move or gimped because no one has a decent recovery, but I'm a player more than a viewer and appreciate mindgames and neutral more than stuff like this.

In the default meta, I would say Pikachu has noticeably better killing ability than , , ,,, and .

He has at least marginally better killing ability than , , ,, and .

He has about the same ease of killing as /, , , and .

He does not lose to 49 characters in terms of KO ability. He has plenty of tools for kill setups and gimps that appear to be completely slept on at this point. If this and the light weight are all that we can come up with as weaknesses for Pikachu, he's obviously top tier. Legitimately everything else about Pikachu is extremely good: he has great frame data on top of good range with some disjoints, he has great combos and damage output, he brutalizes people off stage, he has a very small hurtbox and an amazing recovery while being good at disadvantage, he can go for a reasonable reward without having to take a comparable risk, he is very non linear and unpredictable, and he generally has more control over the flow of the match than his opponent due to his incredible mobility and his very solid, very versatile neutral game.

Again, his only real weakness in my eyes is his high execution barrier.

I didn't claim he loses to 49 characters, I concluded it as a response to your post. He definitely doesn't kill faster than Diddy, pretty much all of Diddy's aerials are better at killing than Pikachu's and he has more reliable setups to smashes from bananas and dtilt and a strong back throw, while Sheik is worse than Pikachu at killing on the ground but better in the air. Pikachu certainly doesn't kill better than Sonic who's usmash, fsmash and bair are all very strong and back throw decent. ROB is also better or about equal if only because of his uair setups and uthrow if all else fails, although his nair, bair and usmash are also good. Meta Knight kills very easily and definitely better than Pikachu, his up b kills at 100% from the ground and he has easy guaranteed setup into it from dash attack. Dimension Cape kills even earlier than that and so does fsmash which is one of the ~5 smashes in the game that are safe on every character's shield. His bair and nair are also decently strong and so is back throw, while uthrow gets the job done quicker than Pikachu's does. I would also say WFT is about the same as Pikachu, she has some quick strong moves especially if boosted with down b like ftilt and bair. Palutena has bair, dash attack, uair, usmash and back throw so she might be stronger as well. Most things Pikachu has are unsafe because they're ground options, or unguaranteed like down b setups. He's worse at killing than about 3/4ths of the cast which easily makes him bad at it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

>Finding out ADHD now mains

YOU USED TO BE MY HERO BRUH!!!

> tho. Diddy's problem with killing isn't as bad as everyone says. It's just noticably worse than before, because he had the best kill set up in the entire game, if not Smash series as a whole.

 

[Cassio]

pretty much all of Diddy's aerials are better at killing than Pikachu's and he has more reliable setups to smashes from bananas and dtilt, and a strong back throw, while Sheik is worse than Pikachu at killing on the ground but better in the air. Pikachu certainly doesn't kill better than Sonic who's usmash, fsmash and bair are all very strong and back throw decent, ROB is also better or about equal if only because of his uair setups and uthrow if all else fails. Meta Knight kills very easily and definitely better than Pikachu, his up b kills at 100% from the ground and he has easy guaranteed setups into it like dash attack. Dimension Cape kills even earlier than that and so does fsmash which is one of the ~5 smashes in the game that are safe on shield on every character. His bair and nair are also decently strong, same with back throw and uthrow gets the job done quicker than Pikachu's does. I would also say WFT is about the same as Pikachu, she has some quick strong moves especially if boosted with down b like ftilt and bair. Palutena has bair, dash attack, uair, usmash and back throw so she might be Pikachu's level as well. Most things Pikachu has are unsafe because they're ground options, or unguaranteed like down b setups. He's worse at killing than about 3/4ths of the cast which easily makes him bad at it.

I dont think any of these comparisons are correct. And srsly, youre gonna try and say sonics fsmash is good and pikas isnt? And sonics usmash is better then pikas? The move doesnt even always land. Try making your next post without the unrefrained restraint on bias. In any case, I gave a pretty exhaustive list of pikas kill set-ups on the last page that you should look over and address before making general statements.

More realistically, pikachu's aerials are pretty above average in terms of killing strength, so sheik and diddy would have to be exceptionally strong. Diddys aerials seem to be about the same strength as pikas in terms of KO power now, and sheiks are definitely weaker except for maybe upair (stronger) and bair (similarish).

 

[bc1910]

@ TheReflexWonder If Bowser uses Nair that early, Ness could direct the PKT1 bolt away from him and then hit him during Nair's ending lag. That thing moves quickly and has a tight turning circle now. If the hitbox does end on frame 27 then it must have a fairly substantial amount of aerial ending lag. He could also direct just the tail into Bowser like @ Cassio pointed out, which I think links consistently into the orb due to the aforementioned tighter turning circle but I'm not sure.

@ RedBeefBaron Diddy shouldn't be in the list of characters Pikachu has significantly better killing power than. He doesn't belong there considering that list consists of some of the worst killers in the game and Diddy's killing power, while nerfed, is still around average (probably just below). It's not like he has Gunner-tier KO options. Incidentally I think Diddy and Pikachu have comparable killing power now, Pikachu's is probably a little better.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Aren't Pikachu's aerials mostly for comboing? I have a hard time imagining Pikachu killing with any aerial that isn't B Air or N Air, and even they seem to be mostly situational for edgeguarding. U Air is for juggling, F Air and D Air for building up damage. Or am I wrong in these assumptions?

Because Diddy can still easily string 2~3 U Airs out of a juggle / throw, and can edgeguard quite nasty with F Air. Chain B Airs for days, and D Air is just the most sexy move of the game. Really, I cannot imagine any attack more satisfying to land. Bias aside, it's an amazing meteor that absolutely demands respect. N Air is the only aerial Diddy has that's not amazingly awesome, but it still has it's uses, especially as a juggle starter.

Sheik also has that killerrrrrr U Air though, even if landing it's sweetspot is about as hard as landing Sheik's U Smash sweetspot. I do not think that Pikachu beats these two characters currently. But he's at the very least better than Yoshi, Fox, Ness, Zero Suit Samus and Captain Falcon. Characters I think are debatable for being Pikachu's equal / worse than Pika are Rosalina and Sonic.

I still just think that Diddy and Sheik are leagues over the others. Not much, except ESAM winning EVO, can change my mind.

 

[MezzoMe]

I repeat that I don't know that much of Pikachu but I'm pretty sure that the strenght of his Nair and Dair is the low angle at wich they launch the opponent, leading to his edgeguarding.
Also I am not that keen on thinking that Diddy's Dair is that useful by itself, especially since it's his only aerial that can be shielded on reaction

 

[RedBeefBaron]

His execution barrier isn't even that high.

Perhaps execution isn't the right word, but his setups and playstyle in general require really creative decision making skills to work as well as they can compared to many characters. So even if he isn't as physically technical he's hard to play for that reason is what I meant to say.

I could be dumb but saying pikachu has better kill ability than WFT seems strange given the fact that she has among the best kill ability of the game with DB active.
And i'm not mentionning zelda's mention without marth right next to her. Or villager and pac man next to MK.
So what is killig ability exactly?

Meta Knight kills very easily and definitely better than Pikachu, his up b kills at 100% from the ground and he has easy guaranteed setup into it from dash attack. Dimension Cape kills even earlier than that and so does fsmash which is one of the ~5 smashes in the game that are safe on every character's shield. His bair and nair are also decently strong and so is back throw, while uthrow gets the job done quicker than Pikachu's does. I would also say WFT is about the same as Pikachu, she has some quick strong moves especially if boosted with down b like ftilt and bair. Palutena has bair, dash attack, uair, usmash and back throw so she might be stronger as well. Most things Pikachu has are unsafe because they're ground options, or unguaranteed like down b setups. He's worse at killing than about 3/4ths of the cast which easily makes him bad at it.

> tho. Diddy's problem with killing isn't as bad as everyone says. It's just noticably worse than before, because he had the best kill set up in the entire game, if not Smash series as a whole.

The list is my opinion and will be subjective to a certain extent depending on how you describe KO ability. WF, Palutena and Zelda have trouble landing their kill moves and creating setups out of neutral if I'm not mistaken even if they do hit much harder. Does Marth really struggle landing kill shots like these characters do?

I said MK has about the same killing ability as Pikachu because he has setups into kills along with offstage gimps like Pikachu, and while MK kills earlier, Pikachu doesn't have to commit in nuetral like MK does to bring the opponent to kill % and when gimping offstage.

Diddy has an easier time dealing damage and better ground setups but has less KB and a bad offstage gimp game compared to Pikachu at least, as sweet as the dair is. Pikachu isn't that bad at playing neutral and dishing damage compared to Diddy too IMO.

Edit: Pikachu nair and dair can kill when off stage or close to the edge faster that any of Diddy's aerials besides dair. Up air can set up thunder kills. All of Pikachu's aerials can gimp and offstage thunder sets up gimps.

 

[Trifroze]

I dont think any of these comparisons are correct. And srsly, youre gonna try and say sonics fsmash is good and pikas isnt? And sonics usmash is better then pikas? The move doesnt even always land. Try making your next post without the unrefrained restrain on bias. In any case, I gave a pretty exhaustive list of pikas kill set-ups on the last page that you should look over and address before making general statements.

More realistically, pikachu's aerials are pretty above average in terms of killing strength, so sheik and diddy would have to be exceptionally strong. Diddys aerials seem to be about the same strength as pikas in terms of KO power now, and sheiks are definitely weaker except for maybe upair (stronger) and bair (similarish).

I didn't say Pikachu's fsmash wasn't good at any point, it's one of the moves that gives him his killing ability. Let's compare Diddy and Pikachu in their aerials though:

Uair from full jump: Diddy ~160%, Pikachu ~195%
Fair from the edge of the stage: Diddy ~145%, Pikachu ~165%
Bair from the edge of the stage: Diddy ~130%, Pikachu ~145% (fairly unreliable knockback because it can send on either side, correct me if I'm wrong)
Nair from the edge of the stage: Diddy -, Pikachu ~135%
Offstage dair from stage level: Diddy ~40% (much harder to land since meteor), Pikachu ~135%

Diddy has better range and hitboxes in addition to his earlier kill percents. Pikachu will usually be able to use his aerials further offstage than Diddy likes to, but they're still considerably weaker. His smashes are stronger but as said Diddy has better setups into them. I did read your post about Pikachu's setups, but most of them are pretty unreliable when there's dtilt -> kill move or aerial -> kill move true combos and dthrow kill setups in the game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy and Pikachu share an interessting similarity since the patch: both mostly rely on ground moves for a reliable kill option. And in both cases, it's their F Smash.

Remember though, Diddy has the banana, so setting up the F Smash is a lot easier for him than for Pikachu.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Aren't Pikachu's aerials mostly for comboing? I have a hard time imagining Pikachu killing with any aerial that isn't B Air or N Air, and even they seem to be mostly situational for edgeguarding. U Air is for juggling, F Air and D Air for building up damage. Or am I wrong in these assumptions?

Because Diddy can still easily string 2~3 U Airs out of a juggle / throw, and can edgeguard quite nasty with F Air. Chain B Airs for days, and D Air is just the most sexy move of the game. Really, I cannot imagine any attack more satisfying to land. Bias aside, it's an amazing meteor that absolutely demands respect. N Air is the only aerial Diddy has that's not amazingly awesome, but it still has it's uses, especially as a juggle starter.

Sheik also has that killerrrrrr U Air though, even if landing it's sweetspot is about as hard as landing Sheik's U Smash sweetspot. I do not think that Pikachu beats these two characters currently. But he's at the very least better than Yoshi, Fox, Ness, Zero Suit Samus and Captain Falcon. Characters I think are debatable for being Pikachu's equal / worse than Pika are Rosalina and Sonic.

I still just think that Diddy and Sheik are leagues over the others. Not much, except ESAM winning EVO, can change my mind.

I don't believe that the gap between the tops are that big. I also believe pikachu to be the best character in the game. I don't believe he loses to any other top tier or anyone in the cast.

His kill power can be a problem HSB fixes that. Thunder wave also fixes that. So when pikachu is running customs he has legit kill set ups from his projectile.

Yes his aerials are combo based but they're also good for gimps. He has a lot of versatility throughout his moveset. Which makes him an extremely scary character.

Diddy and shiek also get a lot from customs and I trulty believe that it's Pikachu Doddy Shiek in that order. Customs or no customs. Diddy kong has the worst tecovery of the three and cannot go as deep for edgeguards as other the other two.

Pikachu boosting strong neutral mobility versatility and MU spread sets him apart from the other characters IMO. A good pikachu is a problem.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Diddy and Pikachu share an interessting similarity since the patch: both mostly rely on ground moves for a reliable kill option. And in both cases, it's their F Smash.

Remember though, Diddy has the banana, so setting up the F Smash is a lot easier for him than for Pikachu.

I forgot to mention that Pikachu can link fair into up smash and almost everything else but F smash by fast falling to the ground before the third hit connects. It drags his opponent to the floor, auto cancels the move and gives Pikachu massive frame advantage. Its a very important aerial kill setup and can start and reset combos for Pikachu.

It's not as good, but Pikachu can confirm a kill off of a thunderjolt similar to the peel setups with good spacing. He can also produce thunderjolts easier than Diddy can setup the peel and thunderjolts can't be used against Pikachu or taken away like the peel can be.

But yeah, maybe Pikachu doesn't significantly beat Diddy in killing ability now that I think about it. I would still give it to Pikachu though.

Edit: Oh yeah I've been arguing for default Pikachu here, custom Pikachu obviously has amazing kill ability.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pikachu might beat Diddy in killing ability, sure, but I feel Diddy still beats Pikachu and everyone else but Sheik in terms of building up damage quickly. And getting stage control. He's also most of the time, able to live longer than Pikachu. And especially in the Diddy vs Pikachu matchup, that's an important thing.

Still not believing Pikachu beats either Diddy or Sheik, but it's real close I agree.

 

[Illuminose]

Just saying, Nakat has a very practiced Pikachu that is more of a secondary or side main than a true pocket. Furthermore, Pikachu is not an 'easy character' by any means, certainly not to the level of a character like say Diddy Kong where you can sorta just pick up and play. Working with Quick Attack and understanding your combos based on position/percent are all crucial factors that are intricate, especially in regards to using Quick Attack.

Another misconception is Pikachu's lack of KO power, which simply doesn't exist. Pikachu actually has some really powerful kill options, like for instance USmash, fsmash nearish to the side of the stage, Thunder, and Heavy Skull Bash. The issue is that it is generally difficult to actually land his KO moves, causing him to rely on gimps or struggle to actually confirm kills at times. Pikachu has a lot of elaborate combos/followups that can pile on percent, but has this issue, sort of like Sheik except the difference is Pikachu has more KO power while Sheik has more setups to nab her KO options. (Thunder Wave +) HSB mitigates this issue to an extent.

...also there is no way in hell Pikachu is the best character in the game @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY . That title essentially unarguably belongs to Sheik and the next on the tier list is definitely Rosalina. Pikachu may be really good, but not higher than third on the tier list. And Diddy Kong is not top 3...Luigi is even deserving of a higher spot at this point.

 

[Cassio]

I didn't say Pikachu's fsmash wasn't good at any point, it's one of the moves that gives him his killing ability. Let's compare Diddy and Pikachu in their aerials though:

Uair from full jump: Diddy ~160%, Pikachu ~195%
Fair from the edge of the stage: Diddy ~145%, Pikachu ~165%
Bair from the edge of the stage: Diddy ~130%, Pikachu ~145% (fairly unreliable knockback because it can send on either side, correct me if I'm wrong)
Nair from the edge of the stage: Diddy -, Pikachu ~135%
Offstage dair from stage level: Diddy ~40% (much harder to land since meteor), Pikachu ~135%

Diddy has better range and hitboxes in addition to his earlier kill percents. Pikachu will usually be able to use his aerials further offstage than Diddy likes to, but they're still considerably weaker. His smashes are stronger but as said Diddy has better setups into them. I did read your post about Pikachu's setups, but most of them are pretty unreliable when there's dtilt -> kill move or aerial -> kill move true combos and dthrow kill setups in the game.

Those numbers dont make sense. In particular, Im certain pikachus bair is much stronger then his nair at killing from the edge. Also as you mentioned, diddy isnt going to travel far offstage to kill which is why he rarely kills with aerials now. Its not pikachus primary way or killing but at least its available to him.

And yes theres definitely better kill set ups in the game, most of which dont belong to top tiers or come with other significant weaknesses (how good would luigi be without his set ups? Still very good, but very arguably not near the top).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Just saying, Nakat has a very practiced Pikachu that is more of a secondary or side main than a true pocket. Furthermore, Pikachu is not an 'easy character' by any means, certainly not to the level of a character like say Diddy Kong where you can sorta just pick up and play. Working with Quick Attack and understanding your combos based on position/percent are all crucial factors that are intricate, especially in regards to using Quick Attack.

Another misconception is Pikachu's lack of KO power, which simply doesn't exist. Pikachu actually has some really powerful kill options, like for instance USmash, fsmash nearish to the side of the stage, Thunder, and Heavy Skull Bash. The issue is that it is generally difficult to actually land his KO moves, causing him to rely on gimps or struggle to actually confirm kills at times. Pikachu has a lot of elaborate combos/followups that can pile on percent, but has this issue, sort of like Sheik except the difference is Pikachu has more KO power while Sheik has more setups to nab her KO options. (Thunder Wave +) HSB mitigates this issue to an extent.

...also there is no way in hell Pikachu is the best character in the game @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY . That title essentially unarguably belongs to Sheik and the next on the tier list is definitely Rosalina. Pikachu may be really good, but not higher than third on the tier list. And Diddy Kong is not top 3...Luigi is even deserving of a higher spot at this point.

Rosalina loses to shiek sonic zss diddy and pikachu possibly mii brawler and falcon. Please tell me how's she's the 2nd best in the game with so many losing MU's?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm convinced she loses to Wario, too. :x

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Pikachu might beat Diddy in killing ability, sure, but I feel Diddy still beats Pikachu and everyone else but Sheik in terms of building up damage quickly. And getting stage control. He's also most of the time, able to live longer than Pikachu. And especially in the Diddy vs Pikachu matchup, that's an important thing.

Still not believing Pikachu beats either Diddy or Sheik, but it's real close I agree.

It's kind of long but I posted my thoughts on the Diddy Pikachu matchup shortly after the patch dropped. I don't feel quite as strongly as I did but I still think Pikachu beats Diddy.

Spoiler

1. Pikachu's mobility is better than Diddy's so Diddy will not be able to get away and get 1 or 2 seconds to himself whenever he wants to safely pluck a peel in this matchup. Since the damage and KB nerfs Diddy needs to get in cleanly many more times than before and the banana is how he does this. You need to be able to stop Diddy from setting up by either patiently plucking it behind him and immediately jumping, z-catching, and fast falling back to the ground, or aggressively b-reverse plucking the banana towards the opponent from mid range and approaching with fair, dash grab, nair, and empty hop mixups as the banana falls and traps. If you can stop Diddy from setting this up successfully enough he will not get the damage output he now needs.

This is a lot harder to deal with than it sounds on paper. Even if you defend against the banana really well, say, by z-catching it and immediately throwing it away or back at Diddy, or quickly jumping and destroying it, you're still being forced into a situation where you have to do something and the grab/fair mixup is on the way. It's like how Dedede mains use gordo, it can be defended against but you have to do something, which allows Dedede to come at you the way he wants.

Except Dedede's are explaining why Gordo isn't trash. Diddy's use this strategy to make bananas the best projectile in the game. There are dozens of of ways to approach with bananas in Smash 4 because now we can repluck a banana out of our hand after the initial spawn pluck, in addition to four directions to throw and a z-drop. Different setups require different defense maneuvers. Because the Diddy player will know which way he will approach out of many setups and the opponent has to guess or react, skilled banana approaches are the most free mix up in the game. And Diddy gets a lot of reward for getting in. So use your superior mobility to either catch or destroy the banana on aggressive plucks you can punish and get in Diddy's face on patient plucks to stop these mixups before they can be set up.

As far as taking the banana away goes, air speed is good but foot speed trumps it. Because a foot speed character can just sprint across the ground as far as he needs to before jumping and z-catching the peel if its in the air. Additionally "z-scooping," or z-catching an item that is on the ground, is now a thing. Simply running up as close to a grounded banana as you can without tripping and jumping with an immediate z-scoop is a fast, lagless way to pick peels up off the ground. But it's going to be a bad idea if you have slower foot speed than Diddy, because again, Diddy's entire playstyle now revolves around using bananas to force the opponent into situations where he has the advantage. He will use grounded bananas as lures and you will get faired if he catches you going for this.

Characters like Fox, Pikachu, Falcon, Sonic and such are better at taking bananas from Diddy off the aggressive pluck and off the ground for this reason. Someone like Falco probably cannot handle this situation like that. A Diddy who knows how to get the most off of every banana and setup as many times as he can will actually force an approach himself. Which he can also use to lure people into hits, so watch that too.

You're other option is to overpower Diddy's neutral by approaching while simultaneously destroying the bananas Diddy tries to pull out to set you up. Someone like Pikachu can do this well, destroying aggressive b-reverse plucks with jumping thunderjolts and fairs on the way in. But again, if you're too telegraphed with how you try to destroy bananas the Diddy Kong will cover it and you will get faired or worse.

2. Pikachu is good enough at disadvantage to not get bodied too hard when Diddy does get in cleanly. Nair is fast enough and QA helps with landing and escapes in general in a lot of ways. You don't have to worry about getting comboed and juggled for days like some other characters do. So that's good.

3. Pikachu now beats Diddy in terms of kill power and ease of kill setups. Since the patch, Smash 4 Diddy's Achilles heel is the fact that he has terrible kill power outside of hard reads and perfect banana setups. He has reasonable moves for this though, in his F-smash which is now only a little bit more unsafe, and the second hit of his D-smash which is actually quite powerful. With customs on rocketbarrel attack is a risky yet brutal coin flip mixup that will destroy people early if Diddy can bait an air dodge, but Diddy will get hit if he misses.

If you can avoid these three things and draw stocks out for as far as you can and use your superior kill power to close stocks before Diddy lands his kill you will have a much easier time.

4. Many characters can gimp Diddy fairly easily if he has to charge the barrels because he is too low to recover with monkey flip, the hard part is actually forcing Diddy to recover low.

What I've been practicing is using Pikachu's B-reverse thunder just off stage to create a disjointed wall which will block the monkey flip from reaching the ledge and force Diddy to charge the barrels low where he is easily gimped by thunder jolt and quick attack.

But even that's hard. Monkey flip is a fast, safe, and confusing recovery since Diddy can wait to leap halfway into the stage and back to neutral where he dominates for as long as he wants. Coupled with the fact that the peanut cancel makes his movement even more crazy, I don't think most characters will be able to stop this recovery enough to put Diddy under the stage where he's screwed. Pikachu has a real shot, but you'll have to practice and have reasonable reads.

I thought Pikachu may have ended up winning this matchup pre patch if the Pikachu mains really nailed it down. Pikachu is one of the few that can can expose both Diddy's poor recovery and the banana's awful durability well, and Pikachu is also more mobile. Post patch i think Pikachu definitely wins, at least 65-45, as now Diddy has to work significantly harder.

I think Pikachu completely flew under the radar and may be the best in the game, by the way. There were no real changes for Pikachu in the patch because she is hard enough to play correctly that not many people were complaining about her like Diddy or Shiek. I'm hoping to see Pikachu mains doing work now.

 

[thehard]

I'm convinced she loses to Wario, too. :x

Explain yourself!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm convinced she loses to Wario, too. :x

It's probably even Rosalina can keep Wario out pretty effectively. I think she has to be worried about Waft and the edgeguard. Some of his ground game can give her problems like dtilt and DA. Other than that though IDK. I'd need to play the MU more though. Have only played it online. With customs Rosalina laser bit will blow up speed bike in one shot and heavy bike could be a pain but being grounded isn't always the same problem for rosa as it is other characters. Incidentally rosa can edgeguard Wario pretty well. He has to recover high because of the dair threat. Which kinda plays into Rosalina's hands.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo would be good if he was heavier. It really is as simple as that IMO. As it is he has no survivability which is becoming increasingly important in this game. Simply being heavy doesn't necessarily give you good survivability (customless Ganon) but when combined with a recovery as excellent as Mewtwo's it definitely makes a difference.

He'd still lose to rushdown/top tiers but bleh, so do almost everyone. And he'd actually be able to threaten them up close with shieldgrab rage Uthrow. Right now he dies too early for it to ever matter. Uthrow is a good kill move, exceptional with rage, but he never gets to use it on people cause he's dead at like 100.

What else does Mewtwo need? Things that would help any character, really. Better mobility, faster moves, a combo throw. His weight is the main thing for me. I think to make him viable with his current size/weight would require generous buffs from all 3 categories I just mentioned.

It's true that Uthrow doesn't kill as much as you'd think... because chances are Mewtwo has killed you with one of his
many other kill moves before Uthrow would have. Kill throws are great of course, but this isn't Melee where throws were
Mewtwo's best and only reliable source of kills. Landing that killing Uthrow isn't crucial like it used to be, it's just an
option he has in case he needs it.

Now let's see how he plays compared to the two fighters who join him in top 3 of lightness: Jigglypuff and Mr. Game & Watch.

Jigglypuff is tiny, has five jumps and great air mobility letting her avoid attacks with ease. Her moves have very little range
however and don't hit that hard, save for bair, rest and pound, and her ground mobility is quite bad which generally limits her approach.

Mr. Game & Watch has Mario-grade mobility and has good disjoints on almost all of his attacks so getting hits in
is fairly easy for him and he can be evasive too, but he has difficulty closing stocks compared to the other two since
none of his kill moves are fast or easy to land.

Mewtwo is the least mobile of the three on a basic level (his specials let him control his air mobility in a multitude of ways) and has a more difficult time escaping disadvantage as a result, but he is far better at KOing with things like Shadow Ball (which Mewtwo
can reflect back if he has to and can pester fairly well thanks to low endlag), shadow claw (fair that hits very fast with decent range
in front of Mewtwo), usmash (vicious frame 5 anti-air that eats poorly timed airdodges for breakfast and beats out many attacks) and disable (which has very deceptive range, longer than even his dtilt). Killing throws are just icing on the cake if he gets a grab
at high percents.

 

[bc1910]

In this game, kill throws are the best kill options bar none. Landing a kill from a throw is more crucial than ever.

In Melee they are less relevant on a cast-wide basis for many reasons. Shields are not as strong. Shield drop animations are longer. Actual block pressure exists. Jumping is not as risky because of higher gravity and L-cancelling. All this adds up to an incentive to not just spam shield when you think you're going to die, an incentive that flat out doesn't exist in Sm4sh UNLESS you are fighting someone with a kill throw or a very fast shield breaker.

Now I know how this might sound, and I'm not suggesting no-one will ever die unless they get hit by a kill throw, but to be good at killing in this game you need some way to dissuade your opponent from shielding all the time when they're about to die. Fox's inability to kill shield-heavy players at high percent is a huge part of the reason why he's not the best in the game as some suggest he would be if he had Falco's grabs.

Kill throws are far more than "icing on the cake". They can make or break a character. See Ness. Mewtwo's other kill options being better are largely offset by shields and defence being better. A kill throw should be a massive advantage for him yet it cannot be used to its fullest potential because of his pathetic weight. He has this super reliable kill move but can't reliably build up the damage to use it because he dies so quickly.

While we're at it I don't think much of Mewtwo's other kill options anyway. Usmash is the best but still easily avoided by simply not airdodging too early. The other smashes are pretty slow. His edgeguarding is unreliable, Fair is potentially very good (good enough to change my mind, in fact) but I've yet to see it be used properly for edgeguarding. Also his weird double jump does not help here. Fully charged Shadow Ball is an excellent punish but very telegraphed because you know when he has it and thus you know he'll be looking to use it.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Explain yourself!

She can't exactly threaten Wario in neutral so he can camp for waft for days. Plus being light, tall and not particularly mobile makes her a really easy target for waft, and then there's Luma that makes the waft linger for twenty extra frames. (Plus Luma is pretty vulnerable to bike)

That's all I know, Reflex could explain it better.

 

[Trifroze]

In this game, kill throws are the best kill options bar none. Landing a kill from a throw is more crucial than ever.

In Melee they are less relevant on a cast-wide basis for many reasons. Shields are not as strong. Shield drop animations are longer. Actual block pressure exists. Jumping is not as risky because of higher gravity and L-cancelling. All this adds up to an incentive to not just spam shield when you think you're going to die, an incentive that flat out doesn't exist in Sm4sh UNLESS you are fighting someone with a kill throw or a very fast shield breaker.

Kill throws are far more than "icing on the cake". They can make or break a character. See Ness. Mewtwo's other kill options being better are largely offset by shields and defence being better. A kill throw should be a massive advantage for him yet it cannot be used to its fullest potential because of his pathetic weight.

"Actual block pressure" in Smash 4 is grabs though. I might be wrong but the tone you have sounds like attacks should be safer on shield like they are in Melee, however I think attacks are relevant enough already and making them stronger on shield would just make grabs less relevant especially with chaingrabs gone (thank science). Also characters have faster run speed on average in Smash 4 than Melee making grabs easier to land.

 

[Djent]

M2K's is butt.

Help I can't handle this after AeroLink pls

 

[bc1910]

I don't really intend any tone about attacks being too unsafe on shield or shields being OP or whatnot. I'm just saying that for many reasons, at kill percent you are at the lowest risk of dying when you are shielding and kill throws go against this, which is why they're so crucial.

Now in Melee granted most of the top tiers are pretty busted anyway but shielding at high % is not going to save you from multishining, Marth SHFFL pressure, Sheik SHFFL pressure etc. I'm not saying this game should be more like Melee (I promise I am NOT turning this thread into a Melee vs SSB4 debate lol), I'm just pointing out differences in the engine which make shielding less risky in this game and thus make kill throws better because they are the best way to beat shields at high % bar none. Whereas in Melee there were several options to beat shields.

Your last point is another thing that boosts my point, really. Run speeds making grabs easier to land again contributes to making kill throws more relevant.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Everything that people are saying about Mewtwo being extremely versatile and threatening is true but he is still severely held back by his weight and size to the point where I don't see him ending up in the top 50%. Jiggs and G&W have better options at disadvantage and are much smaller and they are still held back by their low survivability.

I want to say that Mewtwo's offense will be less scary once people learn to escape his mixups better too but I don't know enough about those setups to say for sure.

 

[Smog Frog]

can i just say that confusion is the best at setting up awful situations where the safest option upon being hit sets you up for a landing trap? if there's one thing s great at its setting up awful positions.

 

[Ffamran]

Fox's inability to kill shield-heavy players at high percent is a huge part of the reason why he's not the best in the game as some suggest he would be if he had Falco's grabs.

Falco's throws are one of the least reliable kill throws in the game. You can DI out of U- and B-throw while D-throw is really situational and character dependent for stage spikes and F-throw's just there. You do not want Falco's grabs as his standing grab is slower than Ganondorf's while his dash and pivot are the same as Fox's. What Fox would like is Falco's throw game which would either help him immensely or break him since he would have a strong grab and throw game. Then again, I don't know if they have the same throws, but Falco's Blaster part of his throws just makes it more than Fox's since their Blaster parts function as they would in-game. but Falco's F-throw might be stronger.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah I meant Falco's throws, not his actual grabs. There are other characters with a better set of throws but the comparison was mostly drawn because Falco's throws, despite not being amazing, would be good enough to push Fox within touching distance of the #1 spot. And partly drawn because they're from the same series and have similar throws anyway, I think. This isn't my original idea but I agree with it.

I mean if you want to decisively break Fox give him Diddy's throws and call it a day.

 

[Nysyr]

So it turns out Luma still has 52 HP on the 3ds version. The death noise for luma plays at 48 damage hilariously still though.

Tested with fox laser up close in training mode. 16 lasers Luma makes the death sound, however doesn't die till 18 lasers. Each laser does 3%.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So it turns out Luma still has 52 HP on the 3ds version. The death noise for luma plays at 48 damage hilariously still though.

Tested with fox laser up close in training mode. 16 lasers Luma makes the death sound, however doesn't die till 18 lasers. Each laser does 3%.

Worth pointing out that if Luma dies to something that doesn't send it flying, it takes a few seconds to explode. Did you sit and wait around for a while after it made the noise?