Character Competitive Impressions

[wedl!!]

off topic; some guy told me that i was using equipment because according to him "mii brawler doesn't jump that high nor does he run that fast"

for reference i was running tiny mii brawler

What are Wario's weaknesses though? The only thing I can think of is that he can struggle to get a kill thanks to a lack of kill setups (I think).

he lacks a strong combo game and struggles against characters who outrange him

 

[Project Quarantine]

Wario has no combo game as well so his damage output can be lackluster.

But yeah he's not short on KO options even ignoring waft.

Saying that he has no combo game is incorrect. Wario can falling nair combo into aerials from ~0-30. Also, Full hop fair into bite can work, as well as dtilt-da or dtilt-grab. Falling uair can combo into utilt, and sometimes upb.

Then there is the bike, which can do all sorts of wackiness like throwing it and getting a grab guarantee due to shieldstun. I believe dthrown bike->halfcharged waft/full rosewaft can be a guaranteed sheild break if not powersheilded. Otherwise, bike throw hits have so much hitstun, you can combo into almost anything on the fly.

Wario mains feel free to check my work, I only secondary him

 

[bc1910]

I'm testing it right now in training. Good startup, low endlag but not so low that you can't react and ledgejump, especially not before he can start another Bite. That's huge. His ledge trapping is nowhere near as scary as it would be if he could hold Bite infinitely.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Saying that he has no combo game is incorrect. Wario can falling nair combo into aerials from ~0-30. Also, Full hop fair into bite can work, as well as dtilt-da or dtilt-grab. Falling uair can combo into utilt, and sometimes upb.

Then there is the bike, which can do all sorts of wackiness like throwing it and getting a grab guarantee due to shieldstun. I believe dthrown bike->halfcharged waft/full rosewaft can be a guaranteed sheild break if not powersheilded. Otherwise, bike throw hits have so much hitstun, you can combo into almost anything on the fly.

Wario mains feel free to check my work, I only secondary him

Saying he has no combos was an exaggeration yeah. I knew he has them, but his combo game definitely isn't a strong point of his. All the ones you mentioned are pretty hard to pull off, too.

 

[Blobface]

I feel "Poor Damage output" would be a better way to describe one of Wario's flaws. He has a few short combos, but he doesn't really have the damage per hit to make up for it.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Saying he has no combos was an exaggeration yeah. I knew he has them, but his combo game definitely isn't a strong point of his. All the ones you mentioned are pretty hard to pull off, too.

Not only are they hard to pull off, they are mostly for low percent. Once your opponent is ~ >50%, bike combos are all you have, and those take some time to set up.

This is why an optimal Wario strat is to rack up some low percent damage, then wait back to charge waft.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Aerolink just took out Larry in winners finals at Dentis Bizarre Adventure

 

[deepseadiva]

Palutena broke

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Larry told the commentators that he had no idea what Palutena could do, lol. It's not that surprising that AeroLink managed to win, IMO.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Speeding Bike -> Quick Waft -> Corkscrew KO is guaranteed at 40 or so %, is it not?

/hastotallynotbeenhitbythisnonoofcoursenot

Also being outranged means little to Wario when he has the natural air speed to keep up and Speeding Bike serving as a "You Lose This Exchange" button he can pull out virtually every and any second.

 

[thehard]

And on another stream... ESAM playing custom Pika and pretty much getting no benefit from it.

 

[Djent]

Goddamn it I have to get up in 7 hours and all this stuff is happening.

Phuzix has 2 on ESAM (looking to be 2-2 soon). EDIT: 2-3 RIP

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Larry told the commentators that he had no idea what Palutena could do, lol. It's not that surprising that AeroLink managed to win, IMO.

Wait, you're telling me that someone went to a tournament in Aerolink's area and didn't look up what Palutena can do? Isn't he basically known for using her at this point?

 

[Djent]

Grats @AeroLink_the_SoulMaster

 

[Hippieslayer]

Palutena proof custom broke

 

[Nobie]

Just wanted to say, big congrats to @DunnoBro

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Oh please, people were convinced custom Donkey Kong was obviously broken like last week.

 

[Djent]

@ RedBeefBaron I guarantee it was a joke.

Also Jump Glide is maybe sort of okay. @ deepseadiva was right that the whole "get out of ledge free" thing is huge. I still worry about its trajectory (lack of vertical height means you *know* Palu has to go for it fairly early). But the option to float can screw with attempts to stick an aerial out in its path...hmm.

 

[Hippieslayer]

He lost a stock once and got punished hard for using it stupidly once. He was also close to getting punished for quite often when using but was just able to get away or mixup stall. Still he also escaped from tons of bad situations with it so I dunno.

One thing though, I don't get why Larry decided on Luigi so early... it seems to me that Palutena sort of can space quite effectively with her basic attacks vs Luigi because of his lack of horizontal speed, same reason jump glide worked as well (I think fox coulda punished it a few times where luigi just didnt have the horizontal speed required). I mean Palutena struggles when she cant keep characters out. Kinda surprised they went to battlefield twice for the same reason but heck I dunno, Aerolink did win the second match on battlefield.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

@ RedBeefBaron I guarantee it was a joke.

Yeah, I was kind of joking as well.

On topic: If Wario has poor range and damage output what are Pikachu's alleged weaknesses?

 

[thehard]

I have to be honest, watching Phuzix vs. ESAM I felt like Phuzix could have won had he played more patiently. Too many unsafe f-smashes and... that Halberd mistake.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I have to be honest, watching Phuzix vs. ESAM I felt like Phuzix could have won had he played more patiently. Too many unsafe f-smashes and... that Halberd mistake.

what channel they streaming that on?

@ Djent : Well Aerolink isn't that well known a player afaik. I mean ppl know him as that scrubby Diddy who somehow got 9th at Apex But yeah you really shouldnt go in against THE Palutena main without knowing a little about the matchup, I mean you're up against a plethora of straight out deadly gimmicks. And Aerolink can do more than just gimmicky stuff, by now he's really got control of the character.

@ RedBeefBaron Well Pikachu ain't all that when it comes to killing and it's a light little sh*t too. He's got maybe a little bit of the Peach syndrome? I dunno though.

 

[thehard]

what channel they streaming that on?

@ Djent : Well Aerolink isn't that well known a player afaik. I mean ppl know him as that scrubby Diddy who somehow got 9th at Apex But yeah you really shouldnt go in against THE Palutena main without knowing a little about the matchup, I mean you're up against a plethora of straight out deadly gimmicks. And Aerolink can do more than just gimmicky stuff, by now he's really got control of the character.

@ RedBeefBaron Well Pikachu ain't all that when it comes to killing and it's a light little sh*t too. He's got maybe a little bit of the Peach syndrome? I dunno though.

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc Currently fighting for EVO flights.

 

[Teshie U]

Fireball definitely forces an approach... Ganon is a massive, slow moving target unless he commits to something that can be stuffed and punished by nair or nado. Ganon has no projectiles. How do you expect to win against a campy Luigi without getting close?

Luigi will not be rolling in or aggressively approaching at all in this matchup, he should be playing very lame with fireballs until Ganon realizes he has to do something and approaches himself. And Ganon loses hard to Luigi's frame data in this situation.

Luigi does die to Ganon's edgegarding but only without jumpless tornado. And it's not like Luigi can't get some gimps himself.

Edit: Flying across the stage due to shield pushback resets to the neutral that Luigi wins in.

You can just shield fireball or clash it out repeatedly. Once the shield push has gotten your back against the ledge, you aren't winning neutral at all. Then when ganon creeps up on you and hits your shield with powerful and safe moves, you have no where to go and you can't shield again or you risk it breaking. Then you at 10% to warlock punch.

Now obviously a real match doesn't play out as clear cut as that. But, fireball isn't really that superb in keeping ganon out. Eventually he reaches an optimal range with fireball isn't fast or safe enough and he can reach you, but you can't reach him. If you choose to retreat, eventually you run out of space.

Ganon's most defining weakness (imo) is the lack of quick moves to box with or counter hit. I don't buy that trying to avoid him the entire time is actually viable.

Ganon's massive aerials will hit luigi out of pretty much everything in the air. recovery will be a matter of getting around ganon

 

[Hippieslayer]

Luigi isnt fast enough to be great at staying away from Ganon. Shouldn't frost ballz be better than fireballs anyway?

 

[Blobface]

Sonic sure wishes he could swim right now. That was the best 2-stock ever.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

You can just shield fireball or clash it out repeatedly. Once the shield push has gotten your back against the ledge, you aren't winning neutral at all. Then when ganon creeps up on you and hits your shield with powerful and safe moves, you have no where to go and you can't shield again or you risk it breaking. Then you at 10% to warlock punch.

Now obviously a real match doesn't play out as clear cut as that. But, fireball isn't really that superb in keeping ganon out. Eventually he reaches an optimal range with fireball isn't fast or safe enough and he can reach you, but you can't reach him. If you choose to retreat, eventually you run out of space.

Ganon's most defining weakness (imo) is the lack of quick moves to box with or counter hit. I don't buy that trying to avoid him the entire time is actually viable.

Ganon's massive aerials will hit luigi out of pretty much everything in the air. recovery will be a matter of getting around ganon

By, "campy Luigi" i don't really mean to say that Luigi will be just running and spamming fireballs the entire match. I mean he will play out of Ganon's range with them until he has an opportunity to safely move into close range to get his real damage. The fireball is a very versatile projectile that Luigi can use to both harrass from afar and cover the approach to close range, similar to Pikachu's thunderjolt. Both swatting it and blocking it without a power shield can be punishable by Luigi if his spacing is on point, as his ground speed is actually respectable despite his other mobility problems.

The way you describe the matchup from Ganon's perspective is actually pretty legit though and if it can happen like that I'd say that maybe Ganon doesn't lose quite as hard as I thought. But the fact is that Ganon still has to play a game where Luigi gets to pick his battles and make his moves when he wants as long as he doesn't get cornered, whereas Ganon has to break the opponents neutral before he can get his reward. Luigi and other characters have much more control over when, where, and how they meet with their opponent than Ganon in this matchup. As refined as Ganondorf mains hone their approaches this will always be a serious weakness.

Edit: Ice balls are great for this kind of playstyle, they give Luigi more cover when approaching because they move slower, have better trajectory, better durability, and last longer. You sacrifice projectile speed and the default has less startup and cooldown. Ice balls are probably better in this matchup because Ganon is pretty slow but I don't know if any of the fireball options are better than another overall.

Edit 2:

@@RedBeefBaron Well Pikachu ain't all that when it comes to killing and it's a light little sh*t too. He's got maybe a little bit of the Peach syndrome? I dunno though.

Pikachu's kill ability is average at worst in my mind. He can kill of a thunderjolt confirm with DA and up Smash, thunder gives him a juggle kill move and his offstage gimps are extremely good. As ESAM displayed tonight kill power is hardly a worry for custom Pikachu due to heavy skull bash. And that's all fairly basic stuff, I'm convinced that someone who is really skilled with Pikachu can come up with more complicated setups and gimps too.

Although it is partially mitigated by his great mobility, his great recovery and his small hurtbox, Pikachu is light. But I can't think of a weakness besides this and a high execution barrier.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Holy wow ESAM putting in skull bash work.

And also:
Live and learn

 

[Blobface]

@ RedBeefBaron That's basically every Ganon matchup except his advantaged ones. Even in his even matchups, he's the one that has to make the commitment. His goal is scare people into making bad decisions and throwing people off by doing something unexpected. It's why camping him is usually more difficult than it might seem. I could see Ganon vs Luigi being in Luigi's favor though. Not by much, but still in his favor.

Those sonic dittos though.

 

[Teshie U]

I don't know anything about luigi;s customs.

Ice ball seems far from ideal since he wants to get you into a grapple or boxing situation, not fling you into the air in a protective barrier of ice. Ice ball is only good if you are silly enough to prioritize avoiding it when it leads into basically nothing but a juggle from a slow character with no range.

Meanwhile ganon custom up B makes trying to combo him at close range, VERY risky and gives him the most important thing he needs, a close range option. Not to mention dropkick improving his recovery distance and going over projectiles.

Ganon's situation is kind of like an inverted look at Sonic from Brawl. Sonic could control the pace of all his matchup. He decided when and where to fight, but when he got in, he lost anyway. Ganondorf can just wait and then you have to deal with his 30% damage upsmash thats safe on shield and worry about dying at 40% to fsmash (also pretty safe on shield).

 

[Blobface]

I personally feel Wizkick is generally better for Ganon than Dropkick. It's much better for punishes, and having both Wizkick and Dark Fists allows Ganon to land kills at 50% from disadvantage. Dropkick is mainly for recovery in matchups like Sheik and Rosalina.

 

[Teshie U]

I definitely understand that. I felt the same way initially, but landing a frame 19 from a disadvantage is difficult in most matchups. While it is insanely powerful and another high shield damage move, most characters can just out speed it or avoid it and just reset the juggle.

Dropkicking out of a juggle can get you far away from your opponent and you can still kill early at a disadvantage by fastfalling into someone and armoring with Dark Fists.

I would say that in a matchup vs a low range character that won't go deep to gimp you, Wizkick may be more useful . I do like how useful dropkick is for always ledge cancelling at set distances regardless of hit or miss. Even against Luigi, I think getting mileage out of dropkick off stage is well worth it.

 

[thehard]

Over reliance on powerful customs to the detriment of your own play is real

ESAM shouldn't be going for half of these attempted HSBs

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I don't know anything about luigi;s customs.

Ice ball seems far from ideal since he wants to get you into a grapple or boxing situation, not fling you into the air in a protective barrier of ice. Ice ball is only good if you are silly enough to prioritize avoiding it when it leads into basically nothing but a juggle from a slow character with no range.

Meanwhile ganon custom up B makes trying to combo him at close range, VERY risky and gives him the most important thing he needs, a close range option. Not to mention dropkick improving his recovery distance and going over projectiles.

We are quickly descending into theory fighter 4 territory but Ice ball disrupts Ganon's game plan very well due to the fact that it doesn't always fling you away like that, which allows Luigi to followup from a confirm like the default. And when it does, Luigi can often get at least some damage off the freeze stun and it will push Ganon away for some breathing room.

The dropkick custom is such a double edged sword vs Luigi and many other characters. Do you take a better recovery and the ability to break certain horizontal neutral tools like Luigi fireballs better or the faster vertical reversal tool that is a godsend against juggles, which Luigi also does work with? Honestly I don't know Ganon enough to say for this matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can just shield fireball or clash it out repeatedly. Once the shield push has gotten your back against the ledge, you aren't winning neutral at all. Then when ganon creeps up on you and hits your shield with powerful and safe moves, you have no where to go and you can't shield again or you risk it breaking. Then you at 10% to warlock punch.

Now obviously a real match doesn't play out as clear cut as that. But, fireball isn't really that superb in keeping ganon out. Eventually he reaches an optimal range with fireball isn't fast or safe enough and he can reach you, but you can't reach him. If you choose to retreat, eventually you run out of space.

Ganon's most defining weakness (imo) is the lack of quick moves to box with or counter hit. I don't buy that trying to avoid him the entire time is actually viable.

Ganon's massive aerials will hit luigi out of pretty much everything in the air. recovery will be a matter of getting around ganon

Luigi's fireball clashing with Ganon's attacks causing him to lag and his Fireball being safe on POWERSHIELD is why the matchup is bad for Ganon.

It forces Ganon to not rely on his best options in midrange.

In contrast, Mario's fireball doesn't clash nearly as often with Ganon's attacks (especially DA), meaning Ganon can more easily ignore it. Plus it's a lot laggier and Mario doesn't get any trap setups from it.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

ESAM is just out here talking **** and doing work lol. He's like the TO of smash.

He does clearly need to learn what the time to use heavy skull bash is though. Funny thing is as much as he whiffed it it was safe like more than half of the time and it got him like half of his kills. Even if we all decide that thunder wave sucks compared to thunderjolt Pikachu is gonna be even higher on the custom tier list.

 

[thehard]

I do like how chat started spamming "jank" constantly and caused the word to lose all meaning after some really obnoxious arguments before hand. Need more of that.

ESAM definitely played smarter as time went on, and I imagine people would punish HSB better as time went on too

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I do like how chat started spamming "jank" constantly and caused the word to lose all meaning after some really obnoxious arguments before hand. Need more of that.

ESAM definitely played smarter as time went on, and I imagine people would punish HSB better as time went on too

I agree, although HSB is pretty incredible compared to the default. ESAM was a little sloppy with it but he displayed the burst kill power of that move for punishes and the way it allows you to recover high for free when mashed out of a high knockback hit. When he gets that move down completely he will make Pikachu look insane in the customs meta.

 

[thehard]

ESAM thinks Brawler is #1 in a customs on meta, with Pika 2nd. Customs off he thinks #1 is Pika (or Sheik)

 

[Trifroze]

This is the problem with customs, giving some characters extremely overpowered individual moves that admittedly weren't designed with balance in mind, and thus increasing the balance gap between the worst and the best characters in the game while people argue that customs improve it.

HSB is essentially an aerial smash attack that is difficult to punish if used right, has low startup, a lot of range even for the strongest hit and high power with practically no drawbacks for a character who was designed to have trouble killing to make up for his strengths. I have a feeling that people support customs just because it makes their character stronger. As much as I love custom Ganondorf and Falcon being able to go under BF with improved recovery, I'd never claim customs are good for the metagame.