Character Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Ganon has explicitly favorable matchups against the following characters:



Most of his matchups are honestly about evenish, the main blatantly unfavorable matchups are like:

Can I just say that I love the fact that you just posted 21 characters with advantages or disadvantages against Ganon, and you can still say that most of his matchups are even?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Can I just say that I love the fact that you just posted 21 characters with advantages or disadvantages against Ganon, and you can still say that most of his matchups are even?

Aren't there something like 52 characters, though?

Unfortunately for him, most of the ones listed as "noticeably disadvantageous" are the good/popular characters. That's similar for most characters in the game, but...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fwiw I think Ganon vs Wario is pretty even in non-custom meta, I would assume the same to be true with customs on.


I'm positive that Ganondorf can beat the following characters in a non-custom metagame:


I'm positive that Ganondorf can NOT beat the following characters in a non-custom metagame:



The other characters I'm not sure about. Characters like Fox and Olimar are probably kinda bad for Ganon but possibly manageable anyway.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

In Brawl, Luigi was one of ganondorf's most manageable matchups due to shield push vs traction and edgeguarding.

What has changed? When you ftilt luigi's shield, he slides back so hard, he starts moonwalking when he shield drops? His recovery is pretty much free to ganondorf's nair/uair

Luigi has much better damage per hit, a better recovery, and a better jab since brawl for sure, I also want to say a better fireball due to it's speed and the way the space it controls is more important in this engine and more priority on the down-b?

Luigi has the projectile to harrass and force an approach, the frame data to bully ganon's options, a high priority move to stuff ganon's burst approaches and an incredible amount of reward on a clean hit with great kill power. He also happens to not be at a clear mobility disadvantage in this matchup.

Edit: Also Ganon's advantage and combos are not as good against ultra floatys similar to falcon, mac, and fox.

 

[|RK|]

Aren't there something like 52 characters, though?

Unfortunately for him, most of the ones listed as "noticeably disadvantageous" are the good/popular characters. That's similar for most characters in the game, but...

Yeah there are - that's my point. I kinda love it.

And yeah, that's unfortunate. It makes sense, though.

 

[Teshie U]

Fireball hardly forces an approach and his recovery still loses to ganon's legs. Damage per hit is nice if you can get in, but its a guessing game where shielding sends you flying across the stage anyway.

What hope does luigi have of getting to use his jab or grab without risking death when he has to roll in.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thank that Ganon for letting him charge waft for free?

How do you run away from a character that walls every move you do without Brawl airdodge? As I said, Ganon WINS neutral and doesn't need to do anything risky for stage control.

I fail to see the advantage. Ganondorf's normals are all above 10 frames excluding jab at 8. Meta Knight is too small to be hit by auto cancelled back air consistently, and all of his aerials incur significant landing lag. In close quarters, Ganondorf loses, and Ganondorf has limited options dealing with Meta Knight's defensive play, particularly when he's in the lead. It's hardly a guessing game when you cannot commit to half of the actions available without being open to a combo.

Ganondorf's DA and tilts are exactly frame 10. You aren't defending against those reactively, and spotdodging to avoid Flame Choke is way riskier in this game. For that matter MK can't really afford to get hit, honestly.

Luigi is actually good now, that's what changed!

Yoshi also totally murders Ganon, it's pretty sad to watch.

Disagree. Vermanubis beat Dr. Robotnik in tournament 2-0. Also Yoshi by design doesn't murder anyone. Ganon's Uair and Flame Choke are plenty strong in this matchup.

Can I just say that I love the fact that you just posted 21 characters with advantages or disadvantages against Ganon, and you can still say that most of his matchups are even?

So? There's like 50 characters.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm positive that Ganondorf can beat the following characters in a non-custom metagame:

You say that now but wait until Gimpfighter drags Ganon to hack with his down air. :3. With that being said I actually know very little about that MU

 

[Ulevo]

Ganondorf's DA and tilts are exactly frame 10. You aren't defending against those reactively, and spotdodging to avoid Flame Choke is way riskier in this game. For that matter MK can't really afford to get hit, honestly.

Ganondorf cannot approach Meta Knight with those tilts because he does not have the movement options to do so. They're footsy tools, not pressure options, both of which are vulnerable to Meta Knight's dash attack on whiff, which comes out on frame 7 and covers a very far distance. Dash attack cannot hit Meta Knight in the air, nor can Flame Choke, so the idea that spot dodging is risky is irrelevant most of the time.

The reality is that Meta Knight can commit to a lot more in neutral than Ganondorf can because Meta Knights recovery is low and his speed is high. If Ganondorf sneezes wrong, he's either grabbed or in a hit confirm. The problem comes when Meta Knight trades with Ganondorf, and this comes back to my point about the lack of match up familiarity and respecting Ganondorf too much or too little. This is player error, and not a match up discrepancy.

 

[warionumbah2]

Flame chock should never be connecting MK, he has no reason to stay on the ground. Its similar to the Olimar MU actually, ground isn't safe/working? camp in the air and be a *****, only come down and fight when YOU feel like it or if your opponent over commits.

But i rarely see MKs going full ***** mode sadly, i've seen Kata go ***** mode on Ness but that's it.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Fireball hardly forces an approach and his recovery still loses to ganon's legs. Damage per hit is nice if you can get in, but its a guessing game where shielding sends you flying across the stage anyway.

What hope does luigi have of getting to use his jab or grab without risking death when he has to roll in.

Fireball definitely forces an approach... Ganon is a massive, slow moving target unless he commits to something that can be stuffed and punished by nair or nado. Ganon has no projectiles. How do you expect to win against a campy Luigi without getting close?

Luigi will not be rolling in or aggressively approaching at all in this matchup, he should be playing very lame with fireballs until Ganon realizes he has to do something and approaches himself. And Ganon loses hard to Luigi's frame data in this situation.

Luigi does die to Ganon's edgegarding but only without jumpless tornado. And it's not like Luigi can't get some gimps himself.

Edit: Flying across the stage due to shield pushback resets to the neutral that Luigi wins in.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf cannot approach Meta Knight with those tilts because he does not have the movement options to do so. They're footsy tools, not pressure options, both of which are vulnerable to Meta Knight's dash attack on whiff, which comes out on frame 7 and covers a very far distance. Dash attack cannot hit Meta Knight in the air, nor can Flame Choke, so the idea that spot dodging is risky is irrelevant most of the time.

The reality is that Meta Knight can commit to a lot more in neutral than Ganondorf can because Meta Knights recovery is low and his speed is high. If Ganondorf sneezes wrong, he's either grabbed or in a hit confirm. The problem comes when Meta Knight trades with Ganondorf, and this comes back to my point about the lack of match up familiarity and respecting Ganondorf too much or too little. This is player error, and not a match up discrepancy.

Wtf MK's worst option in this matchup is jumping in neutral. Short hops get bodied by both DA and Nair. Full hops are asking to be owned by Uair. MK HAS to be grounded to be most safe in this matchup, which at best is still a guessing game for him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Disagree. Vermanubis beat Dr. Robotnik in tournament 2-0.

... who?

 

[warionumbah2]

MK HAS to be grounded to be most safe in this matchup.

Bruh have you played this match up? 3 jumps and he's completely out of Ganons range, he has 3 leftover to mix up his landing which isn't hard considering how slow Ganon is.

Staying on the ground isn't safe, i can posts vids right now of MKs staying grounded but lose the matchup embarrassingly by getting flame chocked --> Dtilt/Ftilt.

 

[wedl!!]

Not sure which matchups Diddy now loses, cause to me it feels most matchups are the same as before. Only ones who got harder to me are: .

ironically those are all his harder mus except for

always had a slight advantage (prob even) against , but since 's kill setups are less reliable now might have the advantage. even then it's not that bad.

i always thought was one of the better characters tbh. he doesn't have a lot of options oos to stop her float shenanigans except for uair, which is a bit of a commitment. doesn't have great disadvantage so if she gets juggled she's sort of screwed unless is bad at spacing (so he gets naired to death ). characters have similar kits so i don't really think it's much worse than a slight disadvantage for peach, like 45:55.

's biggest issue in this mu was her weight; the nerfs to uair and fair make it so that's less relevant. this is like a 50:50 now, but luma's hp reduction is making me feel reluctant about saying that.

he still has a great mu spread regardless, that's ever really going to change.

@ ~ Gheb ~ what the ****? wrecks super hard. i don't know how to feel about the / mu though, maybe it's in 's advantage?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bruh have you played this match up? 3 jumps and he's completely out of Ganons range, he has 3 leftover to mix up his landing which isn't hard considering how slow Ganon is.

Staying on the ground isn't safe, i can posts vids right now of MKs staying grounded but lose the matchup embarrassingly by getting flame chocked --> Dtilt/Ftilt.

You also have terrible horizontal air mobility, and Ganon risks next to nothing trying to trap MK's air options with Uair and grounded Wizkick (esp ledge canceled)

If anything Ganon really wants MK in the air where he doesn't have to deal with MK's dashgrab.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How do you run away from a character that walls every move you do without Brawl airdodge? As I said, Ganon WINS neutral and doesn't need to do anything risky for stage control.

Ganondorf's DA and tilts are exactly frame 10. You aren't defending against those reactively, and spotdodging to avoid Flame Choke is way riskier in this game. For that matter MK can't really afford to get hit, honestly.]

Smash 4 airdodge is more beneficial to Wario than Brawl airdodge, especially in terms of running away. Shorter animation, less endlag, still lagless from a shorthop. The change also takes away a strong approach tool that many of the best characters could abuse in various ways in Brawl. The reason Wario has trouble dancing around his opponents as well is because his horizontal aerial mobility was nerfed significantly from Brawl. It's still quite good, but it was bonkers in Brawl. As far as getting cornered is concerned, Wario can double-jump -> Bike over to the other side on most stages.

You shouldn't be spotdodging Ganon's anything--Slow characters lose to "roll backward" in this game because there's nothing that they can do about it short of a super-risky hard read. There's no need to be reactionary--It's a situation where you lose very little by using a backward roll in neutral. You risk almost nothing and potentially gain a punish on the Dash Attack Ganondorf often uses to press forward. This makes the Dash Attack much less rewarding on average and curbs its general usefulness in spacing.

 

[ShuckleBoard]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-ultimate-smash-4-ruleset-poll-results.402899/#post-19208220
Results from the poll are in and the most popular character is surprise surprise Captain Falcon.

 

[Smog Frog]

wizkick>rolls tho

 

[Charls]

Not to discredit any Ganondorf mains, but this general attitude with Ganon and him "going even" or having little troubles with so many members of the cast solely on the volatility of his toolkit seems like a large overestimation of the character's capabilities. Yes, Ganon will destroy you given the chance in a couple of hits. Yes, no player can attest to perfect execution and deny mistakes will happen. But to assume Ganon won't make those very sort of mistakes or won't be given the proper respect that grappler(-like) characters demand is pretty absurd.

In GG:Xrd for example - and pardon the cross-game comparison - Potemkin, the game's only true grappler, is generally considered to be at the bottom of the cast in terms of competitive viability. His mobility options are not poor, but terrible in a game that prizes freedom of movement (sound familiar?). And yet taking a gander at Japan, one can see a player called F.A.B. dominating other experienced Guilty Gear players with this character. His results speak for himself, but does that automatically assert Potemkin as a well and viable character? Personally no, I do not think so. Potemkin is still a slow, largely built character with the potential to win in a few reads, but smart players will put themselves in a position to minimize said risk and mount their offense around his massive hitboxes accordingly.

Pit won't be running off to grab into your Ftilts or Dtilts. No, he'll be pressuring with arrows and using his generous disjoints to keep Ganondorf out and safely approach. Ike will be hitting with safe on shield Ftilts and Bairs. Peach will be laughing the game out as she hovers with a turnip above and by the time he gets to punish Mario, Ganon will most likely be catching up to his lead if anything. Ganondorf is a scary beast with the potential to wreck almost any character in the game - I would argue every character in the game. However as the relative skill ceiling of Sm4sh's player base increases, so will increase the difficulty for Ganon in a meta were people won't be making as many questionable calls on shields or giving up free stage control or edgeguards to a character with this magnitude of strength.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Slow characters don't lose to roll backwards @ TheReflexWonder . Bad midrange options lose to it, which by far isn't Ganondorf. Roll reads are super safe to do as Ganon due to the burst mobility he has on DA (and Wizkick and Flame Choke). If your opponent shields a DA spaced for a roll, you crossover pretty darn far. Wizkick can punish rolls on reaction too, while Flame Choke for the rare inward roll is not super risky in most matchups.

This is why Ganon beats Link for instance. Link's terrible midrange prevents him from doing anything outside jab range, while Ganon actually outranges him and gimps him on top of that.

 

[warionumbah2]

You also have terrible horizontal air mobility, and Ganon risks next to nothing trying to trap MK's air options with Uair and grounded Wizkick (esp ledge canceled)

If anything Ganon really wants MK in the air where he doesn't have to deal with MK's dashgrab.

MK can literally teleport back onstage and cape away on reaction if Ganon uses his grounded Wizard foot, Ganons ground mobility is atrocious he won't be covering MKs landing options. Falcon is much better at this because even if MK capes away he's fast enough to catch him.

MK will be staying in the air but not exactly above Ganon, then FF back on ground to either punish or try and get momentum. Ganon can't do jack unless he's on BF, once MK gets the lead he can possibly time Ganon out. I've never attempted this since i get hella bored real fast.

Staying in the air lowers the threat, dash grab? That isn't safe tbh, if MK conditions you into shielding or you do something dumb yes he'll use it. But DA is much more reliable and safe.

Out of all the multi jumpers MK has the best aerial speed(i think).

Edit: forgot Jiggly existed tbh

 

[PUK]

Fwiw I think Ganon vs Wario is pretty even in non-custom meta, I would assume the same to be true with customs on.


I'm positive that Ganondorf can beat the following characters in a non-custom metagame:


I'm positive that Ganondorf can NOT beat the following characters in a non-custom metagame:



The other characters I'm not sure about. Characters like Fox and Olimar are probably kinda bad for Ganon but possibly manageable anyway.

What can means? A not so bad MU?

 

[Smog Frog]

> in airspeed, minor nitpick

 

[TheReflexWonder]

wizkick>rolls tho

It doesn't, though. It does 10% on hit without significant KO potential. For even average rolls, if you are outside of D-Tilt's range, you will powershield Ganondorf's Down-B after a roll, and that's assuming the commands for Down-B and the backward roll are pressed at the exact same frame (again, making a hard read); it's even worse for Ganondorf against great rolls like Diddy's or Sheik's. If you miss or they shield, you often get F-Smashed or worse.

Ganondorf can afford to make reads with things like Dash Attack when he's already up close, but the neutral game tends to revolve around picking him apart at a range outside of that.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ganon thoughts:

I dislike fighting MK as Ganon. It's not awful, but I feel overwhelmed in a lot of situations by his dash game and nado threat.

I have no unusual problems fighting Greninja as Ganon. Greninja's thing is that he is really nimble and slippery, but when your entire gameplan revolves on hard reads anyway, "ok whatever."

I wouldn't want to use Ganon against Shulk, but a high reward grab, Flame Choke, and Vision-immune Dark Fists is at least something.

It doesn't, though. It does 10% on hit without significant KO potential. For even average rolls, if you are outside of D-Tilt's range, you will powershield Ganondorf's Down-B after a roll, and that's assuming the commands for Down-B and the backward roll are pressed at the exact same frame (again, making a hard read); it's even worse for Ganondorf against great rolls like Diddy's or Sheik's. If you miss or they shield, you often get F-Smashed or worse.

Wizard's Dropkick does less damage but is way way better as an away-roll punisher. It hits later, but is a magnitude less punishable on block. Even grabbing Ganon is hard.

 

[Ulevo]

You also have terrible horizontal air mobility, and Ganon risks next to nothing trying to trap MK's air options with Uair and grounded Wizkick (esp ledge canceled)

If anything Ganon really wants MK in the air where he doesn't have to deal with MK's dashgrab.

The idea you can deal with Meta Knight's air camping is idealistic. You cannot. Meta Knight has the control. Up air is strong, but it is not disjointed, and you're trying to out prioritize a disjointed frame 4 move. Ganondorf's aerial movement is even slower than Meta Knight's, substantially so. And if you commit to a move incorrectly while we're in the air, Meta Knight drops in to Mach Tornado for 22%.

You misunderstand. Ganondorf does not have the mobility to dictate this match up. He only has the power to equalize the match up should the Meta Knight make a mistake.

 

[irokex13]

Fwiw I think Ganon vs Wario is pretty even in non-custom meta, I would assume the same to be true with customs on.


I'm positive that Ganondorf can beat the following characters in a non-custom metagame:

Don't all of these characters just edge guard Ganon to death? Like, why is this never a factor in talking about Ganon? His recovery is quite terrible, his aerials have poor range and startup outside of uair and nair (and even then he can't afford to trade offstage), and his air speed is poor.

People keep mentioning if he makes a few good reads then he gets a kill. Well, yeah, if I'm outplaying my opponent, I'll get a kill. That's how every character in this game works. And there are many characters who can perform these reads off of safer/faster moves.

It's pretty obvious that Ganon has extreme damage per hit, but as the meta develops and characters start optimizing their BnB's, that damage difference will become kinda irrelevant. For example, if can get 30-40% off of a grab combo, why would they be afraid of Ganon? They're much faster, have a very solid grab game, generally safe, long ranged normals, a good projectile, and excellent edge guarding abilities. What's stopping them from playing safe and chipping at Ganon? You can say "If they mess up", but at this point with the way top tiers are and the unexplored potency of jab lock combos for most characters, any character will punish you extremely hard for messing up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What can means? A not so bad MU?

I'm bad at the numbers thing but I think Ganon has a pretty realistic chance to win these. That also includes -1 matchups in my opinion.

 

[Smog Frog]

what characters get as much out of a footstool that does? footstool->tipman->followup. is there any character this potent with footstools?

 

[bc1910]

> in airspeed, minor nitpick

too

 

[warionumbah2]

too

No, MKs overall mobility specs are greater than Kirby's.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

what characters get as much out of a footstool that does? footstool->tipman->followup. is there any character this potent with footstools?

Outside of punishing ledge jumps (which are too low to the ground to get anything other than aerial Down-B), how would Ganondorf possibly land a footstool on an opponent in a real match? Am I missing something?

 

[Trifroze]

Ganondorf's aerials outrange Yoshi in the air pretty hard and Yoshi doesn't really have safe approach options outside of fair which has slow startup, extends his hurtbox a ton and can be challenged by things like ftilt for an arguably favorable trade. As someone who plays Falcon, Ganondorf's disadvantage vs Yoshi isn't that bad. Try a character who's heavy but also has really fast fall speed like Falcon or Dedede or even DK who's much heavier than Ganondorf with similar fall speed, and you'll notice how the likes of Ganondorf and Bowser actually get comboed less than them, although I'll give you that they have slightly bigger hurtboxes. Still, they'll almost gladly the damage because their survival at high percents is good, and going to about 60-80% quickly versus a character like Yoshi doesn't mean that much. Most good characters can get you there with 2-3 combos.

Now I do think Ganondorf outright dies versus Yoshi offstage and the difference in their aerial mobility is massive, but Ganondorf has edgeguards of his own. All he often needs is one hit, although too bad Yoshi's second jump has super armor.

 

[mimgrim]

too

http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/

MK at 27th with 0.99 air speed.

Kirby at 45th with 0.8 air speed.

So nope.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The idea you can deal with Meta Knight's air camping is idealistic. You cannot. Meta Knight has the control. Up air is strong, but it is not disjointed, and you're trying to out prioritize a disjointed frame 4 move. Ganondorf's aerial movement is even slower than Meta Knight's, substantially so. And if you commit to a move incorrectly while we're in the air, Meta Knight drops in to Mach Tornado for 22%.

You misunderstand. Ganondorf does not have the mobility to dictate this match up. He only has the power to equalize the match up should the Meta Knight make a mistake.

Sorry, which game are we playing again? I thought this was the Smash Bros Wii-U Competitive Discussion.

Ganon's U-air is pretty huge. It will straight up beat Link's D-air or in the very worst case scenario trade. Ganon has good fall speed for trapping air options. If you're literally playing at the height where Ganon actually can't reach you with U-air, you also aren't at a height where you can safely teleport out or easily respond with Tornado, and no, Tornado is realistically not likely to do 22% in this kind of situation. Tornado is AMAZING as a juggle or spotdodge punish, I will give it that. However Ganon frankly doesn't really care much about that. MK probably isn't killing him pre-150% without either a situational gimp setup or F-smash/Down-B, and meanwhile Ganon can end MK's stock at like 90% with tilts in contrast.

And no, I don't misunderstand at all. On paper, a lot of characters can play safer than Ganon in neutral. That's kinda the obvious point to Ganon in the first place. The key thing is, Ganon doesn't actually explicitly need you to make a mistake (as in technical error) to function in neutral, especially not against a character like MK. MK STILL has to deal with decently fast attacks that outrange him blatantly, and you can't simply run away forever, and against a competent player, you're eventually going to get hit at some point on average. The risk/reward favors Ganon in this way. For the relative difficulty he has playing neutral, the reward he gets from it is far more important in this matchup and makes it favorable for him when he actually forces unsafe decisions from Metaknight in order for Metaknight to even consider winning the neutral game in the first place.

 

[MezzoMe]

Ganondorf's moves have actually a pretty good reach for undisjointed, basically because longer limbs=bigger hitboxes..
Also in order for a character to be able to powershield a wizkick initiated at the same time of a roll the toll itself would need to be FAF in frame 15 or before, and I'm pretty sure that no roll does that, DA also punishes on reaction any roll that lasts less than 22 frames.

That being said, te concept of Ganondorf having the advantage is pretty simple:
He has the advantage whenever he can outspace his opponent and as such is able to most of the time convert the neutral into his massively advantaged state.
He has a disadvantage every time the opposite happens and the opponent can safely space him out, resulting in a massively disadvantaged neutral.

 

[Ulevo]

Sorry, which game are we playing again? I thought this was the Smash Bros Wii-U Competitive Discussion.

Ganon's U-air is pretty huge. It will straight up beat Link's D-air or in the very worst case scenario trade. Ganon has good fall speed for trapping air options. If you're literally playing at the height where Ganon actually can't reach you with U-air, you also aren't at a height where you can safely teleport out or easily respond with Tornado, and no, Tornado is realistically not likely to do 22% in this kind of situation. Tornado is AMAZING as a juggle or spotdodge punish, I will give it that. However Ganon frankly doesn't really care much about that. MK probably isn't killing him pre-150% without either a situational gimp setup or F-smash/Down-B, and meanwhile Ganon can end MK's stock at like 90% with tilts in contrast.

And no, I don't misunderstand at all. On paper, a lot of characters can play safer than Ganon in neutral. That's kinda the obvious point to Ganon in the first place. The key thing is, Ganon doesn't actually explicitly need you to make a mistake to function in neutral, especially not against a character like MK. MK STILL has to deal with decently fast attacks that outrange him blatantly, and you can't simply run away forever, and against a competent player, you're eventually going to get hit at some point on average. The risk/reward favors Ganon in this way. For the relative difficulty he has playing neutral, the reward he gets from it is far more important in this matchup and makes it favorable for him when he actually forces unsafe decisions from Metaknight in order for Metaknight to even consider winning the neutral game in the first place.

I apologize, clearly I've wasted both of our time with this debate. If you believe it takes Meta Knight 150% on Ganondorf to reliably kill him outside of situational circumstances then we're not going to make any important headway in this debate. When you learn the character I'll be happy to take this up again.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Does anyone know a lot about Megaman? What's the best way to shut down his neutral? Right now I'm kind of just playing mad lame with Pikachu until I can create an opening but I don't know much about Megaman and the matchup needs work.

Edit: A few people have already said this, I'd like to reiterate that while Ganon's edgeguarding is great he can't recover against a lot of characters either. Ganon cannot always live to like 200%

 

[meleebrawler]

Have you ever actually played the matchup though? There's so much more to it than egg toss. Just one successful fair by Yoshi can link into strings that deal like half a stock's worth of percent. Fair -> jab 1 -> dtilt -> dash attack is a thing and it puts Ganon in a position where Yoshi can easily frame tap him with Egg Toss into just about everything. It's a mix of Yoshi's disgusting damage output from an advantaged position and Ganon being particularly bad when put in a disadvantaged position that makes this matchup so bad. There's hardly a character in this game that has as much room for error against Ganondorf as Yoshi does.

I never said the matchup was even or advantaged for Ganon, obviously eggs + blatantly superior mobility and
comparable damage output to Ganon are problematic. But aside from those first two assets, Ganon can
answer to anything Yoshi tries fairly comfortably. Yoshi's attacks don't really have the speed or range to truly abuse Ganon.