Character Competitive Impressions

[Spinosaurus]

Fruits also heal Wario and add a second to the waft, so they're not the best against him.

He can eat the hydrant if it's coming down, but that's not reliable. He can safely knock it away with FTilt though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Catching the Bonus Fruit is much more beneficial (Z-Drops are really good as Wario, and it completely shuts down a strong part of Pac-Man's game), but you can use Neutral-B to eat and heal off of Bonus Fruit, yeah. You can eat the Hydrant, too. It won't heal you, but it does prevent it from being a threat to you if he sends it toward you.

 

[Nu~]

Wario eats everything and Pac-Man looks like pizza, so Wario would automatically win.

Still, can't his Bite be used to "counter" Bonus Fruit and can he eat the Hydrant? Dear lord, his dentist and gastroenterologist must be having nightmares dealing with Wario.

I know that can't eat the hydrant standing upright, and the bonus fruit don't travel linearly enough for wario to reliably eat them. Every fuit can be thrown in a way to bounce on his head and it's would be dangerous for him to pull out bite in mid range while we are running behind our fruit for follow ups.

@ TheReflexWonder
Our damage output is all in the fruit and traps man. One galaxian hit can lead to 40% at low to mid percentages. I understand that wario can weave in and out superbly, but do you really believe that he can just dodge us all match?
And then how are you approaching safely for the waft?

 

[Ffamran]

How is Wario's grab game which I did mention, but nobody really said anything. This was a good day to start the Wario MU discussion the Falco boards.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Diddy is definitely still top 5. At least until people actually make an attempt to learn item fundamentals for the Diddy matchup he's going to be a major player.

 

[Shaya]

Most overrated? Nope, as long as banana > F Smash works, we good F Air and U Air are still great moves in their own right. Diddy simply has one of the best, if not the best kit there is. Too many tools to be used in too many situations that I doubt he's ever gonna be less than Top 5. Right now, he's definitely Top 3 if not still the best.

: Still see most pre-patch Diddy tournament contenders losing their first rounds and then switching to Diddy and winning so it's hard for me to see how this character is seen as outside of top 5 by any virtue other than believing other characters were remotely comparable to Diddy's strength pre-patch (I want the stuff they're smoking)
: Despite all the "Sheik Armageddon" we read about, where are the Sheik's winning tournaments that weren't doing well before? (or what Sheik players are doing better now than before? I'm not truly aware of any) In Japan; Rain and Nietono post-patch are doing worse in results than pre-patch, Rain opting to go back to Diddy just like everyone else when he loses (and doing better). It isn't an easy transition, more time is probably essential.


I really wonder what the Diddy vs Sheik match up is right now, one of those things I just haven't seen since this patch against top mains. Obviously ZeRo beating all da sheiks still with Diddy isn't exactly conclusive.... But what's really keeping Diddy in check? Luigi maybe?
Honestly Sonic looks the most dangerous as their mains seem to be beating every diddy (post-patch) and sheik they ever come across, but he probably struggles in some match ups due to priority issues/lack of projectiles, but that's some goooood metagame.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

While we're at it, Reflex, how do you think Greninja does against Wario? He's one of those MUs that I never understood how it worked.

I'm not quite sure. Greninja has the speed and disjoints to consistently threaten Wario, but he doesn't do much damage per exchange, and Wario thrives on taking advantage of missed precision. Greninja also struggles to recover reliably against Wario, as well. I haven't played the matchup extensively, but my gut tells me it's even-ish, and perhaps slightly in Wario's favor, but it may get better for Greninja over time as they get used to maintaining pressure in ways that Wario can't reliably fight back against.

He has to keep the pressure on, even if he's not on top of Wario the whole time. He has the tools to do it, for sure, but Wario often wins the war of attrition, and limited damage output makes it hard to prevent that from happening.

 

[san.]

What are in your opinion Ike's best customs? I like the upgraded Eruption, both Side B customs, Aether Drive and Smash Counter most personally.

Since Ike relies on both his side and upB for recovery, the combination of the two changes the style of recovery and how Ike responds to opponents offstage. Recovery, handling offstage, and offensive strengths often change depending on which side and up specials are used. This is why when looking at which upB is used, you have to look at the sideB as well. Many Ike mains just don't like the style difference from offstage play than what they're used to with default aether.

Close combat side B may go farther than the default fully charged before the extra momentum kicks in, but it doesn't go very far at all uncharged. This makes it so that it has somewhat poor synergy with aether wave up B recovery-wise (even though they're decent offensively).

Close combat has much better synergy with aether drive, while the default side B has better synergy with aether wave. Default aether is good with both of them. The super armor side B can only be used with aether drive to remain viable.


Aether drive is good since it lets you play without having to worry as much about your double jump. Aether wave is fast goes nearly as high as the default, and launches an reflectable projectile that deals shield damage, but it doesn't have that great of a synergy with close combat. Both aether wave and aether drive can stage spike easily and abuse ledge vulnerability. Default aether has the best versatility and reverse aether is still decent.

Close combat has more endlag and doesn't deal as much damage, making it tougher to use offensively. It seems best suited for landing traps to extend strings or to force respect from opponents who keep throwing out aerials. Default side B can build up some kill power fully charged and has a more versatile recovery. Its biggest problem is that it generally does poor damage and misses all the time if it triggers vs opponents above and below him. The super armor side B is purely an up close punisher, kind of like counter. Unfortunately, super armor only triggers once it begins to charge on the ground after 18 frames or so. The super armor doesn't kick in early enough or in the air, so I see it as best used as an alternative to eruption near the edge, or as a pseudo followup after a throw or aerial if you jump right in the opponent's face.

All 3 eruptions are useful. Eruption 1 charges quickly. Tempest is good for disruption and gimps, charges the quickest, and lingers the most when fully charged. Eruption 3 has more end lag and doesn't kill unless charged, but it is the easiest to hit with long lasting hitboxes and a purely vertical knockback.

Sometimes, tempest feels best since you can blow people away. Sometimes, eruption 3 is best because if you're hitting people with tempest, you'd be hitting them with a powerful eruption in the same situation. Sometimes, eruption1 is best when you only throw them offstage and have a chance to hit them with a kill move right off the bat vs. a predictable recovery. Eruption can hit any ledgegrab attempt from below with 5-7 frames of leeway, making the default quite decent with good timing (furious eruption is 11-16 and tempest is 15-23 frames of lingering hitboxes depending on the charge)

Counter1 is decent vs recoveries and smash attacks, but bad vs quick moves. Paralyzing counter is good vs quick moves and good vs recoveries (because it attacks faster), but bad against smash attacks (rewards-wise) and is harder to pull off in general. Smash counter is great against smash attacks, but terrible against everything else.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I know that can't eat the hydrant standing upright, and the bonus fruit don't travel linearly enough for wario to reliably eat them. Every fuit can be thrown in a way to bounce on his head and it's would be dangerous for him to pull out bite in mid range while we are running behind our fruit for follow ups.

@ TheReflexWonder
Our damage output is all in the fruit and traps man. One galaxian hit can lead to 40% at low to mid percentages. I understand that wario can weave in and out superbly, but do you really believe that he can just dodge us all match?
And then how are you approaching safely for the waft?

All the more reason to catch it instead. I understand that Pac-Man would be looking for Wario to be preoccupied before throwing Neutral-B his way, but every second you hold it is a second Wario is charging Waft, so he doesn't care.

I do believe that Wario can dodge Pac-Man well enough for any damage incurred as a result to be less significant than the stock-ending Waft. It's also worth noting that Wario loses nothing by going with an incredibly defensive playstyle while waiting for Waft, since he's not great at approaching to begin with and his pokes work best (and generally well; he has actively good pokes) when he doesn't overextend himself. Pac-Man isn't fast enough to reliably punish smart use of Wario's Neutral-B even when it whiffs, and trades are perfectly fine when Wario's main KO option is doing that way, wayyy earlier than Pac-Man's. Landing KO moves on Wario is also very difficult for Pac-Man, often causing Rage to ruin your day earlier than expect on things like B-Air, F-Tilt, U-Smash, or (most notably) Down-B.

Wafts are relatively easy to land offstage on Pac-Man; anything else is just gravy. Wario can go super-deep for edgeguards, has super armor on Waft, and hitting an object (either a Bike carried offstage or Pac-Man's Forward-B pellet) causes the Waft hitbox to linger for an extra -twenty- frames.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How is Wario's grab game which I did mention, but nobody really said anything. This was a good day to start the Wario MU discussion the Falco boards.

He has a rather good grab as a result of Dash Attack-Cancel Grab/Roll Cancel Grab; he has the second largest distance increase (second to Mac, whose grab is still bad even if his throws are alright).

His throws aren't super-great, but they function alright enough. D-Throw deals 8% and puts people in a precarious position; they can avoid the need to tech by either spending a mid-air jump or using an aerial, but Wario is able to put immediate pressure on them regardless of what move they choose. Its effectiveness varies greatly depending on how safe the opponent is after their ideal response. Near the ledge, it's also great for getting opponents to grab the ledge, which is a situation that Wario is probably the best in the game at taking advantage of. I probably use D-Throw the most.

U-Throw deals solid damage (11%) and allows you to chase their landing for characters that are bad in the air.

F-Throw is a solid KO throw option and is affected a good deal by Rage.

 

[Waroh]

I know that can't eat the hydrant standing upright

He can eat the hydrant if it's coming down, but that's not reliable. He can safely knock it away with FTilt though.

Wario actually can eat the hydrant when it has landed, it's just you need to be at a certain distance. Here are some picture examples:


Here's the distance which you can eat it at.

And here is where you cannot:

 

[Pazx]

You have it completely backwards. One dude actually bothered to play this ridiculous character and already has tournament results. Imagine what is going to happen when he becomes popular and his meta explodes.

Answer: the character gets figured out and he stops having success at the highest level of play (sadly). Default height and weight Brawler is a limited character, as is tiny Mii Brawler but possibly to a lesser extent. I don't like to use the word gimmick but I think as the game progresses we'll see fewer and fewer Brawlers able to overcome the characters shortcomings against high level opponents with matchup experience.

You might want to sit down for this one: for all of their similarities, Average Brawler and Tiny Brawler have different MU spreads than one another. So in essence, the best Mii Brawler players are going to use both Average and Tiny Brawler to their advantage, depending on who they face. If you're looking for specific characters as to which character does well against specific characters, I could probably go on, but I'd rather wait for the Custom metagame to develop (especially with EVO around the corner) before making concrete suggestions. Examples, though: I personally think Tiny Brawler handles characters like Sheik and Sonic better than Average Brawler, but Average Brawler probably has the advantage against characters like Diddy Kong and Mario. Before I'm bombarded with "WELL I WENT TO XANADU AND FOUGHT X AND YOU'VE NEVER PLAYED X SO YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED", I've played with Tiny Brawler for almost three months now and have entered both online and offline tournaments with him, so I'm speaking from both a personal understanding of the character and a practical understanding. One thing's for sure, for all the conjecture about Mii Brawler in this thread, I'm excited to see how this all actually plays out at EVO!

Yes to your entire post, but double yes to this part. I hope top Mii Brawler mains (you know who you are) take this into account.

Diddy for most overrated character post-patch imo. He's still a strong counter vs many characters though, including some good ones, which still makes him very threatening for certain MUs.

The definitive guide on Diddy Kong's tier placement.
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-19200283

Standing height Falco and taller Diddy is OP. Shorter then Falco and Diddy is aight.

I lol'd

 

[Cassio]

: Still see most pre-patch Diddy tournament contenders losing their first rounds and then switching to Diddy and winning so it's hard for me to see how this character is seen as outside of top 5 by any virtue other than believing other characters were remotely comparable to Diddy's strength pre-patch (I want the stuff they're smoking)
: Despite all the "Sheik Armageddon" we read about, where are the Sheik's winning tournaments that weren't doing well before? (or what Sheik players are doing better now than before? I'm not truly aware of any) In Japan; Rain and Nietono post-patch are doing worse in results than pre-patch, Rain opting to go back to Diddy just like everyone else when he loses (and doing better). It isn't an easy transition, more time is probably essential.


I really wonder what the Diddy vs Sheik match up is right now, one of those things I just haven't seen since this patch against top mains. Obviously ZeRo beating all da sheiks still with Diddy isn't exactly conclusive.... But what's really keeping Diddy in check? Luigi maybe?
Honestly Sonic looks the most dangerous as their mains seem to be beating every diddy (post-patch) and sheik they ever come across, but he probably struggles in some match ups due to priority issues/lack of projectiles, but that's some goooood metagame.

Heres my issue with this perspective (quoting shaya but its meant more generally). I understand and acknowledge this is how many people think, but its not something I agree with. The reason being that personally, Im not the biggest fan of arguments based heavily on results over analysis + theory. I acknowledge it as a perspective people have and in the past weighed its benefits. Eventually I came to the conclusion that if results were the central component of ranking characters, its better to eliminate argument completely and create a list based fully and accurately on just results, any discussion would just taint the picture that results would paint. I certainly think such a list of pure data is very valuable.

Discussion then is better left for analysis and theory of the current meta, and good analysis will consider results but not be hamstrung by them (which I feel happens a lot, at that point the purity of a result based list will always be superior).

Admittedly a post by Armada helped me to fine tune my thoughts on this, which Ill include here since its better stated then I would write now.

Was reading through the bigger part of this thread and for me it seems like the brawl community have the same "problem" as the melee community has when it comes to tierlists. WHY is everyone putting so much focus on results?

If results is THAT important why is it even necessary to vote in the first place?
Results are fact and personal preference is a opinion. I don't understand why the system should be based on opinons when everyone use results (facts) as the clear argument.

However I have a lot of times said when I have been talking about this topic with melee players that I don't think results are THAT important when it comes to tierlists.

Of course it all comes down to what the community want the tierlist to represant (maybe it excist some generall rule for it I don't know) but I do think some kind of "human level"/potencial should be what the tierlist represent. By putting so much effort into the results you basically just say who the top players are without thinking about how good the chars truley are.

I also think the "lazy" way of thinking that becomes a results of this "results-based" lists is a problem for many players. Because you don't put as much time to understand

- What works in every single situation.
-How to cover options
- How to edgeguard/recover
- Punish game
- deffensive parts
-etc

If you think about that enough you will most likely get a better clue on how good the chars are. You will also UNDERSTAND them much better. So you will also improve more as a player because you now know how to play because you have more knowledge.

I hate to use myself as a example but in this case I do think it is a pretty good one and I don't follow the brawl community so I don't know any really good example (even if it exists a lot of them).

Me vs Hbox in melee is a perfect example (as I think many brawlers at least heard about on Apex 2012). Before I started to use Y link vs Hbox basically every single player thought the MU was not good at all for Y link. Y link has for such a long time been consider a very bad char. He also have NO results that shows he could have any good MUs against the better chars (Would say Y link vs puff is very even)

After I won A LOT of people talked about how Y link CLEARLY won the MU based on 2 ****ing games where Hbox had no experience in the MU at all. I think this set proved a lot when it comes to how people think when it comes to MUs/tierlists.

Instead of trying to really understand why something works/doesn't work they use results instead cause it's easier. But a easier path is many times not the best path and as a RESULT most people do not improve as much as they could do!

 

[Ffamran]

He has a rather good grab as a result of Dash Attack-Cancel Grab/Roll Cancel Grab; he has the second largest distance increase (second to Mac, whose grab is still bad even if his throws are alright).

His throws aren't super-great, but they function alright enough. D-Throw deals 8% and puts people in a precarious position; they can avoid the need to tech by either spending a mid-air jump or using an aerial, but Wario is able to put immediate pressure on them regardless of what move they choose. Its effectiveness varies greatly depending on how safe the opponent is after their ideal response. Near the ledge, it's also great for getting opponents to grab the ledge, which is a situation that Wario is probably the best in the game at taking advantage of. I probably use D-Throw the most.

U-Throw deals solid damage (11%) and allows you to chase their landing for characters that are bad in the air.

F-Throw is a solid KO throw option and is affected a good deal by Rage.

The fact his standing, dash, and pivot grabs all come out at the same frame already makes his grab game good. A command grab too? Wario's like the grappler archetype of this series and the speedy one compared to Bowser and Ganondorf. He's like the judoka to Bowser's pro wrestler to Ganondorf's er... evil grabby guy.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario actually can eat the hydrant when it has landed, it's just you need to be at a certain distance. Here are some picture examples:

Wow that actually makes so much sense. This is really useful.

 

[Shaya]

@ Cassio
I refer to results to back my understandings/theory. I also know the weight results have for selling theory.
Not sure how much more I can explicitly state "Sheik is not the goat, back air nerf was BIG" to argue against people stuck in "theory" where needles and fair 95:5 the entire cast or practicality that definitely hasn't materialized yet. I'm always out to boil any notion and every idea.

As it's not truly feasible for an individual to really weigh the result of these now "theoretical impacts", I want to see results.
Yes I know you're quoting me and referring to others in generality.

 

[Cassio]

Though it might have been a bit critical it wasnt intended as a criticism of your view, it was an explanation of an alternate perspective. I wont dig too deep into the subject since its perhaps too meta to talk about the meta of a metagame thread, and I know some people will mostly or only take results as evidence (im guilty of ceding to others desire for this too). Last thing Ill say in regards to results is that the "why" is significantly more important then the "what" when it comes to analysis. Nor is it necessarily concerned with whats materialized as far as results >strictly< go. At the very least this explains my perspective though (in which another view is, ESAM is a good player but not yet a good smash 4 pikachu). And perhaps why Zero made a video about the games 5 most potent characters that werent necessarily who he thought were the best 5. Analysis at its heart though is subjective, so I acknowledge what I figure could all be wrong.

I do agree that any idea should be beaten (though methods may conflict) to see how it shapes up.

 

[Shaya]

I should consider replacing the use of the word "results" with perhaps "examples of high-level play". I'm not going to think ZeRo beating every * except Luigi means Diddy beats every character... bar Luigi. I spend my Smash study time on matches and when there's a change I just think of all the situations where I'm aware it was applicable and then look for "results" (often playing it myself too), as in those situations happening within tournament, win or loss overall matters less (human variability seems to be way too important a factor in this early meta now, we have to try to ignore it). For example, Larry dropping jabs on ZeRo is pretty unfortunate to see but it doesn't make me think "Oh Fox can't jab lock diddy kong", that match up could very well be even or in Fox' favour when I try to speculate how matches would've gone without technical mistakes. But hopefully there's a noticeable contrast with how I frame uncertainty to many an "assertion".

 

[thehard]

ConCon got 1 game off ZeRo's Shiek before ZeRo swept him at this Oomba (in Grands). Better than last time. Earlier ConCon got 3-2'd by K9's Shiek and then returned the favor in Losers. MU might not be hopeless after all.

 

[Trifroze]

Just how hard did Sonic's back throw get nerfed? I'm unaware of how early it killed pre-patch but now it barely kills at 150% from the edge of the stage.

On a related note, I'd expect Fox to lose his jab lock in the future as well. Although a solid character, a lot of his success revolves around the free damage and kills he gets from a 2 frame attack. I think a few characters will go past him in everyone's rankings once that happens.

 

[Radical Larry]

If anyone wants to speak range of an attack, Ganondorf has the most absolutely absurd grab range for his UpB. Before the entire move completes, the grab of it has a range that is almost comparable to Marth's huge grab range from Melee, but more so vertically. He's capable of grabbing an opponent, increasing the height by 1.5x, and add that onto him being able to bounce off the same height as his recovery, it's an impressive recovery if landed.

Hey, I don't know if anyone's discovered this yet, but, if you hold Down and use any aerial attack with the C-Stick, you automatically fast fall with the attack. This is great for a character like Ganondorf, as it certainly gave a surprise to any of my opponents with a D-Air. If anyone did discover this, what is it called?

 

[Cassio]

I should consider replacing the use of the word "results" with perhaps "examples of high-level play". I'm not going to think ZeRo beating every * except Luigi means Diddy beats every character... bar Luigi. I spend my Smash study time on matches and when there's a change I just think of all the situations where I'm aware it was applicable and then look for "results" (often playing it myself too), as in those situations happening within tournament, win or loss overall matters less (human variability seems to be way too important a factor in this early meta now, we have to try to ignore it). For example, Larry dropping jabs on ZeRo is pretty unfortunate to see but it doesn't make me think "Oh Fox can't jab lock diddy kong", that match up could very well be even or in Fox' favour when I try to speculate how matches would've gone without technical mistakes. But hopefully there's a noticeable contrast with how I frame uncertainty to many an "assertion".

I feel like youd do really good commentary for major events, lol. Im actually cautious or occasionally avoid watching top level matches for characters I'm exploring because Im afraid of letting their bias unconsciously slip into my discovery.

 

[Blobface]

Wario's like the grappler archetype of this series and the speedy one compared to Bowser and Ganondorf. He's like the judoka to Bowser's pro wrestler to Ganondorf's er... evil grabby guy.

Thank you for the Sig.

Not sure how much more I can explicitly state "Sheik is not the goat, back air nerf was BIG" to argue against people stuck in "theory" where needles and fair 95:5 the entire cast or practicality that definitely hasn't materialized yet. I'm always out to boil any notion and every idea.

Do that many people really find Sheik that bad, @ Shaya ? Needles and F-air are annoying, sure, but they're not some kind of insurmountable mountain to most characters. Sheik loses 99% of what makes here threatening in the % range where F-air doesn't combo into itself and F-tilt doesn't kill, a % range that was previously partially covered by B-air + Bouncing Fish. Now she only has Bouncing Fish for that % range.

 

[Djent]

Theory vs. results discussions are weird. Theory is absolutely crucial to understanding anything about this game, but it also needs to be "checked" against what is actually occurring. If there is a mismatch between theory and result, it could mean that any number of things are happening:

-difference in fundamental player skill
-disparities in matchup knowledge
-degree of character development
-playstyles and individual player psychologies
-ability x MU interactions (low- vs. mid- vs. high-level play)
-some element(s) of the theory are wrong

People (rightfully) note that results are confounded by the factors I mention (and possibly more that I've forgotten). But there's no reason in principle why results can't also compel us to consider that our theories are wrong. Sometimes we'll identify confounds and conclude that they do a better job at accounting for the theory-result disparity than any supposed theoretical error. But other times, these confounds might not be present or otherwise "balance out" in a way that leaves us rationally obligated to reexamine our theorycraft.

TL;DR All this **** forms a "web of belief" (thanks W.V.O. Quine). There is no set formula for repairing a damaged web.

 

[PK Gaming]

I know he generally struggles against disjoints (and Sheik iirc), but who does Wario do well against?

Completely stomps most of the characters that don't matter. Has decent matchups against the staples, and does okay against top tier. Wario vs Sheik is miserable, Wario vs Falcon is bad, but with customs Wario has has a pretty good shot of running it back (rose scented waft and fast bike are kuso). Does pretty good against Diddy, Luigi and Ness.

The waft is basically the ultimate trump card. Let's him theoretically win any losing matchup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've always had more trouble approaching Diddy than approaching Sheik with Wario, myself. More fast, safe disjoints means that Wario has to respect more space. I don't think either matchup is terrible, though; just gotta take your time.

I used to think Falcon was a bad matchup, but I'm starting to change my mind. Falcon's limited tools for opening you up make him pretty susceptible to counterpokes. Neutral-B is great, Forward-B Bike ditching is pretty safe in general, and it's not that hard to edgeguard him, either. Stick out moves to trade or stop him (and roll backward from time to time), and always use your great aerial mobility to get back to neutral when you're in a disadvantaged state; if he doesn't manage to get started, it doesn't seem bad for Wario, though I hate fighting against such speed (that's more a personal problem than a Wario-centric problem, though).

 

[Radical Larry]

Completely stomps most of the characters that don't matter. Has decent matchups against the staples, and does okay against top tier. Wario vs Sheik is miserable, Wario vs Falcon is bad, but with customs Wario has has a pretty good shot of running it back (rose scented waft and fast bike are kuso). Does pretty good against Diddy, Luigi and Ness.

The waft is basically the ultimate trump card. Let's him theoretically win any losing matchup.

Well, that is if you can land it. It's one of the four hardest-to-land moves in a read, beaten only by Rest, KO Uppercut and Warlock Punch. The attack requires a read of epic proportions to really hit, and it takes SO long for it to charge up. If you don't have a projectile character as an opponent, good luck charging it up.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Disagree. It has a pretty large hitbox, has super armor starting on Frame 5, can be used in the air, has no negative repercussions on a miss, can be used for a super-deep edgeguard, combos after sourspot N-Air and can cover the ledge in a way that catches multiple ledge options or the single frame of ledge vulnerability with relative ease. Getting opponents offstage is often all that it takes; it's much easier to land near the ledge than anywhere else, since you can make the hitbox linger for 22 frames by hitting an object like your Bike. Also, with Wario's great recovery and throws for getting people onto the ledge, as well as people's need to approach you to deal with fewer Wafts, makes it so hanging out near the ledge is no great risk.

As people get more accustomed to using it in that situation, it will be even more relevant than it already is. Wafts at the ledge will become pretty much guaranteed against a good chunk of the cast.

 

[PK Gaming]

I've always had more trouble approaching Diddy than approaching Sheik with Wario, myself. More fast, safe disjoints means that Wario has to respect more space. I don't think either matchup is terrible, though; just gotta take your time.

I used to think Falcon was a bad matchup, but I'm starting to change my mind. Falcon's limited tools for opening you up make him pretty susceptible to counterpokes. Neutral-B is great, Forward-B Bike ditching is pretty safe in general, and it's not that hard to edgeguard him, either. Stick out moves to trade or stop him, and always use your great aerial mobility to get back to neutral when you're in a disadvantaged state; if he doesn't manage to get started, it doesn't seem bad for Wario, though I hate fighting against such speed (that's more a personal problem than a Wario-centric problem, though).

Ah, that's good to hear that you labbed out the CF matchup. And yeah, I hate fighting against his brand of rushdown.

Well, that is if you can land it. It's one of the four hardest-to-land moves in a read, beaten only by Rest, KO Uppercut and Warlock Punch. The attack requires a read of epic proportions to really hit, and it takes SO long for it to charge up. If you don't have a projectile character as an opponent, good luck charging it up.

You have a profound misunderstanding of the Waft if you think that it's that hard to land. It largely depends on the matchup, but a 5* frame move with decent (if not stupid if we're talking customs) range is not at all difficult to land.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The thing about camping for Waft that many people seem to miss is that Wario has always functioned most effectively with counterpoking. Hit-and-run, dodge and punish. When you camp for Waft, the aim isn't just to avoid the opponent, it's to minimize damage on yourself, and that often comes in the form of proper defense. Things like his ridiculously low-cooldown Neutral-B, D-Tilt, retreating F-Air, Forward-B shenanigans, D-Throw, Dash Attack, and his incredible ledgeguard options combine to stuff approaches well and set up for low-risk punishes that get you damage while keeping you safe. That means that camping for Waft involves playing in (what is likely) the most optimal way for Wario in the first place.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Well, that is if you can land it. It's one of the four hardest-to-land moves in a read, beaten only by Rest, KO Uppercut and Warlock Punch. The attack requires a read of epic proportions to really hit, and it takes SO long for it to charge up. If you don't have a projectile character as an opponent, good luck charging it up.

Waft, Rest, and KO Uppercut are fast enough to not be too hard to land off a read, it's just that all 3 are moves you really don't want to whiff on. None of those belong anywhere near Warlock Punch in terms of how hard they are to land, as WP only really works if your opponent charges right into your super armor like an idiot with a laggy move, while the other moves can be used to punish far smaller slip-ups

 

[|RK|]

Well, that is if you can land it. It's one of the four hardest-to-land moves in a read, beaten only by Rest, KO Uppercut and Warlock Punch. The attack requires a read of epic proportions to really hit, and it takes SO long for it to charge up. If you don't have a projectile character as an opponent, good luck charging it up.

Kirby's charged hammers, too. Also, Ganon utilt. Falcon Punch, too... Maybe Force Palm grab?

 

[BBC7]

Kirby's charged hammers, too. Also, Ganon utilt. Falcon Punch, too... Maybe Force Palm grab?

Don't forget Luigi taunt.

Wario Waft isn't that hard to land though. Good speed, reasonable hitbox, it doesn't compare to stuff like Warlock Punch.

 

[Luco]

Theory vs. results discussions are weird. Theory is absolutely crucial to understanding anything about this game, but it also needs to be "checked" against what is actually occurring. If there is a mismatch between theory and result, it could mean that any number of things are happening:

-difference in fundamental player skill
-disparities in matchup knowledge
-degree of character development
-playstyles and individual player psychologies
-ability x MU interactions (low- vs. mid- vs. high-level play)
-some element(s) of the theory are wrong

People (rightfully) note that results are confounded by the factors I mention (and possibly more that I've forgotten). But there's no reason in principle why results can't also compel us to consider that our theories are wrong. Sometimes we'll identify confounds and conclude that they do a better job at accounting for the theory-result disparity than any supposed theoretical error. But other times, these confounds might not be present or otherwise "balance out" in a way that leaves us rationally obligated to reexamine our theorycraft.

TL;DR All this **** forms a "web of belief" (thanks W.V.O. Quine). There is no set formula for repairing a damaged web.

I totally agree; and quickly, I'd also like to mention that my belief is that a tier list should reflect something that's real and actual. Theory could take you as far as TAS levels but a tier list based on that kind of speculation isn't going to be particularly helpful to anyone. In Brawl, characters such as Wario had CG infinites or near infinites on DK and Bowser but the timing required near frame-perfect buffering to achieve it. Diddy had footstool banana infinites on everyone, ZSS had Dsmash --> footstool infinites... etc.

All of these perfected should have polarised the game in an ICs-level kind of way, but the precision required to do them wasn't seen in major sets consistently if at all. Funnily enough, Pika's QA infinite (which was actually done to Nairo by ESAM in quite a famous set) represents one of these kinds of high-tech options that almost had relevance.

What I'm trying to say is there's a slightly blurred line between where theory 'works' and showcases a match-up and when it becomes outright unrealistic, and I think results are needed to temper theory as a grounding point in reality - after all, this applies to the real world, where our theory supplements our reality which acts a basis for our theory. I think our tier list needs relevance to be useful, and that's where I spin my "web" from.

 

[|RK|]

Don't forget Luigi taunt.

Wario Waft isn't that hard to land though. Good speed, reasonable hitbox, it doesn't compare to stuff like Warlock Punch.

Honestly, Warlock Punch is at the top. Falcon Punch can at least find use as a style punish over partial-charge F-Smash every now and again. Warlock Punch is just too slow for anything but a shield break. That and punishing Ganon utilt.

...Maybe an un-cancelled Extreme speed on stage?

 

[Luigi player]

: Still see most pre-patch Diddy tournament contenders losing their first rounds and then switching to Diddy and winning so it's hard for me to see how this character is seen as outside of top 5 by any virtue other than believing other characters were remotely comparable to Diddy's strength pre-patch (I want the stuff they're smoking)
: Despite all the "Sheik Armageddon" we read about, where are the Sheik's winning tournaments that weren't doing well before? (or what Sheik players are doing better now than before? I'm not truly aware of any) In Japan; Rain and Nietono post-patch are doing worse in results than pre-patch, Rain opting to go back to Diddy just like everyone else when he loses (and doing better). It isn't an easy transition, more time is probably essential.

Not sure where you have this from, but Sheiks are doing really well in Japan. Rain is now kinda co-maining both, but mostly uses Sheik. If he loses with Sheik he switches to Diddy. If he loses with Diddy he switches to Sheik.
Only thing happening to him was losing against Ranais Villager, but he must've tried Diddy as well (dunno about that though since GF wasn't recorded on the stream?)... today he just won another Tourney with going probably almost only Sheik. He used Diddy in GF game 1 and won, lost game 2, then won game 3 with Sheik (WFs he won 2:0 with Sheik, but the last game was last stock last hit, which might be why he wanted to try Diddy).

Nietono has used Fox in the last result I saw from him, which is why he placed poorly. Dunno about today, but I'm still guessing Fox... maybe he just doesn't like the idea of playing the best character xD or he just wants to try a new one he thinks is amazing / wants to have some variety / fun. They're not playing for money or something, just for honor, so why shouldn't he try something new if he wants to.

As for Diddy... that does indeed happen sometimes, but there's also many more Diddys getting beat either way, or losing more matches period. Though it should be pretty clear that he's still great. He might have a few MUs he loses now though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Not sure which matchups Diddy now loses, cause to me it feels most matchups are the same as before. Only ones who got harder to me are: . In all other matchups, still has most of his tools ready to deal with anything thrown at him. Other matchups which are harder than usual (meaning that it's more or less even, cause ****stomps a lot of characters) where already harder matchups pre-patch, as and . I doubt any of these matchups are far from even though, and I doubt actually loses to anyone. There are no definate 40-60 matchups against Diddy. And the only matchup that might be 45-55 is Sheik, maybe Luigi.

 

[Shaya]

@ Luigi player Komorikiri took out Rain (sheik + diddy?) at KSB, didn't know nietono had been using Fox lately.

There's also this http://piosuma.blog.jp/archives/24157620.html, their tables/ranking get updated frequently. Rain currently has Umebura 12 and KSB at least as his non-victories, but U12 may have been prepatch?

Do that many people really find Sheik that bad, @ Shaya ? Needles and F-air are annoying, sure, but they're not some kind of insurmountable mountain to most characters. Sheik loses 99% of what makes here threatening in the % range where F-air doesn't combo into itself and F-tilt doesn't kill, a % range that was previously partially covered by B-air + Bouncing Fish. Now she only has Bouncing Fish for that % range.

iono, I'm hearing my fair share of "SHEIKS OUR WORST MATCH UP" "why don't I/you just main Sheik, she has no bad match ups", "stufffffffff breaks the game" and my favourite (although not too well maintained) "wow Sakurai why would you nerf Diddy that much and barely touch Sheik?"

It's irony filled words though, early WiiU I was proclaiming all hatred of Sheik, but her "dominating tools" are not as far gone from other characters as I expected (+ diddy continued to develop far stronger potency than her very quickly), slow and steady wins the race against Sheik and the only thing getting in the way of that is timers (IMO she's still the most likely character to have a time out). Optimal AC Fair has a specific timing that players are already becoming adjusted to perfect shielding on occasion (her sh ff is 28 frames, fair ACs in 11), needles don't lead to follow ups (bar in the air) and aren't remotely shield destroying (customs withstanding). I think she's been nerfed in the wrong areas / overnerfed in those she has been. People should be excited about destroying their local Sheiks (technically I'm the local Sheik )

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In my experience Wario has a disadvantage against Fox and slight disadvantages against Diddy, Sonic and maybe Sheik. He probably has a whole lot of even matchups but I admittedly have like no experience with customs Wario so it's kind of up in the air. He's reeeeeeeeally good against campy ass mofo chars like Villager, DHD and Pac-Man though because he can just straight up cut through their crap and thy suck t approaching him.

Also, do NOT throw bonus fruit at Wario unles you wanna risk getting destroyed by z-dropped fruit into waft. Galaxia, Melon and Apple are particularly suicidal. Strawberry and Key are relatively safe in my experience though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wario is seriously underrated, Burrying Bike also is extremely disrespectful and equally as fun because of it.