Character Competitive Impressions

[Dabuz]

Mii brawler really isn't that threatening guys .-. Has trouble approaching good walls, can't kill you in the unless he reads a bad airdodge, don't get grabbed near a ledge at 40, and challenge his air approaches with invincible/ disjointed upsmashes. If you can fight mario, you can first Mii Brawler, just make him force you to fight, not the other way around.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Hulk has to outfight people and make correct reads. He is 100% footsie based. He has to hit a button when he thinks you will. He doesnt have high mobility, great punishes, or a strong defensive option.

Brawler is closer to wesker. A character that you can put little work in and see great results. Def a top tier but not unstoppable and has clear weaknesses.

Puffster may know more about Brawler then me.

He for damn sure doesnt know more about UMvC3 then me. The comparison to Hulk was pure jokes. I see where he was coming from, but no. Just no. Char designs are just so different.

Woah hold on, you don't think I know more about Umvc3 than you do? Bruh, I played competitive Umvc3, I've beaten Rayray before. Do you play? We need to MM.

Now, back on topic. Why I think Brawler and Hulk are similar

Both Easy to pick up and be good with? Yes
Both go against the Meta and force players to play differently? Yes (Brawler requires you to not shield, Hulk requires you to not attack, both key points in their respective metagames)
Can both be stopped by respecting the character? Yes. Respect Brawler by realizing that his only threat is grabbing you and doing Helicopter Kick OoS, respect Hulk by understanding that you shouldn't carelessly approach him.

Mii brawler really isn't that threatening guys .-. Has trouble approaching good walls, can't kill you in the unless he reads a bad airdodge, don't get grabbed near a ledge at 40, and challenge his air approaches with invincible/ disjointed upsmashes. If you can fight mario, you can first Mii Brawler, just make him force you to fight, not the other way around.

Thank you

 

[90007000]

Mii brawler really isn't that threatening guys .-. Has trouble approaching good walls, can't kill you in the unless he reads a bad airdodge, don't get grabbed near a ledge at 40, and challenge his air approaches with invincible/ disjointed upsmashes. If you can fight mario, you can first Mii Brawler, just make him force you to fight, not the other way around.

...And who said Mii Brawler was threatening?

 

[Luco]

...And who said Mii Brawler was threatening?

Go a page back and you'll see many claiming he's top three and even some saying tiny mii brawler is #1. >_>

 

[Smog Frog]

where do people believe sits w/ customs

 

[busken]

Go a page back and you'll see many claiming he's top three and even some saying tiny mii brawler is #1. >_>

I hate when people trying to make the good guy sound stupid -_-

 

[Emblem Lord]

Woah hold on, you don't think I know more about Umvc3 than you do? Bruh, I played competitive Umvc3, I've beaten Rayray before. Do you play? We need to MM.

Now, back on topic. Why I think Brawler and Hulk are similar

Both Easy to pick up and be good with? Yes
Both go against the Meta and force players to play differently? Yes (Brawler requires you to not shield, Hulk requires you to not attack, both key points in their respective metagames)
Can both be stopped by respecting the character? Yes. Respect Brawler by realizing that his only threat is grabbing you and doing Helicopter Kick OoS, respect Hulk by understanding that you shouldn't carelessly approach him.





Thank you

Used too. But the metagame has degenerated into something that I do not like. If you have beaten Rayray you have my respect but bro that comparison you made was just horrible. Their metagames are not the same, like at all. You can legit put hulk in situations where he has to respect you. Brawler has feint jump which means its way harder to trap him.

Also Hulk gets zoned out HEAVY. Mii Brawler doesnt really get straight up countered by any one strat. Put Hulk vs Morrigan and he is in alot of trouble. Hulk isn't winning anything without an amazing team and even then he is not a threat to the meta. Brawler is legit top ten.

Again I get the comparison I just feel it's not fully applicable and imo you are trying to undersell Brawler when he is a scary character. There are many chars far weaker then him.

 

[busken]

Used too. But the metagame has degenerated into something that I do not like. If you have beaten Rayray you have my respect but bro that comparison you made was just horrible. Their metagames are not the same, like at all. You can legit put hulk in situations where he has to respect you. Brawler has feint jump which means its way harder to trap him.

Also Hulk gets zoned out HEAVY. Mii Brawler doesnt really get straight up countered by any one strat. Put Hulk vs Morrigan and he is in alot of trouble. Hulk isn't winning anything without an amazing team and even then he is not a threat to the meta. Brawler is legit top ten.

Again I get the comparison I just feel it's not fully applicable and imo you are trying to undersell Brawler when he is a scary character. There are many chars far weaker then him.

Who is this HULK? The actual HULK? :O


hulk confirmed 2015

 

[Emblem Lord]

HULK STRONGEST THERE IS!!!!!!

 

[Luco]

I hate when people trying to make the good guy sound stupid -_-

To be fair, you could argue this applies to my very quote. I'm just tired tho.

There are many chars far weaker than Brawler @ Emblem Lord , but the argument we've been making in the first place isn't that Brawler is bad per se but that his weaknesses are enough to prevent him being in top 5. Jigglymaster may have a different idea than me though so maybe I shouldn't speak for him but meah

EDIT: EPIC SAVE I'M SO SORRY.

 

[san.]

where do people believe sits w/ customs

~Upper mid? More than capable, but some other character's customs put him in check enough. He gets sizable upgrades that helps him for most MUs, but a player needs to master many combinations of specials depending on the MU and stage.

 

[Blobface]

HULK STRONGEST THERE IS!!!!!!

HULK (for) SMASH
I don't think Jigglymaster was saying Tiny Mii brawler isn't scary or anything of the sort, just that he's not #1 nor a massive threat in the meta.

 

[Vipermoon]

...about Brawler then me.

...

about UMvC3 then me.

Than*

 

[Djent]

where do people believe sits w/ customs

Pretty high (11-20 range), and relevant as a counterpick.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Than*

You got that. You got that bruh

On topic: Diddy and Sheik still the best

 

[Cassio]

Diddy for most overrated character post-patch imo. He's still a strong counter vs many characters though, including some good ones, which still makes him very threatening for certain MUs.

The definitive guide on Diddy Kong's tier placement.
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-19200283

Standing height Falco and taller Diddy is OP. Shorter then Falco and Diddy is aight.

 

[90007000]

HULK STRONGEST THERE IS!!!!!!

Actually, Chuck Norris is.

 

[Nu~]

Actually, Chuck Norris is.

Nah

On topic: How is customs Ike a pikachu counter?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Speedy Bike is stupid as an edgeguard, but it make sense. I mean, how would it feel like to get run over by a bike? Speaking of which, does his Bike have a HP like Luma and if so, how much? I was able to destroy Wario's default Bike with Falco's Bair which does 13% if clean and even Ftilt which does 9%. Then again, I hit Wario at the same time I hit the Bike, so I don't really know. Also, Wario's Dair is annoying.

Default Bike has something like 20 HP, iirc. In messing around with it, it seems like any interaction while it has a hitbox (bouncing off the ground, bouncing off an opponent, clanking with another move) seems to deal the same amount of damage to it, or at least a minimum amount (~8%?). Mega Man's pellets break it quickly while it's being thrown, and a U-Air will cause it to blow up almost instantly.

Oh, and it appears to have significantly less health when Wario is on it, arbitrarily (or it blows up when you hit Wario and the Bike simultaneously); many attacks will just blow it up. Fun fact: This is different from Brawl, where the Bike has infinite HP while Wario is on it, and the Bike would heal back to max HP if it takes damage and he rides it again.

 

[andimidna]

Just incorrect. Her footsies just do not threaten them at all. They simply arent scared of her and she plays at the same footsie range they do.

The match vs CF is even.

They beat Mewtwo slightly.

rofl wtf. Low tier doesnt mean lose to everyone gheb.

Oh good I didn't know this is what ppl thought
I've always had trouble against Marths and Lucina's and while I definitely need more experience it didn't seem far from even at all. A lot of characters have trouble getting in but when you can just outrange my wall... Damn lol
Same goes for shulk to some extent
Another character that I'm not sure on the MU is jigglypuff... Both rosa and jiggs have some pretty great stuff on each other... What do ppl think of this mu?

 

[Vipermoon]

Default Bike has something like 20 HP, iirc..

Did anyone else read hp as horsepower?

 

[Unknownkid]

Did anyone else read hp as horsepower?

No. He ask for Health on Wario's Bike so I immediately connected HP = Health Points/Stamina.

 

[Shaya]

Marth tipper shield breaker one shots Luma, mild charge from Lucina will do it too. They both kill it within two attacks mostly.
Then it's a matter of dancing blade and down tilts being stronger grounded tools than ... Rosa dash attack/jab by a lot and their good juggle game against her. I definitely don't have top Rosa experience, but I'm pretty certain that at most levels of play the Falchions have it really really easy.

Before hand, dashing assault was really great for the match up as it was able to one shot / push Luma off stage like 90% of the time and with it's huge range/transcended priority allowed them to force Rosa to almost never have Luma available. Now with the recent health change it feels pretty similar (forcing Rosa to almost never have Luma available, just keep an eye on the timer itself and basically be ready to instantly kill luma erry-time while Rosa air dodges/rolls).
Shieldbreaker having it's massive poke range and tipper kill power (can kill Rosa sub-100%) and just their general ability to attack Luma in a way that Rosa can't do much about. Hitlag extends hitbox sizes, so Rosa's dealing with (approximately?) 30% longer range from the falchions just by luma being in the primary spot she generally has to be in (in front) is lol worthy.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Did anyone else read hp as horsepower?

Not a chance, because I'm familiar with the Brawl trophy for the Wario Bike:

"A motorcycle specially designed for Wario by Dr. Crygor, an employee at WarioWare, Inc. This monster bike has an amazing 5,000cc, 4-stroke, 350HP engine capable of pushing it down the road at up to 217 miles per hour. Of course, this road hog is also a fuel hog and gets less than 5 miles to the gallon. Getting the pegs in the right position for Wario's short legs was difficult."

 

[Vipermoon]

No. He ask for Health on Wario's Bike so I immediately connected HP = Health Points/Stamina.

I know what HP means

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, I was wrong about the HP; testing it now shows exactly 18% health.

 

[Unknownkid]

I know what HP means

I didn't mean to imply that.

So Rosalina vs Marth/Lucina matchup is more so in Marth/Lucina favor especially with the patch? I went to their board to get an idea where Marth and Lucina matchup lies for Rosy. Lucina side has not started but Marth already claim it is 50:50 and more on to another character. I assume they will go back to that later.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Also, I was wrong about the HP; testing it now shows exactly 18% health.

That's actually lower than I thought. Huh. In retrospect it makes sense though.

 

[Shaya]

With customs it definitely seemed pretty even ("even" in the sense that every marth player rarely loses the match up but "it's a top character and Mars sucks sooo..."), actually we may have stipulated slight advantage, but with customs off it was definitely harder. Now they're one shotting Luma a lot of the time they don't even need dash assault (and shieldbreaker killing Rosa very early + significantly outranging her is probably a net gain to the match up overall)

 

[Ffamran]

Also, I was wrong about the HP; testing it now shows exactly 18% health.

What about if Wario's on the Bike? I was able to consistently RAR Bair it with Falco and destroy it and send Wario flying.

 

[Firefoxx]

I know he generally struggles against disjoints (and Sheik iirc), but who does Wario do well against?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What about if Wario's on the Bike? I was able to consistently RAR Bair it with Falco and destroy it and send Wario flying.

I can only seem to replicate it if the attack hits Wario at about the same time, and even then I can't make it happen consistently (though I've seen what you're talking about here and there). My guess is that an animation change causes the Bike to be able to get hit by the same hitbox again. Starting a wheelie and doing a turnaround instantly create new hitboxes, so it might be related to that...

In general, it still seems to follow the normal rule of 18 HP.

I know he generally struggles against disjoints (and Sheik iirc), but who does Wario do well against?

Characters that can't reliably threaten him from neutral seem to have a lot of trouble. Bike shenanigans are really safe and tend to shave a few seconds off the clock at any given time, and the Waft is better than ever in terms of KO potential. The new airdodge mechanics benefit him more than most characters, so he just camps until he has the ability to KO you outright at 50%. Some examples, IMO, include Rosalina, Mega Man, Luigi, Pac-Man...

 

[Diddy Kong]

~Upper mid? More than capable, but some other character's customs put him in check enough. He gets sizable upgrades that helps him for most MUs, but a player needs to master many combinations of specials depending on the MU and stage.

What are in your opinion Ike's best customs? I like the upgraded Eruption, both Side B customs, Aether Drive and Smash Counter most personally.

 

[Ffamran]

I can only seem to replicate it if the attack hits Wario at about the same time, and even then I can't make it happen consistently (though I've seen what you're talking about here and there). My guess is that an animation change causes the Bike to be able to get hit by the same hitbox again. Starting a wheelie and doing a turnaround instantly create new hitboxes, so it might be related to that...

In general, it still seems to follow the normal rule of 18 HP.

I hit Wario and the Bike at the same time which apparently makes it explode and for me it was consistent which might be because I hit Wario at the same time against the dude I was fighting who didn't abuse wheelies at all or let the Bike drift out much either. Then there was the time where I was able to destroy it with Ftilt which if Bike has 18% of HP, should not be happening. I should have saved that replay since I don't remember if I hit Wario with Ftilt while he was on the Bike, but I think I didn't, it exploded, and yeah it was confusing for me. Do "reused" Bikes - as in it's destroyed and Wario can pull out another one - have less health at first or something? I never hit the Bike until he pulled it out that 4th or 5th time.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy for most overrated character post-patch imo. He's still a strong counter vs many characters though, including some good ones, which still makes him very threatening for certain MUs.

The definitive guide on Diddy Kong's tier placement.
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-19200283

Standing height Falco and taller Diddy is OP. Shorter then Falco and Diddy is aight.

Most overrated? Nope, as long as banana > F Smash works, we good F Air and U Air are still great moves in their own right. Diddy simply has one of the best, if not the best kit there is. Too many tools to be used in too many situations that I doubt he's ever gonna be less than Top 5. Right now, he's definitely Top 3 if not still the best.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I hit Wario and the Bike at the same time which apparently makes it explode and for me it was consistent which might be because I hit Wario at the same time against the dude I was fighting who didn't abuse wheelies at all or let the Bike drift out much either. Then there was the time where I was able to destroy it with Ftilt which if Bike has 18% of HP, should not be happening. I should have saved that replay since I don't remember if I hit Wario with Ftilt while he was on the Bike, but I think I didn't, it exploded, and yeah it was confusing for me. Do "reused" Bikes - as in it's destroyed and Wario can pull out another one - have less health at first or something? I never hit the Bike until he pulled it out that 4th or 5th time.

As far as I can tell, all Bikes start with 18 HP regardless of how long they've been out or how long it's been since the last one existed.

Falco's F-Tilt deals 9%, which agrees with my theory that animation changes/Bike hitbox regeneration causes opponents' hitboxes to hit twice. It wouldn't stale on the second hit because it's still just one move used. I know there are weird properties with attacking a thrown Bike, too, but I don't know what else it could be outside of that.

 

[Nu~]

Characters that can't reliably threaten him from neutral seem to have a lot of trouble. Bike shenanigans are really safe and tend to shave a few seconds off the clock at any given time, and the Waft is better than ever in terms of KO potential. The new airdodge mechanics benefit him more than most characters, so he just camps until he has the ability to KO you outright at 50%. Some examples,
IMO, include Rosalina, Mega Man, Luigi, Pac-Man...

Hmm?
Explain how Wario beats Pacman in nuetral.
The fact that every fruit except the cherry knocks wario off of his bike already seems like a good advantage in nuetral against him. He can ride through the hydrant and over the trampoline, but the fact that one thrown fruit can ruin his bike game seems beneficial to me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He doesn't have to beat Pac-Man in neutral. He just has to wait and avoid Pac-Man's offense to charge Waft. Same with all the other characters I listed there.

Pac-Man doesn't move quickly enough or do enough damage to reliably punish a Wario who just stays out of the way. A ditched Bike keeps going with a hitbox and doesn't leave Wario open, and Wario is better than most at catching Bonus Fruit.

 

[Ffamran]

Hmm?
Explain how Wario beats Pacman in nuetral.
The fact that every fruit except the cherry knocks wario off of his bike already seems like a good advantage in nuetral against him. He can ride through the hydrant and over the trampoline, but the fact that one thrown fruit can ruin his bike game seems beneficial to me.

Wario eats everything and Pac-Man looks like pizza, so Wario would automatically win.

Still, can't his Bite be used to "counter" Bonus Fruit and can he eat the Hydrant? Dear lord, his dentist and gastroenterologist must be having nightmares dealing with Wario.

 

[FullMoon]

While we're at it, Reflex, how do you think Greninja does against Wario? He's one of those MUs that I never understood how it worked.