Character Competitive Impressions

[Splash Damage]

chracters I can see easily getting higher on tier lists assuming no patches:
(not by much)

Honestly, I think all characters are going to rise on the tierlist. In the current meta, the easiest characters to master are the top tiers because they've already reached their full potential. Almost no characters other than the current top tiers have reached their full potential under the use of anyone, as most of the people maining these current low-tiers have since switched to a top tier and mastered them in a few sessions. A good example of my point is Brawl ZSS. No one used her for a sizeable amount of time, then someone finally found the best way to use her and she rose incredibly fast. An example of the opposite side was Melee Link, as( if what I heard was true, records of early melee are sometimes pretty wishy-washy) he was considered much better than he really is due to ability to up B OoS and his projectiles. This makes me believe that a good amount of these current top-tier characters (especially Mario) will end up resting at mid or high-mid once the dust settles. I could be wrong though, we'll see.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Who says that the top tiers have reached their full potential? Having more options generally means that they'll have more room to grow, for all that's worth.

 

[Splash Damage]

I should've clarified, I mean the top tiers like Mario or Windkong who aren't really particularly fantastic, but just have a few things about them that are very good but very basic and simple. Rosa, Shiek, Pika, & likely Luigi will stay on top, though I suspect Luigi and some others are already close to the best they'll be.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario isn't played anywhere near his full potential. I can state this as fact.

 

[Splash Damage]

Neither is most of the cast. We can all state that as fact. If you're right in your claim, then he'll probably stay where he is on the tierlist, maybe a few spots down.

 

[HeroMystic]

In customs he's more likely to rise up than go down, even if you assume he's a top tier (I don't). In default, I imagine he'll rest comfortably in Top 15 pending balance changes.

 

[Ulevo]

Honestly, I think all characters are going to rise on the tierlist. In the current meta, the easiest characters to master are the top tiers because they've already reached their full potential. Almost no characters other than the current top tiers have reached their full potential under the use of anyone, as most of the people maining these current low-tiers have since switched to a top tier and mastered them in a few sessions. A good example of my point is Brawl ZSS. No one used her for a sizeable amount of time, then someone finally found the best way to use her and she rose incredibly fast. An example of the opposite side was Melee Link, as( if what I heard was true, records of early melee are sometimes pretty wishy-washy) he was considered much better than he really is due to ability to up B OoS and his projectiles. This makes me believe that a good amount of these current top-tier characters (especially Mario) will end up resting at mid or high-mid once the dust settles. I could be wrong though, we'll see.

Assuming any characters have hit there full potential after only 7 months of the games life span is naive. There are also characters that by virtue of their design have much more room to grow, such as Rosalina, who also happens to be a top tier.

 

[Illuminose]

Something that I think isn't being emphasized enough is that Luigi's kill power is absurd. Seriously - any grab at ~105-110% is essentially insta death (and tornado can kill even earlier than that). Luigi also has a fsmash with low start up/cool down that is very strong, a solid USmash, a devastatingly powerful raw bair, two spikes (sweet spotted dair and properly mashed tornado), uthrow at really high percent. and shoryuken Up B. Unlike other top tier characters, Luigi's kill setups are really easy to pull off, which separates him from the likes of say Sheik or Rosalina or Pikachu or Diddy Kong. Luigi also has the benefit of an insane ability to rack up damage off grabs AND get his kills off grabs. Luigi can get ~4-5 grabs and use those with his myriad of followups and combos with his kill options beginning at ~85-90 with tornado and ~105-110 with bair. Luigi's fireball is also really good for creating effective walls that force the opponent to block and thus set up for his grabs. Luigi can effectively skip spacing and approaching in neutral by throwing out fireballs. His recovery is really his only weakness, and it's not even bad at that. Luigi can recover from anywhere, especially if he has his jump. That said there's a time period in which some characters can interrupt his recovery because it's kinda slow, but there are heavy risks involved in doing so because all of Luigi's recovery moves have dangerous hit boxes. You can't really get under Luigi off stage because then you run the huge risk of being Down B spiked. Side B has the chance of a misfire and is a strong hitbox regardless of that. Up B can really hurt depending on how close you are and is also very difficult to punish from below the ledge. The list of characters that can actually effectively gimp Luigi is pretty limited. I mean there's Sheik and a few others like Falcon for instance that can spike Luigi's recovery if they recover too low to the stage and others that can knock Luigi out of say his Side B. Good Luigis make it really hard to clip their jump, but if you can manage to do so then Luigi struggles to recover. However, besides that, Luigi doesn't really have any issues besides maybe an unfavorable matchup against Sheik.

Also as a Sheik main I firmly believe that we are still learning to play Sheik optimally and that there is still a LOT of room for exploration. Optimizing punishes, refining edgeguarding options with needles, new vanish stalling like False has been using in tournament, INCs (instant needle cancels, basically allow Sheik to do tilts and smashes out of a dash), and incorporating various movement options like sm4sh dash dancing, perfect pivots, needle glides, wave bouncing, etc, and more, I definitely feel there's areas we can and will improve on with the character in the future, especially seeing as new depths of movement and options are being explored/implemented all the time. A lot of characters are like this, which can be judged easily by the discrepancies in player tier lists and uncertainty regarding character placements as a whole. We haven't figured out our characters to their fullest potential yet, that much is clear.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Cyclone doesn't kill that early.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Are triple digits really considered "absurd kill power?"

 

[ZarroTsu]

Are triple digits really considered "absurd kill power?"

I always assumed the percent was secondarily a killability gauge where 100% means "ripe for the KO."

 

[Splash Damage]

Assuming any characters have hit there full potential after only 7 months of the games life span is naive. There are also characters that by virtue of their design have much more room to grow, such as Rosalina, who also happens to be a top tier.

I know both of these things. When I said "Full Potential," I was speaking generally. I meant that they are very easy to pick up and use, like pre-patch Diddy, and you can get better results after less time, explaining why they're at the head of the pack so early. You can play Luigi or Shiek for around 10 sessions and be better with them in serious matches than with, say, Falco or Mac after a much longer time maining them. I speak from experience.
Also, I already stated above that I believe Rosa and some other top tiers will stay at the top. I already acknowledge this, and so do most players.

 

[Illuminose]

Are triple digits really considered "absurd kill power?"

I guess kill power is not really the right way to describe it. The thing is that Luigi has a really easy time landing kills. I'm incline to say that no other character has the same amount of ease of landing kills.

Cyclone doesn't kill that early.

It does depending kill around that percent with rage and it still usually kills ~90-95 so...

 

[Trifroze]

Top tiers do well after just a few matches because they're great characters. It doesn't make them simple, just it lets you play them in a simple way and still do well. I think this is a good moment to rage about how Falcon's dthrow buffered out of a dash grab is a guaranteed bair regardless of DI on at least Pikachu, Mewtwo, MK and ZSS at 20-100+% but no one is doing it. Surprisingly it's among the most difficult things I've practiced in this game, buffering a pivot jump right after dash startup into an immediate mid-air jump and bair to get just enough height for the hit. In most cases you can waste perhaps 1 or 2 frames with the execution, and buffering a pivot jump out of dash is the difficult part since if you do it too early you do a dashdance pivot jump and if you do it x frames too late you waste x amount of frames, although I'd guess timing related things like these come with simple grind. Still kinda feeling whether perfect pivots do the job and if they do, when.

On the contrary I think we're approaching the time when we need to stop saying character x shows no results because they're hard to use. Sorry Shulk but you might simply just be low tier, and sorry Peach and Greninja but you might simply just stay at around ~20th.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Luigi shouldn't find it easy to get in, though. That's his problem.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby seems to have better matchups the more useful his copy ability is

anyone with a bad copy ability seems to be a worse matchup for kirby, but maybe thats just me

I can tell you that the Yoshi matchup would be much more manageable if his eggs were his neutral B.

 

[David Viran]

How reliable is cyclone going to be when people get better at sdiing it or at all?

 

[deepseadiva]

Are triple digits really considered "absurd kill power?"

This thread be like
"CRAZY RANGE ON HIS JAB" Kirby
"SCARY DAMAGE OUTPUT" impossible 3 move combo that does 10%
"DEATH ON A HARD READ" Ganon utilt

Not to read anyone else I hype my characters a lot too.....

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And here I am, playing

Expectations lowered.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the life of Falco and Fox where Phantasm and Illusion equals death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ0Wkn436Kc. Ahem... HOLY CRAP, that Rest timing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

HOLY CRAP, that Rest timing.

It's not that impressive. Three active frames on a Frame 2 move where you're invincible on Frame 1 isn't too difficult to manage if you know what's coming.

 

[Ffamran]

It's not that impressive. Three active frames on a Frame 2 move where you're invincible on Frame 1 isn't too difficult to manage if you know what's coming.

B-but Falco was clearly away from Jigglypuff when she used Rest. ;_;

I wonder if this works on Pikachu during Quick Attack since Pikachu's hurtbox is elongated...

 

[Illuminose]

Luigi shouldn't find it easy to get in, though. That's his problem.

Literally all Luigi needs is a grab though to turn entire games around sometimes. It's really hard to avoid getting grabbed at all. That's part of what makes Ness so potent.

 

[ZarroTsu]

But... Ness has grab-confirms and Luigi doesn't? (unless your opponent disrespects the fireball, but I digress)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Luigi doesn't have hitconfirms > grab at low percents?

I mean, I know I play a fatass and all, but I'm pretty sure he does.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Smog Frog]

i think one of the 0-60 combos is nair->dthrow->fair->uair->dthrow->fair->fair, so he does have grab confirms outside of fireball.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How do you plan on landing N-Air in the neutral position, though?

 

[wedl!!]

is underwhelming, everyone figured this out a while ago. isn't going to get out of mid/high-mid tier due to his nerfs and is one of the least developed characters in the game. ,,,,,,, and fit into this category as well but is better than all of those characters by quite a margin (mainly in default meta).

also basing tier placing purely on results is arbitrary. barely had results for the first several years of melee and he's the best character in the game by far and was always regarded highly.

On the contrary I think we're approaching the time when we need to stop saying character x shows no results because they're hard to use. Sorry Shulk but you might simply just be low tier, and sorry Peach and Greninja but you might simply just stay at around ~20th.

 

[Splash Damage]

Smash 4 is almost certainly gonna take around the longest time in relativity to other smash games to fully develop the meta/tierlist to an entirely complete degree due to the nature of the game, sheer roster size(and growing), patches, and custom moves. Most judgements of the game and its characters as a complete meta are speaking pretty preemptively. That being said, most general judgements(Such as Shulk being lower-tier, Mewtwo being glass-canonic combo food, and most of Luigi's learning curve taking a few sessions) are somewhat safe to make, barring of course unexpected turns such as the aforementioned Brawl ZSS.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Luigi's Dash Grab animation lasts for 35 frames and grabs on Frame 8 (27 frames of endlag, in that case). Even the laggiest spotdodges only have 25 frames from the earliest invincibility to the last of the endlag.

That means that even if your spotdodge and Luigi's Dash Grab were active on the same frame as a character with one of the laggiest spotdodges (the absolute worst frame-based scenario; you'll likely spotdodge earlier and get better frame advantage), you'll be +2 at the end of your spotdodge. Luigi's Frame 2 Jab is oppressive, but in a realistic scenario, most characters would likely be able to hit Luigi before he can shield or retaliate.

Even if you feel you can't punish (which you'd likely be able to ballpark based on how close the grab was; you have almost half a second to judge), you can roll away (or forward, I guess) and be safe from retaliation, since all roll invincibility starts on Frame 4.

Also, while hitstun is increased based on percents, has anyone tried just rolling toward a second fireball on reaction? All the "best" rolls tend to have the fewest invincibility frames, so getting hit by said fireball would cut the animation shorter than just finishing the roll. I wonder how much frame advantage would be gained in a realistic situation with that...

I know that Luigi Neutral-B is a really good projectile that does a lot to help Luigi wall people and get in, and stripping down frame data doesn't change that, but perhaps there's more to dealing with it than people often suggest.

 

[bc1910]

If you think Greninja can't make it out of mid I am literally lost for words. I'm not even going to bother defending the froge here. This isn't even about bias. A character with that mobility simply does not "stop" at mid tier unless their moves are absolute ****.

@ TheReflexWonder I literally love your tier list man. It's not even about Greninja's placement (which in fairness is spot on), there are literally less than 5 placements I have a big problem with and even those you have good reasoning behind. So nice to see someone not ignore Marcina and drop them in low tier. Compared to most of the crap I've seen in this thread lately (sorry Ampharos I love you as a poster but I think your tier list is absolutely terrible) it's a total breath of fresh air. Kudos to you Reflex.

 

[TriTails]

Guys. Guys. Please.

First thing first. Top 10 Luigi DOES NOT exist. At least for now. Stop saying this. You're hurting me.

Second. Who says Luigi has to get grabs the entire time? Oh yeah. You roll when I dash grab. Meanwhile, I decide to not do that again and instead ROTFL you with aerials. Simply getting the D-throw isn't the way on playing Luigi (Instead, you'll get rekt hard). You want to rack up damage? Aerials are your best friend (Especially the safe on shield 14% B-air).

Luigi can combo sour N-air and U-air into D-throw at lower percents, but you're not getting this in neutral. U-tilt is pretty good though (For the not fast-faller), and D-tilt can bait out an airdodge and if they jump... well, you're now above Luigi without your double jump. Have fun. Though, how'd you land these are a different story (PP U-tilt tho?).

Fireball -> Dash grab is easily beatable by taking the Fireball and F-tilt right after. Dunno why people haven't noticed this yet. FG players use it and I'd be surprised if people haven't start to use this as a counterplay to the strategy above.

Of course, that's assuming Luigi is stupid enough to Fireball -> Dash grab. Unless you are shielding the Fireball for whatever reason, or screw up, you are not going to get grabbed from a mere Fireball.

And by way, how does Ness has reliable grab-confirms? I have in multiple occasion shielded the PK Fire and punish him hard, or hell, I have once SDI out of the PK Fire AND GRAB HIM when he comes. Unless you are hit close to Ness you should not getting grabbed at all. The move's end lag is horrible. And if he whiffs, he is dead.

People are too overhyping Luigi because of his grabs alone IMO. The grab is a very risky move and is not reliable unless your opponent is a stupid one. I repeat, VERY RISKY MOVE. Mark my words.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Luigi shouldn't find it easy to get in, though. That's his problem.

Yeah, did you see Aerolink vs Larry? I don't get why Larry decided on Luigi so early, I seriously think Fox would've been a better pick. Palutena can sort of space Luigi out with fair/bair/jab, ergo her basic kit.

 

[ZarroTsu]

And by way, how does Ness has reliable grab-confirms? I have in multiple occasion shielded the PK Fire and punish him hard, or hell, I have once SDI out of the PK Fire AND GRAB HIM when he comes. Unless you are hit close to Ness you should not getting grabbed at all. The move's end lag is horrible. And if he whiffs, he is dead.

Never said 'reliable'. However he does have dtilt tripping into grab, too.

 

[Smog Frog]

id just fsmash off a dtilt trip tbh, gets more damage than a grab would on average.

 

[Antonykun]

On the contrary I think we're approaching the time when we need to stop saying character x shows no results because they're hard to use. Sorry Shulk but you might simply just be low tier, and sorry Peach and Greninja but you might simply just stay at around ~20th.

you act like this game is a year old :/
Granted i have no idea how good these characters are other than they can be really crazy in the right hands

 

[Radical Larry]

Here's what I think about Jigglypuff (someone besides Ganondorf for a change):

Jigglypuff seems to be a solid mid-tier at worst and a solid high tier at best. Her light weight and floaty nature might be a turnoff to people, but when you control her floaty nature, she is absolutely dangerous; I'm not going to go on and list out every abbreviation for any tech, but I will list out great points on her:

She has a really amazing air game coupled with a decent ground game. Her dash attack is one of her best ground attacks, along with her tilts and jab. The dash attack has the capability to juggle opponents on the ground at certain moderate damages, thus leading her to effectively hit an opponent with another attack. All of her aerials are reliable, and her B-Air is an absolute beast when you read the opponent just right.

That's just the tip of the iceberg...

Her D-Air is a very useful D-Air thanks to her mobility within the air, thus allowing her to freely use it and garner multiple hits. Even one hit may mess up your opponent and keep you safe. It's also got a decent reach and her second and fourth hits seem to be similar to meteors, so I often end up ending the move on the second or fourth hits just for the meteor or the last hit for the knockback.

(I've been using Her for Jigglypuff; sorry, just got synonymous with it I guess)

With heavyweights, it's a hard type of thing; against Bowser or Charizard, she has an edge over them since they are very easy targets and easy to dodge. But those like Captain Falcon or Ganondorf are much harder on her, especially the latter. The former can barely get a knee on her, but the latter has so much combos against her, including the dreaded F-Spec > F-Tilt.

Although Jiggs does have very nice match ups against Ness. I think Jiggs might be a counter to Ness by 55:45. This is thanks in part to Jigglypuff's light nature and capability to escape Ness' combos. One must be wary, however, that Ness can still easily KO Jiggs, but not as reliably as he can with other characters. Throwing out PK Fire is a bold move, often resulting in Jiggs punishing you with an N-Air, F-Air or D-Air as a result.

Jigglypuff is a really solid character, and could develop into high tier category. All you have to really do is make sure to use Jiggs as an elegant fighter, and to rush in from the air most of the time. And hope that your Rest KO will result in a Star KO or a Screen KO. If it doesn't, prepare to have an F-Smash hit you.

 

[Jaguar360]

Top tiers do well after just a few matches because they're great characters. It doesn't make them simple, just it lets you play them in a simple way and still do well. I think this is a good moment to rage about how Falcon's dthrow buffered out of a dash grab is a guaranteed bair regardless of DI on at least Pikachu, Mewtwo, MK and ZSS at 20-100+% but no one is doing it. Surprisingly it's among the most difficult things I've practiced in this game, buffering a pivot jump right after dash startup into an immediate mid-air jump and bair to get just enough height for the hit. In most cases you can waste perhaps 1 or 2 frames with the execution, and buffering a pivot jump out of dash is the difficult part since if you do it too early you do a dashdance pivot jump and if you do it x frames too late you waste x amount of frames, although I'd guess timing related things like these come with simple grind. Still kinda feeling whether perfect pivots do the job and if they do, when.

On the contrary I think we're approaching the time when we need to stop saying character x shows no results because they're hard to use. Sorry Shulk but you might simply just be low tier, and sorry Peach and Greninja but you might simply just stay at around ~20th.

aMSa got 13th at APEX with Greninja and is probably doing well in Japan now (can't say for sure). Techei does pretty well consistently at Xanadu and only seems to be getting better. Techei's not even using Greninja to his potential as he doesn't really incorporate up air spikes or footstool combos into his gameplay or use Hydro Pump onstage much. As we practice more, we'll get more u-tilt to u-air spike chains down more consistently and maybe get his insane footstool combos down in actual matches. Greninja's journey on the tier list does not stop here. There is solid evidence of his potential wait there and he is sure to move up once Greninja mains make use of it more. These techniques don't solve his issues of poor frame data, but they do make Greninja a more dangerous character as a whole.

 

[bc1910]

Can I point out how good the original 12 are in this game? I've seen literally all of them described as high tier or above except Samus and Kirby. Being more realistic, 7 of them (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Pikachu, Falcon, Ness, Fox) are commonly accepted potential top tiers. I think it's great that so many of the OGs are so good for once.

 

[wedl!!]

Can I point out how good the original 12 are in this game? I've seen literally all of them described as high tier or above except Samus and Kirby. Being more realistic, 7 of them (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Pikachu, Falcon, Ness, Fox) are commonly accepted potential top tiers. I think it's great that so many of the OGs are so good for once.

is only above low tier to either mains or people who think for glory is an accurate representation of tourney play