Character Competitive Impressions

[TriTails]

Luigi hates them.

That's all I have to say.

This is ignoring the 'top tiers' part. As Luigi is no part of top tiers.

But he hates them.

*Starts rambling on how Mario and Sheik's air speed jumped to like, one of the best while Luigi didn't*

 

[Luco]

DHD has a pretty sorry time against Sonic, Yoshi and possibly Sheik and Rosaluma, as far as I know. Characters with high mobility to avoid DHD's projectile or kill setups tend to make life difficult for him. At least he has one of the most ludicrously disjointed Fairs in the game (although I did recently get surprised by an attack that outranged it with max spacing and I was like :O ) and a neat little grab (I don't know why but I really love his grab/Fthrow <3 ).

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Luigi is absolutely top tier unless your top tier only has room for 1 or 2 characters.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Hypothetical:

What if Sheik's needles had no hitstun?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Top tier in my book is everyone from Sheik, Rosalina and Pikachu to the likes of ROB or Wario. Everyone else is either mid or high tier. I almost feel like there is no bottom tier. But this is just because, to me, there is no real drop off of viability until you get to ROB, because he, like the many others below him, can't really be effectively solo-mained, in my opinion.

 

[Firefoxx]

Hypothetical:

What if Sheik's needles had no hitstun?

Then they would be pretty much useless. A worse version of Fox's laser that you have to charge and you would pretty much never throw a full stock cause almost any character could react and punish you.

More interesting would be something like only the 5th and 6th needles have hitstun. OR they only have hitstun if you don't store them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hypothetical:

What if Sheik's needles had no hitstun?

She drops 2 tiers

 

[Luco]

Although an interesting idea would be no hitstun but more damage on each needle. Alternatively, I like the idea of needles being a close-range attack that does a decent amount of damage and/or sets up for combos but doesn't travel far at all. In other words, similar to a Mewtwo's confusion that's better.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

That sounds weird. Like they should just use a smoke bomb or something instead.

 

[NegaNixx]

Although an interesting idea would be no hitstun but more damage on each needle. Alternatively, I like the idea of needles being a close-range attack that does a decent amount of damage and/or sets up for combos but doesn't travel far at all. In other words, similar to a Mewtwo's confusion that's better.

Paralysing Needles without the Paralysing?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Best case scenario: Sheik's needles caused Falco's Laser hitstun.

That way, the move would be slightly less annoying, but would otherwise function pretty much the same.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Just make the Needles be affected by gravity and air friction. The farther the needles go, the closer they are to the ground and less damage and/or hitstun they do, to the point that at max range, the damage output is almost nonexistent.

It makes sense for Lasers and magic to ignore gravity and friction because they're concentrated light and magic. Not so much sense for metal needles.


Alternatively, make the needles clankable, and if you clank the first needle in a series, you clank them all.

 

[meleebrawler]

Just make the Needles be affected by gravity and air friction. The farther the needles go, the closer they are to the ground and less damage and/or hitstun they do, to the point that at max range, the damage output is almost nonexistent.

It makes sense for Lasers and magic to ignore gravity and friction because they're concentrated light and magic. Not so much sense for metal needles.


Alternatively, make the needles clankable, and if you clank the first needle in a series, you clank them all.

Wouldn't Sheik than be able to punish those who are stuck clanking five needles? Like Brawl FLUDD?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Wouldn't Sheik than be able to punish those who are stuck clanking five needles? Like Brawl FLUDD?

More like clanking the first needle creates a domino effect, with the first needle serving as the barrier that blocks the second needle, which is then a barrier that blocks the third, and so on.

 

[Luco]

Paralysing Needles without the Paralysing?

I mean, you have moves like 'Dolphin Slash' in this game which in no way involve anything remotely dolphin-like.

But yeah, I don't think it'd be that big a deal. Worst case you rename it.

 

[Teshie U]

Luigi is absolutely top tier unless your top tier only has room for 1 or 2 characters.

I'm not convinced Luigi has that solo viability of a top tier. He is a strong CP character no doubt usable with a secondary, but his mobility and traction are certainly exploitable factors.

Mobility is such an important option in smash, being able to reach a wide range of places quickly to react to mobility is part of dealing with that. I don't see a slowish character being top tier without immense range like Rosalina.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am also starting to think that Diddy vs Luigi isn't that bad actually. The key is using Peanuts where you'd else be using Bananas I figured out.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm not convinced Luigi has that solo viability of a top tier. He is a strong CP character no doubt usable with a secondary, but his mobility and traction are certainly exploitable factors.

Mobility is such an important option in smash, being able to reach a wide range of places quickly to react to mobility is part of dealing with that. I don't see a slowish character being top tier without immense range like Rosalina.

Luigi is REALLY good at covering poor matchups that other characters have. For example, between Luigi and Fox I feel like theres one, maybe two, bad matchups for both (Rosalina sticks out)
But that's going to be the future of the game. Knowing more than one character is going to become
necessary.

 

[zeldasmash]

Link lost his jab cancels.

Yet Sheik didn't lost her needles.

doesnt TL still have all of these except the last one?

His jab was untouched, both bomb techs were removed.

I sometimes wonder if they nerf to make him "bad" on purpose, because this is just ridiculous. wasn't even that great to begin with yet they keep taking away, piece by piece, what great tools he had. Yet keeps his Jab Cancel, (!!) gets to keep his Jab Cancel, but not . Apparently they thought was too OP, they forgot to nerf characters like who still hasn't received a true nerf so far. I hope that when comes back, gets some kind of buff (but considering his track record, i highly doubt it )

 

[Mr. Johan]

On one hand, Lucas is supposed to be out in June, which means this current patch with all of its changes to Diddy and the like have only been in effect for two months, so it may be a bit too early to start speculating more patch changes.

On the other hand, there are still some questionable jank like Needles, Fox's Jab Cancel, Infinite Lightweight, and Wario as a character =P, and maybe they just didn't have time to address these issues last time between them getting Mewtwo complete and coming to a decision to keep with character DLC, but now they have time to fix these with the newest patch now that they have a schedule.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'd like to say this now, and it's that Link can still lock opponents in Jab. His jab attack is quite fast, and he's still capable of locking opponents with the first jab if you are fast and precise enough. I've managed to do it at around the same speed of the original Jab Cancel, just by pressing the A button at exact intervals and speeds. Link can lock opponents in his jab, yes, but remember to use USpec if you plan to hit them out of it. It may not be the Jab Cancel, but it's still a somewhat effective means of attack (though not as good as the Jab Cancel, but it works). Plus we cannot forget that Link's second jab is also great for combo setups and even sets a lock on opponents.

And yet while Link lost the ability to Smash attack with Bomb (which was a bug), and his whole Bomb Toss Cancel (another bug), he's gained significant buffs to him as well. A dash attack that comes out sooner, U-Throw > U-Tilt combos, D-Throw having better strings and Spin Attack dealing massive damage.

Lastly, let's be thankful that Link's Bombs still destroy projectiles, like Samus' cheap Charge Shot.

@ Luco I do have to say that it is hard to grab Jigglypuff when the opponent is in air most of the time. Jiggs is a very annoying opponent to Ness and will exploit any screw up. Just don't land an F-Smash and whiff it; a good Jiggs would counter with Rest or Sing...then rest.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What makes you think they don't want Fox to keep his jab cancel?

 

[Minordeth]

After playing around with Fox for a couple days,

What makes you think they don't want Fox to keep his jab cancel?

Yup. Fox's jab cancel is in line with his character design. It may be abusive, but it's at least consistent. Plus, if he didn't have it, I think it would make the Yoshi MU unbearable.

Link with jab cancel would possibly have turned into a heavier, laggier Fox. Now he is repping Hyrule tier like he was apparently designed to do. Ironically, his jab canceled Usmash was a great anti Fox tool.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Basically.

Nintendo seems to be balancing around the concept of "intended design".

If it's out of line with their "vision" of the character then it gets nerfed to hell.

 

[Luco]

@ Luco I do have to say that it is hard to grab Jigglypuff when the opponent is in air most of the time. Jiggs is a very annoying opponent to Ness and will exploit any screw up. Just don't land an F-Smash and whiff it; a good Jiggs would counter with Rest or Sing...then rest.

It doesn't matter when we have more killing options than a truck. Bair, Uair and Nair will do the trick should Jiggs decide never to land. And we most likely won't be going for too many Fsmashes or... anything else that unsafe. Why would we go for an Fsmash in the first place, a grounded move, when we can grab, a far more consistent option?

 

[zeldasmash]

Basically.

Nintendo seems to be balancing around the concept of "intended design".

If it's out of line with their "vision" of the character then it gets nerfed to hell.

Then what's with Samus having the worst jab in the game? Even one her victory poses makes a better jab than the one she actually has right now. And even then, doesn't Link lock his opponents in place in the Zelda games with his sword by striking multiple times (5 times ish) before dealing a finishing blow?

Then what's with Samus having the worst jab in the game? Even one her victory poses makes a better jab than the one she actually has right now. And even then, doesn't Link lock his opponents in place in the Zelda games with his sword by striking multiple times (5 times ish) before dealing a finishing blow?

 

[Ikes]

What makes you think they don't want Fox to keep his jab cancel?

I'm personally of the opinion that his jab cancel is in no way broken or overpowered, it's only a true lock on a few characters and most others can escape it entirely. it's also incredibly easy to mess up.

Same with how I think they should've kept Wectoring, but that's a different story.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Then what's with Samus having the worst jab in the game? Even one her victory poses makes a better jab than the one she actually has right now. And even then, doesn't Link lock his opponents in place in the Zelda games with his sword by striking multiple times (5 times ish) before dealing a finishing blow?

In the tips section, Nintendo remarks that Samus' jab doesnt link properly. It's only good for mix-ups.

Nintendo wants her jab to suck.

Based on that alone we can see nintendo is well aware of the flaws of their creations.

Those flaws are intended

Let it sink in.

Give it a few minutes.

 

[Minordeth]

I'm personally of the opinion that his jab cancel is in no way broken or overpowered, it's only a true lock on a few characters and most others can escape it entirely. it's also incredibly easy to mess up.

Same with how I think they should've kept Wectoring, but that's a different story.

Yeah, when I play as Fox, even on characters that can be locked, I generally go for a quick one or two jabs before linking into an option with less margin for error. Especially against Yoshi. Speaking of which, does any other top tier character have a wrench like Yoshi is for Fox? Maybe Diddy for Rosaluma pre-patch, but it's hard to distentangle Zero from things.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Basically.

Nintendo seems to be balancing around the concept of "intended design".

If it's out of line with their "vision" of the character then it gets nerfed to hell.

Heh. I remember certain Sakurai interview where he said "this character we considered average actually has good results in For Glory, and we still don't know how".
And a lot of people thought of Link immediately. We all know Sakurai wants him and a bunch of other characters to be bad.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Heh. I remember certain Sakurai interview where he said "this character we considered average actually has good results in For Glory, and we still don't know how".
And a lot of people thought of Link immediately. We all know Sakurai wants him and a bunch of other characters to be bad.

IIRC Diddy and Luigi were both also considered possible targets for that statement. I don't think we ever found out for certain who it was though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

In the tips section, Nintendo remarks that Samus' jab doesnt link properly. It's only good for mix-ups.

Nintendo wants her jab to suck.

Based on that alone we can see nintendo is well aware of the flaws of their creations.

Those flaws are intended

Let it sink in.

Give it a few minutes.

That type of balancing makes this game pretty annoying to play.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

^ not really? Everything is going to have a design in mind. The divide is when you don't have the characters strengths make up for their flaws.

Example...Shulk. He has slow start-up, and considerable lag on a multitude of move. Supposed to be made up by the power of stance swapping. However 3/5 stances are visibly underpowered.

 

[Teshie U]

In the tips section, Nintendo remarks that Samus' jab doesnt link properly. It's only good for mix-ups.

Nintendo wants her jab to suck.

Based on that alone we can see nintendo is well aware of the flaws of their creations.

Those flaws are intended

Let it sink in.

Give it a few minutes.

IIRC based on the original "tips" section, they have reversed some intended flaws if they were too polarizing.

In fact, Link's jab chaining into his smashes (far less doable now) is one of those things.

 

[Project Quarantine]

In the tips section, Nintendo remarks that Samus' jab doesnt link properly. It's only good for mix-ups.

Nintendo wants her jab to suck.

Based on that alone we can see nintendo is well aware of the flaws of their creations.

Those flaws are intended

Let it sink in.

Give it a few minutes.

I don't have an exact quote, but I reckon Sakurai once said before the game was released, "Samus is looking to be one of the best characters in the game." Perhaps upon thinking Samus would be broken, they decided to tweak her jab.

 

[Emblem Lord]

IIRC based on the original "tips" section, they have reversed some intended flaws if they were too polarizing.

In fact, Link's jab chaining into his smashes (far less doable now) is one of those things.

They looked at it again and were like


wtf were we thinking?

 

[Trifroze]

I highly doubt Nintendo wants Fox's jab cancel in the game. They've always stayed away from designs that can make a player consistently unable to do anything and strongly affect the outcome, unless it's easily doable by anyone or the result of a random system behind the game. Like someone said, Fox's jab only works on some, is hard to execute and has a considerable effect on the character (Yoshi matchup was mentioned). These attributes perfectly fit the type of stuff that Nintendo doesn't want in their games.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It was discovered long before Links and its still here.

soooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[bc1910]

They've actually done nothing but nerf Sheik since E3. Her nades had their suction effect weakened before 3DS release and I think her Ftilt was nerfed too, to knock slightly outwards rather than inwards because it was creating Brawl-esque locks. Not positive on that, but I'm 100% sure nades were nerfed.

Following on from that we have the Wii U release nerf and the most recent Bair (and Dtilt) nerf. To be honest I'm actually sick of minor Sheik nerfs. Give her a big nerf to needles and go from there, stop with this constant nerfing. I don't care how inconsequential they are, repeatedly handing nerfs to a character just alienates that character's player base and will eventually leave them with no strong tools at all. Whereas one big nerf to a couple of tools will allow that character to develop properly.

 

[Quickhero]

It was discovered long before Links and its still here.

soooooooooooooooooooooo

I don't know where you're going with this. I'm pretty sure it's just that Sakurai has no idea of the fox jab infinite because unlike Link's jab infinite, not everybody and their mother knew about Fox's jab infinite.

I think you're over-thinking things. Sakurai is just balancing things by what he thinks will fix issues with characters and nothing more. It's not some conspiracy Sakurai making characters intentionally bad/some character intentionally has some busted mechanic/whatever you were trying to get at, it's just good ol' Sakurai being inexperienced.