Character Competitive Impressions

[PUK]

They've actually done nothing but nerf Sheik since E3. Her nades had their suction effect weakened before 3DS release and I think her Ftilt was nerfed too, to knock slightly outwards rather than inwards because it was creating Brawl-esque locks. Not positive on that, but I'm 100% sure nades were nerfed.

Following on from that we have the Wii U release nerf and the most recent Bair (and Dtilt) nerf. To be honest I'm actually sick of minor Sheik nerfs. Give her a big nerf to needles and go from there, stop with this constant nerfing. I don't care how inconsequential they are, repeatedly handing nerfs to a character just alienates that character's player base and will eventually leave them with no strong tools at all. Whereas one big nerf to a couple of tools will allow that character to develop properly.

But it's minor nerf which are the best: minor nerf and buff slightly fixes issue without creating some others.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't know where you're going with this. I'm pretty sure it's just that Sakurai has no idea of the fox jab infinite because unlike Link's jab infinite, not everybody and their mother knew about Fox's jab infinite.

I think you're over-thinking things. Sakurai is just balancing things by what he thinks will fix issues with characters and nothing more. It's not some conspiracy Sakurai making characters intentionally bad/whatever you were getting at, it's just Sakurai is inexperienced at patching.

fox's jabs have been on display for long enough and at high levels. If you didn't know about it you were living under a rock.

@ ChronoPenguin when balance a game how the designer wants a character to play shouldn't be the main goal. I've seen sakurai play smash before......it wasn't pretty.

 

[Luco]

It comes into a very interesting argument about whether a game should lend itself to the desires of the developer or the desires of the player. A developer has a dream, an idea in mind, but at the same time no-one will play their game if none of their ideas match with the players'.

I'm pretty sure, from memory, that the players' needs are considered more important, but I have a lot of respect for games that tread the line between their developers' desires, ideals and messages and the expectations of the player (see: Beyond Good and Evil, Terranigma, Mother 3, Chrono Trigger, Journey and, to a lesser and more general extent, I would argue Smash also fits this category).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

As if they need be mutually exclusive.
If you have a concept, and the concept is not successfully playing out, then something has gone wrong in the execution.

Not that this is a particularly fruitful discussion

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It was discovered long before Links and its still here.

soooooooooooooooooooooo

To be fair, how much exposure did it get compared to Link's? I honestly don't know.

Also Palutena's Lightweight glitch is still in but Aerolink is literally the only noteworthy Palutena I know of.

 

[FullMoon]

They've actually done nothing but nerf Sheik since E3. Her nades had their suction effect weakened before 3DS release and I think her Ftilt was nerfed too, to knock slightly outwards rather than inwards because it was creating Brawl-esque locks. Not positive on that, but I'm 100% sure nades were nerfed.

Following on from that we have the Wii U release nerf and the most recent Bair (and Dtilt) nerf. To be honest I'm actually sick of minor Sheik nerfs. Give her a big nerf to needles and go from there, stop with this constant nerfing. I don't care how inconsequential they are, repeatedly handing nerfs to a character just alienates that character's player base and will eventually leave them with no strong tools at all. Whereas one big nerf to a couple of tools will allow that character to develop properly.

They kind of already nerfed Needles before. The first balance patch added more endlag to it. Clearly it wasn't enough.

But it's funny that Greninja gets the meme after being nerfed once while Sheik has actually been nerfed in every balance patch so far.

And Rosalina too but I dunno how important the Luma HP loss was.

 

[Luco]

As if they need be mutually exclusive.
If you have a concept, and the concept is not successfully playing out, then something has gone wrong in the execution.

Not that this is a particularly fruitful discussion

Of course, usually games that struck this balance were also games that weren't just 'compromises'.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

They kind of already nerfed Needles before. The first balance patch added more endlag to it. Clearly it wasn't enough.

But it's funny that Greninja gets the meme after being nerfed once while Sheik has actually been nerfed in every balance patch so far.

And Rosalina too but I dunno how important the Luma HP loss was.

I am noticing that Luma dies to raw hits more often now, as opposed to getting hit offstage. I'm actually kind of impressed, I didn't expect a 5 HP nerf to matter at all.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Example...Shulk. He has slow start-up, and considerable lag on a multitude of move. Supposed to be made up by the power of stance swapping. However 3/5 stances are visibly underpowered.

You think so? Beyond Shield I've never felt like a stance wasn't being particularly helpful in some way. Jump gets you back on stage just fine, Speed is Speed, Buster gives a solid damage increase and on-shield hit safety, and Smash seems to kill things just fine.

Now if you mean "do they make up for his garbage frame data" then no you're not wrong about that. Giving him an autocancel somewhere or giving some reduced cooldown would go a long way.

 

[Ffamran]

On Fox's jab cancel. Wasn't he able to do this in previous games too? I think it was intended as he lacks a Gentleman, but they don't know how to fix it well without wrecking him like what happened to Link and perhaps Samus. For me, I think the intent for Link and Samus was to be able to mix up their jabs and not be able to hit confirm and murder everyone. Link was able to do that while Samus... Could you imagine Samus being able to hit confirm into Side Smash or Charge Shot with jab? Here's the thing, they screwed up their jabs so not only does jab cancel not exist, but jab mix ups are risky as well. 8 extra frames, 27 IASA to act with another move for Link is too much while 19 IASA might be too quick for Link. Fox's IASA for jab is 17? - I think that's his jab 1, but it's much faster than Link's. The difference would be that Link hits harder and has more range. He shouldn't be able to kill that easily, but he shouldn't have that much trouble killing which without a hit confirm makes it even more difficult.

 

[NegaNixx]

I'm pretty sure Fox's Jab Cancel is intended. The CPU mixes them into their play. Jab Jab Grab, Jab Jab U-Smash are all used often. I know it's not the best indicator, but I never saw the CPU using Link's Jab as anything but a regular Jab.

 

[David Viran]

I'm pretty sure Fox's Jab Cancel is intended. The CPU mixes them into their play. Jab Jab Grab, Jab Jab U-Smash are all used often. I know it's not the best indicator, but I never saw the CPU using Link's Jab as anything but a regular Jab.

Falcon cpus use jab mix ups too like jab up b even though they are not truly guaranteed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't know where you're going with this. I'm pretty sure it's just that Sakurai has no idea of the fox jab infinite because unlike Link's jab infinite, not everybody and their mother knew about Fox's jab infinite.

I think you're over-thinking things. Sakurai is just balancing things by what he thinks will fix issues with characters and nothing more. It's not some conspiracy Sakurai making characters intentionally bad/some character intentionally has some busted mechanic/whatever you were trying to get at, it's just good ol' Sakurai being inexperienced.

Do you...not know how long Sakurai has been making games?

Also Sakurai is considered a brilliant mind among his peers and the gaming industry.

He may not be the best at balancing but its pretty clear to me the nerfs arent just random and their is intent behind them. Its not just what will make the gaming exp better though I feel thats definitely a factor.

 

[BiRdZ]

I think Fox's jab is intentional. He had jab jab U-smash in 64, so it makes sense for him to have it now. If Nintendo wanted to patch it out, they probably would of by now, but they're most likely aware of it and Fox's jab is gonna stay the same, unless it becomes problematic.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi is absolutely top tier unless your top tier only has room for 1 or 2 characters.

That's if we are being generous, Luigi's bad MUs.

And maybe others who sticks out.


I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Goesasu]

I think Fox's jab is intentional. He had jab jab U-smash in 64, so it makes sense for him to have it now. If Nintendo wanted to patch it out, they probably would of by now, but they're most likely aware of it and Fox's jab is gonna stay the same, unless it becomes problematic.

For god sake there is a tip in game while loading that tells you about fox and links jabs cancels to smash attacks.

 

[zeldasmash]

For god sake there is a tip in game while loading that tells you about fox and links jabs cancels to smash attacks.

Now if only they didn't take Link's away.....for no reason whatsoever.

 

[bc1910]

I mean yeah needles have been f*cking trashed since Melee. Why people moan about them in Sm4sh says more about the ****tiness of the rest of the roster than anything else. I'm so afraid that the babies will get their way and devolve every character to Brawl Falcon level (i.e. has some cool strengths but will never get to use them and is ultimately f*cking boring) because no-one wants to actually deal with stuff, they just want to cry to Daddy Sakurai and have all their problems fixed for free.

 

[Trifroze]

Brawl Falcon was more interesting than Smash 4 Falcon (or any top tiers in this game) in a lot of ways. He was bad mostly because of the game mechanics and terrible top/high tier matchups, but I don't see what exactly about him was boring.

The fact that needles invalidate less things in this game than in Melee is hardly justification to keep Sheik the way she is.

 

[ZarroTsu]

If I understand Sakurai logic, Sheik's needles are as they are because "she has to charge them first" and is ergo "vulnerable during charging." Whether or not this is true (it probably isnt!) is up to speculation.

However, assuming this logic, the 'best' (and most-likely) way they would nerf it is by making needles take longer to charge.

 

[TheZyzyva]

I mean yeah needles have been f*cking trashed since Melee. Why people moan about them in Sm4sh says more about the ****tiness of the rest of the roster than anything else. I'm so afraid that the babies will get their way and devolve every character to Brawl Falcon level (i.e. has some cool strengths but will never get to use them and is ultimately f*cking boring) because no-one wants to actually deal with stuff, they just want to cry to Daddy Sakurai and have all their problems fixed for free.

And how do you suppose people deal with it? Needles are one of the single most absurd moves in the game. Whatever draw-backs they have are completely nullified by Sheiks mobility. Endlag and charge time are irrelevant when Sheik can evade most of the cast long enough to use them for free. The only reason they havent gotten nerfed like Falcos blaster is because no one has actively abused them like people did with the blue lasers.

A Sheik that chooses to camp is worse to deal with than a campy Sonic. I totally understand the fear that anything somewhat difficult to deal with will get nerfed, but needles are the wrong posterboy for that. Needles arent difficult to deal with, when used correctly theyre impossible to deal with.

 

[Superbat]

Opinions on Toon Link?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sometimes I wonder if what people say about their main being top tier or bad even play this game.
Tritails for this example seems to be the Luigi counterpart of me. Only difference being Luigi is actually good and getting results everywhere compared to Yoshi having 0 results and not placing big anywhere.

as an example of how I'd come up with an argument if somebody who mained sonic in this thread was saying Yoshi was OP. If I get away with a full hop Egg toss against sonic, they're most likely bad. If I don't get away for it then my eyes sparkle cause it means the person actually knows the ways of countering Yoshi.
Tris list seems to be saying based on his small list "anyone with projectiles or a good walling move beats Luigi" I don't see Luigi vs any of those MU's post patch or pre patch cause barely anyone plays em, Luigi vs Sheik somehow isn't very common either.
So enlighten us with any vids we all might be missing or honestly give us a bit more insight on why anyone with a decent projectile can beat a character like Luigi.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm sick and tired of this one character. He's so awful in this game that he's literally unplayable. It's driving me NUTS.
I think his name was Lucas or something.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

For what it's worth, Slush, I think Yoshi bops D3 pretty soundly (6:4).

But I don't think your character is top tier or anything.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Teshie U]

I think Fox's jab is intentional. He had jab jab U-smash in 64, so it makes sense for him to have it now. If Nintendo wanted to patch it out, they probably would of by now, but they're most likely aware of it and Fox's jab is gonna stay the same, unless it becomes problematic.

Not every carryover from previous games is intentional. A number of brawl ATs were in smash 3DS and then patched out. Some tech is just the result of making the same mistake each generation.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Not every carryover from previous games is intentional. A number of brawl ATs were in smash 3DS and then patched out. Some tech is just the result of making the same mistake each generation.

Yeah, DACUS existed in the first version of Smash 3DS too. It got patched out almost immediately, which further supports your point.

 

[Ffamran]

And how do you suppose people deal with it? Needles are one of the single most absurd moves in the game. Whatever draw-backs they have are completely nullified by Sheiks mobility. Endlag and charge time are irrelevant when Sheik can evade most of the cast long enough to use them for free. The only reason they havent gotten nerfed like Falcos blaster is because no one has actively abused them like people did with the blue lasers.

A Sheik that chooses to camp is worse to deal with than a campy Sonic. I totally understand the fear that anything somewhat difficult to deal with will get nerfed, but needles are the wrong posterboy for that. Needles arent difficult to deal with, when used correctly theyre impossible to deal with.

Projectiles in general are difficult to balance, especially in Smash games because of how they work compared to other fighting games. The main difference between Falco's Blaster and Sheik's Needles is that Falco's was made even more broken in Brawl which defies all logic of balancing. Lowered startup, increased fire rate that allowed him to short hop double laser effectively, and increased range. It's like taking 64 Kirby's Utilt and making it more disjointed instead of making the hitbox align to his foot and do something like make it easily chainable at low percents.

The other thing is that it seemed like the devs didn't even look back to Melee and compared how Melee Falco's Blaster worked versus Brawl. If Falco had his Melee Blaster in Brawl, he might not have have a butchered projectile. If he had a Blaster like Wolf's, Fox's Impact Blaster, or other shoot once and holster projectiles, he might not have had to deal with this and he probably would have dropped tiers in Brawl since he wouldn't have a broken tool. Back to Sheik, her Needles might have been bad for everyone, but they were not on the level of stupidity that Falco's was.

The intent for Sheik might have been to give her a "Din's Fire" or a projectile of her own to parallel Zelda sort of like how ZSS has a tether grab like her armored form, Samus... Could you all imagine the beast ZSS would be with a normal grab? Anyway, Sheik's projectile was probably supposed to interrupt and give her some ranged capability while having the charge time be the punishable part of using Needles. Oh, and needles or senbon are kinda ninja-y. Good in theory, but the problem comes when you look at Sheik as a whole. She is fast and that alone creates a problem since the end lag means nothing when she can rush right in while you're still in or recovering from hit stun. How do we fix this without butchering her projectile? Longer charge time won't do much when she can still wall you out, find time to charge or just use partially charged Needles. Decreased damage won't do much since only Bowser could power through them with tough guy if they only did 1% or less. Increased end lag might work, but too much and she ends up like Falco, a sitting duck. Set knockback or lowered knockback could work as they would still interrupt and annoy people. Less range could work as well, but that might not stop Sheik from setting up a range where she will screw you over every time you step into it.

There is one question: why is her Needles being left alone? Is it because they don't know how to fix it or is it because it's actually not a big deal? Needles are annoying, but they're not on the level of Brawl Falco Blaster annoying. Duck Hunt's projectiles at least have knockback to send you up and somewhat away from them while Sheik still needs to charge and take "breathers" between Needles, but Brawl Falco? Set knockback, extreme range, and he doesn't need to stop auto-canceling lasers to lock you down. He will slowly drag you to the ledge and laugh. He was a goddamned prick in Brawl.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

And how do you suppose people deal with it? Needles are one of the single most absurd moves in the game. Whatever draw-backs they have are completely nullified by Sheiks mobility. Endlag and charge time are irrelevant when Sheik can evade most of the cast long enough to use them for free. The only reason they havent gotten nerfed like Falcos blaster is because no one has actively abused them like people did with the blue lasers.

A Sheik that chooses to camp is worse to deal with than a campy Sonic. I totally understand the fear that anything somewhat difficult to deal with will get nerfed, but needles are the wrong posterboy for that. Needles arent difficult to deal with, when used correctly theyre impossible to deal with.

I believe this is going to be a match up dependent threat, as it can only cover 2 angles, which is horizontal and diagonals. Now, some characters can approach or outzone by other means (like ROB and yoshi) and some can overcome just by plainly outzoning. There will be characters that will have problems with this (Ganon, DK, D3, Ike, heavy characters), but that's what shielding and perfect shielding is for. And hey I heard this quote watching sf4 with zangief and ryu
"The health bar is a resource that the zangief must use well if he can't get in safely."

 

[Yonder]

That's if we are being generous, Luigi's bad MUs.

And maybe others who sticks out.


I'd love to be proven wrong.

IMO, my version of his bad matchups:

65:35: [At least nair is a godsend vs Sheik]
60:40
55:45:

The rest are mostly 50:50 or he beats slightly. Out of this list, About 5-6 are relevant in the Metagame currently [Sheik, Rosa, Pac Man, Falcon, Villager, Mega Man is rising] I don't find the Pits very bad. From versing my friend, a very good Pit secondary, I usually win as Luigi. Mostly watch for dair spikes. Fireball canning arrows is very handy. And if you are good enough...you can intercept their Up B with a tornado spike. And if they whiff their side Bs...free up B.

ROB on the other hand, is underrated in dificulty. You CANNOT touch a good ROB as Luigi. Cyclone doesn't clank with laser at all and gyro rarely. Just so tough...


Good Luigi matchups of note:

60:40:
55:45:

Only notably top tiers he beats. Rest he goes even with sans Sheik and Rosalina. Ganondorf is probably Luigi's best matchup at 5:35 customs off imo. Kirby is probably his 2nd best.

In the end of things, I have Luigi as 12th on my tier list, with Mario right under him at 13th.

 

[Superbat]

Opinions on Toon Link plz. lol

 

[Sinister Slush]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comi...results-coming-may-23rd.403672/#post-19259282
Results later but here's top 6
Megafox | Fox
Trela | Mii swordfighter
Fliphop | Diddy
Razer | C.falcon/??? (been picking up fox cuz OP, might've used him maybe not?)
Espy | Sonic/??? {maybe little mac)
Samboner | Sheik

There's something to discuss.

 

[warriorman222]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comi...results-coming-may-23rd.403672/#post-19259282
Results later but here's top 6
Megafox | Fox
Trela | Mii swordfighter
Fliphop | Diddy
Razer | C.falcon/??? (been picking up fox cuz OP, might've used him maybe not?)
Espy | Sonic/??? {maybe little mac)
Samboner | Sheik

There's something to discuss.

Bottom tier... U wot m8

On that topic, what do people think about Swordfighter? All I know is that his uair makes me want to rip my hair out.

 

[Antonykun]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comi...results-coming-may-23rd.403672/#post-19259282
Results later but here's top 6
Megafox | Fox
Trela | Mii swordfighter
Fliphop | Diddy
Razer | C.falcon/??? (been picking up fox cuz OP, might've used him maybe not?)
Espy | Sonic/??? {maybe little mac)
Samboner | Sheik

There's something to discuss.

Here I was hoping trela would beat megafox w/e the god of the Swordfighter boards did really well again.

 

[Teshie U]

Trela finally dropped a set with miiswordfighter and it had to be megafox to actually stop him?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dthrow uair is the truth.
Sheik has it. (best character)
Luigi has it. (top 5 most peoples list)
ROB has it. (Holy finally beating his brother Ally)
Mii Brawler has it. (top 10 in customs on environment)
Mii Swordfighter has it.
This is the truth... free follow ups into kills is our future

Here I was hoping trela would beat megafox w/e the god of the Swordfighter boards did really well again.

He reset the bracket in GF from what I was told. Not sure on the wins and all that just yet though.

 

[Kofu]

I haven't watched much of Trela's Sword fighter vids but I noticed his copious use of Gale Strike. Despite its slow startup and long lag it makes s big projectile that hits multiple times (catches opponents in shields) and can be tough to work around.

 

[webbedspace]

The VOD footage unexpectedly cut out and lost the entirety of finals (of course) but you can watch early bracket here, I guess.

 

[Firefoxx]

Opinions on Toon Link plz. lol

He's super boring.

 

[Antonykun]

I haven't watched much of Trela's Sword fighter vids but I noticed his copious use of Gale Strike. Despite its slow startup and long lag it makes s big projectile that hits multiple times (catches opponents in shields) and can be tough to work around.

When I use GS I feel like I need to give @GeneralLedge and @ ZarroTsu Money Or Something. I still think SoL is better but not by much.