Character Competitive Impressions

[Makorel]

That was some really good Pit play especially against the WFT. Big Boss's playstyle makes good use of most of Pit's tools but I think it was missing something, which would be more use of Upperdash Arm as an offensive tool. I noticed two points during the Fox match where I wanted to see it come out but it didn't. The first point was towards the middle when Fox was hopping around occasionally throwing out hitboxes but not moving too far away or using shield. He was looking for something to convert into a kill without being killed himself and that's when (Big)Boss should have dashed forward with his Upperdash to nail him, because Upperdash don't care about that nonsense. The second point was at the end which was a similar situation except Fox was less wary since he was only at 80. If Pit had Upperdashed when that last upsmash came out he would have leaned back, the smash would have wiffed and he would have gotten the kill on him since Pit had rage and Fox is super light.

Upperdash would have also been nice to see against Villager but less necessary compared to just playing better I think. It's not really unsafe to use against Villager since it reflects bowling ball and tree (even despite how that match played out) and the worst that can happen usually is that Villager's fair stuffs it, but timed correctly and it can power straight through it for some decent damage and another juggle opportunity.

 

[webbedspace]

Those grand finals were good. I didn't even know Ness had an up-tilt until today.

 

[Luco]

Oh upset I missed it! Does anyone remember the results? Sounds like V pulled out Ness in GFs for... Wave? Earl?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Oh upset I missed it! Does anyone remember the results? Sounds like V pulled out Ness in GFs for... Wave? Earl?

Grand Finals?

I'm pretty damn sure it was Atyeo.

 

[Luco]

Grand Finals?

I'm pretty damn sure it was Atyeo.

Just checked, I think it was V!

EDIT: I derped hard, Atyeo was the other finalist, so you were totally correct.

Also considering the GFs were V vs. Atyeo, that's pretty damn cool (NSW getting on VIC's level... It's been far too long ).

 

[Shaya]

We dominated Brawl results towards the end and it was mostly even prior to that otherwise.

 

[Luco]

We dominated Brawl results towards the end and it was mostly even prior to that otherwise.

Hmm, I seem to recall Vic had the edge, wasn't the only recent one we won like, BAM 2014?

I'll take your word for it though I guess, perhaps this was some perpetuated myth I was being fed so that I wouldn't have any state pride. *cries*

ALSO who got Bowser Jr to top 8 in that tournament, because that's pretty awesome.

What is the consensus with DHD and Bowser Jr now (they tend to get pulled together a lot but I'm also just interested in both of them)? Does Bowser Jr have any crippling MUs or does he suffer from a larger amount of less disadvantageous ones?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am also interessted in the general consensus about Mewtwo. I hardly see any matchups being discussed about him. All everyone is ever saying is "yeah he's Mid Tier" "has potential but dies horribly horrbily fast". But nobody really discussed matchups regarding Mewtwo. Am pretty sure he's losing badly to the likes of , but who does he do well against?

 

[bc1910]

Heh. I remember certain Sakurai interview where he said "this character we considered average actually has good results in For Glory, and we still don't know how".
And a lot of people thought of Link immediately. We all know Sakurai wants him and a bunch of other characters to be bad.

I remember that, or another very similar situation. I remember people speculating (or maybe Sakurai hinted?) that he was talking about Luigi. I wonder if they consider him an average character?

I think it's interesting to think about that. Like, I wonder if they've been nerfing/buffing the characters they thought they might have to nerf or buff. I have a feeling they strongly suspected Greninja would need a nerf because his 3DS release Usmash was really crazy. I don't know about the Rosalina nerfs, though. Maybe they thought/think she's a lot more vulnerable without Luma than she really is.

Am also interessted in the general consensus about Mewtwo. I hardly see any matchups being discussed about him. All everyone is ever saying is "yeah he's Mid Tier" "has potential but dies horribly horrbily fast". But nobody really discussed matchups regarding Mewtwo. Am pretty sure he's losing badly to the likes of , but who does he do well against?

Sadly I think the answer is "not many characters". Considering broad character archetypes, he struggles with the faster characters because he can't match their speed or even damage output up close. A typical heavy can run a damage deficit quite comfortably because they kill speedsters (who tend to be light) early and live for a long time, and while Mewtwo kills early he's probably not outliving anyone who isn't a big pink balloon. And with the heavies, Mewtwo can probably beat them in damage due to having better combos than most of them but as I said, heavies don't mind running a damage deficit because they kill early, and Mewtwo is getting killed VERY early.

This is all relative mind you. Doing badly against a character in this game isn't as crippling as it used to be, I don't think Mewtwo is losing to anyone as badly as he was in Melee.

On the more positive side I think he does extremely well against zoners, he has a great projectile as well as a reflector. Most of the zoners have pretty poor kill potential too, Mewtwo can last surprisingly long against the likes of Samus, Duck Hunt and Mega Man. I think he also does well against Villager, although he REALLY has to be careful of falling trees (and bowling balls).

 

[meleebrawler]

Am also interessted in the general consensus about Mewtwo. I hardly see any matchups being discussed about him. All everyone is ever saying is "yeah he's Mid Tier" "has potential but dies horribly horrbily fast". But nobody really discussed matchups regarding Mewtwo. Am pretty sure he's losing badly to the likes of , but who does he do well against?

Anybody that can't consistently bully Mewtwo at close range and prevent him from taking decisive action.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Am also interessted in the general consensus about Mewtwo. I hardly see any matchups being discussed about him. All everyone is ever saying is "yeah he's Mid Tier" "has potential but dies horribly horrbily fast". But nobody really discussed matchups regarding Mewtwo. Am pretty sure he's losing badly to the likes of , but who does he do well against?

It really depends on who you are asking.

Someone like @Raykz will tell you that looses to , and others will say vice versa.

Also, I need to know more about the vs MU.
I've heard @Thinkaman say that Mac wins it, but how much I may never know...

 

[Diddy Kong]

is also bad against sword characters I heard, so that really doesn't leave a whole lot of positive matchups does it?

Even heard the likes of are bad for .

So does that really mean he'll only be effective against the likes of *? * will most likely beat Mewtwo solidly when he has Dragon Rush however.

is also floaty and a zoner, but definitely beats is just about everything. Also heard a lot of times that is troublesome, and so is .

Is it safe to assume that Mewtwo is actually a Low Tier character now? Around the realm of potential as ? Cause I really do think so.

Matchups am quite undecided about are:

Matchups I know he's losing are:

So that really does leave him at the lower end of the tier list I think.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Honestly confident that Mewtwo loses to Wario too

The more I learn about the character, the better I feel he is. A defensive character that forces approaches with the passive threat of a charging kill move that will erase souls around 50%, a move as silly and versatile as the bike, and a lingering and lagless command grab - among other things - make for a threatening character that gives his opponent incentive to mount an offensive while also having the tools to prevent them from doing so.

I'm not sure what his matchups against the upper echelon of characters look like though. It'd be cool if some Wario mains could shed some light on that (I see you @TheReflexWonder @ Spinosaurus )

He has a harder time against characters that could rush him down and harass him if he's trying to camp like Fox and Sheik. I don't think he outright loses to anyone though, but rushdown makes up like most of the top tiers soo..although I think Sonic and Pikachu are probably even. Yoshi is probably his worst.

That's from my own experience though. Reflex would know more than I do.

 

[Smog Frog]

even if is on the lower end, i still believe the right player can take him places. the only matchups i think he loses worse than 6-4 is and .

 

[Diddy Kong]

Oh yeah Wario. If it wasn't for Reflex the character was almost non existant so sorry I forget about him. Wario in Smash 4 is much like Yoshi in all other games. Ridiculously overlooked. But yeah, he beats Mewtwo up.

 

[PUK]

Here is i think one of the only recorded match of gluttony. There is Leon too

 

[|RK|]

Well that's the theory part down - are there any high-level Mewtwo's at this point?

 

[bc1910]

I think Mewtwo loses to Greninja, he just can't catch him. Dies at laughable percents to Usmash. Also Greninja's speed allows him to zone Mewtwo a bit because if he throws out pre-emptive confusions Greninja just dashes in and punishes.

I think Mewtwo probably loses to ROB as well. ROB can't zone him very easily but he's probably better up close and the Beep Boop (Dthrow -> Uair) kills Mewtwo at 80%. It can kill even earlier than that with bad DI.

 

[Smog Frog]

Well that's the theory part down - are there any high-level Mewtwo's at this point?

there's trela but he's a lower tier god in general. he seems committed to rather than , though. beyond that i cant really think of any high level s.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Well that's the theory part down - are there any high-level Mewtwo's at this point?

I know Tweek uses him, but don't know if he took him to a tournament.

 

[Firefoxx]

After his release Dabuz said something about using him as a secondary, but I don't know if that's still a thing.

 

[Dabuz]

After his release Dabuz said something about using him as a secondary, but I don't know if that's still a thing.

I stopped because he is hot garbage, could see him being bottom 5, hell, bottom 2.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think Mewtwo loses to Greninja, he just can't catch him. Dies at laughable percents to Usmash. Also Greninja's speed allows him to zone Mewtwo a bit because if he throws out pre-emptive confusions Greninja just dashes in and punishes.

I think Mewtwo probably loses to ROB as well. ROB can't zone him very easily but he's probably better up close and the Beep Boop (Dthrow -> Uair) kills Mewtwo at 80%. It can kill even earlier than that with bad DI.

I don't see how ROB is really "better" than Mewtwo in close quarters, sure he may be a bit faster in some respects
but it's not like he can continuously stay in his face or close in on small mistakes. ROB fair is the move that'll probably give him the most trouble, but that's a spacing move in neutral. The robot's projectile game is what helps ease his issues with approaching
but Mewtwo can neuter that pretty well. He's a big target and is fairly easily gimped.

 

[bc1910]

Not only are most of his moves faster than Mewtwo's, he has an extremely good throw combo (which can be used repeatedly to punish small mistakes, as you put it) and a massive Nair that's incredibly easy to hit with. It being a SH aerial also means using it takes ROB out of range of Mewtwo's only stellar move up close (Dtilt). Don't see how he isn't better than Mewtwo in close quarters.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think people overlook uptilt as an anti-air move. its disjointed, huge, and quick(comes out on frame 7 and covers roughly a 135 degree angle diagonally above his head, with his massive tail).

 

[Nobie]

I think a lot of the X character or X character type is bad for Mewtwo comes from a lot of initial impressions that are tinted by just how Glass Cannon-ey Mewtwo is. I don't think M2 really loses to sword characters, for example, because it has a lot of ground speed, tricky aerial setups, and enough disjointed range on certain normals to take advantage of holes, but if what you mainly remember are the times Mewtwo gets juggled, or the times Mewtwo dies at a low percent to a rogue F-Smash, then it's going to seem like Mewtwo is at a disadvantage when I don't think it really is. Similarly, while Little Mac clearly beats Mewtwo in neutral, I don't know if the matchup is all that bad for the Pokemon just because it has tools to 1) beat Little Mac's armor 2) a powerful back throw that will kill even sooner than usual cause it's Little Mac 3) a vicious juggling game that can literally carry Little Mac from one end of the stage to the other.

Basically, when Mewtwo's game is in full swing it makes you feel like a god, but when Mewtwo's getting thrashed it makes you feel awful. That swing in emotions I think heavily affects how people view Mewtwo matchups, and it takes a lot of stepping back and looking carefully at tools, and at how much people are comfortable with using a character that walks such a tricky tightrope at all times. Using Mewtwo sometimes feels like a batlte with your own morale just as much as it is a battle with the opponent. Can you regain your composure enough to calmly look at the situation and use Mewtwo's best tools, or do you get desperate with grabs and eat a smash attack?

People talked about how Mewtwo is kind of similar to Ganondorf but trades weight for a bit of speed and an excellent projectile, and I think that comparison still stands to some extent. If Mewtwo can survive to about 100%, and if you play right that's not out of the realm of possibility, just being able to threaten with an up-throw KO at all times gives M2 the sense of a constant threat that few characters can manage, especially when it's about a grab.

On a somewhat related note, I'm curious as to whether people get a fresh perspective on their mains after using other characters for a while. The reason I bring this up is because I sort of had this experience after setting aside Mega Man to use Mewtwo for a long time. Two things stood out to me most after doing so.

First, I totally under-appreciated Mega Upper. I mean, I knew it was good, and that it was a strong KO move, but I didn't fully comprehend how insane it is to have a frame-6 vertical KO that can take out anyone, even King Dedede, at <100% WITHOUT RAGE. Second, after using Mewtwo it made me realize just how forgiving a character Mega Man is when it comes to taking hits. While MM is vulnerable up close, he's heavy and a fast faller, which means he can just take hits. I can make twice as many mistakes as Mega Man compared to when using Mewtwo, and it kind of brought a fresh set of eyes to both characters in the process.

 

[bc1910]

i think people overlook uptilt as an anti-air move. its disjointed, huge, and quick(comes out on frame 7 and covers roughly a 135 degree angle diagonally above his head, with his massive tail).

I did consider his Utilt before saying what I said about Dtilt but frankly, I don't like that move because of how inconsistent the hitbox is. The tip of the tail knocks away, that's fair enough, but once you're inside the tail's range there are two different hitboxes and only one of them (the one that knocks them just above Mewtwo and combos into Usmash) is good. Where exactly this hitbox is seems to change depending on the MU, sometimes it's on Mewtwo's body, sometimes it's in the middle of the tail and sometimes it's like it's not there at all.

Now in terms of a safe anti-air yes it is overlooked but there are a lot of much more rewarding anti-airs that are almost as safe, or just as safe (basically a lot of other Utilts are better).

 

[Smog Frog]

I did consider his Utilt before saying what I said about Dtilt but frankly, I don't like that move because of how inconsistent the hitbox is. The tip of the tail knocks away, that's fair enough, but once you're inside the tail's range there are two different hitboxes and only one of them (the one that knocks them just above Mewtwo and combos into Usmash) is good. Where exactly this hitbox is seems to change depending on the MU, sometimes it's on Mewtwo's body, sometimes it's in the middle of the tail and sometimes it's like it's not there at all.

Now in terms of a safe anti-air yes it is overlooked but there are a lot of much more rewarding anti-airs that are almost as safe, or just as safe (basically a lot of other Utilts are better).

if the hitbox you're talking about is the one i'm thinking of(the one that knocks them up and very slightly behind ), that combos into bair for a meaty 15-18%. utilts inconsistent hitboxes are definitely an annoyance, though.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Loses to .

Mewtwo is of the perfect weight, height, and floatyness to be jr's perfect combo food. While confusion can shut down the mechakoopa approach, mewtwo lacks options to deal with an incoming clown kart. Also, having a slow jump against junior is actually very bad, especially offstage edgeguards.

 

[Smog Frog]

is the clown kart disjointed or otherwise invulnerable/armored? because if its not disjointed i think dtilt could beat it, and maybe confusion, and it could probably be punished by disable if its carelessly thrown out.

 

[Project Quarantine]

is the clown kart disjointed or otherwise invulnerable/armored? because if its not disjointed i think dtilt could beat it, and maybe confusion, and it could probably be punished by disable if its carelessly thrown out.

Once it is going full speed it is armored, but some things can hit (I don't really know exactly how this works). These things include arcfire, pkfire, and other extended hitboxes. Confusion is a command grab, so that can beat the kart, but the point is to bait out M2 to confusion the mechakoopa in neutral. Even as it turns back at you, junior plows through it and hits M2 as he is vulnerable. The kart would beat dtilt, or jr can just jump over it and dair for a combo starter. A good junior won't get disabled when in the kart.

 

[bc1910]

I do think Jr beats Mewtwo, but not because the kart dash screws him up. Mewtwo's Usmash is very fast (6 frames I believe) so if Jr jumps when the kart hits Mewtwo's shield, he should get punished for it. Jr can also spin out which can be punished to varying degrees depending on a lot of factors like when he spins out or how close he is to the ledge. He can also just keep driving, which probably won't get punished but will probably leave Jr offstage in a bad recovery position.

@ Smog Frog The armor is on the kart, not the Koopa, but Mewtwo's Dtilt hits really low so I think kart dash would armor through it.

 

[Trifroze]

even if is on the lower end, i still believe the right player can take him places. the only matchups i think he loses worse than 6-4 is and .

For some odd reason Falcon's dthrow (buffered from dash grab) to knee works on Mewtwo with any DI from 20% to about 80%. It's not strict at all and with optimal DI and no rage he dies to it between 40 and 60% depending on where he's grabbed. This almost works on a few other lightweights but they can just barely get out of it with up+away DI while Mewtwo can't. If all else fails bair will do the job after those percents. I was going to use Mewtwo as a secondary before he came out but apparently they won't be serious with DLC characters.

So yeah, Mewtwo should realistically always expect to die at 50% vs Falcon if he makes a single mistake. Probably enough to call the matchup 2:8 considering he already loses to rushdown and combos.

 

[Firefoxx]

For some odd reason Falcon's dthrow (buffered from dash grab) to knee works on Mewtwo with any DI from 20% to about 80%. It's not strict at all and with optimal DI and no rage he dies to it between 40 and 60% depending on where he's grabbed. This almost works on a few other lightweights but they can just barely get out of it with up+away DI while Mewtwo can't. If all else fails bair will do the job after those percents. I was going to use Mewtwo as a secondary before he came out but apparently they won't be serious with DLC characters.

So yeah, Mewtwo should realistically always expect to die at 50% vs Falcon if he makes a single mistake. Probably enough to call the matchup 2:8 considering he already loses to rushdown and combos.

I mean, they clearly wanted to keep him close to his Melee incarnation. Its just that he was trash in Melee, so he's pretty trash here.

I mean hell, he's probably better here than he is in Melee. But Tall, Light, and Floaty is such a death sentence when you're that light.

 

[meleebrawler]

For some odd reason Falcon's dthrow (buffered from dash grab) to knee works on Mewtwo with any DI from 20% to about 80%. It's not strict at all and with optimal DI and no rage he dies to it between 40 and 60% depending on where he's grabbed. This almost works on a few other lightweights but they can just barely get out of it with up+away DI while Mewtwo can't. If all else fails bair will do the job after those percents. I was going to use Mewtwo as a secondary before he came out but apparently they won't be serious with DLC characters.

So yeah, Mewtwo should realistically always expect to die at 50% vs Falcon if he makes a single mistake. Probably enough to call the matchup 2:8 considering he already loses to rushdown and combos.

Just because dash grab-buffered dthrow always puts Mewtwo in a position to possibly be hit by a knee doesn't
mean it's guaranteed to work. It's hard to believe knee can true combo from anything, can't Mewtwo just airdodge or
confusion jump to avoid this if he knows it's coming?

And 20:80 is a bit of a stretch considering how hard Mewtwo can combo Falcon off of a solid hit as well as his relative
ease at gimping him.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So I see people randomly mentioning Mii Swordfighter now and then basically because of Trella, but I wanted to examine him in depth, see what people actually think about him in notable matchups. The first one being Rosalina

Why I wanted to discuss her in particular was because I hit the lab randomly today and found out that Mii Swordfighter actually has a LOT of ways to deal with Luma. Nair separates Rosalina from Luma, and it's odd trajectory can send Luma off stage to her doom surprisingly well (either way with good work it can hurt both Rosalina AND Luma at worst). Fair can be nasty against Luma at times, and if pressed hard can even hit Rosalina as well. Dair's hitbox right when it hits the ground (the one that makes the visual effect) flings Luma away too and can pop her offstage to her death or tack on solid damage.

Sending the nado out at her is also curious. If she sheilds from a distance it's no biggie, but if she makes the mistake of trying to magically bring the nado to her it usually gives you enough time to actually get in a dash attack. Did I mention dash attack ALSO can send Luma off the stage pretty darn well? His counter also tends to do a darn good job of getting Luma out of the picture so Mii Swordfighter can press his advantage.

So he has all the tools to try and get Luma out of the way, and nice hitboxes to hit Rosalina's bulkier frame, and some solid attacks to kill her off, I almost wonder if he'd have at least a decent shot in the matchup. Wouldn't hurt to have an advantage against a painful top tier for most, what do you all think?

I'm assuming vanilla Sm4sh as well.

 

[Trifroze]

Just because dash grab-buffered dthrow always puts Mewtwo in a position to possibly be hit by a knee doesn't
mean it's guaranteed to work. It's hard to believe knee can true combo from anything, can't Mewtwo just airdodge or
confusion jump to avoid this if he knows it's coming?

I'd like to think that if anyone makes a claim such as the one I made, it's because they tested and confirmed it. I wouldn't specifically bring it up and call it odd if it wasn't guaranteed to work. Otherwise it would apply to every character and there would be no reason to mention any of this. It isn't a case of believing, it's a case of testing it in training mode and you're free to do so yourself. To be clear:

- Dash grab dthrow true combos into knee at kill percents (40-80%) regardless of DI on Mewtwo and I'm fairly sure it's only possible on him. There are no other characters as light as him who aren't floaty enough to escape the follow-up, and dthrow has less endlag the lighter the character thrown is.

- Dash grab dthrow true combos into bair at kill percents (80-105%) regardless of DI on at least Pikachu, ZSS, Mewtwo and Meta Knight.

- Dash grab dthrow true combos into uair at kill percents (110-125%) regardless of DI on at least Pikachu, ZSS, Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Rosalina, Sheik, Fox, Falco and Kirby.

 

[David Viran]

I'd like to think that if anyone makes a claim such as the one I made, it's because they tested and confirmed it. I wouldn't specifically bring it up and call it odd if it wasn't guaranteed to work. Otherwise it would apply to every character and there would be no reason to mention any of this. It isn't a case of believing, it's a case of testing it in training mode and you're free to do so yourself. To be clear:

- Dash grab dthrow true combos into knee at kill percents (40-80%) regardless of DI on Mewtwo and I'm fairly sure it's only possible on him. There are no other characters as light as him who aren't floaty enough to escape the follow-up, and dthrow has less endlag the lighter the character thrown is.

- Dash grab dthrow true combos into bair at kill percents (80-105%) regardless of DI on at least Pikachu, ZSS, Mewtwo and Meta Knight.

- Dash grab dthrow true combos into uair at kill percents (110-125%) regardless of DI on at least Pikachu, ZSS, Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Rosalina, Sheik, Fox, Falco and Kirby.

Did you test it looking at the combo thing in training mode or did someone else mash air dodge? The training mode combo thing is a lie.

 

[Blobface]

Am also interessted in the general consensus about Mewtwo. I hardly see any matchups being discussed about him. All everyone is ever saying is "yeah he's Mid Tier" "has potential but dies horribly horrbily fast". But nobody really discussed matchups regarding Mewtwo. Am pretty sure he's losing badly to the likes of , but who does he do well against?

Well, there's a big problems with really making matchups against Mewtwo; lack of notable players. Most people when working with matchups "in theory" tend to overestimate their character's strengths and underestimate their characters weaknesses, (me included of course) mainly due to being more familiar with their own character than the other. As a result, the best way to understand a matchup is to simply play it with someone who knows the other character. But since nobody uses him anywhere near his full potential, getting a solid idea of a matchup with him is nearly impossible

 

[KenMeister]

Well, there's a big problems with really making matchups against Mewtwo; lack of notable players. Most people when working with matchups "in theory" tend to overestimate their character's strengths and underestimate their characters weaknesses, (me included of course) mainly due to being more familiar with their own character than the other. As a result, the best way to understand a matchup is to simply play it with someone who knows the other character. But since nobody uses him anywhere near his full potential, getting a solid idea of a matchup with him is nearly impossible

Same. I honestly believe that MUs need to be proven with the best players of said character against another, otherwise you end up with an underdeveloped MU chart, like Brawl. Theory crafting means nothing to me when an option around another can be figured out given time.