Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

Mewtwo is way better than in Melee, but is ultimately one of the worst characters in the game. That does't mean all that much in Smash 4 compared to many other games, but it is what it is.

He plays sort of like Ganondorf, with alternate focus on projectile/reflection and recovery.

I don't know of a single matchup Mewtwo wins.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't think Mewtwo is bottom 5 at all.

I think Mewtwo currently does suffer a lot against most matchups (which does put him at a very low position) but when I play Mewtwo or watch Mewtwo I can't help but just know that Mewtwo is so far off from being played anywhere nearly as good as he could be.

I am not claiming Mewtwo is high tier or anything, but it does feel like he needs to be explored much further and he does have a lot of solid stuff. High damage combos, good juggler, easy early kills, easy gimps. Not everyone can claim to have all 4 of those.



I do think Mewtwo has a hard time against rushdowns and he also has a hard time against characters with long and fast hitboxes (I would have said sword characters but Little Mac is also a problem because of how fast and far all of his moves reach).

I honestly don't think Mewtwo is bottom tier material, but I am also not a top level player so it's not like I am the most knowledgeable. What I can say though is that if you play Mewtwo enough you will notice how even watching the best Mewtwo's play (Trella or whomever you desire) you can tell that they still have a long way to go with the character. Something that isn't as noticeable on other top tier chars (not saying top tier chars won't advance in their own meta, just saying it isn't as blatantly obvious that the char isn't being played close to it's full potential).

 

[KenMeister]

Mewtwo is way better than in Melee, but is ultimately one of the worst characters in the game. That does't mean all that much in Smash 4 compared to many other games, but it is what it is.

He plays sort of like Ganondorf, with alternate focus on projectile/reflection and recovery.

I don't know of a single matchup Mewtwo wins.

Guessing someone who lacks good approach options or any way of making Mewtwo commit. Kirby sort of comes to mind.

 

[Thinkaman]

Mewtwo's matchups probably look similar to Ganondorf's tbqh.

I don't mean to be a negative nancy. Mewtwo might be bottom whatever, but that doesn't mean he's useless.

He's the only character will a deadly projectile AND a reflector, and he has a kill throw second only to Ness. Those are really non-trivial traits, and definitely sets him apparent from the floating lemur of Melee days.

 

[Firefoxx]

I believe buffered d-throw to knee true combos regardless of DI on Marcina at KO percents, but its pretty frame tight and the percent range it works at is pretty tiny.

I would have more reliable data on it, but im at work so I cant test to be sure

 

[Trifroze]

Did you test it looking at the combo thing in training mode or did someone else mash air dodge? The training mode combo thing is a lie.

The training mode combo counter is one of those things that misbehaves in very specific scenarios like Mewtwo's side b, has since gotten brought up a few times and now some people think it doesn't work at all. It's very reliable with 99% of the moves in the game. Either way, dthrow results in the same amount of frames of hitstun at any given percent in both training mode and a real match, and the combo counter only registers a follow-up from Falcon's dthrow when the opponent is in hitstun. That and I've tried escaping it in 1/4 speed.

 

[Ikes]

So what are the best kill throws in the game?

A few that come to mind are Toon Links bthrow, Ness' bthrow, Mewtwo's uthrow, but what others are there?

 

[Firefoxx]

So what are the best kill throws in the game?

A few that come to mind are Toon Links bthrow, Ness' bthrow, Mewtwo's uthrow, but what others are there?

http://smashboards.com/threads/throw-ko-percents.387043/#post-18405663

Still has ROB's pre-patch up-throw data, but still a great resource

 

[Smog Frog]

bthrow, // bthrow, uthrow, fthrow, and i *think* bthrow are all good kill throws. bthrow is also still good as a "you lived too long you need to die" throw.

 

[Splash Damage]

Also, I need to know more about the vs MU.
I've heard @ Thinkaman say that Mac wins it, but how much I may never know...

Abridged, Mac wins convincingly.
Long version:All of Mac's followups from D-tilt work for rather long on M2, all of his kill moves work on him incredibly early, He's very easy to hit w/Mac's kill moves including Up-B, All of M2's options to edgeguard Mac are easily avoided especially with customs, ect. ect.

 

[Chiroz]

The training mode combo counter is one of those things that misbehaves in very specific scenarios like Mewtwo's side b, has since gotten brought up a few times and now some people think it doesn't work at all. It's very reliable with 99% of the moves in the game. Either way, dthrow results in the same amount of frames of hitstun at any given percent in both training mode and a real match, and the combo counter only registers a follow-up from Falcon's dthrow when the opponent is in hitstun. That and I've tried escaping it in 1/4 speed.

While I haven't tested it at all with a good player (or just outright trying to test it), I've only been D-Thrown to Knee once where I couldn't air dodge and I was DIng towards the stage by mistake. It might be that the Falcon's I've played against might just be too slow to do it or something. How tight is the timing I might give this a test with a Falcon friend of mine.

 

[PUK]

While I haven't tested it at all with a good player (or just outright trying to test it), I've only been D-Thrown to Knee once where I couldn't air dodge and I was DIng towards the stage by mistake. It might be that the Falcon's I've played against might just be too slow to do it or something. How tight is the timing I might give this a test with a Falcon friend of mine.

I think rage increase KB without increasing hitstun. Vectoring too and in some way scaling can mess too with combo. Training mode is definitively the best option we have but it's not enough

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think M2 just needs taj again or somebody like him to prove his worth, because all this talk about him having no good MUs is just baffling to me.

 

[wedl!!]

matchups I'm quite undecided about are: .

gets wrecked by basically because of dtilt. 60:40 advantage

 

[Kofu]

http://smashboards.com/threads/throw-ko-percents.387043/#post-18405663

Still has ROB's pre-patch up-throw data, but still a great resource

I still need to update that with the patched throws (someone else will have to the the Mewtwo data because I don't have him on 3DS lol). Don't remember the exact numbers but ROB's UThrow now kills slightly later that blue Pikmin UThrow (not sure how rage affects it though).

 

[Trifroze]

Bowser's bthrow and fthrow are stronger than Sonic's bthrow especially from the very edge. Sonic's bthrow is now Falcon / Diddy / Robin / Mega Man / everyone level. It's weaker from the edge than most but stronger if it gets to benefit from the full startup roll backwards.

While I haven't tested it at all with a good player (or just outright trying to test it), I've only been D-Thrown to Knee once where I couldn't air dodge and I was DIng towards the stage by mistake. It might be that the Falcon's I've played against might just be too slow to do it or something. How tight is the timing I might give this a test with a Falcon friend of mine.

Just tested and checked frame by frame. At 50% Mewtwo can act out of Falcon's dthrow on frame 41 starting from when damage registers. With up+away DI (optimal for avoiding the knee), the fastest I could connect with the knee was frame 37. There's 4, maybe 5 frames of leeway.

EDIT: Actually it was 42 and 37.

 

[Firefoxx]

Just tested and checked frame by frame. At 50% Mewtwo can act out of Falcon's dthrow on frame 41 starting from when damage registers. With up+away DI (optimal for avoiding the knee), the fastest I could connect with the knee was frame 37. There's 4, maybe 5 frames of leeway.

Damn, that's almost as easy as falling u-air to knee

 

[san.]

From what I know, rage increases hitstun, but vectoring/DI doesn't.

 

[PUK]

From what I know, rage increases hitstun, but vectoring/DI doesn't.

Yeah it's such a strange mechanic. Some combos which work at high percent but not at mid percent are messed but not like if rage was increasing hitstun as much at it was increasing KB. Some little percent combo don't work at all even with a 40% window and some (ROB Uthrow Uair for exemple) just don't work at all

 

[san.]

Yeah it's such a strange mechanic. Some combos which work at high percent but not at mid percent are messed but not like if rage was increasing hitstun as much at it was increasing KB. Some little percent combo don't work at all even with a 40% window and some (ROB Uthrow Uair for exemple) just don't work at all

Yeah, that's what I'm kind of worried about, too, whether or not rage increases hitstun at the same rate as if it was a higher % with 0 rage instead.

The answer I got was here, by the way: http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-28#post-19187897

Combos at the higher end seem to be easier right after I lose a stock, but that may not factually be the case.

 

[FullMoon]

About kill throws, Greninja's up-throw is a pretty good kill throw too. It kills vertically so it doesn't depend on closeness to the ledge as much as other throws to kill reliably and Greninja also has an easier time landing grabs than most so it's very convenient kill move for when the opponent just isn't dying.

Smart play can also make it so that Up-Throw isn't too stale either and of course it's great in stages with low ceilings, I even managed to kill Mario at 80% with it on Halberd once lol.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

About kill throws, Greninja's up-throw is a pretty good kill throw too. It kills vertically so it doesn't depend on closeness to the ledge as much as other throws to kill reliably and Greninja also has an easier time landing grabs than most so it's very convenient kill move for when the opponent just isn't dying.

Smart play can also make it so that Up-Throw isn't too stale either and of course it's great in stages with low ceilings, I even managed to kill Mario at 80% with it on Halberd once lol.

Eh. That's halberd more than anything. I don't like keeping Uthrow fresh; that's my only problem with it. It's a reliable combo starter. On Halberd, yeah I'd leave it fresh. Everywhere else bar Delfino, I stale it. That's just me though.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo is way better than in Melee, but is ultimately one of the worst characters in the game. That does't mean all that much in Smash 4 compared to many other games, but it is what it is.

He plays sort of like Ganondorf, with alternate focus on projectile/reflection and recovery.

I don't know of a single matchup Mewtwo wins.

It seems like Mewtwo is starting to get an inverse version of Ganondorf's asterisk in matchups.
Whereas Ganon is like "sure you may beat his neutral handily but he'll kill you if he reads you", Mewtwo is like (hypothetically)
"sure his neutral is better than yours but he dies easily if he screws up".

 

[FullMoon]

Eh. That's halberd more than anything. I don't like keeping Uthrow fresh; that's my only problem with it. It's a reliable combo starter. On Halberd, yeah I'd leave it fresh. Everywhere else bar Delfino, I stale it. That's just me though.

Up-Throw isn't really that reliable of a combo starter past mid percentages so after that period I prefer to just save it for a kill. I like to use D-Throw a lot too since the angle it throws the opponent is pretty good for mixups even if there's nothing guaranteed out of it. Sometimes I also use B-Throw just because it deals the most damage out of Greninja's throws and so on.

I don't keep Up-Throw 100% fresh all the time though, but I do try to keep it as fresh as possible if I can and it works well for the most part.

 

[Smog Frog]

wouldnt get that * too? actually sounds like the postergirl for that kind of *.

 

[MezzoMe]

Now that @ meleebrawler mentions it, Ganon and Mewtwo match-ups might have some heavy differences, such as the Rosalina one, for Mewtwo, while being disadvantaged, is probably one, if not his best among the top-tier ones, while Ganondorf's is flat out his worst match-up ever analyzed(though barring Luigi none of other top-tiers have been analized and his discussion was quite a while ago), for the first it's slightly disadvantaged, for the second it's an Brawlimar-like match-up, maybe not that much for the actual ratio but rather for how oppressive it is to deal with.

 

[meleebrawler]

gets wrecked by basically because of dtilt. 60:40 advantage

Whose dtilt, Peach's? While I can see it being a good combo starter against Mewtwo, it's kind of slow and it's
reach kind of pales in comparison to Mewtwo's. He also moves faster than her, has greater range on average and his
fair is a valuable, speedy tool against Peach in the air.

 

[bc1910]

Bear in mind if you define a kill throw as a throw that kills at around 130% (or even 140%) then Ness and Mewtwo are literally the only characters in the game who have reliable kill throws. A few characters can kill below 130% with certain throws near the ledge e.g. Charizard's Dthrow, Toon Link's Bthrow, although a lot of those are badly affected by horizontal DI/vectoring.

So with that in mind I generally consider a good kill throw to be one that kills at 150-160%, I know that seems late but throws generally kill late in this game (and have done in every game in the series except 64 really). So you have Olimar's blue Pikmin Uthrow and ROB's Uthrow killing at about 150% (ROB's killed at 140% before the nerf), then Greninja and Link's Uthrows killing at about 160% with Marcina's Uthrow killing a tiny bit later. You also have a lot of Bthrows near the ledge and Wario's, the Pits' and Bowser's Fthrows.

 

[Psyruby]

I'm confused at people who think Mewtwo has no good match ups. The only match ups that he has a clear disadvantage is very fast aggro. Falcon, Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Fox, and I'm going to include Little Mac cause that match up is very relevant. I've found that Mewtwo beats out projectile dependent characters tho. Not cause of the reflector(tho that helps) but cause Shadow Ball goes straight through many projectiles and hits the user for massive damage and knockback.

 

[the king of murder]

Do command grabs also count as "kill thows"? Because then we have stuff like Lucarios(with aura) and Bowsers side-b.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm confused at people who think Mewtwo has no good match ups. The only match ups that he has a clear disadvantage is very fast aggro. Falcon, Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Fox, and I'm going to include Little Mac cause that match up is very relevant. I've found that Mewtwo beats out projectile dependent characters tho. Not cause of the reflector(tho that helps) but cause Shadow Ball goes straight through many projectiles and hits the user for massive damage and knockback.

People seem to think Mewtwo's frailty cancels out any advantages he may have in any particular matchup.
It's part of that inverse Ganon asterisk I mentioned.

 

[Smog Frog]

Do command grabs also count as "kill thows"? Because then we have stuff like Lucarios(with aura) and Bowsers side-b.

well really what makes a kill throw distinct from other kill moves is that they beat shield, a very strong option in this game. so yes, i feel that killing command grabs are in the kill throw category.

 

[TTTTTsd]

In response to Doc's B-Throw being a kill throw, it sort of is, however I think in terms of raw data it's weaker than Mario's (although this might change because Doc has a damage modifier applied to all of his things at a flat rate, it's weird). I'm convinced it kills slightly later regardless.

In relation to Mewtwo my feelings are mixed. Is he bottom, low, mid? I flip flop between them all consistently. He's a very interesting character for sure and I think the real concrete flaw is how frail he is (pretty obvious and been stated before but I'll chip in regardless). If the dude had Mario weight he'd probably be a lot more threatening than he already is.

 

[HeroMystic]

In response to Doc's B-Throw being a kill throw, it sort of is, however I think in terms of raw data it's weaker than Mario's (although this might change because Doc has a damage modifier applied to all of his things at a flat rate, it's weird). I'm convinced it kills slightly later regardless.

The difference is so negligible it's even.

Mario has slightly higher KBG on his B-throw, but Doc's has higher damage. Potentially, Doc's edges out of Mario once you get to 200%+, but the KBG makes it oh so slightly better at lower damages for Mario. But you should never see a difference in practice.

 

[Teshie U]

keep in mind throws like sonic and toon link have high base knockback, which makes them strong killers at the edge, but truly good kill throws are the rare powerful upthrows like mewtwo and the bthrows with high knockback growth like Ness and Villager.

 

[Antonykun]

Mewtwo is way better than in Melee, but is ultimately one of the worst characters in the game. That does't mean all that much in Smash 4 compared to many other games, but it is what it is.

He plays sort of like Ganondorf, with alternate focus on projectile/reflection and recovery.

I don't know of a single matchup Mewtwo wins.

?

 

[Teshie U]

I thought he might be useful vs Rosalina tbh.

 

[Gunla]

Up-Throw isn't really that reliable of a combo starter past mid percentages so after that period I prefer to just save it for a kill. I like to use D-Throw a lot too since the angle it throws the opponent is pretty good for mixups even if there's nothing guaranteed out of it. Sometimes I also use B-Throw just because it deals the most damage out of Greninja's throws and so on.

I don't keep Up-Throw 100% fresh all the time though, but I do try to keep it as fresh as possible if I can and it works well for the most part.

Going off of this, I tend to use UThrow either before 75% or after 140%/whenever it's going to kill, factoring rage in.

It's the 75-140 zone where the move doesn't really do much other than add a bit of percent because it launches far enough so we can't really follow up, but it won't KO unless terrible DI.

DThrow and BThrow are pretty decent at most percentages, DThrow because of the odd angle, and BThrow is free damage.

FThrow, however, I don't find much use in. It throws at an angle where basically nothing is really guaranteed.

@Diddy Kong regarding Greninja vs Mewtwo:
I think it's likely a slight advantage on Greninja's part. The floatiness of Mewtwo allows for Greninja to get very early KOs (USmash & UThrow in particular) and such; Greninja's got the speed advantage on this matchup as well. There's some earlier posts that sum it up better, but that's my two cents.

 

[Shaya]

Mewtwo vs characters with strong up throws is pretty funny.
Oh, you're at 100%ish.
Oh, I'm at 100%ish.

My name is Marth, your name is Mewtwo.
"You're going to die if I grab you at 110[+5-10]% Mewtwo" [pummels are gud]
"BUT BUT YOU'LL DIE IF I GRAB YOU AT LIKE 109%!"
"well I guess its a dash grab war, supplemented by swords and swords and swords"
*gets the up throw kill first*

Poor Mewtwo.
He's really fun in this game, but he's probably one of the safer characters to pick as low/bottom tier.
Very light weight and floaty just isn't viable in this game unless you have controllable puppets.

( feel for you)

 

[RonNewcomb]

I don't think M2 really loses to sword characters, for example, because it has a lot of ground speed, tricky aerial setups, and enough disjointed range on certain normals to take advantage of holes, but if what you mainly remember are the times Mewtwo gets juggled, or the times Mewtwo dies at a low percent to a rogue F-Smash, then it's going to seem like Mewtwo is at a disadvantage when I don't think it really is.

FWIW I think Mewtwo beats Link. Unlike the other swordsmen Link relies on projectiles a lot, so reflectors put a kink in his major plan. Link's disjoints are also weaker from the sides in air-to-air, since bair and nair have no disjoint and fair's is lesser than Mewtwo's bair. Link would only air approach from vertical directions but since Link doesn't fly well, horizontal air approaches happen more often. On the ground Mewtwo's dtilt and Shadow Ball ensures Link's disjoints don't own the road. So, on-stage, I think the MU is evenish, but if the match gets sloppy Link of course pulls ahead. It's the off-stage game that's the dealbreaker. Mewtwo gimps Link easily, Link can't reply in kind. And Link's best anti-gimping tactic of tossing a boomerang at the ledge he's chasing works against him as well, since Mewtwo can reflect it en-route, giving Link 2 problems instead of one. I don't even see Link's customs improving the MU much if any. Mewtwo can't mess up obviously, but MU ratios presume no appreciable mistakes happen.

Not that having a winning MU against a Hyrule-tier hero means much... not even keeping you out of Hyrule tier yourself.

I can see Toon Link having similar issues, though with Mewtwo having a bit more leeway in messing up. But Toon Link's mobility make messing up a bit more likely, so that's a wash.

On the flip side, I can't see Marth having any problems with Mewtwo. Nothing to reflect, Disable has less range than the sword, and tipper even kills heavies at ridiculous percents.