Character Competitive Impressions

[Teshie U]

what does sol even do aside from damage? gale strike just seems like a very powerful juggle setup and it overpowers other projectiles

 

[ZarroTsu]

SoL is basically like if sheik's needles were balanced with the rest of the cast in mind.

 

[Antonykun]

what does sol even do aside from damage? gale strike just seems like a very powerful juggle setup and it overpowers other projectiles

(Assuming a long ranged way of dealing damage isn't good enough)
Way lower cooldown so if your opponent just jumps over SoL like they would to GS you wont be completely screwed

 

[RonNewcomb]

I believe this is going to be a match up dependent threat, as it can only cover 2 angles, which is horizontal and diagonals. Now, some characters can approach or outzone by other means (like ROB and yoshi) and some can overcome just by plainly outzoning. There will be characters that will have problems with this (Ganon, DK, D3, Ike, heavy characters), but that's what shielding and perfect shielding is for. And hey I heard this quote watching sf4 with zangief and ryu
"The health bar is a resource that the zangief must use well if he can't get in safely."

But Ryu doesn't zip around like Ibuki. What point is there finally closing in on a zoner when they can teleport, jump like a flea, or just fair you from one end of the stage to the other?
I like the earlier suggestion that Sheik's needles need to lose all their hitstun. Fully charged needles can have hitstun on the first 2 needles, so Sheik can still gimp with them if absolutely necessary.

 

[Ikes]

Opinions on Toon Link plz. lol

he's my main and his bomb setups are super sick

he's also super hype due to accidental projectile combos that can lead to really cool followups

recently i landed a bomb on the ground which led into a bomb i had in the air which i followed up with a fair that got the kill

really neat stuff tink can pull off and I want to see more users play him in competitive environments

really he's all about special setups

I use 2211 customs so getting projectile setups is pretty reliable, since i can pretty reliably chain fire arrows into aerial bombs and then into aerials, but it's by no means an easy task

I personally think he's pretty overlooked and underrated as a character. He's got the means to be at least low A+ tier

He's super boring.

I dont see how

other than the fact that bomb spam is pretty damn effective albeit repetitive by nature

but it's actually useful in multiple ways since it practically negates all move staling due to bombs being used so often

 

[Antonykun]

he's my main and his bomb setups are super sick

he's also super hype due to accidental projectile combos that can lead to really cool followups

recently i landed a bomb on the ground which led into a bomb i had in the air which i followed up with a fair that got the kill

really neat stuff tink can pull off and I want to see more users play him in competitive environments

really he's all about special setups

I use 2211 customs so getting projectile setups is pretty reliable, since i can pretty reliably chain fire arrows into aerial bombs and then into aerials, but it's by no means an easy task

I personally think he's pretty overlooked and underrated as a character. He's got the means to be at least low A+ tier



I dont see how

other than the fact that bomb spam is pretty damn effective albeit repetitive by nature

but it's actually useful in multiple ways since it practically negates all move staling due to bombs being used so often

Bomb artows make me want to pick up toon link

 

[Dabuz]

Toonlink is godlike

 

[RonNewcomb]

he's also super hype due to accidental projectile combos that can lead to really cool followups

A Tink that knows what he's doing is a joy to watch -- all those "accidental" item combos. But, it's 10x harder to play Tink effectively than it is to play Sheik or Diddy effectively. I've no idea of his MU spread; it's pretty darn different from adult Link's.

 

[Teshie U]

Toon Link is boring because he CAN just pull bombs and disrespect most of the cast with item tossing out of shield into free combos that do alot of damage and kill pretty comfortably. Unlike diddy, you cant just take the items from him or steal it as he is pulling it out.

And despite the fact that its an explosive, it doesn't hurt him when he throws it at you point blank. So he doesnt even have to space well like he did in brawl.

Fsmash is strong as heck in this game too.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You think so? Beyond Shield I've never felt like a stance wasn't being particularly helpful in some way. Jump gets you back on stage just fine, Speed is Speed, Buster gives a solid damage increase and on-shield hit safety, and Smash seems to kill things just fine.
Now if you mean "do they make up for his garbage frame data" then no you're not wrong about that. Giving him an autocancel somewhere or giving some reduced cooldown would go a long way.

Nair is supposed to fulfill that purpose of his short cooldown aerial, and it does. Shulks slow start-ups make him bad at CQC. His nairs landing lag is low, especially within the context of his reach.


Shulks start-ups make him weak in CQC, so be it. The deal is trying to get sufficient reward on hits. Shield and Smash are both a boost in KO potent relative to your opponent. Shield achieves that by decreasing their Knockback and damage more then it decreases yours, Smash by increasing your knockback more then it increases theirs. In tandem with their disadvantages they're small boosts. Jump, Speed and Buster are the most proportionate but I still say Buster needs more juice because unless its Dec Buster I maintain low time within the form, practicality of Speed undermines Busters damage.

 

[Superbat]

Thx everyone. I'm always confused in why people think he's low tier or something. He's definitely a keeper for me now.
@ Teshie U sounds godlike

 

[Sinister Slush]

I still think Tink beats us in Smash 4 like he did in brawl.
With the changes to bombs, prolly even more so.

 

[Lavani]

Opinions on Toon Link plz. lol

Good and underrated character imo, I always hear "he's bad because he's worse than brawl tink" but who cares, this isn't Brawl. More agile than Link, better Boomerang, bombs combo into kill moves and are a frame 7 OoS option that doesn't hurt him, and bthrow is a really potent kill move off a tether grab that isn't as slow as most (frame 12 standing).

It's hard to say much for him though as I don't use the character or really see much out of him beyond Manzoku in Japan. And I sometimes feel like I overrate him when I look at his frame data and see how poor his startups actually are, though his endlag ranges from decent to great.

I currently see him a bit under the middle of the cast (~25-30) but would like to see more skilled representation for him.

 

[Nu~]

Tink is definitely a great character, but probably won't be making it out of high mid in a vanilla metagame. Beautiful combos and decent nuetral, but a really bad disadvantage state and his game plan is fairly linear unless you play him creatively (like you should be doing imo)


With customs, I honestly have no idea. His options increase heavily, but so do just about everyone else's.

 

[Ikes]

Toon Link is boring because he CAN just pull bombs and disrespect most of the cast with item tossing out of shield into free combos that do alot of damage and kill pretty comfortably. Unlike diddy, you cant just take the items from him or steal it as he is pulling it out.

And despite the fact that its an explosive, it doesn't hurt him when he throws it at you point blank. So he doesnt even have to space well like he did in brawl.

Fsmash is strong as heck in this game too.

too bad fsmash is one of the least safe moves in the game

 

[Lavani]

Tink's fsmash endlag is pretty average for an fsmash, it's Link's fsmash that lags on for years (especially on the second swing)

 

[Nu~]

Tink's fsmash endlag is pretty average for an fsmash, it's Link's fsmash that lags on for years (especially on the second swing)

But that shield pressure tho

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Any thoughts on wario? Using him as a secondary and really loving him so far

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

IMO, my version of his bad matchups:

65:35: [At least nair is a godsend vs Sheik]
60:40
55:45:

The rest are mostly 50:50 or he beats slightly. Out of this list, About 5-6 are relevant in the Metagame currently [Sheik, Rosa, Pac Man, Falcon, Villager, Mega Man is rising] I don't find the Pits very bad. From versing my friend, a very good Pit secondary, I usually win as Luigi. Mostly watch for dair spikes. Fireball canning arrows is very handy. And if you are good enough...you can intercept their Up B with a tornado spike. And if they whiff their side Bs...free up B.

ROB on the other hand, is underrated in dificulty. You CANNOT touch a good ROB as Luigi. Cyclone doesn't clank with laser at all and gyro rarely. Just so tough...


Good Luigi matchups of note:

60:40:
55:45:

Only notably top tiers he beats. Rest he goes even with sans Sheik and Rosalina. Ganondorf is probably Luigi's best matchup at 5:35 customs off imo. Kirby is probably his 2nd best.

In the end of things, I have Luigi as 12th on my tier list, with Mario right under him at 13th.

Luigi stomps Pika so hard Esam is looking specifically for a Luigi counter.

 

[Teshie U]

Tink is definitely a great character, but probably won't be making it out of high mid in a vanilla metagame. Beautiful combos and decent nuetral, but a really bad disadvantage state and his game plan is fairly linear unless you play him creatively (like you should be doing imo)


With customs, I honestly have no idea. His options increase heavily, but so do just about everyone else's.

Whats so bad about his disadvantage? His close range game is a bit slow, but he still has nice disjoints to defend against uncertain follow ups, bombs to help him out of juggles and edgeguards and tether grabbing can be a godsend when you've been ledge trumped.
Only worthwhile custom seems to be fire arrows, but they are VERY useful tbh. He might find it worthwhile to switch out an up special depending on matchups. The dolphin slash one is probably the best.

too bad fsmash is one of the least safe moves in the game

Tink's fsmash endlag is pretty average for an fsmash, it's Link's fsmash that lags on for years (especially on the second swing)

You don't do the 2nd hit unless you have confirmed it will hit. The uncertainty between hit 1 and 2 is what makes it somewhat safe. Thats how its always been.

 

[NegaNixx]

So I picked up Dark Pit to Secondary my Marth? Any opinions on his Match Ups? I love how he plays, very follow up heavy, but it's hard to get a kill at a decent percent without a read and, edge guarding needs to be on point.

 

[Espy Rose]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comi...results-coming-may-23rd.403672/#post-19259282
Results later but here's top 6
Megafox | Fox
Trela | Mii swordfighter
Fliphop | Diddy
Razer | C.falcon/??? (been picking up fox cuz OP, might've used him maybe not?)
Espy | Sonic/??? {maybe little mac)
Samboner | Sheik

There's something to discuss.

I used Pac-Man and Little Mac as well.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Any thoughts on wario? Using him as a secondary and really loving him so far

I'd go bold and say he's top 10. Nobody seems to use him and give him tournament rep outside of @TheReflexWonder (that I know of). His camp game and solid performance against high tiers will continue to push him up the tier list.

Japan has realized this, we as a whole (milk) have not.

IMO, my version of his bad matchups:

65:35: [At least nair is a godsend vs Sheik]
60:40
55:45:

The rest are mostly 50:50 or he beats slightly. Out of this list, About 5-6 are relevant in the Metagame currently [Sheik, Rosa, Pac Man, Falcon, Villager, Mega Man is rising] I don't find the Pits very bad. From versing my friend, a very good Pit secondary, I usually win as Luigi. Mostly watch for dair spikes. Fireball canning arrows is very handy. And if you are good enough...you can intercept their Up B with a tornado spike. And if they whiff their side Bs...free up B.

ROB on the other hand, is underrated in dificulty. You CANNOT touch a good ROB as Luigi. Cyclone doesn't clank with laser at all and gyro rarely. Just so tough...


Good Luigi matchups of note:

60:40:
55:45:

Only notably top tiers he beats. Rest he goes even with sans Sheik and Rosalina. Ganondorf is probably Luigi's best matchup at 5:35 customs off imo. Kirby is probably his 2nd best.

In the end of things, I have Luigi as 12th on my tier list, with Mario right under him at 13th.

Please explain how luigi loses to bowser jr.

 

[Firefoxx]

too bad fsmash is one of the least safe moves in the game

he's my main and his bomb setups are super sick

he's also super hype due to accidental projectile combos that can lead to really cool followups

recently i landed a bomb on the ground which led into a bomb i had in the air which i followed up with a fair that got the kill

really neat stuff tink can pull off and I want to see more users play him in competitive environments

really he's all about special setups

I use 2211 customs so getting projectile setups is pretty reliable, since i can pretty reliably chain fire arrows into aerial bombs and then into aerials, but it's by no means an easy task

I personally think he's pretty overlooked and underrated as a character. He's got the means to be at least low A+ tier



I dont see how

other than the fact that bomb spam is pretty damn effective albeit repetitive by nature

but it's actually useful in multiple ways since it practically negates all move staling due to bombs being used so often

Boring can be great. I think Toon Link is mid of the road at worst. But he asboring is boring and optimal Toon Link will almost always try to slow the game down with bombs (and fire arrows in customs). It's effective as well and Toon Link seems like a really fantastic secondary

I think his low usage rate is mostly due to him being a worse version of his Brawl self and nothing else. Lots of other characters got some interesting changes, like Wario, but he's basically the same.

 

[wedl!!]

i have played literally like three times lol

character is solid, his fair is super meaty and his bombs are actually nuts. he's middle of the pack i feel.

 

[Pazx]

If you guys want to see the best Wii Fit Trainer in the world tune in HERE

starting in a few minutes, bracket is HERE (and is being constantly updated so you can see how far we are).

Characters remaining (some of these have secondaries but meh):

oh the diversity

 

[Ffamran]

So I picked up Dark Pit to Secondary my Marth? Any opinions on his Match Ups? I love how he plays, very follow up heavy, but it's hard to get a kill at a decent percent without a read and, edge guarding needs to be on point.

Not really the place to ask since this thread is more general MU discussion, but people can help out. The Dark Pit and the Pit boards can help. Dark Pit's here: http://smashboards.com/forums/dark-pit.498/, and Pit's here: http://smashboards.com/forums/pit.400/. Just be sure to read the stickied threads and not make a random thread.

Boring can be great. I think Toon Link is mid of the road at worst. But he asboring is boring and optimal Toon Link will almost always try to slow the game down with bombs (and fire arrows in customs). It's effective as well and Toon Link seems like a really fantastic secondary

I think his low usage rate is mostly due to him being a worse version of his Brawl self and nothing else. Lots of other characters got some interesting changes, like Wario, but he's basically the same.

Shen Woo from King of Fighters. What does he do? Punch things and he's considered a very, very powerful character. He's probably the most boring character if you're looking to do flashy things since aside from normals, he just has a chargeable punch move, a reflect/counter, and the usual supers - I don't remember what they're called in KoF. Jecht from Dissidia is also a "boring" character; he smashes stuff with his sword and has few commands other than normals. Simple/practical and effective are these types of characters. Ike is simple and he's effective since all he does is smash stuff with Ragnell; nothing fancy. Toon Link and Link are practical, overwhelm people with projectiles and wreck them if they get too close with their Master Swords. Mega Man can also apply too.

Comparing characters to past games can hurt them since different mechanics change how characters function. Random tripping alone changed Captain Falcon in Brawl and with its removal in SSB4, he's a much different character because he doesn't have to fear random trips going against his rush ins. Is Captain Falcon a worse version of Brawl Captain Falcon or Melee Captain Falcon? Perhaps, but that's comparing different games with different mechanics and different Captain Falcons.

 

[wedl!!]

wait im confused

in top 8? flashbacks to 3ds days where ditto gfs were a thing

https://vine.co/v/eamjzxVAbXQ my new weapon for discussions

 

[Firefoxx]

Shen Woo from King of Fighters. What does he do? Punch things and he's considered a very, very powerful character. He's probably the most boring character if you're looking to do flashy things since aside from normals, he just has a chargeable punch move, a reflect/counter, and the usual supers - I don't remember what they're called in KoF. Jecht from Dissidia is also a "boring" character; he smashes stuff with his sword and has few commands other than normals. Simple/practical and effective are these types of characters. Ike is simple and he's effective since all he does is smash stuff with Ragnell; nothing fancy. Toon Link and Link are practical, overwhelm people with projectiles and wreck them if they get too close with their Master Swords. Mega Man can also apply too.

.

Oh I'm super hypocritical about this, I think Ike is fun. Shen and Jecht are both pretty cool too. I just think the Links are boring. But yeah, Toon Link is pretty good.

 

[Lavani]

Any thoughts on wario? Using him as a secondary and really loving him so far

The more I learn about the character, the better I feel he is. A defensive character that forces approaches with the passive threat of a charging kill move that will erase souls around 50%, a move as silly and versatile as the bike, and a lingering and lagless command grab - among other things - make for a threatening character that gives his opponent incentive to mount an offensive while also having the tools to prevent them from doing so.

I'm not sure what his matchups against the upper echelon of characters look like though. It'd be cool if some Wario mains could shed some light on that (I see you @TheReflexWonder @Spinosaurus)

 

[Blobface]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comi...results-coming-may-23rd.403672/#post-19259282
Results later but here's top 6
Megafox | Fox
Trela | Mii swordfighter
Fliphop | Diddy
Razer | C.falcon/??? (been picking up fox cuz OP, might've used him maybe not?)
Espy | Sonic/??? {maybe little mac)
Samboner | Sheik

There's something to discuss.

Also worth noting: A Samus got 9th. And a Shulk too.

 

[wedl!!]

look at this

 

[webbedspace]

I'm appalled. How dare they give Lightning Falcon Kick that much landing lag.

 

[Pazx]

wait im confused

in top 8? flashbacks to 3ds days where ditto gfs were a thing

https://vine.co/v/eamjzxVAbXQ my new weapon for discussions

Aussieland has 2 decent Mac players in Venks and Earl, the latter who is potentially the best in Melbourne on his day and the former who has done a lot for advancing the meta of the character.

Update: we live

http://www.twitch.tv/newgameplustv

 

[wedl!!]

I'm appalled. How dare they give Lightning Falcon Kick that much landing lag.

yea it needs like at most 2 frames of ending lag otherwise is bottom tier trash

 

[Teshie U]

Also worth noting: A Samus got 9th. And a Shulk too.

Take that with a grain of salt. Even though the region's best players showed up, it was still a convention tournament with ALOT of randoms and a ruleset most of you would think is laughable.

Still, the character spread is impressive. Diddy is the only character repeating in top 12.

 

[webbedspace]

Take that with a grain of salt. Even though the region's best players showed up, it was still a convention tournament with ALOT of randoms and a ruleset most of you would think is laughable.

Most people have respect for 3-stock proponents, and people who think having PS2 legal is "laughable" are just not being tolerant of valid rulesets they personally disagree with.

Update: we live

http://www.twitch.tv/newgameplustv

Those reverse bowling ball get-up reads in Loser's Quarters... *tears up*

 

[thehard]

Damn that Little Mac was on point.

 

[RonNewcomb]

That Pit vs WFT was nuts

 

[Ikes]

Tink's fsmash endlag is pretty average for an fsmash, it's Link's fsmash that lags on for years (especially on the second swing)

tink's fsmash does no shield damage and the knockback to shields is incredibly low, so it can only ever be used safely if you know your enemy isn't going to/isnt able to shield it, which is pretty uncommon, especially given that at much higher percents the second hit can often whiff due to the first hit not having some form of set knockback (like really, why did they do this)

Any thoughts on wario? Using him as a secondary and really loving him so far

he's good, currently my second main and he's good

i like him a lot

that's all I can really say lmao