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Character Competitive Impressions

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Antonykun

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:4link: is only above low tier to either :4link: mains or people who think for glory is an accurate representation of tourney play
to this day I will not get why Link lost his jab cancel
 

Lavani

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:4link: is only above low tier to either :4link: mains or people who think for glory is an accurate representation of tourney play
Remember that at release we had a Link with a much faster jab, the ability to cancel landing lag with bomb throws, and the ability to attack with a bomb in hand. I'd put him in the bottom rungs of the cast without a second thought now, but in the early days things were looking good for Link.
 

NegaNixx

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Can I point out how good the original 12 are in this game? I've seen literally all of them described as high tier or above except Samus and Kirby. Being more realistic, 7 of them (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Pikachu, Falcon, Ness, Fox) are commonly accepted potential top tiers. I think it's great that so many of the OGs are so good for once.
Even Kirby has been described as Anti Meta with the tools to beat some top tiers, though not hang with them. It is cool though.
 

Radical Larry

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to this day I will not get why Link lost his jab cancel
Because Link would have potentially take Top Tier spots. However, this isn't much of a hindrance, and Link is still a solid and viable character.

Remember that at release we had a Link with a much faster jab, the ability to cancel landing lag with bomb throws, and the ability to attack with a bomb in hand. I'd put him in the bottom rungs of the cast without a second thought now, but in the early days things were looking good for Link.
Even so, Link is still a solid character. He's got the third most powerful dash attack (behind King Dedede and Ganondorf), has great aerial mobility and attacks, very powerful attacks and some good combo and string game. As well, he also provides a very powerful Forward Smash, which is one of the strongest in the game, and his D-Smash is very dangerous to roll into due to its semi-spike properties. He's also got one of the more dangerous U-Airs, mainly due to how it will always hit air dodging opponents (thanks to its lingering hitboxes) and deals high damage and knockback.

He's got good things to him, and this is the tip of the iceberg. However, if I were to give him his worst evaluation, he'd be in the upper middle tier. There's still so much that's good about him that people have yet to realize.
 

Ffamran

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to this day I will not get why Link lost his jab cancel
That's one thing out of 4 of Falco's; Dash Attack, Falco Phantasm's FUBAR'd hitbox, a slower than Melee grab, and in a way, Dair which could have kept its frame 5 hitbox as just a weird get off me hit, a frame 14 or 16 spike, and the rest as a late hitbox. The rest of Link's kit is still pretty strong and disjointed - stupid Dair horizontal hitbox. Nobody can get a perfect balance and man, Link's jab cancel was pretty stupidly handled in my opinion. Increasing that IASA that much from 19 to 27? Look, it could have increased to 23 instead of making it almost half a second. Does the game still tell you that Link can jab to other things? Yeah, it's true, but it's also a lie since it's like jab to Up Smash with Ganondorf. Fox's IASA for jab is 17? which could have been upped a frame or two if it was that bad, but nope, it's left as is while Link's was increased by 8 frames. Oh, 8 frames, that's not bad. Fox's Up Smash is frame 8 and it's fast, but laggy. It should have been enough frames where Link couldn't "infinite" which you could DI or SDI out of, but it shouldn't have been enough frames where he can't even get decent stuff out it.

Anyway, no swordsman in this game boasts the short landing lag of his Nair and Bair which makes his disadvantage that much safer even compared Shulk's massive range and ability to alter his air speed and durability at will. No swordsman barring Toon Link also controls the stage that well as Link. Link might not be a good character, but damn, if this is a bad character in Smash, then I want to know what a great character is... Oh, wait, we already seen them with characters like Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, Captain Falcon, Fox, Mega Man, Rosalina, Mario, Luigi, and more.
 

Nobie

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I honestly wonder if Falco's blaster is designed to be one of those dreaded "FFA moves," something you pull out when everyone else is distracted to get some free damage in, or even to steal a kill in a time game.

Also, I'm no Falco expert by any means but he seems to really, really need platforms to thrive. With incredible fall speed and serious ups, having lots of platforms to navigate the stage and to take advantage of landing lag looks like it's pretty important with Falco, but I'd need someone who actually plays Falco to tell me if I'm on the right track.
 

Ulevo

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Because Link would have potentially take Top Tier spots. However, this isn't much of a hindrance, and Link is still a solid and viable character.



Even so, Link is still a solid character. He's got the third most powerful dash attack (behind King Dedede and Ganondorf), has great aerial mobility and attacks, very powerful attacks and some good combo and string game. As well, he also provides a very powerful Forward Smash, which is one of the strongest in the game, and his D-Smash is very dangerous to roll into due to its semi-spike properties. He's also got one of the more dangerous U-Airs, mainly due to how it will always hit air dodging opponents (thanks to its lingering hitboxes) and deals high damage and knockback.

He's got good things to him, and this is the tip of the iceberg. However, if I were to give him his worst evaluation, he'd be in the upper middle tier. There's still so much that's good about him that people have yet to realize.
You think Link would be top tier if he had his jab cancel? He would not have even been high had he had the luxury of keeping that crutch.

Make no mistake, Link is not good. Having one or two pieces of wood does not make a house anymore than having one or two good qualities makes a viable character.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Having one or two pieces of wood does not make a house anymore than having one or two good qualities makes a viable character.
Hey, it worked for Pokémon Trainer... ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
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TriTails

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I honestly wonder if Falco's blaster is designed to be one of those dreaded "FFA moves," something you pull out when everyone else is distracted to get some free damage in, or even to steal a kill in a time game.
Falco's blaster is useful for stealing jumps, as well as getting some damage when you throw people off-stage... but that's about it. A shot that deals 3% takes a freaking second to come out isn't good at almost any situations. Sure, it may be useful as a good flinching move, but you can barely get anything about it. Reflector does a better job for most part.
 

Radical Larry

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You think Link would be top tier if he had his jab cancel? He would not have even been high had he had the luxury of keeping that crutch.

Make no mistake, Link is not good. Having one or two pieces of wood does not make a house anymore than having one or two good qualities makes a viable character.
Well, you forget, if you give Link the Meteor Bombs, he becomes far better than one thinks.
If you give him the Quickfire Bow, he becomes even better.
If you give him the Boomerang, same thing happens.

Link is a character that you apparently don't know much about; he has some very strong attributes and while yes, the patches do cripple him in a couple areas that are insignificant (mainly because they are minor bugs, not techs). Link still has one of the strongest projectile games, and with the patches his D-Throw set ups have gotten a lot better, as he can now use F-Tilt out of D-Throw, his U-Throw can link up into a U-Tilt with a good read, his Quickfire Bow is extremely quick upon charging and he has a more powerful Spin Attack.

Link's not necessarily a bad character; you just have to take the time and effort into learning a complicated character like him. You need to learn on how to use him right and how to abuse all of his true techs, his juggling prowess, and his power. Link is still very solid, even without the minor bugs.

(Why I call them bugs is due to the fact that these things weren't meant to be in the game, and were meant to be patched out or taken out upon release, but never were, bar Link's infinite jab lock.)
 

HeavyLobster

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Link's not a bad character, as no character in this game is really bad. He's not particularly good though, and has a few holes in his game that hold him back. There's not really enough for him to differentiate himself from the mediocre muddle that exists on the lower end of the tier list, where he's good enough for skilled players to win in locals, but at larger tourneys Links just get passed by better characters with more abusable tools. He's not helpless by any means, but when the high tier mains are just as good as you are their superior tools will generally win out.
 

Ikes

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Remember that at release we had a Link with a much faster jab, the ability to cancel landing lag with bomb throws, and the ability to attack with a bomb in hand. I'd put him in the bottom rungs of the cast without a second thought now, but in the early days things were looking good for Link.
doesnt TL still have all of these except the last one?
 

Radical Larry

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Link's not a bad character, as no character in this game is really bad. He's not particularly good though, and has a few holes in his game that hold him back. There's not really enough for him to differentiate himself from the mediocre muddle that exists on the lower end of the tier list, where he's good enough for skilled players to win in locals, but at larger tourneys Links just get passed by better characters with more abusable tools. He's not helpless by any means, but when the high tier mains are just as good as you are their superior tools will generally win out.
Now, Link does have those few holes, but he is still quite versatile in his own right. He might not be as good as people want to believe he's be, but he's an overall versatile character who belongs in middle to low-high tier territory.
 
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|RK|

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Actually, who are all of the "anti-meta" characters?

We have :4kirby:, because while generally expected to be mid/low-mid tier, he does pretty damn well against some of the best characters in the game.

We also have :4ganondorf:, because despite obvious weaknesses, many of his matchups need an asterisk. He just does so much off of reads that it's impossible to count him out regardless of percentage.

These are characters that, while technically non-viable (many people believe that a secondary is required to play seriously), are still valuable to practice for reasons outside of "I like them and I'm just here for fun." So, who else do we have?
 
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webbedspace

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Does every single top-tier (your definition of who this comprises) soundly beat Little Mac? You can possibly think of him as a "worse Ganondorf".
 

Kofu

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Does every single top-tier (your definition of who this comprises) soundly beat Little Mac? You can possibly think of him as a "worse Ganondorf".
Uhh no. Three BIG differences between Ganondorf and Little Mac:
1. LM has the third fastest dash in the game. Ganon has the third slowest.
2. Little Mac's attacks are fast, Ganon's are generally not. Related to this Mac has far more reliable tools to break out of strings than Ganon (Wizkick needs to be respected though).
3. Little Mac has safe (or essentially safe) buttons, Ganon does not.

Little Mac completely outstrips Ganon in footsies and is more likely to be able to capitalize off of a mistake. Ganon just generally gets more reward off of said capitalization. That said, Ganon's moveset being overall more balanced helps him considerably.
 

CyberHyperPhoenix

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Uhh no. Three BIG differences between Ganondorf and Little Mac:
1. LM has the third fastest dash in the game. Ganon has the third slowest.
2. Little Mac's attacks are fast, Ganon's are generally not. Related to this Mac has far more reliable tools to break out of strings than Ganon (Wizkick needs to be respected though).
3. Little Mac has safe (or essentially safe) buttons, Ganon does not.

Little Mac completely outstrips Ganon in footsies and is more likely to be able to capitalize off of a mistake. Ganon just generally gets more reward off of said capitalization. That said, Ganon's moveset being overall more balanced helps him considerably.
Safe buttons?

As in, moves safe on shield right?
 

Luco

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Although Jiggs does have very nice match ups against Ness. I think Jiggs might be a counter to Ness by 55:45. This is thanks in part to Jigglypuff's light nature and capability to escape Ness' combos. One must be wary, however, that Ness can still easily KO Jiggs, but not as reliably as he can with other characters. Throwing out PK Fire is a bold move, often resulting in Jiggs punishing you with an N-Air, F-Air or D-Air as a result.
Your evaluations are getting slightly better (PK Fire for instance, is very unsafe in this MU, not least because Jiggs can DI out of it like nobody's business and proceed to punish us for even thinking about a followup but also because she can jump right over it or shield and DA even with her poor ground speed), but Jiggs doesn't beat Ness. She's annoying for us, don't get me wrong, but we can challenge her air game really well, and we kill her at 108% with Bthrow from centre stage FD without any rage at all (86% with full rage). Even when we're not killing with Bthrow, we'll be killing at similar percents with Bair or Uair, and if nothing else Nair like 40% later.

Jiggs can edge-guard us quite well and if she were a mid-weight the MU would probably be quite close, but we still have combo followups and kill options where she can't contend.

I could be incorrect about the air game but I'm pretty sure our Fair beats out everything of hers except possibly a reasonably well-timed Bair.
 

Kofu

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Really?

I've heard sooo many conflicting things.

Some say Ftilit and Dtilt are safe, while others say they aren't >_>
As far as I know they're not absolutely safe but not a lot can challenge them.

I think you're forgetting Ganon's usmash.
True, though it's a little bit harder to go up to someone's shield as Ganon and USmash than to approach as Little Mac and DTilt/FTilt.
 

Luco

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Can I point out how good the original 12 are in this game? I've seen literally all of them described as high tier or above except Samus and Kirby. Being more realistic, 7 of them (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Pikachu, Falcon, Ness, Fox) are commonly accepted potential top tiers. I think it's great that so many of the OGs are so good for once.
Oh by the way, I remember a video someone made where they photoshopped Ness, Luigi and Bowser on to the faces of the guys in the risen to the top video and it was great. :3

But it's even better because they've had a history of being quite low tier, especially in Brawl where like, the only truly viable character was like, Pikachu haha.
 
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Minordeth

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Link getting the nerf stick was depressing. The ability to just jab cancel into any smash is pretty valuable, even if he moves like a rock. He still has a solid Nair. multi-hit foward air that is relatively safe on hit, and good projectiles. Plus, his F-tilt is a great spacing tool. Pre-patch, I could have seen him as a hidden beast with a lot to explore, but post-patch, he's going to be hanging out towards the bottom half.
 

TriTails

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Little Mac is certainly stronger on the ground than Ganon. But his air game is... Little Mac lol. Ganon's air game is not to be messed with. He has surprisingly good aerials that can ALL kill (Even N-air). Ganon also has much better edgeguarding and gets much more out of reads. However, Little Mac is basically a weaker (As opposed to MUCH weaker for most of the cast) Ganon, but is much, much faster and has higher attack speed on the ground, but even that's a stretch.

Comparing those two is actually quite silly. Little Mac has no similiar comparison to ANYBODY due to how polarized he is. Ganon is more smiliar to Luigi IMO. Both has brutal punishes, moves slowly (Not so much on Luigi), can get a mountain of percents out of a few reads, and both are bait-and-punish characters.

Doesn't mean Luigi is the BEST comparison for Ganon though.

And to top tiers beat LM, I heard Fox lose to the little boxer, but can't say for sure. And if you count in high tiers, Luigi loses to him too (But frankly, I have no problems with him. Might lean to even, but meh).

So with Link most likely be percieved as a character on the lower half of tier lists... Hyurle tier confirmed again XD?

Nah. Kidding. Ganon's quite good in this game (Even though the top tiers basically poops on him), and will most likely end up in low tier... Hyurle tier was when Link, Zelda, and Ganon were like bottom tiers right?
 

webbedspace

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Another topic: how do the projectile/zoning characters (Duck Hunt, Custom Toon Link, Mii Gunner, Custom Samus) stack up against each other, and against the top tiers? (Excluding the "____ Man" characters because they've been discussed recently and/or more often).
 
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