Character Competitive Impressions

[DunnoBro]

Some do not agree

and back and forth "'Nu uh!' 'Uh huh!'" 's are not gonna do it. Again these were big influential advocates for customs pre-patch. Youll need to know the problem customs and have a substantial response that amounts to more then "yes they are" when its suggested they arent balanced.

Agreeing or not with a fact is irrelevant. Villager is only proving a problem recently (and not even really proving a balance issue more than jank issue considering results)

Unfortunately, player perception is and should be only considered by the powers at be in charge of balancing the game when accompanied with results and evidence.

And regardless of the context, guilt by association is a wildly ignorant way of thinking.

If Luigi can guarantee throw to KO, why isnt he in everyone's top 3? Im pretty sure hes the only character that can do that now at a reasonable percent except for like Ness, and he also gets a ton of damage from throws as well.

I'd place luigi top 3 now, but I have a bias of having Boss in my region.

 

[Cassio]

Fair or not player perception is large part to how rulesets are decided. If youre going to wait purely for results and objective explanation I wouldnt bet against customs fading out by the end of summer.

 

[thehard]

Gee, maybe if we played with customs on from the start Nintendo would have enough data on the more dubiously balanced ones to tweak them properly! Then everyone would be happy.

I hate the misconception that customs were introduced to "stop" Diddy or the other top tiers by the way. Them being put in line doesn't mean we throw out all custom moves now.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Fair or not player perception is large part to how rulesets are decided.

And this is something we're trying very hard to fix.

 

[DunnoBro]

Fair or not player perception is large part to how rulesets are decided. If youre going to wait purely for results and objective explanation I wouldnt bet against customs disappearing by the end of summer.

It is a variable, as I stated it should be. Enough players getting together and deciding "This is unhealthy, we don't like this" should and would likely result in things getting fixed. (along with actual observations and explanations as to why.)

But it isn't and shouldn't be the driving force. Especially from such an infantile and shallow meta to draw data from.

Gee, maybe if we played with customs on from the start Nintendo would have enough data on the more dubiously balanced ones to tweak them properly! Then everyone would be happy.

I hate the misconception that customs were introduced to "stop" Diddy or the other top tiers by the way. Them being put in line doesn't mean we throw out all custom moves now.

For the record sheik is pretty absurd with customs on now. ChuDat already proved Pisces was actually extremely potent on her, granting her a very powerful kill move.

The main downside was she had no real set-ups into it... It was just a potent mid-range punish.

But that new weaker bair trajectory sets up perfectly at the percents it starts killing at.

RAwR baby.

And diddy also seems to combo/frame trap into rocketbarrel attack (killing upb) better now.

 

[Flamecircle]

Has custom stall villager even made waves recently? I can't even tell. I only saw it when ADHD did it and I haven't heard of it since.

 

[Ffamran]

Has custom stall villager even made waves recently? I can't even tell. I only saw it when ADHD did it and I haven't heard of it since.

Logic tried using customs Villager in the recent S@X, but his Villager seems like a tertiary character compared to his Olimar/Alph and Diddy. Average Joe just waited for him to make approaches or commit and punished or used Kong Cyclone's super armor to get in.

 

[Cassio]

Can we please talk about Luigi? Can someone explain where he falls short from being top 3?

 

[Ffamran]

Can we please talk about Luigi? Can someone explain where he falls short from being top 3?

The usual poor traction, poor air speed, gimpable recovery, and maybe he's reliant on grabs for damage. I'm not really sure, but they're attributes that people mention against Luigi.

 

[Flamecircle]

Logic tried using customs Villager in the recent S@X, but his Villager seems like a tertiary character compared to his Olimar/Alph and Diddy. Average Joe just waited for him to make approaches or commit and punished or used Kong Cyclone's super armor to get in.

He also wasn't using it to ledge camp much.

 

[Shaya]

Customs on and off result in a different game.
There will be a preference one way or another by individuals.

People are ultimately looking at what they perceive to be more balanced. That's subjective up the wahzoo but I think one way to think about it is non-polarizing characters. Obviously we won't achieve perfect balance where a clear top caste ceases to exist in either choice, ever.
But what were most people's convictions about the way the vanilla game was played? Diddy Kong. Other top tiers as well. This has undoubtedly been shifted.
But what about issues people have with customs? For the most part uncharged.

Evo is still going on ahead, and heck, we're going to have Lucas and potentially another patch to come with it. But with current Saku-wry implications, I think it's fair to expect that a lot of peoples stance on customs are going to start to turn away from them; with Lucas + Evo likely being definitive. It hurts customs chances a lot when any issues being raised by them gets immediately touted by (prove me wrong, even the most respectable arguers have done this) "BUT DIDDY STILL DA BESS IN THE GAME HENCE ITS OKAY".

My convoluted analogy to that argument is, make 25 characters better, but bring back Brawl Dedede's down throw and place it on 1/5th of them. No one wants Dedede ruining Donkey Kong's life for another game. Despite how good and fair the other 20 odd character changes were, people are not going to enjoy playing the game with 5 more problems.

I'll repeat a common notion, that being extreme on either side of the spectrum was never going to work out for at least one side, if not both. Those who were neutral-ish positioned or undecided now may have a significant perspective changer with implications of less balance/developer support for customs, something no matter what will always be status quo setting. People really wanting to keep customs in the game at this stage are going to have to start making concessions. Or in the end we're all going to lose.

 

[DunnoBro]

Has custom stall villager even made waves recently? I can't even tell. I only saw it when ADHD did it and I haven't heard of it since.

There were two at the Xanadu monthly.

Well, only one "stall villager" really. Cree is a default villager who mostly only used trip sapling. He got pretty far but didn't ledgestall or time anyone out.

The ledgestall villager placed lower than him.

 

[Ulevo]

At this point, I do not believe anything should be decided with customs until Lucas's patch. Yes, no changes were done to the current customs moves with the Mewtwo patch, however the concern to these moves has only become recent. I am led to believe that if the balance team is observing the community for data, which they most likely are, they didn't have enough time to make the adjustments necessary.

If we wait until EVO, which will host customs, it will give the team time to observe customs at a high stakes tournament, and provide some sizeable data. If a balance patch is to hit, it will likely come with the Lucas patch. If at this point nothing happens with custom moves, and we still perceive them to be an issue, then something can be done about it then.

Until that point I see no reason in discussing legalities.

 

[thehard]

Remember this? http://smash.menu/customs.html

We could use another roundtable discussion post-Patch. Last time I think Thinkaman, AA, Oracle, and KirbyKid were there, but getting some anti-custom community members would be nice.

We need more open dialogue with TOs.

 

[Ffamran]

On another note: Mewtwo stuff.

Mewtwo is a god of teleport cancel and stage movement... I love this character so much lol.

 

[BSP]

In general, has anyone experimented with how Mario's High Pressure and default FLUDD interact with Kong Cyclone? If they can push DK during it, it could prove fatal.

 

[Yikarur]

Diddy and Sheik are still Top2. But the gap got smaller.

 

[Terotrous]

The discussion on whether the game is more balanced with or without customs is already happening on facebook. Its probably time to have that discussion here as well. Two primary arguments:
1) The game and its balance patches arent balanced (or minimally balanced) around customs, as seems to be the case on the latest update
2) There seems to be no desire to partially ban certain customs, so given the choice between all customs and no customs those in favor of partial bans prefer no customs

We're also having a discussion on this in the "Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion" if anyone else wants to participate. I feel it's a better fit for that thread than this one.


Anyway, on to my thoughts about M2. I played a lot of him last night. First of all, dude hits HARD. His USmash is almost comically powerful, consistently killing around 90%, god forbid if he has significant rage. I killed a Peach at like 70% last night when I was at 150%. UThrow, FSmash, DSmash, Fair, Shadow Ball, and all also solid kill options. His punish game is almost Ganondorf status. Do not airdodge carelessly against this guy or you will pay.

Mewtwo's neutral game is also generally decent. He has decent pokes, his throw is terrifying, he has a solid command grab / reflector, and Shadow Ball murders shields so it can force approaches. His Jab 1 is a very scary attack, as those jab cancels are hellishly legit. Jab into grab is legitimate murder considering the potency of his throws.

Where Mewtwo falters is that his defense is completely awful, maybe the worst in the game. Besides being big and light, he also has utterly godawful OOS options, with Nair and Grab being the only two viable ones and they're both slow. His one saving grace is that Teleport is a fantastic move in disadvantage, but with M2's weight you really can't afford to be put into disadvantage all that often in the first place. I feel like he is forced to rely on spotdodge very heavily, as he has great punishes after a successful spotdodge, but you'd better have good reads or you're going to get rekt.

Matchup-wise, his matchups against fast, annoying characters like Pika and Fox seem completely terrible. He just doesn't seem to have any good answers to their pressure that doesn't involve taking big risks, and they're rarely susceptible to big punishes. He can put on the damage if he gets his momentum going, but generally winning the damage race seems very hard. Matchups against more average speed characters and zoners seem okay, confusion shuts down a lot of zoning and he can slug it out with most characters due to his high damage output and kill power.

Overall I suspect he's likely mid or upper mid. Players with very good reads could be terrifying with him, much like Ganondorf. Actually, I feel that in a lot of ways he's basically like a floatier Ganon who trades survivability for a projectile.

 

[Sinister Slush]

On another note: Mewtwo stuff.

So like is there something wrong with Mewtwo's UpB.
I noticed yesterday when I was toying with him that smashville's slant actually pushed Mewtwo away from the ledge and I died.

Made like a hook shape despite facing the ledge, not back turned like in this video but either way, back turned or not he should've grabbed the ledge still.

 

[WingedKnight]

So like is there something wrong with Mewtwo's UpB.
I noticed yesterday when I was toying with him that smashville's slant actually pushed Mewtwo away from the ledge and I died.

Made like a hook shape despite facing the ledge, not back turned like in this video but either way, back turned or not he should've grabbed the ledge still.

Apparently Mewtwo can walljump/bounce off mid-Teleport. That sounds like what might've happened to you.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Apparently Mewtwo can walljump mid-Teleport.

Say what now.

 

[Luco]

The biggest issue I have right now with Mewtwo is his standing grab and pivot grab range are awful. I think his running grab is marginally better but he still has issues landing the grab generally sometimes. Probably most notable if he's trying to punish someone for a whiffed attack. Usually he just... Misses, of if he's close enough to grab then they can already react out of whatever they did.

 

[Waroh]

So like is there something wrong with Mewtwo's UpB.
I noticed yesterday when I was toying with him that smashville's slant actually pushed Mewtwo away from the ledge and I died.

It seems Mewtwo's teleport was highly based off of Zelda's, so it comes with the same problems. Teleporting at certain parts of stages the wrong way will send you off in an undesired direction. As a visual example... this part of Omega Boxing Ring will usually result in sending you outward if you teleport straight up to the ledge from the wall.

This may be what happened to you.

 

[TheZyzyva]

So playing Mewtwo yesterday I found a lot of Lvl 9s were able to aerial me after a confusion. Im not a great player but it was fairly consistant. There were a couple of times even that I felt like there was nothing I could do to stop it. Maybe better players wont have this issue but it seems like it could be a skill barrier preventing mid-level players from much success.

Another thing I found, his fsmash has some freaking crazy range on it! Would love to see a gif of it hitting at max distance cause it felt pretty absurd to me. (He shoots out a laser it appears a la force palm, which seems to still be a hitbox)

 

[Terotrous]

So playing Mewtwo yesterday I found a lot of Lvl 9s were able to aerial me after a confusion. Im not a great player but it was fairly consistant. There were a couple of times even that I felt like there was nothing I could do to stop it. Maybe better players wont have this issue but it seems like it could be a skill barrier preventing mid-level players from much success.

I found that UTilt was a pretty consistent follow-up after confusion, and some characters may not be able to get out of it. But yeah, Confusion isn't so much about guaranteed damage as a chance at a follow-up. As with all mixups, if you go in for a grab or something and they stick out a button, you'll get hit. You can, however, opt to block and try to punish them for sticking out a button.

 

[Yonder]

The usual poor traction, poor air speed, gimpable recovery, and maybe he's reliant on grabs for damage. I'm not really sure, but they're attributes that people mention against Luigi.

Also Luigi doesn't do so hot against Villager [people say Mega Man which isn't great but at least fireballs clank most stuff out unlike villager]...imagine Luigi vs a customs villager...no chance.

 

[Thinkaman]

So playing Mewtwo yesterday I found a lot of Lvl 9s were able to aerial me after a confusion. Im not a great player but it was fairly consistant. There were a couple of times even that I felt like there was nothing I could do to stop it. Maybe better players wont have this issue but it seems like it could be a skill barrier preventing mid-level players from much success.

Mewtwo can powershield every aerial in the game out of Confusion, including Sheik fair--the most dangerous one in this context.

All aerials except Sheik fair will fail to AC if used out of Confusion.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So playing Mewtwo yesterday I found a lot of Lvl 9s were able to aerial me after a confusion. Im not a great player but it was fairly consistant. There were a couple of times even that I felt like there was nothing I could do to stop it. Maybe better players wont have this issue but it seems like it could be a skill barrier preventing mid-level players from much success.

Another thing I found, his fsmash has some freaking crazy range on it! Would love to see a gif of it hitting at max distance cause it felt pretty absurd to me. (He shoots out a laser it appears a la force palm, which seems to still be a hitbox)

Confusion is -5 on hit. I think Mewtwo can shield before any possible retaliation, although it's a close thing for characters like Sheik.

'd

 

[Dabuz]

So, day 2 170+ games of mewtwo thoughts. He's...alright. Basically his offensive game is crazy with lots of high reward moves, 50-50 setups, some weird frame traps, disgusting off stage and ledge play, a godlike projectile and anti projectile game, plenty of mobility options, good range, and as it will constantly be mentioned, disgustingly strong throws.

However he just can't deal with pressure well. Part of this is due to having poor OoS options, but even more problematic is piss poor startup on most of his moves and all his tail attacks extending his hurtbox significantly. He's also susceptible to getting stuck in devastating strings due to floatiness, luckily teleport and side-B give him options to escape juggles. He doesn't have a safe pressure option, just very threatening moves. The main nail in the coffin however is just his ultra lightweight status. He seems meant to take risks but he can't afford to guess wrong that often, the same exact thing that really keeps G&W and Jigglypuff from being great characters.

I'm really enjoying this character though (170 games is more than I have with 80% of the cast period including 3ds version) and will almost definitely have him as a pocket character but as of now he has some borderline unwinnable MUs (Fox...*shivers*)



Also, regarding confusion, the best option after getting hit by it is always to jump before mewtwo can actually do anything. Mewtwo can always shield to avoid aerials (thought uptilt is also a safe but low reward way to cover a lot of options including this), and if landed in the air, upair is almost a surefire way to land a followup.

 

[TheZyzyva]

I found that UTilt was a pretty consistent follow-up after confusion, and some characters may not be able to get out of it. But yeah, Confusion isn't so much about guaranteed damage as a chance at a follow-up. As with all mixups, if you go in for a grab or something and they stick out a button, you'll get hit. You can, however, opt to block and try to punish them for sticking out a button.

Ah thanks for the advice!
Overall I think Mewtwo is going to find himself too slow to make a real impact on the meta. Hes powerful sure, but with so many speedsters and jugglers in the top-tiers, I dont think hed be high tier even if he was heavier. (Second lightest are you freaking kidding me? How is a 12 year old boy heavier than him?!) As is hes going to die before he can get much done, especially in a 2-stock meta.
His slow starting nair is whats really going to do him in. He cannot afford to be put into disadvantage at all. Shiek, fox, and the capt are all going to have a field day with him.
That said, his Ness-like double jump and teleport give him a pretty absurd recovery. Just wish he wasnt so easy to knock out completely.

Edit: Hey Dabuz, would you say his weight is the only factor holding him back significantly? Or even if he was heavier would he still not be a great solo main?

 

[Balgorxz]

Since we know most of the changes by now I'll predict how the tier list will look by the end of this patch, so probably until my bae lucas comes back.
I really hope when I come back I have some of these correct
Meta Tier:
Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:

Sakurai please Tier: The Rest

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, all things concerned besides my voicing on his good options, Mewtwo has very evident flaws as well. I think he's like, a good character, but nothing more or nothing less. Not great, but...okay, I suppose. He could've been a lot worse, I think. He could be like the character I play as a main and not a secondary, although I'm glad I'm picking Mewtwo up, haha.

(At least they buffed Doc Tornado's endlag though, less ending lag on Down-B is a nice buff!)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

My convoluted analogy to that argument is, make 25 characters better, but bring back Brawl Dedede's down throw and place it on 1/5th of them. No one wants Dedede ruining Donkey Kong's life for another game. Despite how good and fair the other 20 odd character changes were, people are not going to enjoy playing the game with 5 more problems.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison at all...

At this point, I do not believe anything should be decided with customs until Lucas's patch. Yes, no changes were done to the current customs moves

This is not true. Order tackle glitch is gone, and at least one Zelda DownB custom was changed. There may be more, there just hasn't been too many people looking at them.

 

[Dabuz]

Edit: Hey Dabuz, would you say his weight is the only factor holding him back significantly? Or even if he was heavier would he still not be a great solo main?

Make him Mario's weight and he would be really good, not top tier, but approx. where people tend to put Olimar. Solo-main status depends entirely on if he has an awful MUs with popular characters.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm really enjoying this character though (170 games is more than I have with 80% of the cast period including 3ds version) and will almost definitely have him as a pocket character but as of now he has some borderline unwinnable MUs (Fox...*shivers*)

Glad to see the fact that I felt like I just couldn't do anything against Fox wasn't just me.

 

[Dabuz]

Order tackle pikmin glitch is actually gone?! ;-;

 

[TTTTTsd]

Make him Mario's weight and he would be really good, not top tier, but approx. where people tend to put Olimar. Solo-main status depends entirely on if he has an awful MUs with popular characters.

So I guess he sort of rounds himself out in the middle of the cast then? One of those pocket/possible chars in certain MUs but others is just no go? I suppose that makes sense. I guess Mewtwo even being remotely good is an improvement from his last outing, I will say that.

I will say my impressions of him are that he's more viable than the character I play most, IMO. That much is certain (to me anyways)

 

[Dabuz]

Of course, I could be completely wrong. It's not even been 2 full days with him being out.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Make him Mario's weight and he would be really good, not top tier, but approx. where people tend to put Olimar. Solo-main status depends entirely on if he has an awful MUs with popular characters.

Hopefully not to many Diddys move to Fox then!
Are there many other obviously bad MUs for him? As far as you can tell at this point?

Of course, I could be completely wrong. It's not even been 2 full days with him being out.

No way we are holding you to this regardless. Prepare for months of "Dabuz said X about Mewtwo"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Glad to see the fact that I felt like I just couldn't do anything against Fox wasn't just me.

About 4 or 5 people have already mentioned in this thread that Fox is a likely hard-counter to Mewtwo. It's definitely not just you lol

Edit: dabuz do you still think Peach is that good? I'm not seeing it.