Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Yay, something easier to do than Falco's Fire Slide... So, Mewtwo's vengeance, eh? Also, it's from the Zelda Social aka the sassy and classy other-Character Competitive Impressions thread.

What do you think girls. Useful or na? If anything It's flashy

 

[Thinkaman]

Humor me for a moment. (And don't follow my lead--this is silly nonsense and we don't need two dozen of these lists.)

Speculative Day 1 1.0.6 Tier List

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level:






1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:






(Note: In both lists, I now only have 5 tiers instead of 7. The top-most and bottom-most tiers were eliminated. Future subdivision of the existing tiers may take place, but for now I'm leaving the structure parallel to the previous status quo for reference/context.)

I do this to look foolish later, so you don't have to.

(Edit: My internal thought process on reviewing the no customs list was "Wait, ZSS at #1? Really? Uh, hmm. I guess that's right? Huh.")

 

[Djent]

I agree with Thinkaman's top picks, though less so as I go down the list. Though the latter part is natural as lower-tiered characters are less understood (and so ranking variance should be higher).

/ will dominate tournaments with customs off.
Customs on will be dominated by /// in some order.

 

[thehard]

Someone posted this data in the patch thread:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...wju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=1937605207

Is there one of these for every character?

 

[Antonykun]

While i find the D-tilt buff dubious in effectiveness the N-air buff for Swordfighter is really good as it makes N-air an undisputedly good move

 

[Makorel]

@ Thinkaman At the risk of making that list more foolish by including a character we've had for less than a day: You forgot Mewtwo.

 

[Thinkaman]

Is there one of these for every character?

Look down.

@ Thinkaman At the risk of making that list more foolish by including a character we've had for less than a day: You forgot Mewtwo.

I would, but I'm bad at darts.

 

[thehard]

Look down.

*poignant musing about our society's rapidly decreasing attention span due to technology* (Thank you)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Thinkaman At the risk of making that list more foolish by including a character we've had for less than a day: You forgot Mewtwo.

We could always have a dedicated "Who the hell knows" tier.

 

[Smog Frog]

who the hell knows tier:
kinda

 

[Ffamran]

who the hell knows tier:
kinda

Half the cast could technically all be dumped in that category.

 

[Cook]

Give @ Cook his dues---he placed 5th in a regional against solid players like M2K and Dabuz, the highest so far offline. Same with @slavoslav and others. Right now, aside from the odd local here and there, I'm just a mouthpiece.

You'll be seeing me at EVO and other events soon enough, though.

Smooth Criminal

lolwut did someone I don't know randomly dis me?

Thanks for the love, but I gotta point out that Dabuz was not there. It was a Chicago Olimar called Greenbeast. Certainly an OK player, but nowhere near Dabuz's level.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

lolwut did someone I don't know randomly dis me?

Thanks for the love, but I gotta point out that Dabuz was not there. It was a Chicago Olimar called Greenbeast. Certainly an OK player, but nowhere near Dabuz's level.

My bad, but still, you placed high. Had to give you some love.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If we're making crazy predictions I'll make one. I don't think Diddy Kong is a top 10 character with these nerfs. The core reason he was good was that he combined speed and kill power; his kill power is drastically nerfed to the point that he's perhaps one of the worst characters at killing now. His fundamentally pretty good neutral will keep him out of low tier probably, but I struggle to see this character as anything special anymore.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

We could always have a dedicated "Who the hell knows" tier.

Brb putting 45 characters in a tier.

 

[Pazx]

If we're making crazy predictions I'm going to say that Diddy only has 1 losing matchup post-patch and that's Rosalina with customs.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If we're making crazy predictions I'll make one. I don't think Diddy Kong is a top 10 character with these nerfs. The core reason he was good was that he combined speed and kill power; his kill power is drastically nerfed to the point that he's perhaps one of the worst characters at killing now. His fundamentally pretty good neutral will keep him out of low tier probably, but I struggle to see this character as anything special anymore.

Sheik is bad at killing, look where she is.

He still is great at stage control, pressure, punishing shields, beating out other attacks with his faster ones, Uair still has it stupid hit box, mobility, etc. He can also still kill confirm with banana into Fsmash (ending was nerfed, not the start up).

I see him as still second.

 

[Djent]

KirbyKid is playing 3132 (lol) on TourneyLocator. Up 1-0 on Gyo's .

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If we're making crazy predictions I'm going to say that Diddy only has 1 losing matchup post-patch and that's Rosalina with customs.

Why would his best match-up against another high tier become his worst? Diddy wrecked Rosalina way harder than he wrecked any other good character pre-patch. I wouldn't be surprised if, even though Diddy will probably drop out of top 10, he'll still have an advantage over Rosalina. If anything I think you have it exactly backward; most good characters will now beat Diddy except Rosalina who will lose to him still (but it will probably be close to even instead of kinda disgustingly far in Diddy's favor like it was before).

I also in general think people overrate Diddy's "everything else" because of how good his kill converts were. Diddy's neutral is fundamentally decent, but it's not even close to Sheik level. Sheik gets away with being so overwhelmingly awful at killing because her neutral is so insanely oppressive that she realistically can outdamage everyone else and can set up for what limited kill options she has in a million different highly practical ways. Diddy is a lot slower than Sheik, and Diddy is seriously vulnerable off-stage unlike Sheik who finds the off-stage area mostly a playground. I'm not saying Diddy will be truly bad; he still seems to have great combo potential and some great normals, but then again, so does Mario. Is Diddy still better than Mario? I'm not convinced...

 

[Terotrous]

Humor me for a moment. (And don't follow my lead--this is silly nonsense and we don't need two dozen of these lists.)

Speculative Day 1 1.0.6 Tier List

Hey, you can't make a Day 1 tier list and leave out the new character, that's cheating. Also, have many of the characters actually moved at all in the patch, besides Diddy? Like why did Swordfighter and Kirby not go up? I feel like you're just goofing on us by reposting literally the exact same tier list as before.

 

[san.]

While i find the D-tilt buff dubious in effectiveness the N-air buff for Swordfighter is really good as it makes N-air an undisputedly good move

I have the opposite opinion. I think the change to dtilt really opened up a lot of options for swordfighter. Dtilt can combo into itself at low % + rage, into grab, and then into fair at mid percents. That's an easy 18-25%, ~18% for dtilt to fair and ~25% for dtilt->dthrow->uair. The nair buff allows for combos into dtilt at low percent, too.

The nair buff allows for much safer landings and some low % combos, but I find it difficult to combo much, unless I land with it at low percents, though it's better as an aerial spacer than a ground one. Swordfighter *definitely* needed some much needed assistance with landing, so this is still very good since nair was not viable to land with before.

The hero's spin buff is great. Swordfighter now has a really strong OoS kill move that can be charged at the edge.

The A+B set to smash allows for pivot smash reads on Swordfighter's odd high power + speed + endlag fsmash.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I agree with Thinkaman's top picks, though less so as I go down the list. Though the latter part is natural as lower-tiered characters are less understood (and so ranking variance should be higher).

/ will dominate tournaments with customs off.
Customs on will be dominated by /// in some order.

gets wrecked by still.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sheik is bad at killing, look where she is.

He still is great at stage control, pressure, punishing shields, beating out other attacks with his faster ones, Uair still has it stupid hit box, mobility, etc. He can also still kill confirm with banana into Fsmash (ending was nerfed, not the start up).

I see him as still second.

You can't compare Sheik and Diddy like that and expect it to line up nicely. Previously, Diddy's neutral was not better than Sheik's. He simply gained a lot of reward from spacing you out with F-air and his amazing throw game, and he had massively strong kill confirms (U-throw > U-air bodied Rosie and Sheik to oblivion). Diddy lost a lot of easy set-ups and now has to work harder at setting up kills, and it's much easier as a player to avoid a Diddy who wants to trap you with a banana and F-Smash.

Sheik's neutral is overwhelmingly better than Diddy's. Not only is F-air safe on shield, but she still has high speed, a great combo game, and can play safe against the overwhelming majority of the cast. Her edgeguarding is also potent and she can mindgame you into Up-B or U-air to avoid you living forever. Her recovery is also overwhelmingly safe. On the other hand, Diddy has more KO potency than Sheik and (still) deals more damage per hit, but his recovery is very vulnerable.

Right now, I want to say Diddy is still high tier, top 10 perhaps. However, I severely doubt he's #2 when he lost his easy kill set-ups and even further his main sources of damage were nerfed too.

 

[Shaya]

If my speculation is correct.

U/D Throw -> Up Air -> Heavy barrel custom Up-B = killing people reliably now due to much worse up air scaling.

Diddy probably now has reasons to use customs and has to take "losses" to achieve them. Battering Banana and heavy up-b are better for what Diddy probably wants to still be able to do (easy-ish kill confirms) but are worse for all the other stuff. Clear trade offs, but watch out for radioactive combos I'd say.

ZSS being no.1... please no don't say that. I prefer to keep maining 5th in the game please.
Diddy was probably her hardest match up. If fair hitbox changes were true it'll be a definite flip over by a long shot. She still wouldn't have a good time pressuring him while he holds bananas though, but the risk will be significantly reduced.
She does beat Rosalina imo, so yeah, goodie.
Sheik match up was already good except for needles and crouching, neither of which were touched, bair being weaker, much like diddy's fair, will probably help her a lot but I think all the changes are going to do is force Sheik to time us out more (which she's very capable of doing and there's not much ZSS can do about it).

 

[Blobface]

My bad, but still, you placed high. Had to give you some love.

Smooth Criminal

That avatar...

I got nothing.

In all seriousness, while Dedede didn't get any buffs in this update, do you think he benefited from some of the top-tier nerfs?

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey, you can't make a Day 1 tier list and leave out the new character, that's cheating. Also, have many of the characters actually moved at all in the patch, besides Diddy? Like why did Swordfighter and Kirby not go up? I feel like you're just goofing on us by reposting literally the exact same tier list as before.

Naw, there's actually quite a big shaken up, and not even by the patch. MK is skyrocketing, I gave DDD more respect, a few other shifts here and there (Customs WFT bared eek'd into the next tier.) Doc, Swordfighter, and Lucina "went up" but had no one to really pass. (Also: Zelda)

 

[Blobface]

Does anyone actually know Mewtwo's weight at this point? I've heard rumors everywhere but no actual number to back them up.

 

[Locuan]

Does anyone actually know Mewtwo's weight at this point? I've heard rumors everywhere but no actual number to back them up.

It's 72.
http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/page-8#post-18997240

 

[Thinkaman]

Mewtwo d-smash is a frame-21 move that is safe on standard block and spot-dodge.

Huh. Bizzare.

 

[FearTheJiggles]

So was there any changes to pikachu and cap. Falcon? Also how bad did the nerf shiek?

 

[Thinkaman]

Go check out the patch notes thread.

Also, Mewtwo's new Confusion is where it's at. This is the reason to play this character, alongside Shadow Ball.

It's so good that they had to specially hard-code it such that you couldn't hit with it twice successively. Think about that.

 

[Shaya]

Go check out the patch notes thread.

Also, Mewtwo's new Confusion is where it's at. This is the reason to play this character, alongside Shadow Ball.

It's so good that they had to specially hard-code it such that you couldn't hit with it twice successively. Think about that.

Even if they land on the ground in between them (while still comboing)?
That's how all the other 'stuns' work.

 

[WingedKnight]

Go check out the patch notes thread.

Also, Mewtwo's new Confusion is where it's at. This is the reason to play this character, alongside Shadow Ball.

It's so good that they had to specially hard-code it such that you couldn't hit with it twice successively. Think about that.

As someone who's codes were not received, causing me to wait until I can call customer support: explain this. I've heard that people can act out of Confusion tumble and punish you at the same time you can act to follow up. So what makes it so good in your eyes, how are you using it? I'd love to know it's more useful than just reflecting.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Even if they land on the ground in between them (while still comboing)?
That's how all the other 'stuns' work.

I think it's because it's a command grab? Maybe? I'm not sure if the regrab timer applies to them or not.

Mewtwo d-smash is a frame-21 move that is safe on standard block and spot-dodge.

Huh. Bizzare.

Wait, what?

 

[Conda]

For those who want to see what Mewtwo plays like and some basic tips, here's a video I worked on to show you guys & gals whom either don't have access to him yet, or aren't sure you want to buy him yet:

Hopefully that gives those asking a lot about Mewtwo in this thread some info, so we can all at least be on equal footing when it comes to knowing what he's like in Smash 4. Cheers

 

[PKBeam]

Wait, what?

Yeah, I found that weird as well.

 

[Conda]

Yeah, I found that weird as well.

It's a one-side dsmash though, which is rare (Lucas has one too, a funny thing to have in common for the first two DLC characters). It's a large weakness in the move and likely the cause for it having safety.

 

[PKBeam]

like you said, it might be to make up for mewtwo's lack of a move that hits on both sides but i feel that the reason for making Dsmash to fast to end is to help his role as a glass cannon and also just to give him a general buff.

 

[Thinkaman]

Even if they land on the ground in between them (while still comboing)?
That's how all the other 'stuns' work.

Yeah.

Also, Confusion beats super armor. It counts as a grab.

 

[Radical Larry]

Disable is now apparently a viable tactic with its speed and close range that can link up into any Smash attack of his and land a good amount of damage or lead up into a KO. A very nice thing to use with Mewtwo.

I love Ganondorf's Neutral buff, as it now feels like he's going to be really powerful. His neutral may be short, but it packs a punch that is nearly as powerful as his own tilts. This can be good for racking up fast damage aside from using U-Smash or D-Smash, or any of the aerials. Also, hooray for Ganoncide still letting him win.

For a reason, I feel as if Link is unchanged to be honest, he doesn't seem to have gotten worse with the nerfs he took, and is still the same old raging Link that will always get you once he hits you with a Bomb. Half-joking aside, I love his U-Throw change and D-Throw change, as I consider them to be buffs.

Link's U-Throw can now link more properly into U-Tilt or even U-Smash, giving it better juggling and offensive options. D-Throw can now actually combo into an attack, like Link's U-Air, something that couldn't be done before. So in all, despite the nerf to damage and the IASA frames, Link is still solid and half-viable.