Character Competitive Impressions

[LiteralGrill]

Also not everyone plays with Customs. Best to remember that.

Literally every single Mewtwo player doesn't use customs.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

B-throw, F-throw, and U-throw took some heavy nerfs. Apparently Burning Spin Dash lost invincibility frames but I don't think that has been confirmed.

Also not everyone plays with Customs. Best to remember that.

I was able to get all of the same combos with uthrow to work at least until around 80%; how was it nerfed? I actually haven't seen those other throw nerfs claimed elsewhere on the forum; the Sonic boards are all over the place claiming this and that with the only clear agreement being the nerfs to default side-B and back throw. I dunno about Burning Spin Dash (I've seen a few people claim it but no one in a credible way... that is explaining how in specific they verified this), but I'm quite sure Hammer Spin Dash which was the single best side-B variation is the same.

It's true that (for now) not everyone plays with customs, but those players are not truly barred from customs. If they are really unhappy with Sonic's side special nerf, there is a button in the top-right of the screen they can click to fix it...


---

As per Mewtwo, can anyone who can play against another skilled human test the Confusion to fsmash combo? That is, try to DI every which way and try teching at any point you hit the ground. It seems visually obvious you can tech out of Confusion to dsmash, but it's a lot less obvious with fsmash. Confusion does completely fixed knockback so if that combos it will always combo which makes Confusion a pretty ridiculously good move. If that doesn't combo, then things could easily swing the other way; I'm really not sure if Mewtwo has any kill set-ups at all other than that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You can jump/act out of Confusion before Mewtwo gets any guaranteed followups, but it at least forces a situation where Mewtwo can make a prediction and maybe punish you.

Mewtwo has a kill setup in his Nair, actually. Nair has set knockback, Nair Fastfall into Grab into B-throw/U-Throw is valid. Outside of that, not a ton of ways to setup kills but Fair is fast and can steal a kill if they sleep on it.

He has a lot of really good ways to rack up damage though, Dtilt is like, GODLIKE (how is it even better in this game WTF)

He feels really solid to me, like, he really FLOWS well. I think he's good for people who like spacing and capitalizing off of it. Not really offensive but more of a guy who hangs in neutral (not defensive 100% either) and converts stuff off of a solid poke. Seriously DTILT IS WACK GOOD

 

[BestTeaMaker]

I've been talking to people, and it seems like Mewtwo's confusion is best used in the air since he actually does have combos out of it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mewtwo has a kill setup in his Nair, actually. Nair has set knockback, Nair Fastfall into Grab into B-throw/U-Throw is valid. Outside of that, not a ton of ways to setup kills but Fair is fast and can steal a kill if they sleep on it.

He has a lot of really good ways to rack up damage though, Dtilt is like, GODLIKE (how is it even better in this game WTF)

I'm a bit dubious about the Nair combing into Grab. Depending on when you land, they can either be in front or behind you. You almost have to 50/50 yourself in order to get the grab. I did however experiment with the set knockback and using it off stage. If you grab the ledge at the right time, the set knockback sends them down at a 45 degree angle away from the stage edge. Not very far, but I think most characters would have to use their double jump and it just leaves them in a horrible spot.

Dtilt is amazing though, yes. Dtilt -> Utilt -> Aerial seems to be a true combo at lower percents. In theory I guess Dtilt -> Utilt -> Nair -> Grab -> Possibly Dthrow -> Follow Up maybe?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm a bit dubious about the Nair combing into Grab. Depending on when you land, they can either be in front or behind you. You almost have to 50/50 yourself in order to get the grab. I did however experiment with the set knockback and using it off stage. If you grab the ledge at the right time, the set knockback sends them down at a 45 degree angle away from the stage edge. Not very far, but I think most characters would have to use their double jump and it just leaves them in a horrible spot.

Dtilt is amazing though, yes. Dtilt -> Utilt -> Aerial seems to be a true combo at lower percents. In theory I guess Dtilt -> Utilt -> Nair -> Grab -> Possibly Dthrow -> Follow Up maybe?

Dtilt has a followup for every single percent that isn't like 120 or higher on non-floaties. It's ABSURD. I <3 it to pieces. Interesting find on his Nair!

Also D-Throw is cheeks but it works good if you get a stray grab and don't want them to fly away from you too far. D-throw has no real combo potential but I can see why they nerfed it, if he had that it'd be kind of absurd. He's a lot better now, wow. All of his moves feel like they have a purpose outside of Ftilt (Ftilt just feels so outclassed by Dtilt, really.)

 

[warionumbah2]

Mewtwo in two words: Glass cannon

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mewtwo in two words: Glass cannon

Yeah I can agree with this. His disadvantage doesn't feel too great (although teleport is awesome) but his advantage is amazing and when he gets the hit he certainly can make the most of it in almost all situations.

I'm in loooveeeee

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo's Shadow Ball actually kills earlier than Samus's Charge Shot, below 100% without any rage. With rage I think it becomes one of the scarier moves in the game, ESPECIALLY because Mewtwo is the only wielder of a charge shot who can also reflect.

 

[Terotrous]

Okay, the patch is out, so it's baseless speculation time! Yay!


Obviously, Diddy Kong is significantly nerfed. Hoo Haw still works just fine, it's just no longer nearly as powerful. FAir is also nowhere near the demon it once was. Now he basically plays like how a speedy character should play. I expect him to drop a few positions, likely to where Yoshi, Greninja, and other good but not OP characters are. His neutral is still very strong, but other characters get a lot more chances to beat him now.


As far as other characters, it seems like most of the changes are good ones (Kirby Inhale being faster is pretty huge for him, and Swordfighter got a lot better too). The dumbest nerf is to ROB's UThrow, that was totally unneeded. Zelda also doesn't seem like she got much help, and is likely still the worst character in the game.


I haven't had a chance to play Mewtwo yet, but from moveset videos I'm not especially impressed. He's clearly no PM Mewtwo (UpB still becomes helpless, sigh), though he clearly still has some solid hitboxes on his tail attacks. I expect him to be decent but not especially incredible, probably somewhere around the middle of the cast.


No customs for M2 is interesting, that seems to make it a safe bet that Lucas won't have them either. I assume this is to prevent the potentially odd situation where your save file has customs unlocked for DLC character that you don't currently have. I feel like this and the changes in this patch (and particularly, the fact that customs themselves appear untouched) is going to reopen the discussion on whether we want to go with customs on or off. I'm not going to lie, I'm quite heavily leaning towards Off at this point, since it seems like most of the balance issues with that metagame have been addressed.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

Mewtwo's Shadow Ball actually kills earlier than Samus's Charge Shot, below 100% without any rage. With rage I think it becomes one of the scarier moves in the game, ESPECIALLY because Mewtwo is the only wielder of a charge shot who can also reflect.

That's with the default set too, poor gunner.

 

[Flamecircle]

So apparently Rosalina made it out completely intact, which is bad.
Of All Characters, I don't want Rosalina and Luma to be the "best."
They have some of the most polarizing matchups matchups in the game.

 

[Terotrous]

So apparently Rosalina made it out completely intact, which is bad.
Of All Characters, I don't want Rosalina and Luma to be the "best."
They have some of the most polarizing matchups matchups in the game.

Apparently Luma now has very slightly less health.

 

[Nobie]

I noticed that Mewtwo's shadow ball eats shields like crazy. It doesn't break them or anything, but it often makes it so that the opponent can't block the next attack if it comes fast enough.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So apparently Rosalina made it out completely intact, which is bad.
Of All Characters, I don't want Rosalina and Luma to be the "best."
They have some of the most polarizing matchups matchups in the game.

Customs helps a lot of characters deal with Luma...

 

[incrediblej]

My first impression of Mewtwo is pretty solid. So far, I don't think he's one of the top since he has a few things that hold him down (bit slow, floaty, big, somewhat light too?) but he's definitely not bad. Killing is definitely not one of his problems. His Uthrow kills crazy early, his Side B combos into almost everything including F/Dsmash, his Fair is fast, strong and safe, his Usmash kills good and has good range, strong projectile, reflector... He has some decent range on things like Dtilt, and his Jab and Dash Attack have big disjointed hitboxes. Especially his jab like wtf. He's not going to very fun for those who like aggressive playstyles though: defense seems to work much better for him than offense.



I have never ever used this as Peach main. This is barely a nerf, leave alone a heavy one. She merely lost something useless. I have never seen any Megamin or Link use this either.

your right not a nerf I use tink and never held my bombs you throw them to get hits with smashes so I see that as a useless thing to keep

And I'm hoping oli got some decent buffs he doesn't have any thing good on shield smashes are good but havent gotten the update yet so im wait for everyone else to find the buffs and nerfs

Btw on mobile when im typing the Text appears slowly and sometimes when trying to delete a word it merges them
have galaxy s3 was just wondering if anyone has the same issues on mobile or its just my phone

 

[bc1910]

Was the knockback on Sheik's Bair nerfed? Because if not I don't see that damage nerf accomplishing... much of anything, really. Bair is mostly used for edgeguarding which it will still do just as well if the KB hasn't changed, and I guess it makes Bair chains across the stage less damaging but Fair chains are generally superior for that.

Yeah, Sheik is probably #1 for now. It's early to throw that out there but with Diddy nerfed pretty hard and their surrounding characters either unchanged (Zero Suit, Rosalina) or nerfed (Sonic) I can't see anyone challenging Sheik for the #1 position if she was widely considered #2 prepatch.

 

[PK Gaming]

Re: Robin

Robin is still mediocre, but the question we have to ask ourselves is thus:

How Mediocre?

Several of his/her worst matchups got nerfed and his/her wind jab is much stronger (it's a pretty solid KO option now)

I doubt he'll/she'll shoot up in the tiers, but I think he/she is definitely stronger.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Was the knockback on Sheik's Bair nerfed? Because if not I don't see that damage nerf accomplishing... much of anything, really. Bair is mostly used for edgeguarding which it will still do just as well if the KB hasn't changed, and I guess it makes Bair chains across the stage less damaging but Fair chains are generally superior for that.

Yeah, Sheik is probably #1 for now. It's early to throw that out there but with Diddy nerfed pretty hard and their surrounding characters either unchanged (Zero Suit, Rosalina) or nerfed (Sonic) I can't see anyone challenging Sheik for the #1 position if she was widely considered #2 prepatch.

KB and damage was nerfed yes.

 

[David Viran]

Was the knockback on Sheik's Bair nerfed? Because if not I don't see that damage nerf accomplishing... much of anything, really. Bair is mostly used for edgeguarding which it will still do just as well if the KB hasn't changed, and I guess it makes Bair chains across the stage less damaging but Fair chains are generally superior for that.

Yeah, Sheik is probably #1 for now. It's early to throw that out there but with Diddy nerfed pretty hard and their surrounding characters either unchanged (Zero Suit, Rosalina) or nerfed (Sonic) I can't see anyone challenging Sheik for the #1 position if she was widely considered #2 prepatch.

I think the kb on sheiks Bair was nerfed pretty bad.

 

[Terotrous]

Was the knockback on Sheik's Bair nerfed? Because if not I don't see that damage nerf accomplishing... much of anything, really. Bair is mostly used for edgeguarding which it will still do just as well if the KB hasn't changed, and I guess it makes Bair chains across the stage less damaging but Fair chains are generally superior for that.

Yeah, Sheik is probably #1 for now. It's early to throw that out there but with Diddy nerfed pretty hard and their surrounding characters either unchanged (Zero Suit, Rosalina) or nerfed (Sonic) I can't see anyone challenging Sheik for the #1 position if she was widely considered #2 prepatch.

The only thing I could see challenging Sheik is relative changes in matchup dynamics. For example, if you had a terrible matchup against Diddy Kong, you just got a huge indirect buff in that Diddy is no longer nearly as dangerous. If Sheik has bad matchups against any of these characters, that may hurt her a bit. Similarly, having bad matchups against, say, Kirby or Swordfighter might actually matter now.

It's too soon to determine how that will all shake out, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Sheik at #1. However, I don't think she'll be #1 by as much as Diddy was.

 

[|RK|]

I noticed that Mewtwo's shadow ball eats shields like crazy. It doesn't break them or anything, but it often makes it so that the opponent can't block the next attack if it comes fast enough.

Seriously. Earlier I snapped a shield with a Shadow Ball then FSmash.

 

[Luco]

Oh, right, Ness main reporting in.

We're still investigating the proper changes, I'll get back to you on the specifics. Not much has changed (except we now have a kill throw contender, Mewtwo that Uthrow is insane, it's not quite as powerful as ours but it's a helluva lot more reliable and that means a LOT to me), Dthrow has a bit of a funky aesthetic now where the screen shakes. I think our throw percents have been slightly changed (nothing of importance) and maybe some aerials (did Bair always do 15%? o.O) but for the most part yep we're doing pretty good.

If Sonic's Bthrow has been nerfed among other things though, then Ness is actually a lot better. Contrary to popular belief, we believe Sonic is our worst MU over Rosaluma, and if Sonic's been nerfed then we're smooth sailing a lot more than we once were.

I'll letcha know if there's anything of note that we find later. =3

 

[Superbat]

Back throw on sonic kills like only 10% later. Sonic still bodies Ness lol. (Sonic player here)
@ zeldasmash You cant be ****ing serious

 

[zeldasmash]

By god, what did they do to Link's Jab 1? This nerf is so unwarranted, yet so deadly, that Link might be one of the worst in the game now. Yet Toon Link's was left unchanged, and Fox (FOX!!) and Dedede still have their jab locks......

 

[FullMoon]

I'm so glad they didn't mess with Greninja since he was already well balanced.

Mewtwo looks like he'll be really good. I don't care about him myself but he looks really solid. Though... He can die pretty quickly. Truly a glass cannon.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol Kirby would enjoy a Sheik meta.
From what I understand, Diddy has the same **** it is just less rewarding and to some extent less safe.

Wonder how the extra damage has translated to Lucina's shield safety relative to Marth.

 

[Djent]

/ receiving no changes (AFAIK) is kind of a big deal. So is the fact that 's custom spin dashes are intact (they're both obvious upgrades now).

 

[Emblem Lord]

You can jump/act out of Confusion before Mewtwo gets any guaranteed followups, but it at least forces a situation where Mewtwo can make a prediction and maybe punish you.

Mewtwo has a kill setup in his Nair, actually. Nair has set knockback, Nair Fastfall into Grab into B-throw/U-Throw is valid. Outside of that, not a ton of ways to setup kills but Fair is fast and can steal a kill if they sleep on it.

He has a lot of really good ways to rack up damage though, Dtilt is like, GODLIKE (how is it even better in this game WTF)

He feels really solid to me, like, he really FLOWS well. I think he's good for people who like spacing and capitalizing off of it. Not really offensive but more of a guy who hangs in neutral (not defensive 100% either) and converts stuff off of a solid poke. Seriously DTILT IS WACK GOOD

Attention all Marth players

 

[Anomilus]

B-Reversing fully-charged Shadow Balls. Fun times, shooting Mewtwo towards the opponent from over half FD distance.

Definitely has high-tier recovery for sure.

Confusion is pretty much a non-grab short-ranged, more versatile verision of Flame Choke. It doesn't really combo, but it easily sets up into whatever. Flip 'em and attack or grab or chase 'em. Oh, and reflector too. Unlike Confusion however, Disable does reward guaranteed follow-ups and is fairly safe. Landing it at the right percentage means you ARE going to die since Mewtwo's Smash attacks are no joke.

EDIT - My mistake, Confusion does count as a grab. Can't normal grab after using it.

 

[Luco]

Also wouldn't disable ---> fully charged shadow ball be guaranteed too?

EDIT: Awww, and here I was thinking we could finally make that a -1 MU. =P Meahhhh.

 

[M15t3R E]

Mewtwo apparently is quite capable, offensively. I wonder if this is enough to make him high tier even considering his surprisingly low weight.

 

[Firefoxx]

Mewtwo thing - close u-tilt (not quite touching close, it has some really weird hitboxes) -> u-smash true combos on Mario at KO percents. It starts KOing solidly at 100. I know that at 95-99 percent it can KO, but a lot of the time Mario just doesn't get sucked in by the first hit of upsmash and pops out completely. Edit: This is just what it does if you don't link it fast enough. So it does start solidly KOing at 95%

No rage no DI. The hitbox you need from uptilt is pretty precise so this might not be the most practical thing

Edit 2: Side-b -> walk up utilt -> Upsmash true combos on Mario at 100 85%. 16 hit 29% damage combo that ends in one super dead plumber

 

[Iron Kraken]

I can't even begin to explain how much the demolition of Diddy Kong helps Rosalina. Diddy Kong was BY FAR her worst match up. In fact, it was so bad that there's a good chance it's still her worst match up... but now it's MUCH more manageable.

I really don't think Rosalina has a bad match up anymore. Especially not with customs on.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty sure custom sheik stomps rosalinas face in.

 

[DunnoBro]

Kirby and puff being good would definitely make things hard for sheik to dominate too handily.

 

[Locke 06]

I have never seen any Megamin or Link use this either.

Item tilting is a staple of high level mega man play. Ninjalink probably had the most advanced item pellet game of the notable mega man players and would use this quite a bit. Item fsmashing was rarely used by mega man, but I remember seeing a few links use it.

Sad to see it go, but it's not the end of the world for Mega or Link. SH z-drop>z-catch pelleting is still a thing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Pretty sure custom sheik stomps rosalinas face in.

Yeah last I checked this was actually true. Others might not be a stomp but I would find it very hard to believe that (assuming customs) she has no bad MUs at all.

 

[Terotrous]

I thought people were previously claiming MK and Falcon did pretty well against Rosa?

In any case, it's also worth noting that while Diddy is much weaker, he's likely not completely useless. His neutral game is still as strong as it ever was, he just doesn't kill you quite as fast. If Zero was 2-stocking you before, he'll still get a solid one-stock even if he has to put on more damage.

 

[deepseadiva]

Obviously, Diddy Kong is significantly nerfed. Hoo Haw still works just fine, it's just no longer nearly as powerful. FAir is also nowhere near the demon it once was. Now he basically plays like how a speedy character should play. I expect him to drop a few positions, likely to where Yoshi, Greninja, and other good but not OP characters are. His neutral is still very strong, but other characters get a lot more chances to beat him now.

Don't even think the changes are so drastic anyone noticeable surpasses him now.

If anything he just lost his S Tier status to join the plebs in A+ with Rosa and Sheik. Which is good.

I can now justifiably call this the best balanced Smash in history.