Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

Don't even think the changes are so drastic anyone noticeable surpasses him now.

Eh, I definitely see him as below Sheik and Rosa now. They were already decently close to him, but he got nerfed quite a bit while they didn't.

I think he may still be top 10, but he's definitely no longer a clear #1.


I will call this the most balanced Smash when they fix Zelda. Until then BBrawl still has that title.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik's nerfs were totally pointless imo. Should've nerfed needles more than anything. She kinda sucked before the patch but with Diddy / Sonic nerfed she's likely #1 now because nerfed bair and dtilt are pretty insignificant.

 

[Quickhero]

I can now justifiably call this the best balanced Smash in history.

1.04 Diddy Kong didn't make this game so that characters became unviable with his simple existence, nor did he have anything so jank that he was making the game really one-sided.

Honestly Smash 4 has been the most fair Smash game/even one of the most fair fighting games around. Whether that's due to the lack of time or the fact that most characters have tools that allow them to function competitively is up to you. It could be both. True balance is inherently impossible in a fighting game since different characters have different tools for combat which means a character will ALWAYS be generally better than others. 1.04 is one of the closest things to a balanced fighting game out there. Maybe 1.06 will be slightly more "balanced", or not; only time can tell.

 

[ZSaberLink]

By god, what did they do to Link's Jab 1? This nerf is so unwarranted, yet so deadly, that Link might be one of the worst in the game now. Yet Toon Link's was left unchanged, and Fox (FOX!!) and Dedede still have their jab locks......

Yeh it's absolutely ridiculous. Jab 1 for Link is NO LONGER safe on shield.... so WTF are we supposed to use then? Nintendo clearly didn't understand Link's Jab 1, since it wasn't actually an infinite at all, but was annoying for like Ganon. All they needed to do was get rid of the weird suction effect on Jab 1 and it all would've been fine. Uggh....

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think Diddy is only down to spot #2. He still has the same overall game plan, he just needs to keep it up longer each stock to get the kill. He's still going to be wracking up damage like a madman, still has Fsmash out of banana as a kill confirm, can still eventually kill with Uair. The gameplan itself is still very difficult for many characters to battle.

Sheik only lost a kill option kinda. It doesn't change her that much. If everyone gravitates towards her, I suspect with the Lucas patch she'll get nerfed more.

 

[deepseadiva]

Where are the Mewtwo impressions

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Where are the Mewtwo impressions

The insanity known as the Mewtwo boards atm.

 

[Gunla]

Where are the Mewtwo impressions

Well, here's my personal thoughts to start some discussion.

's quite the glass cannon, to be obvious. He's got some destructive stuff, but it's a case of "don't get hit at higher %s" because he will go flying. I think he's a character with some potential, and will definitely be represented at least for the next couple of months "because it's Mewtwo!"

Also, the Mewtwo boards are pretty active, so a lot of discussion, ad Nidtendofreak said, is there.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

can still eventually kill with Uair.

If by "eventually" you mean at ~160% if the opponent fails to DI correctly ... you would be right. Uair doesn't kill **** anymore.

Where are the Mewtwo impressions

Good moveset but fast rushdown characters with good KO options like Fox or Falcon will probably murder him.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I think some people are underestimating the impact of the Diddy nerf.

He kills like 30% later than he used to. His total damage output is also down something like 15-20% across the board. Basically, he's having to earn an extra 50% on stocks (in terms of his old damage output) in order get the kill.

Then combine that with the fact that in a game with rage, he's allowing his opponents to live higher %s and often kill him earlier.

And combine that with added cool down F-Smash, and less hit stun on D-Throw.

These are HUGE nerfs. If you still think Diddy is top tier now, surely you must have thought he was SSS tier before (which you could argue he was). But if you thought he was only slightly ahead of the rest of the pack before... but you still think he's top tier now, I think you need to reconsider just how hard he got nerfed.

 

[Yonder]

So Gamefaqs says [rumor has it] ZSS got less ending lag on grab, and up b and up air buff.

Please be Placebo. Otherwise her reign of fury will return [she was more used than Falcon on FG at first]

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So Gamefaqs says [rumor has it] ZSS got less ending lag on grab, and up b and up air buff.

Please be Placebo. Otherwise her reign of fury will return [she was more used than Falcon on FG at first]

None of that is true. If there were any changes to ZSS at all they are minimal.

 

[DunnoBro]

Diddy still has a ridiculously potent combo, camp/mix-up, and good killing ability. He's definitely still a solid if not top tier character, especially when the other top tiers received nerfs mostly relative to their dominance compared to him.

Diddy killing later really just puts him on the same playing field as everyone else.

He's going to need to drastically change his playstyle, as it was entirely polarized around grabs and upairs, but he's definitely still viable.

 

[Trifroze]

The patch seems good for Falcon, despite him not seeing any notable changes. That's because Diddy, Sonic and Sheik were bad matchups for him all of whom got nerfed more or less, especially Diddy. I think Falcon vs Rosalina, ZSS, Ness, Fox and Yoshi are all fairly even, so we don't mind if there's an influx of those players now. This makes me consider Falcon as a top 10 character now, although this same effect could apply to some other characters too.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Sheik bair is the biggest nerf, more significant than any single Diddy nerf, even (barely) uair.

Diddy was nerfed more total, but Sheik bair nerf is huge. Huge. Losing scant KO power really hurts her.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Diddy still has a ridiculously potent combo, camp/mix-up, and good killing ability. He's definitely still a solid if not top tier character, especially when the other top tiers received nerfs mostly relative to their dominance compared to him.

Diddy killing later really just puts him on the same playing field as everyone else.

He's going to need to drastically change his playstyle, as it was entirely polarized around grabs and upairs, but he's definitely still viable.

What exactly makes you say that Diddy has "good" killing ability compared to most characters in this game?

U-Air and Fair really aren't great kill moves anymore at all. F-Smash also got both a knockback and a lag nerf.

 

[DunnoBro]

What exactly makes you say that Diddy has "good" killing ability compared to most characters in this game?

U-Air and Fair really aren't great kill moves anymore at all. F-Smash also got both a knockback and a lag nerf.

It's really not that laggy, and it's still strong as hell.

And his nair sets up for off the top kills with upair. Downtilt > Upsmash is also still a thing. Not many characters have true combos into kills.

It went unused because upair was just about as strong, but upsmash still works.

Diddy actually has a -lot- of tools and options that went unused because there was no reason to use them. Upair covered more options safer and would killer sooner.

I think Sheik bair is the biggest nerf, more significant than any single Diddy nerf, even (barely) uair.

Diddy was nerfed more total, but Sheik bair nerf is huge. Huge. Losing scant KO power really hurts her.

It's probably mostly a nerf, however bair does true combo into b-reversed bouncing fish, letting it still be a kill set-up.

It's pretty hard to b-reverse it, know to shorten it, lengthen it, or even know to go for sweet or sourspot, but it does make RAR Bair a very potent move and combo starter now. Fair for damage/spacing, bair for kills.

In customs, this also sets up very well for gravity grenade.

 

[Blobface]

Sheik's B-air nerf makes Ganon so happy. Nothing like surviving "Kill moves" to 180%!

Also, Mewtwo is definitely solid. Jab leads into grabs, Confusion is an excellent setup*, Shadow Ball is powerful projectile, Teleport is good out of disadvantage, and all his normals flow and combo well. He's not without his flaws, but he's definitely high tier.

*note: The combo counter in training does weird things with command grabs. As far as I know, it doesn't true combo into anything. It's still a great setup though

 

[David Viran]

You know diddy's fair apparantly extends his hurtbox now so you can challenge it more easily.

 

[Luco]

You know diddy's fair apparantly extends his hurtbox now so you can challenge it more easily.

Woah is this true? I remember before this update we were trading with his Fair. Things could have changed.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm busy (de)confirming changes. Anyone want to be awesome and collect preliminary Mewtwo frame data by comparing to known existing moves on other characters?

I'm really curious how fast his jab, u-smash, fair, nair, and dair in particular are.

Edit for reference: http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU

 

[LostinpinK]

Also, Mewtwo is definitely solid. Jab leads into grabs, Confusion is an excellent setup*, Shadow Ball is powerful projectile, Teleport is good out of disadvantage, and all his normals flow and combo well. He's not without his flaws, but he's definitely high tier.

I agreed this morning when I first played mewtwo in dittos : woah great killpower, setups, jab, throws, etc.
Then I realized that he is lighter than G&W. Lighter than a 2D character. Heavier than a Puff of air though, great.

I'm already pretty sure Mewtwo has unwinnable matchups against MK, probably true for falcon and fox as well. There's no way that he'll be high tier for me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He won't have an unwinnable against MK. Nobody does. Fox, Falcon and Yoshi look like particularly bad matchups for him though.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Mewtwo's Jab setups, in particular, are incredibly solid. Off of Jab 1, he can (of course) go for his Jab combo for safeness and it has pretty solid range in front of him (but not above him). He also has Confusion which can potentially lead into OTHER things, namely Shadowball/Disable/Utilt/Usmash. Additionally, Jab 1 can also potentially lead into a Uthrow for an easy kill. Then there's Fair and Shadowball for other kill moves. LASTLY, Jab 1 can also lead into Disable against an unsuspecting opponent, which can make them eat a fully charged Smash attack.

Confusion is surprisingly an incredibly potent special this time around. Including the setups mentioned earlier, it is the only reflector in the game that is also a grab as well. And it is quite fast too. And it works kind of like how Mario's cape used to work, only better. The endlag is a bit punishable but it is really solid otherwise. Mewtwo's specials in general are fantastic, although Disable is slightly niche but it still has its uses.

His problems are his low health, and being vulnerable to opponents directly below him or behind him. When above an opponent his landing options are kind of small. Nair and maybe Dair. Most of the time I find it best to teleport away and stick to the ground. And because Dsmash doesn't hit behind him, and Bair is slow on startup, he has to rely on Nair or other tactics when somebody catches him from behind. And his Smashes, while strong, aren't really too useful besides Usmash. Usmash is great for catching larger opponents spotdodging and it is VERY strong, but it'll probably lose a lot of potency on smaller characters.

Small, fast characters are probably going to be his bane. But he can probably handle most other characters with the right amount of skill. He is very high risk, high reward. Probably upper mid tier most likely.


Lastly, Dtilt is godlike, like TTTTTsd said. Use it. Easily one of the best Dtilts in the entire game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All of Mewtwo's tilts are really good at doing their thing and the same applies to pretty much all of his aerials. His entire moveset looks viable but he doesn't really have any particularly good gtfo option because his moves - including jab - are kinda slow on start-up. I seriously doubt that he has the necessary options to deal with a lot of mobile and quickly attacking characters.

His attributes are also downright awful. He's floaty, he's super light and he's ****ing huge. I wouldn't be surprised if like Mii Brawler could legit 0 to death combo Mewtwo with Helicopter Kick jank.

 

[Thinkaman]

Mewtwo

jab frame 6
dash attack ~frame 10?
f-tilt frame 10?
d-tilt frame 6
u-tilt ???

f-smash frame 18
u-smash frame 9?
d-smash ~frame 20?

nair frame 7
fair frame 7

grab frame 8

 

[Yonder]

I agreed this morning when I first played mewtwo in dittos : woah great killpower, setups, jab, throws, etc.
Then I realized that he is lighter than G&W. Lighter than a 2D character. Heavier than a Puff of air though, great.

.

He's lighter than freakin' Game and Watch?! No way.

 

[Smog Frog]

isn't mewtwo one of the more mobile characters himself? he has a high air and run speed, on top of WOOP WOOP.

 

[Teshie U]

Yikes, his frame data is worse than I thought. I was hoping dtilt would be disgustingly fast.

He feels alot like ganondorf to me. As silly as that sounds, I just feel the same struggles and strengths with him so far. He has some nasty shield pressure and a command grab that can lead (and read) into his most dangerous options. His frame data makes him struggle up close with no really quick moves. Hopefully I won't feel so helpless chasing fast characters with him since I have shadow ball.

I feel extremely dominant when I have the advantage in a juggle or edgeguard, but I'm saying a prayer when its the other way around.

Confusion is kind of godlike though. The option coverage of a command grab that reflects is crazy useful vs some characters. I've been told is negative on hit, but does anyone have a guaranteed punish on mewtwo for landing confusion?

 

[Blobface]

Confusion is kind of godlike though. The option coverage of a command grab that reflects is crazy useful vs some characters. I've been told is negative on hit, but does anyone have a guaranteed punish on mewtwo for landing confusion?

I can't think of any moves that are fast enough on startup and have enough range to hit mewtwo out of confusion.

 

[Thinkaman]

I can't think of any moves that are fast enough on startup and have enough range to hit mewtwo out of confusion.

I tested this extensively with everything I could think of. I got nothing.

 

[Teshie U]

I can't think of any moves that are fast enough on startup and have enough range to hit mewtwo out of confusion.

If I had to guess, I'd assume Kong Cyclone or Lucario Dair might do the trick.

Might be a good few up B attacks that could scoop him up from that distance and speed. Little Mac maybe?

 

[Shaya]

So asides from Marth (and probably Lucina) getting dancing blade fixes, no other changes for the hero king.
While Lucina's damage on some moves have been buffed.
A slight disappointment from expectations, the patch has brought Lucina more into line with Marth rather than buffing their "kits".

Although dancing blade is pretty big, if it's comboing properly again I'm sure we'll be pretty happy, that would prob put Marth outside of low tier realistically. This move kills and deals 15%. As a heavy bread and butter move we've had to ignore due to it's lack of functionality, we really can't say how much we'll be gaining out of this.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Thinkaman

Mewtwo's preliminary frame data, collected in training mode by setting speed to 1/4 (Hold L) and having both parties do their input while frozen. The table here was used to check existing frame data and tests were run until attacks traded or clashed.

Jab: F6
Dash Attack: F10
Forward Tilt: F10
Up Tilt: F8
Down Tilt: F6
Forward Smash: F19
Up Smash: F9
Down Smash: F21 (Note: Explosion graphic occurs on F20.)
Grab: F7
Dash Grab: F9
Pivot Grab: F10
Neutral Air: F7
Forward Air: F7
Back Air: F13
Up Air: F10
Down Air: F15

That F9 usmash in particular is wow. Jab and dtilt being tied for Mewtwo's fastest button is mildly interesting too. And according to the data, Mewtwo officially has the slowest dsmash in the game, 1 frame behind ZSS.

I'm not sure exactly how disjointed Mewtwo's tail is for any of this.

 

[Thinkaman]

data

Someone posted this data in the patch thread:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...wju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=1937605207

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Someone posted this data in the patch thread:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...wju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=1937605207

Welp that's an hour wasted. And I was so pleased with myself too.

EDIT: Wait, is Confusion -5 on hit?

 

[Thinkaman]

EDIT: Wait, is Confusion -5 on hit?

Yeah, I can confirm. No one can hit Mewtwo though, before he can block. The game's fastest aerials aren't even close to reaching. (Diddy uair is probably closest?)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah, I can confirm. No one can hit Mewtwo though, before he can block. The game's fastest aerials aren't even close to reaching. (Diddy uair is probably closest?)

Well that's...something, I guess. Better than Melee at any rate, I think some characters could smack him in the face for free.

My main worries were Diddy, Sheik, and Mega Man TBH.

EDIT: Luma could probably get an easy punish but that seems to be a running theme with command grabs vs. Rosalina.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well that's...something, I guess. Better than Melee at any rate, I think some characters could smack him in the face for free.

The reflect ratio has been buffed significantly from Melee as well.

 

[19_]

I said I wouldn't do this again but it stink if people forgot that shockwave is tonight. Day one patch tournament hopefully.
And Mewtwo if tloc is full of evil geniuses but I doubt it.