Character Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

A Frame 21 one-sided Dsmash has to have some kind of good point to it. Brawl Zamus's Dsmash was safe on block as well. It just seems to be a trend for Dsmashes like that.

Lucas's Dsmash is multi-hit, which is supposedly its good point. Robin's Bronze Dsmash is one-sided because the Robin's an idiot for using Bronze Dsmash.

 

[Balgorxz]

Yay, something easier to do than Falco's Fire Slide... So, Mewtwo's vengeance, eh? Also, it's from the Zelda Social aka the sassy and classy other-Character Competitive Impressions thread.

Can someone tell me since when protoman mii gunner had such a strong auto cancel slide, its ridiculous.

 

[Anomilus]

For those who want to see what Mewtwo plays like and some basic tips, here's a video I worked on to show you guys & gals whom either don't have access to him yet, or aren't sure you want to buy him yet:

Hopefully that gives those asking a lot about Mewtwo in this thread some info, so we can all at least be on equal footing when it comes to knowing what he's like in Smash 4. Cheers

Sorry if it was already in the video, I'd watch the whole thing but I'm literally dozing off in front of my laptop and need to go to bed...

Mewtwo's short-hop DAir's landing lag is cancelable by using it the instant Mewtwo leaves the ground. Managed to combo into Up Smash on somebody this way.

 

[mimgrim]

Can someone tell me since when protoman mii gunner had such a strong auto cancel slide, its ridiculous.

Since always.

But it is much easier to do with c-stick set to attack rather then Smash because the Smash quirk with the c-stick really affects this tech.

 

[Balgorxz]

Since always.

But it is much easier to do with c-stick set to attack rather then Smash because the Smash quirk with the c-stick really affects this tech.

well I'll have fun doing usmash half across the stage with him from now on.
anyways if everyone knows this then why is no one using gunner, his ftilt has insane range with the slide since carries all the momentum, don't get me started with the usmash since you can combine jumpcancel usmash with the autocancel slide to get pretty much a better DACUS.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah.

Also, Confusion beats super armor. It counts as a grab.

Hmm... I wonder how this would fare against Kong Cyclone... Nah, strict timing probably, but not as strict as Warlock Punching DK.

 

[Terotrous]

I think a useful discussion to have would be to create a list of characters who were basically decent but had horrible matchups vs Diddy pre-patch, as they have implicitly been greatly buffed and are now potential metagame threats.

Off the top of my head, I know and , though there's likely a lot more.

 

[Ffamran]

Can someone tell me since when protoman mii gunner had such a strong auto cancel slide, its ridiculous.

The images are broken for me, so I can't see this awesome slide. Heheh, Gunnar Slide. Sponsor us, Gunnar Optiks!

Regarding characters with bad MUs against Diddy, I can only think of Rosalina which was stated before already. Falco from the looks of it and that was early with Keitaro's Falco against various Diddys, I don't think Falco ever had a problem with Diddy aside from barely anyone uses Falco which would lead to 1. Falco being unfamiliar for Diddys, so there's a slight unfair edge for Falco or 2. Falco legitimately does fine against Diddy, but nobody bothered to study or notice the MU.

 

[Thinkaman]

Sheik can fair Mewtwo out of Confusion, forcing him to powershield. Nothing too crazy--lots of characters can challenge Mewtwo with a fast aerial, and eat major pain badly if he shields.

But Sheik fair is the fastest auto-cancelling ability in the game, and she uniquely can challenge Mewtwo and shield immediately.

Mewtwo can only get jab, d-tilt, or u-tilt in response, instead of something meatier.

Note that can CANNOT grab Sheik in this situation. Sheik is still immune, shielding is completely safe.

 

[Yonder]

I think a useful discussion to have would be to create a list of characters who were basically decent but had horrible matchups vs Diddy pre-patch, as they have implicitly been greatly buffed and are now potential metagame threats.

Off the top of my head, I know and , though there's likely a lot more.

ROB lost his kill throw [U throw] which is saddening.

Anyways, now that Diddy is no longer the best, who will reign dominance? I'm guessing Sheik, followed by Rosalina [her Luma took an HP nerf, right?], then ZSS, the rest is up in the air. Probably Sonic right after, despite losing his B throw. After would be Diddy Kong, Luigi is still up there since he only received a fireball damage nerf.

Bowwser in particular got a big buff, probably the biggest with increased knockback on everything. It's noticeable, I was killing with throw that normally never did. I'd watch out, he's probably the best heavyweight now thanks to it, with DK close behind since he got some buffs in the form of a faster fair and dair I think along with a slightly shorter charge up time for the giant punch. DDD didn't much and I think Charzard got nerfed...lol. I still think Charizard is pretty bad character in this game, even from first impressions on the first few days I said to myself "He's not too good".

Also, I think Mewtwo is a mid tier. Being 2nd lightest is ridiculous while being big too, but has some fantastic range [especially looking at you ...all his tilts] and KO power is alright [FEAR THE SHADOW BALL NOW] confusion is really useful now, and I bet people will find ways to lead into disable which would help a lot. And his recovery s still fantastic, go as deep as you want to edgeguard basically!

 

[Shaya]

"everyone's good"

Rosalina may be an issue in the customs meta though.
But otherwise, when most people were putting Diddy/Sheik a tier above the rest, and most characters worst match ups were against these two, we're now looking at what's going to be a pretty stacked upper tier of good characters:

..

If I were to guess what Sakurai's internal tier list was, it would be something like:




(maybe just next to Diddy Kong, if the Link main funeral is any indication)
..(A LOT OF CHARACTERS)..




Honestly, this is going to be interesting.
I don't think Sonic's nerfs were critical enough to truly hurt him, especially in customs meta.
Sheik's dtilt probably now combos into something that kills even better than it did before; functionally she wasn't changed. Bair to bair to bair probably works now for all we know. Lack of needle changes is what's going to allow her to maintain quite a bit of her menacing tendencies, but that bair hit could be a lot worse than I give it credit for.
Pikachu's two worst match ups (IMO) just got culled, and the other girl in that basket was ZSS. Ledge nerf hurts Pika in some ways, but it isn't going to be overtly noticeable.
Loves the Diddy nerfs. Sheik may start to creep into her favour by some people's standards now (although time out sheik probably wins :<)
Luigi got tapped lightly on the shoulder if we're to consider nothing else. His "niche" for Diddy may have just been hit though, we'll see.
Diddy could be a lot weaker with customs off than before, I think it'll have more to do with any fair hitbox changes whether he's especially blasted, because otherwise he'll still have insanely good option spread with a good deal of underappreciated options. We're going to be seeing a big shift within 2 weekends I think on whether this character is still "real" or not, I'm pretty sure we're going to see an exodus either way.
Falcon being mostly untouched worries me, I still don't really know what this guy loses to. I never really bought Sheik being a counter with the kill power discrepancy, the match up probably won't change too much from this though. Looking forward to more FULLY COOL SICK HYPE FUN FAST GAMEPLAY OF JABS, BACK AIRS AND GRABS, YEAH YEAH YEAH.
Fox who I was calling as third not too long ago... probably looking even better, but I won't be proclaiming Melee 2.0 yet. Mixed reports on his jab, but most say it still functions the same as before, meaning yay for ABUSE.
Ness, who everyone has practically forgotten about. Untouched... yuck. Kill the back throw and buff everything else, I'd be fine with it, BUT NO. Really underrated here most likely as a sneaky return.
Rosalina has come out really unscathed. Fortunately only one player in the world has any idea on what to do with her right?

Yada yada, I think realistically Sheik, Sonic, Fox are going to be top 5 still. Rosalina is going to be looking a lot better too, likely sneaking in as well. For 5th I'm not sure, it could be Diddy, Falcon, ZSS or Pikachu in my opinion.

KIRBY IS THE DARK HORSE.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sonic's bthrow nerf is actually huge. If DI actually has been buffed then it'll probably cease to be a kill move before like ... 150% with rage or something? I think Sonic was nerfed harder than Sheik. I'm currently having Sheik, Fox and Yoshi as top 3.

 

[Shaya]

I know you've always loved Yoshi and Japan, but their offline results have been poor and otherwise I don't think that get up attack buff was that huge.
Why do you think Yoshi's top 3?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Smash 4 secretly is in the hands of Kirby and Pit.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If we're making crazy predictions I'll make one. I don't think Diddy Kong is a top 10 character with these nerfs. The core reason he was good was that he combined speed and kill power; his kill power is drastically nerfed to the point that he's perhaps one of the worst characters at killing now. His fundamentally pretty good neutral will keep him out of low tier probably, but I struggle to see this character as anything special anymore.

So with this patch I got a sucky Diddy and a sucky long-awaited Mewtwo. GREAT GOING SAMURAI!

 

[Quickhero]

So with this patch I got a sucky Diddy and a sucky long-awaited Mewtwo. GREAT GOING SAMURAI!

I think you're being a bit dramatic, Diddy didn't get nerfed to suck tier and tbh he's still easily top tier. His nerfs are minor and well done, and Diddy Kong still has it great. Easily top 10. Try haahaa (U-Throw to U-air) btw, it actually works quite well.

 

[Balgorxz]

The images are broken for me, so I can't see this awesome slide. Heheh, Gunnar Slide. Sponsor us, Gunnar Optiks!

Regarding characters with bad MUs against Diddy, I can only think of Rosalina which was stated before already. Falco from the looks of it and that was early with Keitaro's Falco against various Diddys, I don't think Falco ever had a problem with Diddy aside from barely anyone uses Falco which would lead to 1. Falco being unfamiliar for Diddys, so there's a slight unfair edge for Falco or 2. Falco legitimately does fine against Diddy, but nobody bothered to study or notice the MU.

gifycat is broken, so imgur time

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Diddy's nerfs are far from minor. Now that he can't kill everybody for free at ~100% stuff like his recovery being exploitable actually becomes a factor. Before the patch he could kinda just bypass it by killing his opponents before they could even get to use his weaknesses to their advantage in the first place. This time he'll have to actually fight his opponents.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

gifycat is broken, so imgur time

Been the same since release though?

 

[Antonykun]

I have the opposite opinion. I think the change to dtilt really opened up a lot of options for swordfighter. Dtilt can combo into itself at low % + rage, into grab, and then into fair at mid percents. That's an easy 18-25%, ~18% for dtilt to fair and ~25% for dtilt->dthrow->uair. The nair buff allows for combos into dtilt at low percent, too.

The nair buff allows for much safer landings and some low % combos, but I find it difficult to combo much, unless I land with it at low percents, though it's better as an aerial spacer than a ground one. Swordfighter *definitely* needed some much needed assistance with landing, so this is still very good since nair was not viable to land with before.

The hero's spin buff is great. Swordfighter now has a really strong OoS kill move that can be charged at the edge.

The A+B set to smash allows for pivot smash reads on Swordfighter's odd high power + speed + endlag fsmash.

Wait wait wait Hero's Spin got buffed? OMG id did!
Anyways I tried some D-tilt combos and they only work at 0-10% at the hilt of the sword don't get me wrong 36% from 2 d-tilts grab and up air is luigi levels of wombo combo but I doubt it will see much use as people start thinking don't get d tilted
Doesn't Hero's Spin come out at some stupidly late frames though?

 

[Radical Larry]

S Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:
D Tier:
E Tier:
F Tier:

Later on I will explain why I chose the above positions.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Radical Larry I don't need to wait for your explanations. Why would you think about posting a tier list the day after not only a new CHARACTER is released, but a balance patch as well?

Also, no need for S-F rank; the differences in character rankings is between S-C(+) rank, with 3 to 4 characters at C(+) at worst.

 

[Balgorxz]

S Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:
D Tier:
E Tier:
F Tier:

Later on I will explain why I chose the above positions.

I like how E tier is better than B tier, it makes it more original.
I mean DK,palutena and Olimar can beat all B tiers on 1v1 and 2v2 easily lol

 

[Thinkaman]

S Tier:

Who are you wand what have you done with Radical Larry?

A Tier:

Never mind, my bad!

Why would you think about posting a tier list the day after not only a new CHARACTER is released, but a balance patch as well?

Yeah man, what kind of raging narcissist would do such a thing?


I want to talk more about Mewtwo. I'm still gathering my thoughts for a big post. I'm much more exited for this character now than I was previously.

 

[Pazx]

@ Radical Larry I don't need to wait for your explanations. Why would you think about posting a tier list the day after not only a new CHARACTER is released, but a balance patch as well?

Also, no need for S-F rank; the differences in character rankings is between S-C(+) rank, with 3 to 4 characters at C(+) at worst.

Disagree with your last statement. IMO pre-patch there were at least 6 tiers (not sure if that's changed), which could be called Top Tier, Great, Good, Limited, Unviable, Low Tier. At this point in the game, the tier lists should be bottom heavy as we know the least about bad characters and how bad they are relative to one another, so having a C tier specifically for Zelda (or whichever 3-4 you imagine) is silly. The vast majority of characters will fit in either Limited, Unviable or Bad. I think S to F with the bottom tier being completely empty at this point in time is probably the best way to imagine things.

 

[san.]

Wait wait wait Hero's Spin got buffed? OMG id did!
Anyways I tried some D-tilt combos and they only work at 0-10% at the hilt of the sword don't get me wrong 36% from 2 d-tilts grab and up air is luigi levels of wombo combo but I doubt it will see much use as people start thinking don't get d tilted
Doesn't Hero's Spin come out at some stupidly late frames though?

You're only getting dtilt to fair or RAR bair at mid %, but that is 15-18% from a frame 5 disjointed tilt. Dtilt is probably the easiest move to hit better players, so it ends up racking damage well.

Hero's spin is around frame 8-9, slightly slower than Link's jab1 when I briefly tested. That is close to most usmashes with the range of a dsmash and quite a lot of power.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo seems to have trouble against Fox's one-two jab loop. The fact that Mewtwo's second jump takes so long means he can't just jump out of it. Dabuz tried numerous DI directions on stream and none of them worked. Maybe Teleport is the answer? It's seriously bad though; Fox can get like 50% off of Mewtwo just by jabbing.

On the flip side, I honestly don't know how Jigglypuff is going to get past Mewtwo's up tilt.

I think Mewtwo feels right in this game in terms of play style. It was all right in Melee, but it didn't have that overwhelming offensive might that is its signature characteristic in Pokemon, and even if it comes at the cost of being much lighter. I think that's fine, in exchange for a properly working confusion, insane range on tilts, more kill moves than you can shake a stick at (Ganondorf has two sticks), and Disable leading into pain.

Seriously, Disable is so good now. Catch an opponent and KO them at 70-80% with a charged Smash?

I also think Mewtwo's shield pressure game is going to be top tier. Other characters have to really work at eating shields, or they have specialized moves that come with unique drawbacks, like the long startup on DK's headbutt, or the fact that Marth/Lucina's Shield Breaker isn't that great on hit uncharged. Shadow Ball fully charged eats shields a good amount (not quite as much as those moves mentioned), with little risk to Mewtwo, who recovers out of the attack remarkably quickly.

I've broken more shields as Mewtwo in a day than I've done with most other characters.

And let's not forget that Disable is basically a mini-shield break.

 

[Cassio]

The discussion on whether the game is more balanced with or without customs is already happening on facebook. Its probably time to have that discussion here as well. Two primary arguments:
1) The game and its balance patches arent balanced (or minimally balanced) around customs, as seems to be the case on the latest update
2) There seems to be no desire to partially ban certain customs, so given the choice between all customs and no customs those in favor of partial bans prefer no customs

These arent my positions, just what I see on FB. This includes two of the biggest customs advocates Ive seen in SoCal and Texas (mostly for reason 2). Im pretty neutral on customs, but pro-keep on testing before we ban stuff.
-----------------------------------

Also, why do people suddenly think Fox is so good? Ditto to yoshi.

Also curious on luigi analysis, Ive seen discussion that he will be the next closest thing to diddy kong, easy to pick up and succeed with. I dont know much about luigi, can he kill from a throw guaranteed?

 

[mimgrim]

well I'll have fun doing usmash half across the stage with him from now on.
anyways if everyone knows this then why is no one using gunner, his ftilt has insane range with the slide since carries all the momentum, don't get me started with the usmash since you can combine jumpcancel usmash with the autocancel slide to get pretty much a better DACUS.

Because Miis are unpopular in general and a lot of places still don't give them the treatment they deserve.

 

[Sinister Slush]

As far as NA is concerned, people are just scrubs and don't know how to punish Yoshi.
Not too sure for EU cause their more prominent Yoshi's are Zude and Slice, both of which don't attend tournaments (though slice attending his first tournament ever this weekend, he didn't even attend anything in brawl days from what I was told)

Japan is tricky on their case. Their Stagelist is only FD Smashville and BF + omegas. I can see Yoshi being good on two of the three stages, but other top tiers excel much better on those stages, especially diddy/sheik on the likes of SV BF and FD which is what confuses me or others like ZSS Fox Sonic.
Aiba appears to be the offline Yoshi to watch and he plays a safe Yoshi that seems to recently be abusing short hop airdodge to nair along with Yoshidora (online counterpart basically lol) and for some reason they almost never get punished for doing it.

Oddly enough though, until a few weeks ago almost all the videos shi-gaming and another japanese channel uploaded were just losses for Yoshi even against characters like Samus. Online or not, Yoshidora/aiba or not.
Tournament results that were posted by others or in the results sub-forum never had Yoshi in the top 8 or 12 for Umebura, so it's still confusing on how Yoshi is top 3 for them while the likes of Villager ZSS and GnW recently can get better placings than Yoshi and still be under him.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Who is above the point of balance, who is at it and who is niche is almost all you want a list to tell you anyways. Its a 53 man cast thats been significantly updated twice in less then a year. As far as practicality goes there is something to appreciate about few divisions, especially when you want at a glance information.

Internally I'm justifying it
S - meta/above balance
A - balance/not necessarily viable/niche
B - underpowered/niche
C - not viable within meta.
Sure could break it down further but who really cares. If I was so sure I'd just list things in order within a tier. Additional tiers only aid for even greater gaps of strength, which are more noticeable as a game ages. At the point you reach 'unviable' the breakdown to 'low tier' is almost redundant.
Pre patch the poster boys would've been.
S - Diddy
A - Pit
B - Kirby or MK
C- MSF

Post patch? Urks. At the moment, if Pikachu, Zss, yoshi, pit, peach, wario, falcon, Diddy, ness,Rosa, fox, sheik are all a problem for your character....damn likely its a C tier character. But who cares about a D, if you're walled out of relevancy against S and A threats,probably going to stop paying much attention to the character anyways to start going in "just how much worse" that character is with any fairness. On the big stage, I'd just replace Diddy for Rosa till the dust settles and keep pit representing A.

 

[Conda]

Bowwser in particular got a big buff, probably the biggest with increased knockback on everything. It's noticeable, I was killing with throw that normally never did. I'd watch out, he's probably the best heavyweight now thanks to it, with DK close behind since he got some buffs in the form of a faster fair and dair I think along with a slightly shorter charge up time for the giant punch. DDD didn't much and I think Charzard got nerfed...lol. I still think Charizard is pretty bad character in this game, even from first impressions on the first few days I said to myself "He's not too good".

There were no knockback buffs to Bowser. Please make sure changes are confirmed before you speak about them here, as they can be misleading to others as you could expect.

 

[webbedspace]

1) The game and its balance patches arent balanced (or minimally balanced) around customs, as seems to be the case on the latest update

This argument really feels like circular reasoning. It reads to me as: "Customs are unbalanced, AND this patch didn't balance them, THEREFORE customs are unbalanced." (Other things that weren't balanced by this patch include: a third of the cast.)

And, the middle point is technically untrue given the Order Tackle fix (and who knows, maybe some tweaks to other customs will show up soon).

 

[Cassio]

There's a lot of implicit points within the statement. Obviously we assume that characters that weren't balanced didn't have a strong need to be. Can the same be said of customs? This question is what pro-custom advocates need to find an answer for. Im certain custom-off advocates will also point to Sakurai's statement from way back when about the game not being balanced around customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

The discussion on whether the game is more balanced and varied with or without customs is already happening on facebook. Its probably time to have that discussion here as well. Two primary arguments:
1) The game and its balance patches arent balanced (or minimally balanced) around customs, as seems to be the case on the latest update
2) There seems to be no desire to partially ban certain customs, so given the choice between all customs and no customs those in favor of partial bans prefer no customs

These arent my positions, just what I see on FB. This includes two of the biggest customs advocates Ive seen in SoCal and Texas (mostly for reason 2). Im pretty neutral on customs.

I really don't care which is more balanced (as long as it's within reason still). If you took MK out of brawl, it'd be more balanced than melee by far but still nowhere near as fun to watch or play for a huge majority.

But the argument that the game "isn't balanced around customs" is silly. Customs don't change the entire game, or character. They don't effect overall movement, pressure and neutral options, they're just different specials. And every patch -does- balance customs.

I share the sentiment that many customs probably should be nerfed. Mostly the mid/low risk high reward killing upbs that polarize characters playstyles around abusing those.

But the fact is, the major long-term issues of customs in regards to balance were addressed, only the recent ones were left untouched. There's little doubt in my mind that post-evo or when we get lucas/another character there will be more tweaks to customs and characters overall. (further concreting the theory that ASAP was the best time to implement customs in our meta)

There's a lot of implicit points within the statement. Obviously we assume that characters that weren't balanced didn't have a strong need to be. Can the same be said of customs? This question is what pro-custom advocates need to find an answer for. Im certain custom-off advocates will also point to Sakurai's statement from way back when about the game not being balanced around customs.

The answer to that question is yes. Only customs proven to be problematic on a wide-range scale since the last patch were balanced.

 

[Radical Larry]

One thing you guys need to know; I just posted a tier list as a joke tier list, basically something in response to people making their own tier lists without knowledge of the game yet. Like I would honestly make a legitimate claim for a tier list as early as now. Secondly, if I were to make a tier list, it wouldn't be close to that.

 

[Cassio]

The question is yes. Only customs proven to be problematic on a wide-range scale since the last patch were balanced.

Some do not agree

and back and forth "'Nu uh!' 'Uh huh!'" 's are not gonna do it. Again these were big influential advocates for customs pre-patch. Youll need to know the problem customs and have a substantial response that amounts to more then "yes they are" when its suggested they arent balanced.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The discussion on whether the game is more balanced with or without customs is already happening on facebook. Its probably time to have that discussion here as well. Two primary arguments:
1) The game and its balance patches arent balanced (or minimally balanced) around customs, as seems to be the case on the latest update

This isn't true. Order tackle was fixed, and at least one other custom got changed. Sure, they didn't nerf Kong Cyclone or Trip Sapling, but they also didn't nerf Quick Attack or Boost Kick, defaults which trivially fall into the "oh my god ban this filth" camp - or at least, would if they were customs. In fact, the list of things they didn't adjust which they probably should have is pretty long. (ness Bthrow? ZSS Uair? Rosalina Uair? Zelda fair/bair? The list just keeps going.) It's really, really unfair to claim that just because they didn't nerf custom hobby-horse du jour (none of which have ever won a noteworthy tournament), they didn't care about the balance of customs. Speaking of which...

2) There seems to be no desire to partially ban certain customs, so given the choice between all customs and no customs those in favor of partial bans prefer no customs

This is also not true. Nobody is in principle against banning broken customs. Hell, my last tournament had Order Tackle banned for teams, because of the glitch. What we're saying is that the correct time to ban something is when it seems to be broken. And most of the usual suspects? They aren't. People are destroying DKs who do nothing but spam Kong Cyclone. Jumbo Hoops is phenomenally laggy and fairly easy to roll past, and the comparison to MK's Brawl Tornado is apt, except that the rest of WFT's kit is kind of terrible, and we didn't ban that either. Hell, it took AA about an hour in the lab to completely demolish the villager ledgestall strategy. I have yet to see any of these characters take a noteworthy tournament. If these weren't customs, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Or, to put it another way, Cody and Dustin are gigantic scrubs. That's really all there is to it.

Also curious on luigi analysis, Ive seen discussion that he will be the next closest thing to diddy kong, easy to pick up and succeed with. I dont know much about luigi, can he kill from a throw guaranteed?

Yeah. Free.

 

[Thinkaman]

The idea that customs make 1.0.6 less balanced is so mind-boggling to me that I don't even know where to begin addressing it. I just can't take is seriously.

It's like some bizzaro world, where we are dominated by Palutena, WFT, heavies, and Duck Hunt.

 

[Cassio]

Mind boggling or not, its going to be what pro-custom advocates will need to address to maintain support (of course, in the opinions read it seems to come down to a couple customs polarizing the game in reading the criticisms moreso then how they may lift bad characters). Cody was the #1 advocate of customs in SoCal and you can see his thoughts on it now.
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If Luigi can guarantee throw to KO, why isnt he in everyone's top 3? Im pretty sure hes the only character that can do that now at a reasonable percent except for like Ness, and he also gets a ton of damage from throws as well.