Character Competitive Impressions

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Dabuz Are there any notable characters that Mewtwo does well against so far? I was watching you on stream against that Fox but had to leave soon after.

 

[Dabuz]

He feels pretty solid against current Diddy, Bowser also seems evenish for him. Luigi is actually a struggle though. I didn't get a chance to dig into his other MUs against competitive players.

 

[Terotrous]

About 4 or 5 people have already mentioned in this thread that Fox is a likely hard-counter to Mewtwo. It's definitely not just you lol

I've mentioned before that I think Fox vs Yoshi is pretty even and that Fox is a good character in general, but a lot of people were like "no, that's just you, Fox sux lol", so I wanted to make sure.

 

[Dabuz]

People think Fox is bad? O_O;; He's like sooooooo good....(good thing Rosa can infinite him :3 )

 

[Terotrous]

To be fair that was a couple months ago, we seem to be getting to the point where most people recognize that Fox has a lot of good stuff.

Still, I couldn't totally discount the possibility that maybe I just really don't know how to fight Fox.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox has pretty much always been agreed to be like A-Tier by most people. I don't think he's even with Yoshi though.

Nobody really underrates Fox anymore [if anybody ever did]. If there one upper tier character that nobody seems to know about it's Wario. The japenese are the only ones who seem to understand how good that character is.

 

[TheZyzyva]

People think Fox is bad? O_O;; He's like sooooooo good....(good thing Rosa can infinite him :3 )

People think a lot of dumb things...
So overall, you care to give your opinion on the patch? Do the Shiek nerfs drop her at all? And does 4HP actually do anything to Luma? Simply curious.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Rosalina has an infinite on Fox? I know she does an asston of damage to him (and fastfallers/fatties in general I guess) with rapid jab but an infinite?

EDIT: @ TheZyzyva I've actually noticed Luma dying to raw damage more in the past 24 hours than in the past...oh, I'd say month or so, but that could easily be my memory playing tricks on me so take with salt.

 

[Djent]

Of course loses to because foxes >> cats.
So I guess we also know he beats and that ...could go either way.

I think will have the same problem that she always does, namely a few horrible MUs and a mostly good spread otherwise. This time around I think is particularly bad (watch Saiya vs. Kie...ouch ). I don't see her cracking into S (if it even still exists) or A tier realistically, but I imagine she's a solid contender for B. I'm still curious to see how she does vs. cuz she secretly pooped on him in Brawl.

I'm also still waiting for to show that (s)he is every bit as frustrating as if not moreso. What is it with the gender-flexible longrange camper archetype in this game anyway? I think these two will be the premier pelters now that and (who was borderline already) have lost item-in-hand attacks.

 

[Terotrous]

As for Link, I think his biggest problem is that his entire metagame since launch has been based around bugs, first the item throw landing lag cancel, then the jab cancel infinite and holding item C-Stick attack tricks. It's pretty clear that the developers will remove anything they deem to be a bug regardless of how it impacts the metagame (except the Lightweight bug but we won't get into that now). Unfortunately, we haven't really had a chance to see how Link fares with no bugs. It looks like it's going to be "pretty bad", but if so hopefully he'll get buffs when Lucas comes out.

 

[Macedonian]

so with the hoo ha gone nerfed, sonic nerfed, and one of shieks best kill move gone, im starting th think pikachu might be the best charachter, good combos, good recovery. and good kill move with the upsmash. is there anythinng realy holding Pika back at this point?

 

[Terotrous]

so with the hoo ha gone, sonic nerfed, and shieks best kill move gone, im starting th think pikachu might be the best charachter, good combos, good recovery. and good kill move with the upsmash. is there anythinng realy holding Pika back at this point?

Hoo haw isn't gone (it's just weaker) and Bair wasn't Sheik's best kill move, but Pika is still looking solid in any case.

 

[Flamecircle]

As for Link, I think his biggest problem is that his entire metagame since launch has been based around bugs, first the item throw landing lag cancel, then the jab cancel infinite and holding item C-Stick attack tricks. It's pretty clear that the developers will remove anything they deem to be a bug regardless of how it impacts the metagame (except the Lightweight bug but we won't get into that now). Unfortunately, we haven't really had a chance to see how Link fares with no bugs. It looks like it's going to be "pretty bad", but if so hopefully he'll get buffs when Lucas comes out.

He needs buffs, really. He wasn't great before, but now losing jab confirms? That's utterly terrible and sad.

 

[Emblem Lord]

As for Link, I think his biggest problem is that his entire metagame since launch has been based around bugs, first the item throw landing lag cancel, then the jab cancel infinite and holding item C-Stick attack tricks. It's pretty clear that the developers will remove anything they deem to be a bug regardless of how it impacts the metagame (except the Lightweight bug but we won't get into that now). Unfortunately, we haven't really had a chance to see how Link fares with no bugs. It looks like it's going to be "pretty bad", but if so hopefully he'll get buffs when Lucas comes out.

Seems like the Link forums/community needs to learn fundamentals instead of trying to be gimmicky. His neutral game honestly damn solid.

 

[Terotrous]

Seems like the Link forums/community needs to learn fundamentals instead of trying to be gimmicky. His neutral game honestly damn solid.

Oh boy, this is going to get ugly.


I actually think he has alright fundamentals too, you really can't go wrong with low-endlag projectiles and decent pokes, but it may not be quite enough for him to compete with the best without a little bit of extra help. Luckily, if even Kirby can get some solid buffs there's hope for anyone.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm also still waiting for to show that (s)he is every bit as frustrating as if not moreso. What is it with the gender-flexible longrange camper archetype in this game anyway? I think these two will be the premier pelters now that and (who was borderline already) have lost item-in-hand attacks.

Sorry, what? You think Mega Man's item-in-hand attacks are that important to his defensive game?


I will have to say, item-in-hand attacking looked suave. Give Mega Man a beam sword, and then item-tilt. Looks natural as he's holding the sword in his off hand while shooting. And item-in-hand fsmash with Mega just looked awesome, although rarely used.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Link really doesn't seem bad at all. He has a pretty solid ground game which is like 90% if what a character needs to get the job done. Samus, Swordfighter and Lucina had [and maybe still have] terrible ground games - it's not a coincidence that those three were the bottom 3 before the patch.

 

[Terotrous]

We were discussing Mewtwo frame speed on GF, and I think it's worth noting that due to Mewtwo's slow attacks, he's one of the worst characters in the game after a clank. Virtually the entire cast can put out a move before he can. Block will usually be his best option, but of course that just gives them to option to grab. You can DTilt to keep them honest, but that will lose to most jabs. Basically the opponent can just hit jab for free if their Jab 1 has 5f startup or better and is -7 or better on shield, or they can attempt a grab if they think they have the read.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison at all...



This is not true. Order tackle glitch is gone, and at least one Zelda DownB custom was changed. There may be more, there just hasn't been too many people looking at them.

Nothing majorly important regarding balance was changed. I didn't specify because I was lazy.

 

[Terotrous]

Nothing majorly important regarding balance was changed. I didn't specify because I was lazy.

The main thing is that the hitbox / timing changes generally haven't been applied. At best the customs get bugfixes, and even then generally only when they concern artefacts, which are likely shared between the defaults and customs.

Seriously though, this should be in the Rules thread. This thread is about character viability, not metagame viability.

 

[Ffamran]

Make him Mario's weight and he would be really good, not top tier, but approx. where people tend to put Olimar. Solo-main status depends entirely on if he has an awful MUs with popular characters.

Lore-wise, isn't Mewtwo supposed to be close to Bowser's weight? If I remember what someone said correctly, Mewtwo's heavier than Charizard in Pokémon.

Of course loses to because foxes >> cats.
So I guess we also know he beats

Brosif, have you not watched Looney Tunes? Tweety wrecked Sylvester and any other cat. Ain't no cool cat can touch Tweety.

Falco would be an interesting MU since he hits quickly while doing a lot of damage and knockback while Mewtwo has disjoints, range, and raw power.

 

[Nobie]

This is day 2 Mewtwo so this is theorycrafting to the Nth degree, but what do people think about Mewtwo vs. Little Mac? The initial impression is that Little Mac loves the fact that Mewtwo is basically a large punching bag that's also light as a feather, but Mewtwo also has some decidedly anti-Mac qualities, like a ranged command grab that pops him up into the air, a vicious juggling game, and some ridiculous edge guarding.

 

[deepseadiva]

Mewtwo also has some decidedly anti-Mac qualities, like a ranged command grab that pops him up into the air, a vicious juggling game, and some ridiculous edge guarding.

This is basically everyone in the cast +/- a command grab. Not to downplay the importance of a special grab against Mac (which is fairly important since he dies to those). I'm just saying there's a lot of characters that have most of those counter-qualities, and still weigh more than G&W. :X

 

[Terotrous]

Mac has like, zero reason to respect Mewtwo's shield ever. 8 frame OOS with bad range? FSmash FSmash FSmash.

 

[Nobie]

Mac has like, zero reason to respect Mewtwo's shield ever. 8 frame OOS with bad range? FSmash FSmash FSmash.

Mewtwo's Shield isn't the concern for Mac, at least from my initial impression. It's the fact that Confusion ignores super armor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Seems like the Link forums/community needs to learn fundamentals instead of trying to be gimmicky. His neutral game honestly damn solid.

I don't get how you reached this conclusion.

Link's game falls apart when you shield outside his Jab range. Literally only has dashgrab and Bomb toss as responses. And his grab reward is awful. Sure he can sorta trap people into getting grabbed alright due to Bombs and Zair/jab pressure but he only gets chip damage for that. This is before we factor that he has mediocre oos options.

 

[Smog Frog]

can someone explain how mewtwo struggles dealing with pressure? is teleport not good enough to get out of bad situations?

 

[Radical Larry]

People need to learn about using Bombs as very offensive options against opponents, because I find using a Bomb gives you a fast enough time to pull out an aerial of any kind, or if lucky enough, a smash attack or otherwise. Combine the attack with the Hero's Bow after throwing a bomb, one of the two, if not both, will hit.

It's about timing and spacing Link properly that makes him at the least bit, viable. Link is a very good character that needs to have people learn how he really plays to master him.

I'm going to test all combos for Link with his D-Throw and U-Throw.

 

[David Viran]

Hoo haw isn't gone (it's just weaker) and Bair wasn't Sheik's best kill move, but Pika is still looking solid in any case.

I would say sheik's bair was her most reliable kill move.

 

[Nobie]

I would say sheik's bair was her most reliable kill move.

We saw that Lucario was kind of an issue for Sheik pre-patch. Is this going to skew that matchup way in favor of Lucario?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Fox has pretty much always been agreed to be like A-Tier by most people. I don't think he's even with Yoshi though.

Nobody really underrates Fox anymore [if anybody ever did]. If there one upper tier character that nobody seems to know about it's Wario. The japenese are the only ones who seem to understand how good that character is.

After watching S!C just demolish Cyanide's Luigi, I gotta say that there's probably something to that. Like, he at least counters Luigi pretty hard, and that counts for something. Maybe I should pick him up, Luigi has been the bane of my existence since the start of the Munich Ranbats.

 

[Jaxas]

I would say sheik's bair was her most reliable kill move.

Yeah, Sheik has a bunch of kill setups, but if you miss the windows for them and you have to land just a raw kill-move, Bair was your move.
Bouncing Fish works (but is WAY more of a commitment), and the other option is land a raw Uair or get the opponent to 170+ and Ftilt.

Doable, but Bair will be missed. At least it adds to the kill-setups list, though.

Edit:

We saw that Lucario was kind of an issue for Sheik pre-patch. Is this going to skew that matchup way in favor of Lucario?

The 'correct' way to play this was to time-out anyways, it's just that no one likes doing that. It won't change that front, and if you're trying to kill Lucario you're absolutely going for the kill-setups anyways. It makes it more difficult, but Bair was never really safe against him at kill% anyways

 

[warionumbah2]

Links mid range game is poor, i notice this more since MK strictly plays mid range. Then you got top tiers with strong options in mid range, he should've gotten his Melee DA back not the new crappy one.

 

[Ffamran]

can someone explain how mewtwo struggles dealing with pressure? is teleport not good enough to get out of bad situations?

Startup might be the issue, but we won't know until the data dump is out and people find the Mewtwo's frame data. So, combined with a fairly large hurtbox, slowish ground moves, and slowish aerials, Mewtwo might have a hard disadvantage.

 

[Smog Frog]

Startup might be the issue, but we won't know until the data dump is out and people find the Mewtwo's frame data. So, combined with a fairly large hurtbox, slowish ground moves, and slowish aerials, Mewtwo might have a hard disadvantage.

i think i read somewhere that its like frame 8. its certainly the fastest teleport move in smash.

 

[Lavani]

Startup might be the issue, but we won't know until the data dump is out and people find the Mewtwo's frame data.

This was linked already.

Teleport vanishes on frame 9 with plenty of ending+landing lag.

 

[Smog Frog]

it only has big lag if you finish in the air. if you teleport on the ground there's little lag. also due to the nature of it being a teleport, you have to read where he lands or you're not going to be able to punish it.

 

[Radical Larry]

So, Link's got the following options in his throws now for D-Throw and U-Throw, some of which are situational and all of which need strict timing down:

D-Throw > F-Tilt (Can Work Twice)
D-Throw > N-Air (Back Hit)
D-Throw > B-Air
D-Throw > Pivoted F-Air
D-Throw > U-Spec
U-Throw > U-Tilt
U-Throw > F-Tilt (If Opponent Dodges)
U-Throw > U-Smash
U-Throw > U-Spec (If Opponent Dodges)

This gives Link an overall better grab game than pre-Patch.

He should've gotten his Melee DA back not the new crappy one.

I beg to differ; you must be using it incorrectly, as there are multiple things it can do:

-Edge-guard opponents off the stage, even in some cases as a meteor.
-Defeat many opponents' aerial attacks.
-Allows Link to hit an opponent from 0% to 43% damage with the D-Air > U-Air combo.
-Allows Link to link up multiple other aerials.
-Allows Link to follow up into his non-meteor portion of the D-Air.
-KOs relatively early with Rage implemented.
-Can KO as early as 60% in the corner blast lines.

All of this can happen if you can time the D-Air right. D-Air's KO power may have been nerfed aside from being a meteor, but it's not at all bad. Link's aerials are some of the better ones in the game and using them properly with all of his gimmicks and techniques will surely pack a helluva punch to the opponent.

 

[warionumbah2]

I beg to differ; you must be using it incorrectly, as there are multiple things it can do.

I don't use Link full stop. His options against characters with strong mid range games are limited(and that's alot of characters).

 

[Jaxas]

@ Radical Larry
DA = Dash Attack, not D-air