Character Competitive Impressions

[KenMeister]

Oh boy, this is going to get ugly.


I actually think he has alright fundamentals too, you really can't go wrong with low-endlag projectiles and decent pokes, but it may not be quite enough for him to compete with the best without a little bit of extra help. Luckily, if even Kirby can get some solid buffs there's hope for anyone.

Link can't even poke though because he lost IASA frames on Jab 1 (techically they're on frame 7 but that's the duration of the move anyway so what's the point? ), so he can't realistically throw it out to mindgame with it or even poke without getting punished thanks to the endlag it has. You guys don't realize how important his jab 1 was. It was his best option in CQC before the patch and now it's one the worst jab 1's in the game.

 

[Cassio]

By the way in relation to patch changes, I think theres an important distinction that needs to be made. This of course is theory but it seems to fit whats happening and Im sure others have thought this as well.

Fixes are either:
1) Glitch patches
2) Balanced patches

1)
The first pays no mind to balance. For that reason you see things like link get nerfed even though he wasnt necessarily a huge threat. Most of the custom changes also seemed to fix glitches as well. We also saw an update I believe for 3ds that addressed glitches but not balance.

After 1.04 changes here have been relatively mild since most of the big, noticable stuff was dealt with (hence significantly less existential crisis over "wheres my DACUS ;_;" etc. on this patch).

2)
Self explanatory, but aside from characters at the bottom and top these changes seem to very subtle. Most of the big changes happened in 1.04, but Diddy slipped by and so his time came with 1.06 (which is why Id disagree with claims he was overnerfed. Maybe he wouldve been nerfed slightly less if his potency was caught by 1.04 but regardless he was nerfed in line with other characters of his strength prior to 1.04).
................................................................................................
Of course this is also why I wonder about customs getting updates. So far the balances seem to be more "glitch fixes", and I dont think customs are as popular in Japan which based on the last two updates seems to be where most updates are based. I could be wrong. EVO should certainly give us some indication since it that doesnt land customs on the radar Im not sure what will short of replacing japan with american smashers.

 

[Pyr]

Of course this is also why I wonder about customs getting updates. So far the balances seem to be more "glitch fixes", and I dont think customs are as popular in Japan which based on the last two updates seems to be where most updates are based. I could be wrong. EVO should certainly give us some indication since it that doesnt land customs on the radar Im not sure what will short of replacing japan with american smashers.

So, in theory, if customs are on the balance radar, we'll get more major changes post Evo due to the lack of widespread use?

 

[Macedonian]

I don't really think nintiendo has any intention to balance customs. [Nor did they even balance them (; ]

They have been untouched for both patches so far except for bugs.

I feel like if they ever had thougt at all about customs being a multiplayer thing they would of had some way to use them in online match making.

And lastly I believe they have done these patches based off how the charachter fits their intended design of the charachter. They never wanted greninja to be as up forward of a bruiser as he was, he was supposed to be a sneaky and opportunistic fighter so they nerfed him to that. If they were going of design I would wager that they never intended for a charachter to be so heavily focused on one move like how diddy was with his Uair. So if they were going to patch somthing like a supper heavy charachter spamming one move that makes it fly across the whole stage most of the map, I feel like odds are it would of happened.

Really balancing customs would take a whole lot more time due to vast amount of them and we know there isn't that many people working on balance, I would be very (pleasantly)suprised to see custom adjustments in a patch.

 

[Twoyears]

Actually they nerfed dragon rush's damage in one of the patches, so if there is something very ridiculous they might do something about it.

 

[Ffamran]

Wall jump tech, yo!

sploosh.gif

It's still strange seeing Mewtwo wall jump, but Mewtwo's legs are almost like a kangaroo's, so yeah... It makes sense. If only Luigi could wall-jump...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Actually they nerfed dragon rush's damage in one of the patches, so if there is something very ridiculous they might do something about it.

Dragon Rush was Charizard's only saving grace though...

 

[Minordeth]

Nintendo balancing customs would take something clearly broken to address. Keep in mind that something being "broken" takes a lot of time in the meta to even determine. There are exceptions, like Akuma in SSF2, but they are few and far between. We would need to demonstrate that a custom is visibly broken, which takes not just tournament appearances, but dominating wins. Remember that "annoying" doesn't equal "broken" (i.e. Kong Cyclone, Trip Sapling).

 

[Lavani]

Wall jump tech, yo!


It's still strange seeing Mewtwo wall jump, but Mewtwo's legs are almost like a kangaroo's, so yeah... It makes sense. If only Luigi could wall-jump...

Thanks Ffamran, totally wasn't working out any kinks before making a post about that here.

So obviously you need a surface to scar jump off of, and it takes quite a bit of extra time to actually wall jump (to my surprise, it was 17 frames before actually jumping off the wall in that gif)...it's possible to connect the fair on certain characters before they can act if you're really on point with your ledge trump, but I'm fairly sure not the entire cast due to fair's hitbox and variable ejection trajectories.

Also full credit to @Locke 06 for bringing up the idea of scar jumping with Mewtwo when I was complaining about his floaty double jump and slow bair making his ledge trumps awkward.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Mewtwo's custom moves are extremely balanced XD

Jk. But for real, my impressions of this update are:
-Mewtwo is a badass
-You gotta play patiently with him though
-He's also not that great in terms of competitive viability (as far as I can tell)
-Diddy might have been nerfed a little too hard, but I mean he's still decent so I guess it's okay.
-WHERE IS TOURNAMENT MODE
-Customs DK is still disgusting (even to a DK main)
-No change to rolls or shields
-Pichu OP plz nerf greninja

 

[Teshie U]

As off topic as it is, I'm also bummed we didn't get tournament mode and miiverse stage. Maybe there will be another update when mewtwo goes public, but I'm guessing we have to wait.

 

[DblCrest]

Wall jump tech, yo!


It's still strange seeing Mewtwo wall jump, but Mewtwo's legs are almost like a kangaroo's, so yeah... It makes sense. If only Luigi could wall-jump...

Villager, Pac Man, Sanic, Megaman and now even Mewtwo.
Kirby's been able to wall jump with the ninja ability in games yet he still can't do it Wii U or Pocket Smash ;.;

 

[Mr. Johan]

Sonic has been walljumping since 2004, makes sense he can do it in Smash. If anything he should have a wall cling too since he can stick to a surface and slide down it too.

Kinda wish every character had either a crawl or a wall jump/cling too. One or the other. It would keep mobility specs consistent in some form or another, at least.

 

[WingedKnight]

Man, Mewtwo is such a strange beast. The more I play as him and come to understand his playstyle the more confusing he becomes. He's got such obvious, enormous pros and cons, and at any given time I can't decide which ones win out and how balanced he is. I'll get my butt handed to me for some sloppy play and then I'll just unleash a combo-storm of damage or land a Dair or Shadow Ball that straight murders the opponent out of nowhere. It's like playing with Ganondorf level power wielded by Mr. Game&Watch on stilts. I don't THINK he's in the lowest levels of the cast...but I don't think he's in the higher levels either. The discrepancy between his advantaged and disadvantaged state is so cavernous that I really don't know how it bodes for his competitive future, for better or worse. The tools are there, the flaws are present, but what will people make with them? I'm stumped as to how he really measures up to the cast. Putting him in the middle feels like a cop out but I really feel like those dramatic pendulum swings of fortune can be just as big a boon as they can a curse, and it almost, somehow, strangely evens out to make a decent character. What's your game, Sakurai?

 

[Terotrous]

can someone explain how mewtwo struggles dealing with pressure? is teleport not good enough to get out of bad situations?

Grounded teleport is basically a slower roll with much more startup and recovery. It's only basically a useful escape in the air.

Obviously we don't even contemplate any other direction for a grounded teleport than straight forward or straight back, unless you want like 50+ frames of recovery as you freefall back to the ground.

I would say sheik's bair was her most reliable kill move.

It's maybe useful as a fallback but it's usually Bouncing Fish or Fair getting the job done.

 

[Nobie]

Thinking about Mewtwo some more, does anyone else here realize how absurd it is that Mewtwo can CHASE AFTER his own fully charged Shadow Ball? No other charge shot character can do that, and combined with Mewtwo's good ground speed it can potentially make for some nasty mixups, similar to how Mega Man's Metal Blade usage. Except, you know, the Metal Blade does 25% and KOs earlier than Samus's Charge Shot.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

Is Mewtwo really that confusing for you guys to grasp?

Come on now.

He is ganondorf with a projectile and safer neutral at the expense of being huge and light.

 

[Terotrous]

lol.

Is Mewtwo really that confusing for you guys to grasp?

Come on now.

He is ganondorf with a projectile and safer neutral at the expense of being huge and light.

I'm pretty sure I posted that earlier.

Actually, I feel that in a lot of ways he's basically like a floatier Ganon who trades survivability for a projectile.

Yup.

 

[WingedKnight]

lol.

Is Mewtwo really that confusing for you guys to grasp?

Come on now.

He is ganondorf with a projectile and safer neutral at the expense of being huge and light.

Doesn't mean that's not a funky combination! Punish-based characters aren't usually so delicate, or so mobile. Having a projectile that punishes that hard is a rare treat, too. He definitely takes a finesse and patient play style to use effectively. I don't think he quite measures up as a solo main compared to the most commonly seen competitive characters, but I think his wealth of options from damage to death gives him an edge over a solid chunk of the cast in the right hands.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He looks fun as hell.

And completely non-competitive

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Had some time to read what's been changed and get some gameplay in with the characters I know.

As a day 1 diddy kong main in brawl, i feel his nerfs are not excessive as they indirectly buff some of his other strengths, namely his combo game. While losing the kill power off fair, nair, and uair obviously hurts overall, his combo game is unreal now. And as far as the damage nerfs go, yes diddy will have to get more solid confirms to get to kill range which is now farther away, but the added ability to followup off of just about everything will partially offset this.

Combined with the fact that most diddy players' banana control is not even close to fully developed at this point we should still expect diddy to be top player in the future meta. The dedicated diddy mains who learn the finer points of banana pressure and trapping will still be terrifying. This is basically how it was in brawl with Diddy being a damage wracking god at advantage with an unbelievable neutral which easily opens people up, but lacking the kill power which would really make it overpowered. Overall I am very pleased with his adjustments, they balanced the character well and actually made him play like he should. I will probably be going back to Diddy as my primary.

Sheik's bair KB nerf is significant but since not much else has really changed (...no change to needles? Srsly?) Sheik will remain top tier as well. When vanish mind games become more advanced Sheik will not miss the killing power of the bair sweet spot too much. As sheik I have always primarily relied on vanish mixups for kills anyway.

Pikachu was a sleeper top tier before the patch and has completely flown under the radar, with no change besides an increase to lag after grabbing the ledge. Pikachu's fantastic aerial combo game, great spacing tools on the ground, respectable kill setups and incredible mobility have all been untouched. With the nerfs to Diddy and Sheik Pikachu is no longer behind the other top tiers in terms of dealing damage and closing stocks, while still blowing them away in terms of mobility and versatility.

Her specials are still the best in the game. Thunderjolt does absolute work as an all-purpose projectile, allowing pikachu to both outcamp those she wants to stay away from and cover the approach to those she wants to rushdown. Pikachus with skilled thunder jolt usage can quickly switch between these two play styles at will.

Thunder is a full screen vertical chase in a can that can kill and lead to followups. It can control space and limit the opponent's options at advantage and in the neutral, especially when b-reversed. B-reversed thunder can be used as a broad option select on stage and a safe and brutal edgeguarding tool offstage. T2 is a heavy hit and Thunder is also surprisingly safe when the bolt hits pikachu.

Quick attack safely punishes, recovers for free, and allows pikachu to warp to advantage in an instant. As several people have said in this thread before, QA is legitimately amazing and is perhaps the best individual button in this game for how it can safely accomplish so many things.

Skull bash is the only special which isn't absurdly useful but custom heavy skull bash gives pikachu insane burst kill power that the opponent has to respect at all times.

My post patch top tier right now is Pikachu, Sheik, Diddy, and perhaps sonic in that order. Although AFAIK sonic was nerfed overall and without a killing throw he probably will not be able to quite keep up with those three. And of course it's been two days so we'll see.

Any thoughts on Ness? I feel he is a very capable character who like Pikachu was largely unchanged due to the fact that his meta has not yet been advanced to the point where people are complaining about it. He may be a sleeper top tier too.

Edit: Was monkey flip's KB reduced? If not that's going to be one of diddy's better kill options.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Any thoughts on Ness? I feel he is a very capable character who like Pikachu was largely unchanged due to the fact that his meta has not yet been advanced to the point where people are complaining about it. He may be a sleeper top tier too.

Ness strikes me as good but one-dimensional. The lack of grab release shenanigans from Brawl I think is his saving grace since he no longer loses outright to, say, Marth. He also seems designed to be easy gimp fodder since an ingame tip explicitly suggests absorbing PK Thunder while he tries to recover.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ness is literally cancer

well

back throw is cancer, but having an above average grab (don't listen to the stupid ness players/mains, they're dumb) and a throw that kills at 110% is really ****ing strong

 

[Shaya]

Ness leans on his back throw crutch a little too hard, making him frustrating to fight. Ness may be arguably the best [dash] grabber in the game right now with Diddy and Sonic's rewards being pushed back. Luigi exists though, obviously, but even then isn't Ness dthrow giving follow ups at most percent?

I think Ness/Luigi probably going to be these niche abusers. They're very very strong because of their grab games, but unlike Diddy and Sonic they don't have the same degree of free dash ins or otherwise really solid approach or neutral games. I would say they're roughly comparable in viability now that Luigi's main pull for Diddy has rescinded.

Also let's try to avoid "literally cancer"; figuratively, virtually... so many better adjectives that don't rub off as "raging".

 

[HeroMystic]

Diddy is still good, guys.

Definitely not Top 5 good, but easily Top 10. I'd put him right next to Falcon/Ness.

 

[Terotrous]

Diddy is still good, guys.

Definitely not Top 5 good, but easily Top 10. I'd put him right next to Falcon/Ness.

Yeah he's still a threat, though he's not nearly as braindead. If you want to kill anyone before 160% you're going to need to make some Smash reads eventually. He's got the tools to make them, though.

 

[Shaya]

Okay, he's got double/triple uairs until much higher percent than before.
He still has arguably the best projectile in the game in Bananas which takes item fundamentals and skills which most players of the character haven't taken in.
Up air -> Up-B works forever. Customs meta turns him into a reliable dthrow uair up-b killer at the same percent as Up Throw->Uair cheese. God forbid he up airs you from under a platform. His Up air is now mostly just a twice as fast start up ZSS up air (and less lag). It's still a bonkers combo breaker at 3 frames that hits below him.

Dthrow and up throw are both going to be setting up in similar ways as before but for even longer percent windows.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Ness strikes me as good but one-dimensional. The lack of grab release shenanigans from Brawl I think is his saving grace since he no longer loses outright to, say, Marth. He also seems designed to be easy gimp fodder since an in game tip explicitly suggests absorbing PK Thunder while he tries to recover.

As I understand the character ness's game plan can be pretty straightforward but the way he goes about doing it can be totally bizarre. He wants to pressure the opponent with projectiles until they either shield to the point where they get grabbed or approach by trying to jump in. In the air ness's mobility is godlike and he can bait mistakes with pk thunder balks and air to air very well with his aerials.

But I don't know how to use his stuff to apply pressure in a way that's really confusing while still keeping all of his best options open like I've seen some Ness players do. So i don't think he's one dimensional, hes just got a very high skill ceiling.

Okay, he's got double/triple uairs until much higher percent than before.
He still has arguably the best projectile in the game in Bananas which takes item fundamentals and skills which most players of the character haven't taken in.
Up air -> Up-B works forever. Customs meta turns him into a reliable dthrow uair up-b killer at the same percent as Up Throw->Uair cheese. God forbid he up airs you from under a platform. His Up air is now mostly just a twice as fast start up ZSS up air (and less lag). It's still a bonkers combo breaker at 3 frames that hits below him.

Dthrow and up throw are both going to be setting up in similar ways as before but for even longer percent windows.

Yeah. Banana's in particular are still really versatile and great if you know how to control them. Diddy can do an aerial with a banana in his hand if you z drop it and then immediately catch it with the aerial input for example.

 

[RonNewcomb]

does anyone else here realize how absurd it is that Mewtwo can CHASE AFTER his own fully charged Shadow Ball? No other charge shot character can do that

Not only can customs Lucario do that, he can have 2 of those projectiles onscreen simultaneously.

 

[Blobface]

I am the only one that feels we don't really have a "concrete" top character yet? There's plenty of candidates of course, but all of them have significant tradeoffs (Pika and Rosa are light, Sheik can't kill, Luigi has trouble getting in). It's not like other games where the top character just plain had everything.

Also, does anyone know what character ZeRo will be maining now? Has he said anything about what character he'll play?

 

[Kenturo]

Anyone have the frame data on min height miis fair? Because the way im testing it looks like its completely safe on shield.

 

[Nobie]

Not only can customs Lucario do that, he can have 2 of those projectiles onscreen simultaneously.

While I definitely missed that, I also think it has a bit of a different function due to the difference in projectile and run speed.

 

[KenMeister]

I am the only one that feels we don't really have a "concrete" top character yet? There's plenty of candidates of course, but all of them have significant tradeoffs (Pika and Rosa are light, Sheik can't kill, Luigi has trouble getting in). It's not like other games where the top character just plain had everything.

Also, does anyone know what character ZeRo will be maining now? Has he said anything about what character he'll play?

I think he mentioned maining Sheik and Falcon, while putting more work into Shulk as a secondary.

 

[webbedspace]

Also, does anyone know what character ZeRo will be maining now? Has he said anything about what character he'll play?

NGL, if he switches off Diddy to Sheik, I'll be kinda sad. His Kong is a beautiful machine whose entertainment value is rivaled only by Nairo's.

...Maybe he'll start playing Falcon when he isn't styling in grand finals? (He won't.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

So apparently I'm the only one thinking that Falcon might be the next one on the top.
Really powerful character with simple tactics, though fairly abusable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik, Pikachu and ZSS **** on him. You cannot be number 1 with 3 counter match-ups.

 

[Radical Larry]

So apparently I'm the only one thinking that Falcon might be the next one on the top.
Really powerful character with simple tactics, though fairly abusable.

Isn't that also Ganondorf, Bowser, Charizard, King Dedede, Ike and Donkey Kong in a nutshell?
Moreover Ganondorf than the other five?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I haven't seen much Pikachu action, so I'll have to think about it more, but about Sheik and Rosalina, both are pretty light so Captain might want to go for trades and he'll ultimately win (Luma might make that one MU troublesome though). Though I don't play any of those four characters so I can't be too sure.



Anyway, my point is:
I don't see any other character being that good (maybe Fox?)
Sheik's nerf on Bair is VERY significant, as now she has a real hard time getting the KO.
Sonic's nerf was huge, too.
Rosalina was never too exceptionally good (she's kinda slow, floaty and juggable, and if she's forced to UpB, she's really weak).
Luigi has a very low mobility, ultimately making him weak to zoning.
Even Falcon can be juggled fairly easy. Difference being his reward for getting a hit is fairly strong, even though he doesn't really struggles to get it given his mobility (and range/speed on most of his moves).
... and that's about it, I think?

Isn't that also Ganondorf, Bowser, Charizard, King Dedede, Ike and Donkey Kong in a nutshell?
Moreover Ganondorf than the other five?

I believe my previous post was poorly worded. My apologies.
Hopefully this one shows my point better.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik, Pikachu and ZSS **** on him. You cannot be number 1 with 3 counter match-ups.

All I really see when it comes to his apparent counter match ups are their apparent featherweights and lack of kill power.
ZSS wouldn't win more than 60:40 IMO. Falcon's back air is like... better than ZSS' moveset. But hey, we can flip kick him every time he tries to recover.
Although tournament results between the two are pretty much going even when it's equally skilled players (Bengals vs Acid for example).

Sheik is the only consistent character we see beating Falcon but it's really hard to quantify why properly. If Falcon can avoid the low-mid percent off stage scenario just once could be what gives Sheik a match loss. But yeah, Sheik Jab > Falcon Jab and needles shut down Falcon's pressure in neutral. No one else has that in the cast, in my opinion.

Pikachu is... really unseen for me to be sure it's a counter.

Either way, I'd say whoever is no.1 in the game right now, they probably have a losing match up somewhere.
I think Fox is a guaranteed top three though. The last "silly abuse" on a top tier is his jab. It's what's separating him from others in my mind by a lot.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Links mid range game is poor, i notice this more since MK strictly plays mid range. Then you got top tiers with strong options in mid range, he should've gotten his Melee DA back not the new crappy one.

You must be using a different definition of mid-range than I'm used to.