Character Competitive Impressions

[mimgrim]

And now you are contradicting yourself again.

Either it is the same move or it isn't. If it isn't used in the same way then it isn't the same move.

And there is so much more difference then just L-canceling.

Have you even consider the possibility that the move isn't meant to be used in the way you think it is?

 

[Signia]

In general, L cancelling is not vital in this game because moves that you would reasonably want to use as air to ground attacks were given autocancel windows. This one was missed, though.

It would certainly would help... the moves that you'd reasonably want to use as air-to-ground could instead be used to closer to the ground if L cancelling were in. Then again I don't know what "vital" is supposed to mean here.

 

[Conda]

So Falco, pretty awesome. And Pac Man - that grab sure is a letdown. And Ness - let's see if he still ends up being easily gimped thanks to the high amount of wind-based and projectile-removing/reflecting moves.

 

[Judo777]

auto canceling is not near as effective as L canceling (which I like because L canceling was BS anyway). You should not ever be allowed to jump directly on top a persons shield with an aerial and be safe and even pressure them for doing so. Sheiks nair has autocancel frames but its still punishable on block (typically with a grab if in range). I also dont believe auto cancels actually do have the same landing frames as not doing anything (could be wrong on this, but i feel its the case, i think it has more obviously).

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm still a big believer in Charizard. Best grab catalyzed with great dash speed and solid throws? Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush are both really great tools. Rock Smash is also nothing to scoff at; rarely does something that wins in such a broad array of situations have such a high reward. (Like Flare Blitz, honestly...) Great jab, good u-smash.

My one complaint is the unreliability of Fly and Rising Cyclone.

 

[Yokoblue]

I think Link has quite the zoning game, and as for a comparison of him and Toon Link, I'll honestly have to tell you that Link is the superior character in multiple ways. Here are the reasons why:

1) Link's recovery is by far superior, as it has more vertical and horizontal distance, as well as less need on momentum due to his faster air speed. As well, his tether is far better, and his bomb jump is also quite useful compared to Toon Link. With Toon Link, he was given Brawl Link's recovery momentum, which effectively nerfed him; also, his recovery move does not carry much distance at all. It's highly advised not to use the Bomb Jump, as you will be stuck in the air, and if you're gimped, better give up now, it'd be no way to recovery as Toon Link.

2) Link's range and zoning are better overall, and some of his attacks are, by far, faster and more powerful than Toon Link's. Link's Dash is a prime example of being better, as it can KO opponents reliably, while on the other hand, Toon Link's Dash covers poor distance and is prime for punishing due to its longer end lag. Toon Link's ranged attacks, namely his specials, are also slower and less reliable than Link's.

3) Air game with Link is actually superior to Toon Link. As another part of the recovery move listing, Link's air game is also better than Toon Link's for a variety of reasons, including power, speed, hitbox and hurtbox placement and the ever-living fact of Toon Link's atrocious D-air, which goes through and meteors others near the beginning now. With Link, he can at least bounce off the others and can get out of D-air in time for recovery, but with Toon Link, they made this nerf to make Toon Link worse in air. Oh, and did I mention Link and Toon Link's air speed buff and nerf respectively? It seems Toon Link's air speed has been nerfed, to where it somewhat matches Luigi's in my eyes.

4) Ground game is far superior with Link. Going with 2, Link's ground game, thanks to his longer ranged attacks, is far better than Toon Link's. I think this one can explain itself as a whole.

5) Meteors and semi-spikes are more abundant with Link. Toon Link has two meteors and a semi-spike, those being his downward attacks; however, Toon Link's D-Smash cannot do an effective semi-spike whatsoever, since it links to the other part of the attack. Then there's Link, who has three (four if you count Meteor Bomb) meteors and a semi-spike; his three meteors are his D-air, D-tilt and Dash attack, while his semi-spike is his D-Smash at the back. If you dash, and hit right near Link's body, it will have a meteor hit and accompanying sound effect.

6) Edgeguarding is much better with Link, due to his longer attacks that can safely hit opponents off the edge; this is more prevalent with his D-smash, D-tilt, dash and F-tilt than any other attack he has. With Toon Link, due to his range, he cannot safely hit an opponent, though at least has the option of the Spin Attack on this.

So, it's safe to say that Link's going to out-match Toon Link, and that Toon Link doesn't seem to deserve his supposed high tier spot. Link trumps him in many ways, and I can admit, Toon Link does have some advantages, but the disadvantages are worth noting.



This happens to me quite a lot. I can actually use Link or Rosalina, and extend my life up to 170% (Rosalina) and 210% (Link), and can get an easy comeback. Rage definitely does help characters, especially since there are some that need it desperately. Quite the good comeback tool, especially with characters like Ganondorf.

I don't think you've played enough with ToonLink. I think it's going to be a really close game. I don't even think the character playstyles are similar now.



I'll address your point and add my opinion:
1) Link recovery is better ? How so ? I can survive as TL in 150% range almost all the time because I can never die unless its a big killing move like a fsmash. The fact that you always have a bomb in hand help a lot with recovery but 3/4 of the time I don't need it at all since his UP-B is godlike. since he is floaty he doesn't fall fast as well. His chain might be smaller than Link's but he still has the better recovery.

2) The biggest advantage TL has over Link is the camping game. I usually counterpick ToonLink against Link player becasue of that. TL can spam projectile way better than Link. Primarily because of the bow and arrow that don't need to charge at all to reach far. Link is also faster so doing SH arrow bomb cancel is faster for him as well. The speed of TL make him able to do a low of follow up to his specials as well. Boomerang into fair is almost a true combo (might be on some) and bomb into up smash or bomb into dash is also really good.

3) I'll give it to you, TL air game is lacking now. His bair can kill now which is a + but it also cannot combo anymore. his forward air is good as follow up from specials or to edgeguard but otherwise its crap. Link also has better priority over a lot of moves.

4) Yes Link ground game is better, but TL is like Jigglypuff, hes almost never on the ground.

5) Metor are better on Link as well. I don't see any metetor beside Dair (into SD) and a semi spike with dsmash. You'll have to explain that better.

6) Link is better but TL also has a grab that kills now (b-throw). Pivot grab edgeguard is now a thing.

I think Link can play the range games against certain character but cannot do it as well as TL does. Link has a better kill potential. I think both of them wont be played the same way (Link more relying on sword and some projectile and the opposite for TL)

 

[mimgrim]

auto canceling is not near as effective as L canceling (which I like because L canceling was BS anyway). You should not ever be allowed to jump directly on top a persons shield with an aerial and be safe and even pressure them for doing so. Sheiks nair has autocancel frames but its still punishable on block (typically with a grab if in range). I also dont believe auto cancels actually do have the same landing frames as not doing anything (could be wrong on this, but i feel its the case, i think it has more obviously).

AC aerials have the same amount of landing lag frames as normally landing does. It might seem different because some characters have different animation of landing lag based on how far they were from the ground, for example Palutena will do a twirl when she lands if she was falling form a certain height or does and AC aerial (like rising SH Bair), but this new animation has IASA frames that make them the same as normal landing lag.

 

[Yokoblue]

One common thing I see here is a lot of characters are "High tier contender"
It seems almost a quarter of the characters are there so I made a list.

Contender for Top or high almost guaranteed ?


We have 17 character here out of 51. Thats 1/3 of the cast. Do you guys agree with the potential of all of these ?

 

[SonicZeroX]

You're forgetting the best character

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Too many relevant characters bully Ness's recovery.
Bowser is only high on life.

Unrelated but if a patch ever comes out to fix Olimar's AI he would probably shoot up quite a bit or if the AI problems are 3DS specific.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'd personally replace Bowser and Ness with Villager and Falcon.

 

[AvariceX]

Marth and Mii Brawler should probably be in that grouping as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

We have 17 character here out of 51. Thats 1/3 of the cast. Do you guys agree with the potential of all of these ?

I'll bite.

High confidence of being in top 10: (unordered)



Low confidence of being in top 10: (unordered)



Skeptical of being in top 10: (though great characters)



Honorary "Most likely to improve with a GCN controller" tier: (ask again in a month)

(bonus: )

 

[DanGR]

Bowser's side-b customs offer him some fantastic mobility options. It's worth consideration in the Yoshi-Bowser discussion.

 

[Yokoblue]

One thing to add to the pacman discussion:
Doesn't his predictable recovery make him really bad in that regard ?
You can easily punish the first 2 bounces and if he's really low, you can even use his last jump (red one) and auto kill him.

 

[Thinkaman]

One thing to add to the pacman discussion:
Doesn't his predictable recovery make him really bad in that regard ?
You can easily punish the first 2 bounces and if he's really low, you can even use his last jump (red one) and auto kill him.

Well, with side-b and his general floatiness, Pac-Man doesn't HAVE to recover extremely low that often.

 

[SonicZeroX]

I'll bite.

High confidence of being in top 10: (unordered)



Low confidence of being in top 10: (unordered)



Skeptical of being in top 10: (though great characters)



Honorary "Most likely to improve with a GCN controller" tier: (ask again in a month)

(bonus: )

I think has a good shot at top 10 as well. And maybe short/fat-sized since they seem have similar properties to other top tiers (mostly being fast + good priority/grab + good kill power) but it's hard to say on that one because no one really uses them.

Anyone with a good Fsmash I'd consider to be in the "GCN" tier because having a cstick makes pivot fsmashes trivially easy while they are just really hard to do on the 3DS. Being able to run away from a dash attack or roll into an instant pivot fsmash punish will be very significant for those with strong and fast fsmashes. Marth especially since his tipper fsmash kills people at like 50%.

Also Falcon because I think SHFF Uairs are potentially a really strong option for him since they combo into pretty much everything from grabs to KO Knees, but they're really hard to do properly on the 3DS.

 

[Thinkaman]

There are lots of characters I wouldn't be shocked to hear end up as top 10, but I'd be least surprised to hear , of those not listed.

This isn't because I think those are the "next best characters", but the ones we understand least with the most plausible room for development.

 

[InfinityCollision]

In general, L cancelling is not vital in this game because moves that you would reasonably want to use as air to ground attacks were given autocancel windows. This one was missed, though.

Who actually has useful autocancels for air-to-ground? Serious question.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

I'm willing to bet Pacman is in the top 15

 

[victinivcreate1]

Am I correct to assume that Rosalina is better than at least half the cast?

 

[mimgrim]

Who actually has useful autocancels for air-to-ground? Serious question.

I know Palutena's AC Fair is really good for that because it can lead into a grab at lower percents when Jab won't work.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

why again is short/fat mii brawler the best? Ive been using a short/average weight mii brawler to great effect, and Idk what the differences are between avg width and largest

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I think Ganon is also a contender along similar logic. He just had so much room to go up from Brawl. I'm really surprised at how many people are sleeping on him too; maybe they just play For Glory?

My thoughts exactly after reading all these comments. Ganondorf is definitely not a low tier. He's better than more than a dozen characters, he has stuff going for him which no other character do.

If I had to pick a definite worst character right now, I would go with Palutena.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Who actually has useful autocancels for air-to-ground? Serious question.

Ike's Nair/Bair (And Uair to a lessor extent)

 

[san.]

Every autocancel is useful since it's better than not having one, less punishable and makes that aerial useful for short hops, etc.

Ganon's going to be quite great on actual stages with platforms. Expect to ban Battlefield-like stages immediately.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Bowser's side-b customs offer him some fantastic mobility options. It's worth consideration in the Yoshi-Bowser discussion.

I always assume the default settings/characters in these kinds of discussions. :x Otherwise you have a point.

@ the Ganondorf discussion: You have to respect him in this game. There is no which way about it. I played a few games with @Vermanubis a while back, and he would frequently trash me in a few reads because I refused to curtail my aggressiveness. I kept going in against him like I would in Brawl and got stomped. And that "nerf" to his side b? Don't be fooled. It's not as drastic as it seems.

I personally don't know where Ganon is going to end up, to be honest. I did think he'd be bottom rung for the longest but I don't know anymore. Same with a lot of other characters.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChronoPenguin]

im loving that Mii Brawler is getting his credit now.
There was a comment that Kirbys Up 3 isn't all that. I don't know Im really aggressive off-stage. The crap I can't come back from with Up1/Up2...I can with Up 3. No point in getting the kill if I die in the process. Additionally Up 3 still doesnt have potential if they recover high. Up 1 doesn't bring enough to the table to justify it to me but I should test Up 2 more.

That and Hammer Bash is a fairly good considerable kill option comes out relatively fast relative to his other hammers.

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't think you've played enough with ToonLink. I think it's going to be a really close game. I don't even think the character playstyles are similar now.



I'll address your point and add my opinion:
1) Link recovery is better ? How so ? I can survive as TL in 150% range almost all the time because I can never die unless its a big killing move like a fsmash. The fact that you always have a bomb in hand help a lot with recovery but 3/4 of the time I don't need it at all since his UP-B is godlike. since he is floaty he doesn't fall fast as well. His chain might be smaller than Link's but he still has the better recovery.

2) The biggest advantage TL has over Link is the camping game. I usually counterpick ToonLink against Link player becasue of that. TL can spam projectile way better than Link. Primarily because of the bow and arrow that don't need to charge at all to reach far. Link is also faster so doing SH arrow bomb cancel is faster for him as well. The speed of TL make him able to do a low of follow up to his specials as well. Boomerang into fair is almost a true combo (might be on some) and bomb into up smash or bomb into dash is also really good.

3) I'll give it to you, TL air game is lacking now. His bair can kill now which is a + but it also cannot combo anymore. his forward air is good as follow up from specials or to edgeguard but otherwise its crap. Link also has better priority over a lot of moves.

4) Yes Link ground game is better, but TL is like Jigglypuff, hes almost never on the ground.

5) Metor are better on Link as well. I don't see any metetor beside Dair (into SD) and a semi spike with dsmash. You'll have to explain that better.

6) Link is better but TL also has a grab that kills now (b-throw). Pivot grab edgeguard is now a thing.

I think Link can play the range games against certain character but cannot do it as well as TL does. Link has a better kill potential. I think both of them wont be played the same way (Link more relying on sword and some projectile and the opposite for TL)

1) Actually, if you use Toon Link's "god-like" recovery completely, it actually stops mid-air once the animation starts finishing, leaving Toon Link in a similar situation as Marth or Mario, where he can't move much after that and may most likely lose the edge. With Link, he doesn't have that same momentum, but instead keeps on going. And comparing their recovery moves, Toon Link's is shorter and has less horizontal range. Also, with the bombs, Link can keep recovering without gimp; with Toon Link, any of his bombs are automatic gimps for him, because he has a fault in momentum. Link's also quite floaty now, and doesn't fall as fast as he used to either, thus giving Link the one up.

2) Well, if you think about it, Toon Link's projectiles are way too slow compared to most everyone's, especially Link's. Anything Toon Link can do, Link can cancel it out and counter it, because his projectiles are based on more speed and realistic gravity than anything. Sure, Toon Link doesn't need to charge, but his arrows are then even slower, less powerful and very predictable.

3/4) Skipping.

5) Well, Link's Dash Attack, when near the body, has this unusual property of actually being a meteor in its own right, though is not used much as a meteor, due to its unusual properties at the moment. His Down Tilt can still meteor as well, and seems to have better range for edge-guarding into a meteor. His Meteor Bombs are self-explanatory, and his D-Smash is indeed a Semi-spike, but his Third Jab is also a weak semi-spike, which I nearly forgot about it being such.

6) However, Link has D-Tilt, D-Smash, Dash Attack, S-Tilt, D-Air, N-Air, F-Air, Bomb, Gale Boomerang, B-Air (if lucky), Bow (if a lucky shot), and a few more. While yes, Toon Link has the Pivot Grab, he also has less of a chance of doing any of these like Link can.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Every autocancel is useful since it's better than not having one, less punishable and makes that aerial useful for short hops, etc.

Hence my stipulation of moves that are useful for air-to-ground (ie about to land), as those are the options I'm most curious about (partially due to the removal of Marth's fair/nair autocancels). Shulk and Link wouldn't use falling uairs on a grounded opponent even if they did autocancel, for example, and Marth's autocanceled bair isn't relevant to my question even if you are facing the right way because the autocancel window opens on frame 30.

Ike's Nair/Bair (And Uair to a lessor extent)

None of these appear to autocancel anywhere near their active frames from brief testing, can someone verify?

I know Palutena's AC Fair is really good for that because it can lead into a grab at lower percents when Jab won't work.

Also curious about this. Fair is decently fast at 12 frames landing lag, but I can't seem to get it to autocancel.

 

[tm730]

I'm still a big believer in Charizard. Best grab catalyzed with great dash speed and solid throws? Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush are both really great tools. Rock Smash is also nothing to scoff at; rarely does something that wins in such a broad array of situations have such a high reward. (Like Flare Blitz, honestly...) Great jab, good u-smash.

My one complaint is the unreliability of Fly and Rising Cyclone.

I like dat N-air from him too to begin a combo with or to hit with after hittng/throwing just off the ledge ...then try to go in for the spike thanks to that extra jump

AAA to SH f-air at low percentages is an easy 24% too..i want to know a way to follow this up further

 

[A2ZOMG]

I always assume the default settings/characters in these kinds of discussions. :x Otherwise you have a point.

@ the Ganondorf discussion: You have to respect him in this game. There is no which way about it. I played a few games with @Vermanubis a while back, and he would frequently trash me in a few reads because I refused to curtail my aggressiveness. I kept going in against him like I would in Brawl and got stomped. And that "nerf" to his side b? Don't be fooled. It's not as drastic as it seems.

I personally don't know where Ganon is going to end up, to be honest. I did think he'd be bottom rung for the longest but I don't know anymore. Same with a lot of other characters.

Smooth Criminal

Yeah like...atm I feel like he actually has an okay chance fighting the top tiers. He definitely doesn't win any of those matchups, but his moves and punishes are just flat out scary, and Ganondorf survives pretty long in this game if he plays carefully. Sorta like Lucario except without really BS mechanics, but stronger potential to make a read at low percents that ends you.

Ganondorf kinda HAS to be respected when he has moves that do basically anywhere from 13-25 damage on average, while everyone else is trying to do like 7-9% a hit.

DACUS is also big, and we won't know how big until Wii-U release.

 

[san.]

Hence my stipulation of moves that are useful for air-to-ground, as those are the options I'm most curious about (partially due to the removal of Marth's fair/nair autocancels). Shulk and Link wouldn't use falling uairs on a grounded opponent even if they did autocancel, for example, and Marth's autocanceled bair isn't relevant to air-to-ground scenarios even if you are facing the right way because the autocancel window opens on frame 30.


None of these appear to autocancel anywhere near their active frames from brief testing, can someone verify?


Also curious about this. Fair is decently fast at 12 frames landing lag, but I can't seem to get it to autocancel.

I am confused about your definition of air-to-ground. If you're talking about landing with an aerial with the hitbox active, I don't think any aerial autocancels like that. If you're talking about a time period where you cannot input any other action but you can land with no aerial landing lag, then it's useful no matter what and allows for better followups upon landing.

Ike's nair does not autocancel during the hitbox, only at the beginning frames. It's a common misnomer with this attack. Bair autocancels on short hop. Fair, Uair, and Dair autocancel on full hop, with fair allowing for fastfalling with autocancel frames earlier than the latter two aerials mentioned.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'll bite.

High confidence of being in top 10: (unordered)



Low confidence of being in top 10: (unordered)



Skeptical of being in top 10: (though great characters)



Honorary "Most likely to improve with a GCN controller" tier: (ask again in a month)

(bonus: )

You really don't think Greninja will end up top 10 at least?

What character flaws are putting doubts in your mind?

 

[Terotrous]

And now you are contradicting yourself again.

Either it is the same move or it isn't. If it isn't used in the same way then it isn't the same move.

Uhh, it has like the exact same hitboxes and general frame data. It just has a massive amount of endlag for no reason.

Speaking of which, I just tested it, and the move definitely does have an autocancel window... because it has like 30-40 frames of pointless endlag if used in the air. Seriously, Charizard completes his spin and then just sits there for ages, unwilling to perform another aerial for some reason. I can practically hear Ash yelling at Charizard to do another move but he just ignores him.

Who actually has useful autocancels for air-to-ground? Serious question.

I just went and tested a few. Sheik, Palutena, ROB, Fox, and Falco definitely all have it. It is a bit less common than I thought, rather it's more often the case that good air to ground moves have a reasonable but non-zero amount of landing lag (usually 10-12 frames). Shield stun renders them fairly safe on shield, though if the opponent gets a perfectly timed Spot Dodge, they can punish. The real problem with Charizard is that he doesn't seem to have any aerials with <20 frames of landing lag.

(Actually, I just checked the landing lag data thread and it seems nair and uair are his fastest aerial at 22 frames of lag. All of his others are over 30. Gross).

 

[Thinkaman]

If I had to pick a definite worst character right now, I would go with Palutena.

I was totally on this train, until I discovered Super Speed. It's like, top-5-best-moves-in-game. It's incredible. It makes Wizard's Dropkick look like Jigglypuff d-tilt.

You really don't think Greninja will end up top 10 at least?

What character flaws are putting doubts in your mind?

I do think that, sorry if my wording was unclear. (it was) I simply think the characters on the higher list are more likely.

Greninja's moveset is certainly good, very safe. But I feel like his aerial game is underwhelming compared to other characters, and think his moveset isn't quite as good as it seems at first glance. (I think we all overrated dair and neutral-b day 1; I certainly did.) His shadow sneak cancel tricks are nontrivial, but become a lot more tame once the other side of the matchup is expecting it.

Make no mistake, Greninja is a really good character.

 

[Terotrous]

On an unrelated note, while browsing the landing lag thread I noticed that Pit also has no aerials with <20 frames of landing lag, which might explain why I thought he felt stiff. Nair and Fair do autocancel after their active frames end, though, so short hop Nair is still a thing. I suppose that means Pit and Dark Pit can also go on the list of characters whose air to ground moves cancel.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pft. The pits footsies are LEGIT!!!

 

[SN3AK]

SHULK all day, SSS Tier

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Worst Character in the game? Probably Doctor Mario.