Character Competitive Impressions

[Sinister Slush]

You mention Yoshi's new ability to jump out of shield as if it were just some random buff like any other.

Man Shaya stated the same thing in the league thread (. now that I type that it's weird we're talking about smash in LoL thread), I don't see it as some minor change. I'm positively happy he can finally Jump OoS. The fact I found that out during the demo made me happier then I felt all year long tbh lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You can't consistently defend yourself properly against Egg Lay if Yoshi is in the air with his back turned towards you. If you shield he will pivot eggy lay you and if you spotdodge he will just bair or even crossup nair you through it. Both moves are too fast to react to. Mis-ups with dair and to some extent his down B make matters even worse, of course.

Turtling out Yoshi when you have the lead is kind of the only thing you can do to defend yourself. In fact it's the only thing that works against him somewhat reliably ... but without a percent lead it's worthless by nature and even then you need the tools to keep out one of the most agile character in the game.

Edit: I agree though that Sonic is super fraudulent in smash 4 and has a similar shot at a top tier spot.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can't consistently defend yourself properly against Egg Lay if Yoshi is in the air with his back turned towards you. If you shield he will pivot eggy lay you and if you spotdodge he will just bair or even crossup nair you through it. Both moves are too fast to react to. Mis-ups with dair and to some extent his down B make matters even worse, of course.

If he B reverse egg lays and you're not spotdodging that, you aren't taking advantage of competitive reaction time. You don't have much incentive to not shield, keeping that in mind. It's slightly harder to react to him if he doesn't B reverse, which then makes it riskier. However, the startup on Egg lay is close to like 15 or so frames. That's not fast by any means.

Turtling out Yoshi when you have the lead is kind of the only thing you can do to defend yourself. In fact it's the only thing that works against him somewhat reliably ... but without a percent lead it's worthless by nature and even then you need the tools to keep out one of the most agile character in the game.

Yoshi lacks really safe approaches in the first place. He's not hard to turtle against. He's really really hard to approach in contrast.

 

[san.]

I don't think rage has a negative affect as a comeback mechanic, but as a lead abuse skewer.

I just feel like finishing off someone (revenge kills / resets) are often really difficult. Your kill power is less by a noticeable margin than you were just before losing that stock, and the strength of being low percent (can take or trade a hit) is easily negated by the opponent being at kill percent.

It may be anecdotal, but it always looks like the person who took the first stock is often able to tack on 60-80% reliably before being taken down. More knockback = more hitstun, it's definitely pretty good on low percent opponents. Stuff like Falco's jab not being able to full combo on low percent opponents when he's also low percent, but can just freely jab those ****ers otherwise because "rage". Makes the first stock way too crazy, crazier than likely ever before. I suppose it also gives more relevance to heavies (Bowser, etc) who can revenge kill at 0% no problem.

This. Rage is very important. Certain throw combos only work when *you are below 50% due to the combination of rage and VI. Rage also has a huge effect on attacks that seemingly have fixed knockback and no "multi-hit lock" or whatever it's called such as Pika's fair. As mentioned in the quoted post, rage affects how jabs work and can lead to jab confirms into kill moves at high rage. It feels like just as big a deal as VI since options appear and disappear depending on what rage level you are at.

Lucario and Ike have paralyzing counters that scale with the opponent's percent and seemingly with rage as well. This means that a paralyzing counter with both parties at relatively high percent, maybe 70-80+, results in a guaranteed partially charged smash attack punish if it lands. Without rage, you'd barely get a normal smash attack.

 

[The Light Music Club]

At first I thought we were talking rage of the player. Because it seems to me that I do better when the opponent taunts. I played a 3 stock match last night, and they taunted me when I only got them to around 55%. I proceeded to JV-2 Stock them.

Anyways, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, and Yoshi are the ones I have the most trouble with. I think that unless we get more balance patches that really effect them, they could really be characters we see quite often in competitive play. Of course, this may change with the inclusion of Mewtwo as well as the move to the Wii U, not sure. I plan on staying put with Palutena, as I love her down-throw combos you can do.

 

[Terotrous]

According to @ Shaya the shield drop animation is unchanged. I'm pretty sure pivot animations haven't been shortened either but I'd have to look for confirmation on that.

I'd want to see a side by side comparison on this. From this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pheY-yAxF68

It looks like Bowser's shield drop is at least a few frames faster in Smash 4. Now, shield drop speeds do vary across the cast, so it's possible that some characters might have been sped up while others are unchanged.

Another possibility is that the length of time that you have to stay in shield before you can drop it may have been reduced, which would have the same overall effect. There's definitely a change to the way the appearance of the shield animates between the two videos, and run up shield drop certainly feels a lot faster than in previous games.

I don't think rage has a negative affect as a comeback mechanic, but as a lead abuse skewer.

I just feel like finishing off someone (revenge kills / resets) are often really difficult. Your kill power is less by a noticeable margin than you were just before losing that stock, and the strength of being low percent (can take or trade a hit) is easily negated by the opponent being at kill percent.

Yeah, I totally agree, I posted the same thing in the Rage topic. Rage actually basically serves to give the person who gets the first kill in a close match a huge advantage, because the other person loses all their kill power when they die and thus has to tack on like 30% more damage to get back to kill percent. IMO, 2 stock is not a viable ruleset because of this, the person who takes the first stock will almost always win because of how this mechanic works. You need that third stock to even things out.

Well I better stick up for this cheery guy because nobody else seems to want to.

I also feel that Pac-Man is secret high tier. His fruit has a ton of potential for space control, especially the Melon and Galaga. One thing to note is that he can actually grab the Galaga when it spins back around and throw it again, which is pretty ridiculous. I also think he has pretty useful customs, every variant of the hyrdant seems useful, and the Lazy Fruit is also clearly pretty potent in some matchups (especially the Lazy Galaga, that thing stays out FOREVER).

His biggest problem is that he doesn't have amazing kill moves. Though I think he can win the neutral and build damage well against most characters, he has to make good reads to kill, and that may hold him back to upper mid.

Jab to usmash is also borderline guaranteed on like half the cast and if the opponent isn't on the ground while getting jabbed I think it's actually a true combo. In other words: Yoshi has TWO reliable and powerful KO setups ouf of moves that are safe on block, roll, spotdodge AND airdodge. The only character I know is able to do something similar is Fox who can combo spaced weak hit nair into dash usmash.

Little Mac and Palutena also appear to have something similar where their Jabs can lead into stuff. I'm sure there are others.

As for Yoshi, his biggest weakness is that most of his moves require commitment. The reward is usually fairly high, but compared to someone like Rosalina he's not nearly as safe. His KO power is also very heavily vertical, so fast fallers can live quite long against him.

That being said, I agree that while Yoshi's overall gameplan is somewhat similar to past games, it works a lot better now because he got many significant buffs.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I also feel that Pac-Man is secret high tier. His fruit has a ton of potential for space control, especially the Melon and Galaga. One thing to note is that he can actually grab the Galaga when it spins back around and throw it again, which is pretty ridiculous. I also think he has pretty useful customs, every variant of the hyrdant seems useful, and the Lazy Fruit is also clearly pretty potent in some matchups (especially the Lazy Galaga, that thing stays out FOREVER).

His biggest problem is that he doesn't have amazing kill moves. Though I think he can win the neutral and build damage well against most characters, he has to make good reads to kill, and that may hold him back to upper mid.

Another thing holding him back will be lack of development. I have encountered only a handful of Pac players and I have to say, barring one fantastic Japanese player, they were all worse than me. I am not here to say I am good, just to say that I think that people may have a hard time learning him will give up on him instantly and only a committed few will develop him to his full potential.

One plus about his Smash attacks though are the lingering, G&W style hitboxes. I have had many a player try and bait out a fully charged smash attack, just for them to charge straight into the second hitbox. I also think that his downsmash is a great roll punisher as it hits both sides fairly quickly and the knockback angle is quite flat which will allow a followup orange gimp.

I also think that On-Fire hydrant will be useful in some matchups as it may prevent opponents safely approaching Pac that may otherwise easily be able to do so. R&L and Yoshi spring to mind.

 

[Terotrous]

I also think that his downsmash is a great roll punisher as it hits both sides fairly quickly and the knockback angle is quite flat which will allow a followup orange gimp.

Yeah, but that's what I mean when I'm talking about reads. He's definitely got great options if he gets the opponent off-stage, though. Cherry covers low recoveries, while Strawberry or Orange cover high ones, and all are fast to charge. Melon can usually cover one of a character's recovery options, allowing you to try to intercept their other one. Bell is great to place on the ledge to restrict their ledge options.

I also think that On-Fire hydrant will be useful in some matchups as it may prevent opponents safely approaching Pac that may otherwise easily be able to do so. R&L and Yoshi spring to mind.

Definitely. Get behind it and charge that fruit! Captain Falcon and Little Mac are other characters where I'd definitely take this one.

I think the Dire Hydrant also has use. It recharges instantly (since it blows up), so you can use it liberally to attack from above. I'd probably want this against anyone who wants to chase you to the air, like Yoshi, it forces him to respect your landings a lot more.

 

[Luco]

As a quickie, I see LM losing to Lucario because the aura makes his range silly and I don't see how he'll be staying safe against some of that ludicrous... anyway. Lucario is someone who wins a long-range game against LM and forces him to approach. Lucario's grabs are fine afaik and he should be able to abuse LM in the air like nobody's business. Granted that if LM gets in a good read he can kill Lucario early... but the same can be said for Lucario.

Ness has trouble putting LM into advantageous situations, however his aerial strings and combos are deadly and his grab game is a big part of his meta. Ness can really stop LM in his tracks getting back onstage though with very little commitment and for this reason I also see LM losing or maybe being even.

The R&L MU is silly for LM. Luma makes his life painful. Not enough experience but I can't see him going against them either, who also have solid aerial and offstage games.

Sheik we've already mentioned; and Greninja... I don't know about Greninja. He might be able to do things or he may not, I haven't seen enough of Greninja in general to comment.

Yoshi I don't think can be written off for his 'vertical kill potential'. His OoS options are fantastic now and his aerial game in general is insane. Besides, Yoshi has kill moves other than vertical based ones lol. Even his Bair can kill now, and his Nair is there if you're living to silly percents. Z'zgashi or Slush can correct me if i'm wrong.

And so his MUs go.

Little Mac is certainly high tier, or at least that's how I see him. The more I look at it, the more I feel he has Brawl DDD syndrome. I think he will excel against characters with fundamental weaknesses that he can exploit bar a few and the inverse will be true of those MUs above him. That doesn't make him god tier, though it doesn't make him low tier either. LM's a solid character but I think he's been over-rated. He's somewhere in that amalgamation of high tier everyone keeps saying their characters are in because they're too worried peeps will call them out for over-rating their character.

But in all seriousness, Mac is good, not god. Get your spelling right, people!

 

[Mr. Johan]

Why do people think of Rage as a big deal? Yes it's a pathetic mechanic but it also doesn't seem to inherently dictate the match, it stops stacking at 150% and afaik it only affects knockback. In the scope of a whole match I don't think Rage would be something that really is problematic. I don't like it but everyone makes it sound like you can instantly comeback with Rage when, simply put, you can't; it's only a tiny morsel of help.

It's more the psychological and mental effects Rage carries if its successfully pulled off. It can help even the match, but it also helps shift momentum.

It can really give the Rage-ee a second wind and start taking advantage of the second chance.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi I don't think can be written off for his 'vertical kill potential'. His OoS options are fantastic now and his aerial game in general is insane. Besides, Yoshi has kill moves other than vertical based ones lol. Even his Bair can kill now, and his Nair is there if you're living to silly percents. Z'zgashi or Slush can correct me if i'm wrong.

Of course you can't write him off, he's still solidly high tier, but he does have certain patterns to his offense and isn't the untouchable god of neutral play that people are suggesting. I think some of it is just matchup unfamiliarity, because Yoshi does play pretty differently from other good characters and in past games you didn't really have to consider him a huge threat. Now he got huge buffs and is a legitimate contender and people aren't quite ready for it.


As for LM I can see the "destroyer of bad characters" title being possible for him (I mentioned this a couple posts back), though I'm not yet convinced that the good characters destroy him back. I think he has the tools to go even with quite a number of them.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Of course you can't write him off, he's still solidly high tier, but he does have certain patterns to his offense and isn't the untouchable god of neutral play that people are suggesting. I think some of it is just matchup unfamiliarity, because Yoshi does play pretty differently from other good characters and in past games you didn't really have to consider him a huge threat.

You can say that about Mac or just about any other character, really. With the patterns and whatnot. Kinda defeats your earlier points.

Also, nobody here is saying Yoshi is an untouchable god in neutral. It's just better than what it has been, thanks to a couple of adjustments.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

As for LM I can see the "destroyer of bad characters" title being possible for him (I mentioned this a couple posts back), though I'm not yet convinced that the good characters destroy him back. I think he has the tools to go even with quite a number of them.

I don't see Mac as a destroyer of bad characters specifically. I'm sure some characters that aren't considered high tier will have tools to deal with Mac effectively, while some that are considered better than Mac possibly couldn't. These tools (a good air/juggle game, a great keepaway game) don't necessarily define a character as high tier, let alone better than Mac.

 

[Terotrous]

You can say that about Mac or just about any other character, really. With the patterns and whatnot. Kinda defeats your earlier points.

It's a question of safety, though. Yoshi isn't as safe as someone like Little Mac or Sheik, so if he gets read he can get punished harder.

Also, nobody here is saying Yoshi is an untouchable god in neutral. It's just better than what it has been, thanks to a couple of adjustments.

Gheb pretty much was. There were other people hyping him up to pretty extreme levels too. There are certainly other characters who possess comparable amounts of speed, mobility, and power in high tier, like Greninja and ZSS.


Like I was saying initially, I feel like the criteria in this game for being high tier is that you either need to be a complete character (strong in every desirable trait for a smash character), or be a character who has a few weaknesses but appropriate advantages to mitigate them. Yoshi is definitely a complete character now, all of his biggest issues from past games were completely addressed. However, even complete characters can still be beaten in neutral. There just aren't any really obvious holes in their game you can exploit, instead you have to use the strengths of your own character to overcome them.

I don't see Mac as a destroyer of bad characters specifically. I'm sure some characters that aren't considered high tier will have tools to deal with Mac effectively, while some that are considered better than Mac possibly couldn't. These tools (a good air/juggle game, a great keepaway game) don't necessarily define a character as high tier, let alone better than Mac.

The characters he will totally wreck are those who have limited or bad neutral options. If he knows what you're going to go for, he can just armor through or outrange it all day long.

Also, I think if there is a character who legitimately had amazing keepaway (and it takes pretty amazing keepaway to keep Mac out, he's super fast), I think that probably would be enough for at least upper mid tier. Toon Link looks like he has the game's best zoning game, and I'm quite confident he's high tier because of it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yeah, I totally agree, I posted the same thing in the Rage topic. Rage actually basically serves to give the person who gets the first kill in a close match a huge advantage, because the other person loses all their kill power when they die and thus has to tack on like 30% more damage to get back to kill percent. IMO, 2 stock is not a viable ruleset because of this, the person who takes the first stock will almost always win because of how this mechanic works. You need that third stock to even things out.

Maybe if you're playing as a lightweight. Heavies like Bowser and Ganon don't really lose their kill power when they die because the moves they usually kill with in practice often double as damage rackers, and them getting refreshed offsets whatever they'd lose from lack of rage. Rage also lets you get some really early kills if you can stretch out your second stock, so for some characters it does in fact work as a comeback mechanic.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think Link has quite the zoning game, and as for a comparison of him and Toon Link, I'll honestly have to tell you that Link is the superior character in multiple ways. Here are the reasons why:

1) Link's recovery is by far superior, as it has more vertical and horizontal distance, as well as less need on momentum due to his faster air speed. As well, his tether is far better, and his bomb jump is also quite useful compared to Toon Link. With Toon Link, he was given Brawl Link's recovery momentum, which effectively nerfed him; also, his recovery move does not carry much distance at all. It's highly advised not to use the Bomb Jump, as you will be stuck in the air, and if you're gimped, better give up now, it'd be no way to recovery as Toon Link.

2) Link's range and zoning are better overall, and some of his attacks are, by far, faster and more powerful than Toon Link's. Link's Dash is a prime example of being better, as it can KO opponents reliably, while on the other hand, Toon Link's Dash covers poor distance and is prime for punishing due to its longer end lag. Toon Link's ranged attacks, namely his specials, are also slower and less reliable than Link's.

3) Air game with Link is actually superior to Toon Link. As another part of the recovery move listing, Link's air game is also better than Toon Link's for a variety of reasons, including power, speed, hitbox and hurtbox placement and the ever-living fact of Toon Link's atrocious D-air, which goes through and meteors others near the beginning now. With Link, he can at least bounce off the others and can get out of D-air in time for recovery, but with Toon Link, they made this nerf to make Toon Link worse in air. Oh, and did I mention Link and Toon Link's air speed buff and nerf respectively? It seems Toon Link's air speed has been nerfed, to where it somewhat matches Luigi's in my eyes.

4) Ground game is far superior with Link. Going with 2, Link's ground game, thanks to his longer ranged attacks, is far better than Toon Link's. I think this one can explain itself as a whole.

5) Meteors and semi-spikes are more abundant with Link. Toon Link has two meteors and a semi-spike, those being his downward attacks; however, Toon Link's D-Smash cannot do an effective semi-spike whatsoever, since it links to the other part of the attack. Then there's Link, who has three (four if you count Meteor Bomb) meteors and a semi-spike; his three meteors are his D-air, D-tilt and Dash attack, while his semi-spike is his D-Smash at the back. If you dash, and hit right near Link's body, it will have a meteor hit and accompanying sound effect.

6) Edgeguarding is much better with Link, due to his longer attacks that can safely hit opponents off the edge; this is more prevalent with his D-smash, D-tilt, dash and F-tilt than any other attack he has. With Toon Link, due to his range, he cannot safely hit an opponent, though at least has the option of the Spin Attack on this.

So, it's safe to say that Link's going to out-match Toon Link, and that Toon Link doesn't seem to deserve his supposed high tier spot. Link trumps him in many ways, and I can admit, Toon Link does have some advantages, but the disadvantages are worth noting.

Maybe if you're playing as a lightweight. Heavies like Bowser and Ganon don't really lose their kill power when they die because the moves they usually kill with in practice often double as damage rackers, and them getting refreshed offsets whatever they'd lose from lack of rage. Rage also lets you get some really early kills if you can stretch out your second stock, so for some characters it does in fact work as a comeback mechanic.

This happens to me quite a lot. I can actually use Link or Rosalina, and extend my life up to 170% (Rosalina) and 210% (Link), and can get an easy comeback. Rage definitely does help characters, especially since there are some that need it desperately. Quite the good comeback tool, especially with characters like Ganondorf.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

I've experimented with him extensively over the past few weeks and he seems fine to me. High level Ike play in Brawl rarely was gimped and I believe this to be around the same in this game. Reverse aether can make it back to the stage at farther distances than the old reverse aether can snap to the ledge. He has good rewards from throws and his best spacing tool of nair combos into his other attacks easily. A better double jump and good weight is also helpful.

Tilts were situational in Ike's play and it seems to continue now, don't really like using dtilt all too often. I feel Ike has changed from a surprisingly close-ranged character to a solid mid-range, and getting kills seems easier than ever, really.

Ah, hate to break this to you man but people are terrible in-general when it comes to gimping at all. I believe it has to do with 'too risky' to dedicate anything towards gimping Ike in-general or heck any character to be strict.

 

[Terotrous]

Maybe if you're playing as a lightweight. Heavies like Bowser and Ganon don't really lose their kill power when they die because the moves they usually kill with in practice often double as damage rackers, and them getting refreshed offsets whatever they'd lose from lack of rage. Rage also lets you get some really early kills if you can stretch out your second stock, so for some characters it does in fact work as a comeback mechanic.

Rage could function as a comeback mechanic but in practice if you die first the opponent won't be in the right damage percent for it.

For example, consider the following close game scenario.

- The game is fairly even on the first stock, with P1 having a slight lead. Lets say the percents are 85% to 115% when P1 lands a kill.
- When you have about 85% damage, 115% is kill percent. But at 0%, it's more like 130%. So P2 now has to put on a lot more damage to get P1 (who is still only at 85%) to kill percent, and then he still has to land a killing hit.
- It's quite feasible for P2 to take about 60% damage before finally getting the stock off, despite the fact that the deficit was only 30% on the first stock!
- Going into the second stock, P1 now has a 60% lead. Even if the game is even, that'll go to like 120% vs 60%, and 60% is still nowhere near kill percent at 120% rage, so the comeback potential of rage is largely useless. P1 has many opportunities to land a kill move before he will be at kill percent himself, and thus will likely win.


The point about characters who use their kill moves for damage racking is an interesting one, but it's really only true for a few members of the cast. Most characters generally have dedicated kill moves that they keep fresh, or rely on gimps where freshness is not important.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Little Mac and Palutena also appear to have something similar where their Jabs can lead into stuff. I'm sure there are others.

WHY I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED.

Zard's Jab2 is a legit kill confirm into Fly on the majority of the cast. It's very percentage/rage specific but when it works it's beautiful.

Skip to 3:00

I'm not sure how many characters can kill confirm off of their jabs but for those that can it REALLY ups their punish game, especially with a jab as reliable as Zard's.

 

[Terotrous]

Zard's Jab2 is a legit kill confirm into Fly on the majority of the cast. It's very percentage/rage specific but when it works it's beautiful.

I tried playing some Zard yesterday and just got so frustrated by his aerials that I couldn't go on. Seriously, why does Nair not autocancel? Rob has the exact same move and it does! UpB out of shield also seems not to hit properly, the first hit lands but the strong hit whiffs.

Glad to see he has some technology besides side B, but in general I'm not too optimistic about this character.

 

[BSP]

Funny how I never hear any mention of Pacman.

I've seen him left out of tier lists. The Forgotten One.

Mid high tier at worst IMO. I've been messing around with him a bit and i think his main strengths are:

trampoline: He can force you to take an aerial approach at neutral, lest you let him charge his fruits . This isn't a huge problem for some characters, but it's still forcing the opponent to go airborne, which isnt as safe of a position as the ground. For others, it's a real pain (Little Mac particularly).

If he puts a trampoline on the ledge, the only way to avoid it is to ledge jump (which is exactly what he wants) or let go and try to go over it in some other manner, which is probably going to leave you without a double jump. If you wait it out, he can hydrant you if he hasn't used it, and probably side B you afterwards, or Key you if he has one ready, or put you in some stupid setup if he has melon.

Hydrant: forces you to be cautious when you're trying to juggle him, and it and its water can screw up your approaches, and it alter his fruit trajectories/speeds. It can be used against him, but Pacman shouldn't be dropping it in situations that he can't react to the hydrant being hit back into him before he can react.

Then there's the ways he can launch it. He can send it bouncing at you, in a high lob, or keep it bouncing in place for a stationary hitbox. I think there's more, but those are the ones I use the most. Jabbing the hydrant when the opponent is on the ledge sets up a nice trap too.

I think his ledge traps are going to be a big deal once people explore them more.

Fruits: namco gave him 5 moves in one if you ask me. Orange for a quick decent projectile, Apple for its odd trajectory and decent power, Melon, galaxian, and bell for setups, and Key for punishes and confirms. He can essentially do anything he wants out of the charging animation too, so it's pretty easy to mind game with it.

Main problem I have as him is vs. characters that can easily/quickly get in his face and stay there, like Sonic and Yoshi. Rosalina is a huge pain too. His grab taking days is also a huge problem, but he'd probably be too good with Mario's grab for instance.

I think he's mid tier at worst, but I'd put him mid-high. He has a extremely odd style and you do have to run away and make some space with him, but it's worth it.

 

[mimgrim]

I tried playing some Zard yesterday and just got so frustrated by his aerials that I couldn't go on. Seriously, why does Nair not autocancel? Rob has the exact same move and it does! UpB out of shield also seems not to hit properly, the first hit lands but the strong hit whiffs.

Glad to see he has some technology besides side B, but in general I'm not too optimistic about this character.

Rising SH Nair has no lag for Zard (same for Fair), FYI.

 

[deepseadiva]

I mean, if you want to make a topic about how much you hate aura, go ahead.

We can fit it between the "rolling is op" and "counters are too powerful" threads.

*don't post single gifs as your post*

 

[The Real Gamer]

I tried playing some Zard yesterday and just got so frustrated by his aerials that I couldn't go on. Seriously, why does Nair not autocancel? Rob has the exact same move and it does! UpB out of shield also seems not to hit properly, the first hit lands but the strong hit whiffs.

Glad to see he has some technology besides side B, but in general I'm not too optimistic about this character.

Both rising SH Far/Nair autocancel.
All FH aerials will autocancel.
FH FF Fair/Nair/Uair autocancel but it's a bit more timing specific.

Fly can be a bit iffy at times due to the rage mechanic and VI, so I usually prefer Up Smash OoS unless if my shield gets crossed up, which in that case I usually go for turnaround>Jab.

I only go for Jab2>Fly when I know my Jab will pop the opponent into the air which makes it easier for the Fly to connect on all hits.

 

[deepseadiva]

Does "the move is over" also mean "autocancel"

 

[Terotrous]

Both rising SH Far/Nair autocancel.

As far as my testing indicates, the move actually does not autocancel at any point, if the move has even a couple frames left in its animation he goes into that long bounce recovery, it's just possible to complete the entire move if performed really early. Unfortunately, this has many drawbacks - it forces you to commit to the move earlier, it gives your opponent more time to react, it makes it harder to use when coming down in the air, and it generally results in a suboptimal placement of the hitbox (the hitbox is really in the best position in the middle of the move, not at the end). Overall it just really hurts the utility of this move not to have it cancel.

I really don't understand why Charizard has like 20+ frames of recovery on all of his aerials and no autocancels when he's seemingly supposed to be an aerial fighter. Sure, his smashes hit really hard, and Ftilt has amazing range, but the slow speed of his aerials limits his offensive options. Also, I don't like that DThrow is no longer a tech chase. Was that only in PM? It's been ages since I played Zard in Brawl.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Does "the move is over" also mean "autocancel"

As far as my testing indicates, the move actually does not autocancel at any point, if the move has even a couple frames left in its animation he goes into that long bounce recovery, it's just possible to complete the entire move if performed really early. Unfortunately, this has many drawbacks - it forces you to commit to the move earlier, it gives your opponent more time to react, it makes it harder to use when coming down in the air, and it generally results in a suboptimal placement of the hitbox (the hitbox is really in the best position in the middle of the move, not at the end). Overall it just really hurts the utility of this move not to have it cancel.

I like to call them autocancels since Zard lands right as the animation is finished. Not technically the same but as close as an autocancel as you can get. Semantics.

I really don't understand why Charizard has like 20+ frames of recovery on all of his aerials and no autocancels when he's seemingly supposed to be an aerial fighter. Sure, his smashes hit really hard, and Ftilt has amazing range, but the slow speed of his aerials limits his offensive options. Also, I don't like that DThrow is no longer a tech chase. Was that only in PM? It's been ages since I played Zard in Brawl

I don't disagree about this hurting his air game but Zard (for w/e reason) wasn't designed to be an air fighter in this game. His ground game is far superior while his aerials are used more for space control/off stage gimps than go to offensive options.

I haven't played Brawl since like 2011 so I can't help you there. xD

 

[Minty_]

I really don't understand why Charizard has like 20+ frames of recovery on all of his aerials and no autocancels when he's seemingly supposed to be an aerial fighter. Sure, his smashes hit really hard, and Ftilt has amazing range, but the slow speed of his aerials limits his offensive options. Also, I don't like that DThrow is no longer a tech chase. Was that only in PM? It's been ages since I played Zard in Brawl.

Down throw was not a tech chase in Brawl - it was his strongest throw (in terms of KO potential) just like this game - it sends them pretty much at the same trajectory. Also, I don't think Sakurai ever stated he's supposed to be an aerial fighter. He has one small extra jump. He has strong aerials (seriously that back air is a beast) but laggy, so they are best used against other airborne opponents.

 

[Terotrous]

Down throw was not a tech chase in Brawl - it was his strongest throw (in terms of KO potential) just like this game - it sends them pretty much at the same trajectory. Also, I don't think Sakurai ever stated he's supposed to be an aerial fighter. He has one small extra jump. He has strong aerials (seriously that back air is a beast) but laggy, so they are best used against other airborne opponents.

I think Up Throw is his strongest throw now, though it's still not PM status. As for him being an aerial fighter, he also used to have a glide, Nair is generally one of his best neutral options, and heck, he's got those huge wings. You'd kind of expect him to be decent in the air, but his recovery is surprisingly bad for a flier and his aerials are all really slow.

Back air does hit super hard, which is why it'd be nice if you could use it anywhere near the ground without giving your opponent a free forward Smash in Charizard's giant backside while he sits there taking a breather.

 

[deepseadiva]

I like to call them autocancels since Zard lands right as the animation is finished. Not technically the same but as close as an autocancel as you can get. Semantics.

I would not use them interchangeably since "autocancel" implies you can end the move prematurely without lag. Otherwise when you say "All FH aerials will autocancel" you're implying something that they literally cannot do. You really mean "the move ends when it's over". xD

Sad to hear he's so slow. If there was going to be one fast heavy it should have been Charizard.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I think Up Throw is his strongest throw now, though it's still not PM status.

Up Throw is his weakest throw now that's best used for followups. Down Throw is the killer throw.

I would not use them interchangeably since "autocancel" implies you can end the move prematurely without lag. Otherwise when you say "All FH aerials will autocancel" you're implying something that they literally cannot do. You really mean "the move ends when it's over". xD

I don't mean to get into a semantics debate but this is what it says in the SmashWiki:

Auto-canceling is the act of landing during the beginning or ending frames of an aerial attack and circumventing the landing lag that would have occurred had the character landed in the middle. Auto-canceling an attack produces no more landing lag than a regular landing, while landing during the middle of an aerial attack almost always results in a significant delay. Most aerial attacks can be auto-cancelled both during the first few frames or the last few frames, though some cannot be auto-cancelled at the start, at the end, or even both. Every attack has a specific auto-cancelling window. Auto-canceling can be very beneficial to players using characters with laggy aerial attacks, as this can reduce the amount of landing lag produced, and create more time for the character to act, potentially avoidingpunishment that could have been made if the player had not auto-cancelled. Precise auto-canceling of aerials is frequently needed for performing followups andcombos while leaving no time for the opponent to react and escape.

I'm not understanding the difference here since you're essentially landing right as the move ends (the last few frames).

 

[Minty_]

I think Up Throw is his strongest throw now, though it's still not PM status.

No. Up throw is by far Char's weakest throw in terms of knockback. It doesn't kill from the top platform of battlefield until well over 200%. Down throw will kill from anywhere on battlefield by 200%, and from the sides much earlier than that. It does the least damage though.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm not understanding the difference here since you're essentially landing right as the move ends (the last few frames).

The way autocancels work is that if you land during certain frames of the attack (it's different depending on each aerial), you won't go into the standard landing recovery, you'll just recover instantly, as though you weren't doing an attack at all. Not all aerials have autocancel windows. None of Charizard's attacks appear to have them, even though they would be really handy for him.

Try landing with ROB's nair and you'll quickly see the difference.

No. Up throw is by far Char's weakest throw in terms of knockback. It doesn't kill from the top platform of battlefield until well over 200%. Down throw will kill from anywhere on battlefield by 200%, and from the sides much earlier than that. It does the least damage though.

That crazy Sakurai. Big kaboomy body slam? Low knockback! Burning your face? High knockback!

Does he actually get anything useful after an Up Throw? I was attempting back throw followups (he has these in PM) and I wasn't getting much of anything.

 

[Remzi]

So much misinformation on Zard, lol.

Nair auto-cancels after a certain point, if you don't believe it, try a full jump rising nair and see how long it takes to be able to perform another action. Uthrow is his LOWEST knockback throw, in fact it combos into fair on many characters at 0%. Dthrow is a very potent kill throw, and it was only a tech chase in PM.

 

[Terotrous]

Nair auto-cancels after a certain point, if you don't believe it, try a full jump rising nair and see how long it takes to be able to perform another action.

I'll test it later, but if he does have it, it's really, really late in the move. Basically too late to be useful.

It really needs to autocancel from about halfway through the move on.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'll test it later, but if he does have it, it's really, really late in the move. Basically too late to be useful.

Nair is one of his best moves so IDK where this is coming from.

 

[Terotrous]

Nair is one of his best moves so IDK where this is coming from.

I mean that the autocancel is too late to be helpful. You still have to perform the move super early to avoid the landing lag.

And yes, that move is very important to Zard, which is why it needs a good autocancel window. It's almost the entirety of his neutral game in PM.

Incidentally, you'll probably say "why do you keep bringing up PM", and it's because Charizard is a pretty good character in PM. He only needs a few small tweaks to reach that level in Smash 4, which is why it's kind of frustrating that they seemingly didn't pay a lot of attention to him when they were setting move properties.

 

[The Real Gamer]

The fact that the hitbox stays out for so long is what makes it such a great spacing tool regardless of having to perform it early.

 

[mimgrim]

As much as I love PM. Comparing it to smash 4 is like comparing apples and oranges. Same goes for comparing Melee to Smash 4. Completely different engines. Stahp it.

 

[Terotrous]

As much as I love PM. Comparing it to smash 4 is like comparing apples and oranges. Same goes for comparing Melee to Smash 4. Completely different engines. Stahp it.

Nair is still mostly the same move, you just can't use it the same way and he doesn't really have a substitute for it that I can see.

In general, L cancelling is not vital in this game because moves that you would reasonably want to use as air to ground attacks were given autocancel windows. This one was missed, though.