Character Competitive Impressions

[InfinityCollision]

I thought we'd established that 1.0.3 made no changes whatsoever to any characters? Datmining indicated no changes to character data last I heard.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The patch had absolutely no changes character wise.

 

[Luco]

I thought we'd established that 1.0.3 made no changes whatsoever to any characters? Datmining indicated no changes to character data last I heard.

The patch had absolutely no changes character wise.

Oh I didn't hear this at all. Cheers for clearing it up. =P

 

[Terotrous]

You literally seem like the nicest guy here right now. Good stuff sir! =D

@ Terotrous : You're assuming Mac's only issue is his offstage, which is blatantly not the case. Comparing Mac to brawl Olimar is flawed; and I can't buy into the 'Mac is top tier because ooh ground game so stronk' argument.

You see, the thing about Olimar in Brawl was that, much like current little mac, Olimar was a beast on stage. Olimar had so many options which usually made approaching him hell for the vast majority of the cast. The thing was, Olimar's aerial game was fine in many cases too. His yellow pikmin (I think it was yellow that had this property) had massive priority versus like everything and he actually had a lot of range on much of these aerials. His Uair was a fantastic juggling tool with just about any pikmin and his grab game perfectly combo-ed into many of his aerials (that Dthrow into Uair combo made anyone want to walk offstage and SD right there and then).

Mac... has none of the above aerial attributes. Unlike (Brawl) Olimar, Mac gets someone into the air and then waits for them to get back on the ground.

True. Olimar clearly has much better aerials than Little Mac. However, I think it's fair to say that compared to previous Smash games, aerials are a bit less important this time around. In previous games, SHFFL was pretty much the main method of approach, but now thanks to faster shield drops and pivots, grounded dashing approaches are quite legitimate, and thus Mac's "stay on the ground at all times" gameplan is generally viable.

Mac's grab is also serviceable. It's not inordinately amazing, but it does its job of letting him get damage if you block too much.

More importantly, if mac himself is chucked above the stage, he can't contest people who win aerial battles or are just generally good at juggling.

That's not quite true. Mac certainly can contest airborne characters with his aerials, and I suspect top-level Macs will do this on occasion to keep their opponent honest. He gets no damage for successfully landing a hit, but the damage isn't the point, if you land a back air that gives you the time you need to get down to the ground, which is Mac's only goal every time he's in the air.

Also, thankfully for Mac, he is a fast-faller, so his fast-fall / airdodge is a legitimate way to get back down to the ground. Counter can also be used in some situations, and he inexplicably possesses a wall jump. I think one of the biggest misconceptions about Mac is that he's completely helpless when he's in the air, which he's not. The air is definitely bad for him and he never wants to be there, but he does have a variety of tools that he can use to mix up his recovery, forcing you to get a read on him if you want extra damage or a gimp.

some characters such as Sheik can contest him in long range onstage, and then STACKED on this is the fact he does so very little in the air and offstage. If he's losing 2/3's of the game if not more, then what people are saying about his match-ups being polarising make sense.

True, I definitely think Sheik wins that matchup, she's just got a lot of tools to make his life unpleasant. However, I'm pretty sure Sheik is +1 or better vs at least half the cast, and I did have her higher on top tier than him.

Mac isn't a bad character and i'm not disputing that. But a character that loses to/has trouble versus the majority of high and top tier will most likely be barred from those top positions (see: King DDD in Brawl).

That's the thing, though, how many of the people in what I'm calling the "high tier" (or characters others are suggesting are high tier, though I think my list is pretty much the same as most except + Bowser) do you think he loses to?

Like I've said before, I think he has advantage over Yoshi simply because he resists vertical KOs so well. I'd also like him vs Lucario, because with his huge KO power Lucario won't be living to huge percents and activating aura. I can only speculate on Sonic and Diddy, but neither seems one-sided to me. ZSS is one I can see where he might lose because of Paralyser and her disjoints. Might also be at slight disadvantage vs Greninja, but I'd want to see that one played out before I call it.


Anyway, it is possible that rather than being top tier, Mac is just a high tier character who completely wrecks all bad characters. I'm pretty confident that bad characters will lose to him terribly, because their limited and generally weak neutral options will just be total prey to his armored attacks and they'll have no answers to his tilts. I can't really see any situation where he's lower than high, though, most mid-tier characters also have some holes in their overall gameplan while not possessing the same great strengths that Mac does.

 

[MattCon5]

It's the fact that Little Mac essentially has five less moves than most of the cast. Aside from some things I've heard about his nair being situationally useful, Mac's aerials will almost never see any use in competitive play. When a character has so little options available to him compared to the rest of roster, it automatically weakens him quite a bit.

Another thing that Mac suffers from is that the Nintendo clearly balanced competitive Smash 4 for Omega Mode, but it's pretty obvious that the competitive scene will disagree with that. Battlefield and Yoshi's will surely be legal competitive stages, and there's a chance stages like Tomodachi Life and Arena Ferox will be as well. And on the Wii U version, there will be an even larger stage list. Want a massive advantage over Little Mac? Just ban Final Destination, it's literally that easy. Mac can't follow up well on platforms unless he uses a grounded up-b, which is very punishable if the opponent shields.

I don't deny that Mac will be the scrub-wrecker and he'll probably wreck every character below him on the tier list, but in a few months, competitive Macs are going to have to discover a lot of tech for Mac to be considered anything above mid tier.

 

[Terotrous]

It's the fact that Little Mac essentially has five less moves than most of the cast. Aside from some things I've heard about his nair being situationally useful, Mac's aerials will almost never see any use in competitive play. When a character has so little options available to him compared to the rest of roster, it automatically weakens him quite a bit.

The thing is that those 5 moves are all aerials, so as long as he stays out of the air, all of his moves are good.

It's definitely an incredibly unconventional design as far as Smash fighters go, because traditionally aerials have been such a vital part of the game, but the overall system changes and the fact that his grounded options are just so good generally lets him play the game without them.

Another thing that Mac suffers from is that the Nintendo clearly balanced competitive Smash 4 for Omega Mode

Actually, I don't think they did (Little Mac would be pretty OP if so), but that's not really vital to the point.

it's pretty obvious that the competitive scene will disagree with that. Battlefield and Yoshi's will surely be legal competitive stages, and there's a chance stages like Tomodachi Life and Arena Ferox will be as well. And on the Wii U version, there will be an even larger stage list. Want a massive advantage over Little Mac? Just ban Final Destination

I actually don't think Mac does too bad on Yoshis, it's basically just two long flat platforms where he can use his normals, and the platform even lets him escape some juggles. Ditto for Tomodachi Life. On transforming stages, like Prism Tower and Arena Ferox, he can always wait out a bad transformation if he has to. Battlefield is the stage he really doesn't want, so a Mac player should likely just ban Battlefield every time.


It's a bit hard to speculate on Wii U right now because we haven't played the stages and don't know which ones will be legal. Mac's quality as a character is going to come down to the percentage of legal stages that are generally flat vs those that are more vertical.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Er... Sorry for being stupid as always but can you clarify?

Seems like my jokes have been very hit or miss lately... I apologize. ^.^

I always joke about Shulk being the far more interesting "big sword user" between the two. In terms of competitive viability I don't know enough about them to have a respectable opinion.. yet

 

[InfinityCollision]

but now thanks to faster shield drops and pivots

According to @ Shaya the shield drop animation is unchanged. I'm pretty sure pivot animations haven't been shortened either but I'd have to look for confirmation on that.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I wonder what all yours thoughts on Kirby are this time around, he feels really underwhelming to me, compared to many other characters. So many battles feel uphill.

 

[Berserker.]

Honestly, Brawl Kirby was alright so I'd say Smash 4 Kirby is alright. Also, I heard his customs make him better.

The existence of Yoshi kinda sucks though for Kirby

 

[deepseadiva]

Funny how I never hear any mention of Pacman.

I've seen him left out of tier lists. The Forgotten One.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Kirby's customs aren't the biggest news in the world. Neutral 3 is mostly superior to neutral 1 but pretty much just means it's a bit easier to take powers so it doesn't change Kirby's merits all that much (Ice Breath is just terrible). IMO the side variants aren't very good and default is just best. Up 2 is pretty nice as that projectile is huge, but giving up hitting on the way up is pretty unfortunate so it's a hard choice (I've heard praise for up 3, but it ruins Final Cutter as an attack which isn't worth it to me since Kirby recovers from everything anyway). Grounding Stone overall seems a bit better than standard Stone, but for the most part, they are both used in the same situations so it's not a big deal.

Overall I like this Kirby though. His mobility is far less awful than it has been in the past (he's still below average among the cast, but the general speed-up is really nice for him), a lot more powers are legitimately really big deals to take and taking powers now does more damage and doesn't get Kirby hit (Kirby-Shulk is just nuts!), and Kirby's basic gameplan of having a lot of quick, safe moves complemented with strong recovery and a few surprisingly heavy power moves is even more emphasized here with the new and vastly improved Hammer as well as generally favored by this engine. I really don't foresee Kirby as a top character, but he seems fully viable and is now the goto if you want a multi-jumper who is good in a straightforward way whereas in Brawl it was often hard to justify picking Kirby when the MK icon was right next to his.

Ike was a recent topic? Ike is funny because I too at first thought he was just a worse Shulk who seemed just pointless to pick... but then I saw his customs. They completely define the character; IMO you aren't really playing Ike if you aren't using side 2 and up 2 which are just such drastic improvements to his recovery but also really improve his on-stage game. Side 2 is not only a very good recovery option that completely outclasses the other Quick Draw options, but it has overwhelming priority on-stage. It only does 4%, but most characters don't have a particularly easy way to challenge it which really just opens doors for this character since you can pretty freely use it for mobility and disruption. Ike's neutral when he can dart across the stage and mess with what the other guy is doing is just so drastically better than it would be otherwise; it just forces his opponents to play his game so much more which is a huge deal. On-stage the other aether is so much better too; people jump around a few character lengths in front of you and you just snipe them with the thrown sword so ridiculously far in front of Ike; it's great!

His normals pretty much are just worse than Shulk's but they aren't really that much worse (other than nair); the real choice between Ike and Shulk is Monado powers (and the best nair in smash history) versus Ike's far superior long range game thanks to side 2 and up 2. As bizarre as it is, Ike actually has a non-trivially better recovery as well, but Shulk has a far superior counter so that's kinda a wash? Shulk does win the overall trade-off, but Shulk is really good; Ike is still okay. Meta wise, Ike is also pretty easy to pick up and thus a good secondary while Shulk is one of the hardest characters to play well and is pretty much a waste of the player's time if the player isn't a completely dedicated main; that gives Ike a lot of purpose as a character itself.

 

[InfinityCollision]

While we're talking about swordie midrange disruption, shoutouts to Shulk's side-3 custom. All four of the swordies have really good midrange tools in their custom movesets. Ike's ability to double-dip on that is pretty legit too.

 

[Berserker.]

While we're talking about swordie midrange disruption, shoutouts to Shulk's side-3 custom. All four of the swordies have really good midrange tools in their custom movesets. Ike's ability to double-dip on that is pretty legit too.

That's the super armor back slash, right? Yep, I use that also.

I hope I'm not the only **** here that uses power vision. That thing KO's. Hard. You can counter a simple jab or projectile and still KO at 50-80% anywhere but dash vision has some utility. Being placed under the opponent when used at lower %'s. Great against projectiles. Whatever.



Idk about Pacman. I think he's a better Mari--- Okay, let's not get there. I kinda don't get his grab though. Why is it a tether grab of all things? He would have been waaaay better Edit: Pacman's good

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That's the super armor back slash, right? Yep, I use that also.

I hope I'm not the only **** here that uses power vision. That thing KO's. Hard. You can counter a simple jab or projectile and still KO at 50-80% anywhere but dash vision has some utility. Being placed under the opponent when used at lower %'s. Great against projectiles. Whatever.



Idk about Pacman. I think he's a better Mari--- Okay, let's not get there. I kinda don't get his grab though. Why is it a tether grab of all things? He would have been waaaay better Edit: Pacman's good

Stealth Raptor is a local here who has picked up Shulk, and he runs the power vision. It's just obviously the best counter variant; there aren't a lot of situations it will miss where the normal one will hit, and it is a really terrifying kill move especially when Shulk is in smash. I mean, you die in the 70s as the victim; that kind of a move changes the game in a big way.

As per the Pac, IMO he's pretty mediocre. The fire hydrant has to be used very carefully so it actually works for him and not against him if the foe looks at it as their tool too, and it's not like he has some top tier zoning moveset that adding stage obstacles uniquely helps him (I really do like the On Fire Hydrant though). A large amount of his moveset is really punishable, and while his aerials are very rewarding for their speed, I feel that they seem to lose most air to airs with the characters who actually like to jump around a lot. As well noted above, his grab is one of the very worst in the game, his specials other than hydrant are extremely drawn out in ways that people will learn to counter, and his item toss is a catchable high power non-explosive that can only be initially thrown from a special item throw state which is precisely the kind of move that declines in value as players improve since Pac is limited in how he can throw but the enemy has fully free catch ability which will happen more and more with time. In general I don't think his moveset lends itself well to subtlety either; as people really get familiar with Pac-Man, I think he'll be one of the more predictable characters simply due to how his moveset is built (I mained Brawl G&W; it's a bigger problem than you think at first). I think Pac-Man is playable like almost all of the characters, but I'd put him in the low tier and due to how he's such a difficult to play oddball don't really expect him to ever be popular. I'm sure the above paragraph will really upset at least one Pac-Man main but sorry; I don't believe in your character at all.

 

[Loota]

That Sheik vs. Lucario match posted here a few pages back... Can't really argue that it didn't look totally silly but that's what you get for playing with a character that can't kill against a character that benefits the most of said weakness. Hell, he didn't even seem to try to kill him on the second stock, he only continued to rack damage normally without any hope of killing with the moves he used. That's a really bad way of playing against him even if killing gets slightly easier the more damage he has, but in the end, it will turn the favors upside down at some point if you're not going to land any kill moves. He should've gone for the actual kill moves right away when the Lucario was at danger of dying, not giving him +70% worth of extra aura and then desperately going for the kill.

I understand that not everyone will like the mechanic but it's not nearly as bad as some people make it to be, that video was especially misguiding. It's a mechanic that will define matchups (just like it did in Brawl) and make you play really careful when Lucario is at +100% but in no way broken. Just make your kill moves count at the right time and you'll be fine, and maybe even throw in some early kills crippling his game noticeably. It's a strong mechanic nonetheless.

 

[Shaya]

Especially misguiding? Getting Side-B'd at 50% and dying at near maximum aura is pretty disgusting and not even remotely that potent in Brawl.
Sheik does struggle to get the kill though, that's definitely true. But it is a broken mechanic, it doesn't add depth to the game and punishes the player for actually trying to hit you. Once they're at kill percent for you, your character is actually at a disadvantage due to the extreme damage differences and the momentum that Lucario can gather from a single hit. The range increases, the way that shield pushback scales in this game harder than before, and the fact that he starts killing at well under sub 100 with some of the longest ranged moves in the game makes very little sense. Edge guarding him becomes effectively useless as well, for NO REASON.

He may not be the best character in this game, but he is definitely the most disgusting design that I think the series has ever seen. I legitimately feel less dirty with MK timing me out at the ledge for the last 60 seconds of a game with a 10% lead than Lucario hitting me once with a 100%+ deficit and then killing me with any one of his obnoxious frame trapping moves afterwards at 70%. The difference here is that I was actually losing to that MK, I don't feel like I'm losing to Lucario, you just end up losing for doing the right things to win against every other character. It has no counterplay to it at all, you either have a way to kill lucario at 100% reliably, or you deal with something absurd that has no place in Smash Bros.

 

[mountain_tiger]

He may not be the best character in this game, but he is definitely the most disgusting design that I think the series has ever seen. I legitimately feel less dirty with MK timing me out at the ledge for the last 60 seconds of a game with a 10% lead than Lucario hitting me once with a 100%+ deficit and then killing me with any one of his obnoxious frame trapping moves afterwards at 70%. The difference here is that I was actually losing to that MK, I don't feel like I'm losing to Lucario, you just end up losing for doing the right things to win against every other character. It has no counterplay to it at all, you either have a way to kill lucario at 100% reliably, or you deal with something absurd that has no place in Smash Bros.

WRT to the bolded - the thing about Smash Bros is that you can't really use the same strategy against each opponent; often you have to vary it up quite a lot. With Lucario, you just have to vary it more than usual.

Also, killing in this game is generally easier than it is in Brawl (well, from playing it myself it certainly feels easier, at least...), and we managed to deal with him then.

Normally I'm adamantly against 'comeback' mechanics in fighting games, but in Smash Bros.... it kind of works.

 

[Shaya]

WRT to the bolded - the thing about Smash Bros is that you can't really use the same strategy against each opponent; often you have to vary it up quite a lot. With Lucario, you just have to vary it more than usual.

I wouldn't use the word vary at all. He DENIES those strategies out right with a thoughtless no drawback mechanic. All matches involved with him are completely binary, he either goes roughly even with characters with similar kill potential or gets given disgusting advantages on those who cannot. There's no abusing of a percent advantage on Lucario, something inherent to Smash Bros and any thing that ever contrasts with this is not enjoyed by the competitive scene at all.

Do you know who had a similar impact on the metagame (but admittedly in a more revolting way)? Ice Climbers. No character in the game had the risk/reward that ICs did, i.e. literal loss of a stock from any mistake, and ICs had all the tools to out play all characters in neutral due to the respect one had to give to their grab, the entire game devolved into only this aspect. Ice Climbers were the binary comeback mechanic the character, three singular reads with no counterplay from the opponent involved was all they needed to win. There are almost no incentives for fighting Lucario, because hitting him is actually a mistake for a lot of characters in this game, and much like in Brawl, the only way players will be able to deal with that is by timing him out. The characters in Brawl which aura was actually match up deciding had the exact same thing happen too, Pikachu and Sonic would only run away from him, choosing to fight was a mistake, and that's what every top level player of those characters would tell you. At least in Brawl, Lucario's capabilities did not get better, only his damage, a Lucario in a bad position could still be capitalised upon, his recovery was poor.

Comeback "mechanics" do not work in Smash Bros. They ruin the game and are going to continue to ruin the game.

(especially the part where they double up as an EXTREMELY OVERBEARING STOCK ADVANTAGE mechanic).

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, if you want to make a topic about how much you hate aura, go ahead.

We can fit it between the "rolling is op" and "counters are too powerful" threads.

I'll be the bad guy who points out that unactionable rants on the internet are, in fact, unactionable.

Time is better spent on things that affect our behavior moving forward.

Like, how's Lucario's matchup against Mario?

 

[A2ZOMG]

To be fair, Shaya clarified that the optimal strategy against Lucario for several characters is still to lame him out.

There isn't any serious matchup footage I'm aware of featuring Mario vs Lucario specifically, but under the context of Mario losing Jab cancel combos (and you could literally reverse U-smash Lucario out of Jab cancel in Brawl with perfect spacing/timing), Mario is only seriously winning this matchup with clutch early gimps.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

That's the super armor back slash, right? Yep, I use that also.

I hope I'm not the only **** here that uses power vision. That thing KO's. Hard. You can counter a simple jab or projectile and still KO at 50-80% anywhere but dash vision has some utility. Being placed under the opponent when used at lower %'s. Great against projectiles. Whatever.



Idk about Pacman. I think he's a better Mari--- Okay, let's not get there. I kinda don't get his grab though. Why is it a tether grab of all things? He would have been waaaay better Edit: Pacman's good

Power Vision is godlike. it kills insanely early especially if you run Hyper Monado Arts with it too and get a Smash-buffed counter. You basically never wanna even think about attacking Shulk when he has Smash enabled. As for his other custom specials, I don't like changing up Back Slash or Air Slash cause I think they're good enough as they are (although the Super Armour Back Slash is cool, I tend to spam Back Slash a bit too much and I'd end up leaving a lot of opening especially for a quick character like Mac or Sonic), but Hyper Monado Arts is a really, really good special for Shulk. As he's my main I know the character inside out and I'd argue his damage dealing even without Buster is decent especially with his nair spacing being able to wait out the cooldowns on arts, so Hyper Monado Arts (when used correctly) are ridiculously strong.

Pacman is a character I play quite a bit of and I thoroughly enjoy him. Down-B is the cornerstone of his competitive viability imo, and it most certainly wrecks For Glory pubs. Standing right in front of the hydrant and charging up a smash while Fox stands on the other side of the stage Blaster-spamming you and having those water gushes pushing you right into range for a fully charged smash is satisfying to the extreme.

 

[Thinkaman]

In Brawl, I normally went Ganondorf against random Lucarios. This strategy seems significantly more viable now.

As for Shulk, I'm also a believer in the Extreme Arts. A grab in Extreme Buster can convert to some really crazy damage at low %s, and Shulk is inclined to activate as many arts as possible anyway for maximum cancel hax.

 

[MechaWave]

Nah Lucario is a scrub character, I experienced that sentiment first hand not too long ago when I died from a sideB at ****ing 50% when that Lucario was one hit away from death, and I had to play defensively for no reason other than his gimmick.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm not sure if I can believe what I saw but power vision KO's Bowser at 0% if you counter his f-smash.

It just happened. I have no idea. I already knew this but it only happened once. I'm still at disbelief

Edit: Tried it again. Didn't work. I think I was at the edge of the stage when this happened


Palutena with lightweight reminds me of Shulk with Monado jump combined with Monado speed. Edit: Probably why she's my secondary

 

[Shaya]

I mean, if you want to make a topic about how much you hate aura, go ahead.

We can fit it between the "rolling is op" and "counters are too powerful" threads.

I'll be the bad guy who points out that unactionable rants on the internet are, in fact, unactionable.

Time is better spent on things that affect our behavior moving forward.

Like, how's Lucario's matchup against Mario?

I really hate both aura, and in turn the infinitely more accessible anecdotal evidence based off of rage showing me that most comebacks feel impossible in this game.

But if someone's going to say comeback mechanics are good, and that an implementation of one in Lucario's is remotely sensible, I'm going to bite.

 

[Thinkaman]

The core premise of Smash--only the kill hit matters--is an extreme comeback mechanism.

This is what makes Smash innately 5000x more interesting than other fighting games imo.

(I also think it makes aura and "rage" superfluous and unnecessary systems, but no one asked me.)

 

[MechaWave]

Why do people think of Rage as a big deal? Yes it's a pathetic mechanic but it also doesn't seem to inherently dictate the match, it stops stacking at 150% and afaik it only affects knockback. In the scope of a whole match I don't think Rage would be something that really is problematic. I don't like it but everyone makes it sound like you can instantly comeback with Rage when, simply put, you can't; it's only a tiny morsel of help.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why do people think of Rage as a big deal? Yes it's a pathetic mechanic but it also doesn't seem to inherently dictate the match, it stops stacking at 150% and afaik it only affects knockback. In the scope of a whole match I don't think Rage would be something that really is problematic. I don't like it but everyone makes it sound like you can instantly comeback with Rage when, simply put, you can't; it's only a tiny morsel of help.

Rage is pretty insignificant, and isn't really a comeback mechanic--it often helps the winner as well, in equally insignificant ways.

Really all rage does is slightly curtail match times of extreme cases.

 

[Loota]

Especially misguiding? Getting Side-B'd at 50% and dying at near maximum aura is pretty disgusting and not even remotely that potent in Brawl.

"Especially misguiding" as most of the cast doesn't struggle like that to get the kill or moreso let him live that long. I don't see anything wrong in that sideB kill at 50% (I doubt the Sheik in the video even had the right vectoring) at 170% as Lucario should be already dead at that point. It is an extreme punishment but it shouldn't happen in properly played high level matches.

Sheik does struggle to get the kill though, that's definitely true. But it is a broken mechanic, it doesn't add depth to the game and punishes the player for actually trying to hit you. Once they're at kill percent for you, your character is actually at a disadvantage due to the extreme damage differences and the momentum that Lucario can gather from a single hit. The range increases, the way that shield pushback scales in this game harder than before, and the fact that he starts killing at well under sub 100 with some of the longest ranged moves in the game makes very little sense. Edge guarding him becomes effectively useless as well, for NO REASON.

When Lucario enters the range of being in danger of being killed, it adds a choice of giving him more % to make killing him easier but at the same time, he gets also a bit stronger the more you rack the % up. On the other hand, you could be careful with crossing the point you're actually able to kill him with too much extra and making those kill moves count, and not letting him get any more powerful than he needs to be. There is definitely some balancing of risks going on depending on your character choice, confidence in landing those kill moves and confidence in being able to evade his. It does make the "normal playstyle" of automatically racking damage potentially dangerous, making you question if you should sometimes hit him at all and make every move count only towards making the kill, but that's perfectly acceptable in my opinion as this game is full of those kind of things. But yes, it's much easier on Lucario's side as he only needs to make sure to put in work when he's at high % or otherwise he's back to doing next to no damage at 0%.

Lucario's range doesn't increase with % except for Aura Sphere (+ it's charge) and sideB. Of course, upB gets longer too but it isn't a move you go in for a kill or any other time either (if any setups for it aren't discovered). SideB doesn't kill either (except for superlucky edgeguards) and it's really easy to react to and punish accordingly as it has abusable ending lag by most of the cast. He doesn't have any stand-out ranged kill moves besides AS and his moveset has been generally considered to have under average range.

His recovery on the other hand is indeed one of the best in the entire game. It's easy getting back to the stage (predictably upB'ing to a ledge is a surefire way to get trumped and lose your aura against some characters with good bairs) but it's not going to be automatically safe since he has got to land his upB before the animation ends as Lucario's mobility drops to near 0 in freefall. You do the edgeguarding against him on the stage or trumping ledges, not offstage. He is noticeably harder and different to edgeguard than normally though and in contrast it might look a little too good, as you said.

I wouldn't use the word vary at all. He DENIES those strategies out right with a thoughtless no drawback mechanic. All matches involved with him are completely binary, he either goes roughly even with characters with similar kill potential or gets given disgusting advantages on those who cannot. There's no abusing of a percent advantage on Lucario, something inherent to Smash Bros and any thing that ever contrasts with this is not enjoyed by the competitive scene at all.

It's like Lucario being really weak at low % is nothing, it's a definite weakness as being at high % is a definite strength even if the latter one can potentially be a devastating one. But still, you always have the chance to invalidate this strength forcing him to play at his weak state for more than he can bear. His aura mechanic's strengths and weaknesses are passive to the player itself as the opposing player will decide how much Lucario will spend in each state, the Lucario has just to deal with it and play accordingly.

Do you know who had a similar impact on the metagame (but admittedly in a more revolting way)? Ice Climbers. No character in the game had the risk/reward that ICs did, i.e. literal loss of a stock from any mistake, and ICs had all the tools to out play all characters in neutral due to the respect one had to give to their grab, the entire game devolved into only this aspect. Ice Climbers were the binary comeback mechanic the character, three singular reads with no counterplay from the opponent involved was all they needed to win. There are almost no incentives for fighting Lucario, because hitting him is actually a mistake for a lot of characters in this game, and much like in Brawl, the only way players will be able to deal with that is by timing him out. The characters in Brawl which aura was actually match up deciding had the exact same thing happen too, Pikachu and Sonic would only run away from him, choosing to fight was a mistake, and that's what every top level player of those characters would tell you. At least in Brawl, Lucario's capabilities did not get better, only his damage, a Lucario in a bad position could still be capitalised upon, his recovery was poor.

Yes, killing Lucario is somewhat same to dealing with IC's chaingrabs but only one of these will result in a guaranteed kill at any point of the game. As I said, Lucario's matchups itself can prove to be quite absolute to way or another, decided mostly by the other character's kill ability making the risk/reward ratio naturally very different for each character. Polarizing matchups have never been a problem (if you have both positives and negatives, of course, which a certain someone didn't have) as counterpicking has been a stable element thorough the series. Hitting him isn't such a universal mistake you make it to be, there's clearly times when you don't want to but putting it that way is just overly exaggerating. Also, running away to overcome a matchup disadvantage isn't suddendly unacceptable by any means.

Before I end my post, I want to say that I fully recognize the mechanic is stronger than it probably should be but it's not nearly as unfair, or even broken, as you make it to be. It only bothers me that it's usually described as something good that has absolutely no downsides or strategy. You can otherwise hate on it as much as you like though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Polarizing matchups have never been a problem (if you have both positives and negatives, of course, which a certain someone didn't have) as counterpicking has been a stable element thorough the series.

Because I seem to like arguing with everyone, I'll take issue with this.

Polarization is just as harmful to balance as generalized unfairness. Period.

If Terran always beat Zerg always beat Protoss always beat Terran, Starcraft would be an awful game that no one in their right mind would call "balanced" except in a trivial sense. It's "fair", but a polarized, unbalanced mess.

The goal of balance is all 5-5 matchups at all levels of play. Yes, that's an impossible goal, but what else is new? Everyone knows and accepts that perfect balance is impossible, and agrees that we should obviously still try and do the best we can. This is true of all aspects of matchup balance.

I think the polarization inherent in the mechanic is the main sin of aura. If it were up to me I'd probably get rid of it, and it would be primarily for this reason.

I was really worried about Little Mac, Villager, and Duck Hunt being potentially really polarized and screwing up the otherwise promising balance of Smash 4. At this time, things are looking somewhat safe; they don't seem to have as inherently polarized matchups as we (or at least I) initially suspected.

 

[Shaya]

I don't think rage has a negative affect as a comeback mechanic, but as a lead abuse skewer.

I just feel like finishing off someone (revenge kills / resets) are often really difficult. Your kill power is less by a noticeable margin than you were just before losing that stock, and the strength of being low percent (can take or trade a hit) is easily negated by the opponent being at kill percent.

It may be anecdotal, but it always looks like the person who took the first stock is often able to tack on 60-80% reliably before being taken down. More knockback = more hitstun, it's definitely pretty good on low percent opponents. Stuff like Falco's jab not being able to full combo on low percent opponents when he's also low percent, but can just freely jab those ****ers otherwise because "rage". Makes the first stock way too crazy, crazier than likely ever before. I suppose it also gives more relevance to heavies (Bowser, etc) who can revenge kill at 0% no problem.

 

[Loota]

Because I seem to like arguing with everyone, I'll take issue with this.

Polarization is just as harmful to balance as generalized unfairness. Period.

There is no much arguing with me since, yes, you're right about it being harmful to the general balance and I agree with it. I was basically only stating how the community has been totally okay with that in the past as the counterpick system exists and gives an opportunity to evade such problems (and, well, making some characters really unsafe picks on opponent's counterpick). And in that sense, the aura mechanic is indeed bad (if it really proves to be that polarizing) even if it doesn't break anything ingame.

 

[Tagxy]

Eh, its hard to characterize it as specifically a comeback mechanic or lead holder thingy yet. But at best the mechanic makes the game needlessly complex. Seems the smash series cant escape having one overtly pointless mechanic (64 & melee with l-cancelling and brawl with tripping).

Also @ ~ Gheb ~ the olimar named shane almost beat m2k game 3 in a tournament here in socal.

Now for this guy:

Im happy if pika goes under the radar atm. I think to an extent he suffers more than other characters on the 3ds. Pika seems like a fair character and very well rounded character. The verdict is still out but so far he seems capable of handling most MUs while also being able to be outplayed regardless of where he ends up on a tier list. He doesnt have any particularly "outstanding" attribute, the closest thing I can think of that has the potential for this are his bair/fair edgeguards (with interrupted multihits causing a spike affect, pika can use their good hitboxes to essentialy kamikaze dive into a recovering opponent with a hitbox and spike them, or interrupt it with the stage. Unless the recovery is very linear it should still require reads or particular set ups). His ability to avoid traps is better than other characters, but it was like that in Brawl too. I think his weaknesses and nerfs at least make up for this, which Ill get into next.

Pikachus overall damage output is lowered, with his hits typically doing less than before (worse than brawl better than melee). This is also coupled with the fact that his attacks kill later (not to be confused with ability to land kill moves). Additionaly, he also dies a lot earlier than he used to. This can lead to characters with strong single hit kill potential to take advantage off a good read (i.e. zeldas up-b can push pika into the air with its first hit then kill him around 50% with the second hit), especially if theyre fairly heavy themselves. [I feel this balances his ability to avoid traps and getting hit in general]

All of pikachus buffs are extremely subtle in their implementation but tend to have noteworthy effects. The most important buff came from the universal improvement on hitstun. In melee pikachu's attacks linked poorly, in Brawl they linked well but hitstun was barely too low on many follow ups. Now his attacks link well and hitstun traversed into the threshold that makes pikachu a combo monster.

The second most important buff is his speed improvement. Again while very minor, in Brawl there were many options unavailable due to falling barely short in his dash speed (its crazy how often dash upsmash hit powershields both for myself and in watching other pikas, and dash grabs just barely wiffed). His speed allows him to land those hits you felt you shouldve but just barely couldnt in Brawl.

Finally his third most important buff is his new dash attack. This might seem odd but its fairly significant, pikachus dash speed in brawl (whos improvement in smash 4 is also relevant here) gave him good approaches with shield, spot dodge, and grab. However he lacked a truly threatening attack option. No longer. In 64, melee, and Brawl dash attack was one of the easiest moves to land but commonly considered his worst move for various other reasons. Now with increased damage (one of the few moves damage output improved), a handy knockback angle, and kill potential; dash attack turns into a very viable option from dash. Coupled with his fast ground speed, dash grab, shielding, plus other options (spot dodge, SH dair, fair, uair, etc.) pikachu is allowed to play an extremely dangerous game of RPS out of dash.

Related to these three points, in general pikas ability to land kill hits is notably better even if his kill moves kill later, I feel if both characters are at kill percent pikachu should have a pretty decent advantage against most the cast particularly if dash attack is an option.

Few other buffs and nerfs here and there. I feel some of his hitboxes improved very slightly like nair and dair, though fair lost the hit on the tail but seems bigger at the head. QA stuff. Fsmash having good knockback at a distance is nice. Also I thought thunder was nerfed, but changed my mind after watching ESAMs outstanding use of it.

In regards to MUs, pika was extremely fortunate in that certain aspects from characters providing him his hardest MUs in brawl were nerfed, or the character was entirely removed. The latter being the case with ICs and former with diddy and olimar. While I cant say what the diddy MU will be like yet, what made him so difficult in brawl was pikachus very poor item play coupled with his bananas. Agree with shaya on ness and lucario in particular, I imagine like Brawl these MUs will be hard but not unmanagable (dont know enought about yoshi). Villager could also be tough. And I can confirm Rosalina has a hard time hitting pikachu.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Where to watch 3ds vids in order to learn game so as to enable partaking in discourse? I know about Tourney Locator and Clash Tournaments but surely there are other sources? I got the *** channel Gheb linked to as well.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Well I better stick up for this cheery guy because nobody else seems to want to.

I have read what Amazing Ampharos has to say about Pac and I disagree about some of the things he has said about Pac-man. For example, hydrant. For me, hydrant is as much a tool for distracting the opponent away from you as it is anything else. It has a lot of uses imo and, although it can be quite tricky to use, it can have great positive outcomes. For distracting people, I will often drop hydrants left, right and centre in an effort to annoy the opponent enough into trying to knock them away. By doing so, they leave themselves quite open from a Pac Bair or Fair. As an offensive tool, hydrant dashing is a situational, but godly tactic when done perfectly. A hydrant dashed Fsmash is often deadly. Hydrant is also great for stopping opponents approaching from underneath you.

I have also come to the conclusion that a lot of Pacs moves are massively rewarding for reads. Power Pellet is a solid kill move and with a good read, will land you KOs. The fact you get to decide exactly what direction it goes in rewards you massively for a read and its also a great recovery tool. Another great reading tool is his bonus fruit. He has so many good options for fruit in Orange, Apple and Key that your opponent may not be sure which one you will choose. This can be capitalised on by throwing out a nice variety of fruit so your opponent never knows if you will continue charging. However, the best fruit for reads is the Melon. Dragontamer sums it up nicely so I will quote his post:

The goal of Melon is rarely to ever actually hit the opponent, but instead used to force them to do something.

* If they Shield, you grab them.
* If they roll backwards, Melon hits them. Follow up with a combo.
* If they roll forward, up-smash them.
* If they catch the Melon, running-attack them immediately.
* If they shorthop over it, fair-fair-tilt combo
* If they full-jump over it, up-air them.

Plenty of followups there. Finally, in terms of other moves, his dash attack cancels straight into an ftilt, his throws are pretty decent and since not everyone will be expecting you to grab them, you can use this to your advantage by grabbing them as often as possible, his tilts are all solid, especially the rapid ftilt, his aerial game is again, solid with only the dair being somewhat lacklustre and his jab also being fairly good at keeping opponents out of your grille.

So those are his positive attributes. I feel Pac will probably be an upper-mid character. Even though he is predictable, he does reward good reads. His main weaknesses are going to come from characters like Yoshi who simply destroy him. Pac does well or evenly (in my inexperienced and probably not very good opinion) against characters such as Little Mac, C. Fal, Ganondorf, Sheik (even), Bowser, and Mario (even). His worst matchups are RosaLuma, Yoshi, ZSS, normal Samus and anyone with a spammy projectile on a flat stage (Maybe I am just bad, idk).

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Bull**** character design makes you happy?

Lucario's aura mechanic would be fine if his recovery was subpar, but considering his general durability and the way upb scales with aura it just ends up rewarding the player for taking damage. That's stupid no matter how you slice it.

That's not stupid. You have a choice of killing the opponent without taking much damage, or the option (or backup plan) of taking lots of damage without dying, and then killing the opponent. There's strategy and both options are appealing in their own way. It's not rewarding them for taking damage at all; that's how the character was balanced. Becoming stronger when taking more damage is PART of the character's ability to stand up to others.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Continuing my impressions after playing a few more days:



Pit seems to be in relatively the same boat tier wise as he was before, probably mid to high mid. He will have solidly nuetral matchups against the majority of the cast, with the exceptions being having distinct advantages against the bottom chunk of the tier list and one or two top/high tier characters that shut him down.

Pit's saving grace in this game seems to be a combination of great range and relative speed on tilts and the improvements to multihit moves, making his damage racking better and his F-Smash a great kill move. His recovery is still godly, and edge gaurding him can be challenging for most characters. However I see two characters keeping Pit from being a solidly top tier character.

Rosalina has been discussed before as one of his weakness and I agree. She shuts him down pretty hard. While he can hurt Luma at a decent pace, most of his moves and damage racking potential involve multi hits or otherwise commit him too long, making him easy to punish. Ignoring lLma isnt a real option either, as he isn't fast enough or strong enough in the air to break through. Rosalina beats him in the air overall. If you manage to get rid of Luma, the match evens out as Pit then can win on the ground, but outside of that 8 seconds this is a distinctly one sided match.

Lucario will also be a problem. While he had a slight advantage in brawl, in S4 he seems much harder to deal with. The only thing that stopped Lucario matches in Brawl from being one sided was his sub par recovery that Pit could take advantage of. With that no longer being the case and Pit still having issues finishing off opponents, Lucario is almost guaranteed to get to full aura every stock, and that makes for one solidly dead angel.



Palutena is going to be one of the most tech heavy characters in the game. Her defaults are subpar outside of matchups with campy characters, but the reality is, Super Speed is no joke. That has been disccused a lot already though. Hit confirm KOs with her are legit, too. What hasn't had as much attention is Lightweight.

Lightweight makes Palutena's recovery argueable the best in the game. More importantly then that though is how fast she then moves and her jumps on stage. Being able to knock someone up and kill off the top with Uair at 50-60% is a reality, and she need only commit one full hop to get almost all the way to the fully zoomed camera edge (on BF/FD) to do so. That and her air game is solid regarless of early off the top kill potential, which lightweight allows full abuse of.

Yes her tilts are bad, so don't use them! Her jab, dash attack, and throws are not. Those saying that she will be bottom tier arn't being objective. Low tier is a huge stretch too given the potential of her options. The WORST I see her as if all these shenanigans somehow prove gimmicky is the bar of entry to mid tier. However she may end up as far as brushing on the border of high.



His zoning his great. His aerials are solid. His recovery, not so much. But his stage presence is good enough that he will not fall out of mid tier. His kit is solid, with only a handful of characters being able to resist his projectile game, and even then usually not all of it. What will always keep DH as a solid character though is his potential for midgames, many of which are Win/Win for him anyway.

As his playstyle is developed it will become more valuable to play him as an aggressive zoner that punishes you regardless of how you react to his bombs/clay pigeon/gunman. He will always force you to commit. He has a few bad matchups cropping up, but most of them feel more a matter of inexperience with the meta or skill level differences rather then true disadvantages, even against the strong rushdown characters.

He may be high tier. But at worst a steady mid tier whose potential is capped only by how well he reads opponents.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I find the comparison between Ike and Shulk to be hasty and superficial. I don't think they are as similar as it seems - it's mostly nair -> jab and their dash attacks that makes it look that way but there are actually fundamental differences in their play imo.

Anyways I forget which page after going through 15 or so and seeing Shaya/Gashi btfo tero, but somebody mentioned how Yoshi was impossible to deal with/broken.
What I find funny is people have no idea how he was in brawl then I guess, cause he's practically almost the same character outside of finally getting OoS options, less eggtoss jumps, two changes in moves (DA and Usmash) and losing DJCs. Otherwise his mobility feels the same his KO options are the same outside of Fsmash being able to completely whiff if the enemy is living in his nose, and hell, he even lost 3 points in weight with Ike taking his spot. (not that I'm complaining he's still heavy).

I'm definitely on the Yoshi hype train. If there is one character that has a realistic chance at snatching Rosalina's #1 spot in the tier list it has to be Yoshi imo. And I'm not a stranger to this character, neither in Brawl nor in Smash 4.

You mention Yoshi's new ability to jump out of shield as if it were just some random buff like any other. As somebody who has played Yoshi in Brawl you should know better than most other people how much of an improvement that is. Most Yoshi players used to rightfully argue that a "regular" shield would've made Yoshi a viable character in Brawl - just imagine being able to jump out of shield against MK, Snake, Diddy Kong, Wario, ZSS, Peach, Toon Link or the space animals. The difference would have been tremendous as these characters were tough for Yoshi largely -if not solely- because of his shield mechanics. And that's not taking any of Yoshi's other buffs into account.
You did not mention that Yoshi's mid-air jump rises faster now. Aerial egg toss can link into double jump uair now thanks to Yoshi's now double jump [and slightly buffed hitstun]. Jab to usmash is also borderline guaranteed on like half the cast and if the opponent isn't on the ground while getting jabbed I think it's actually a true combo. In other words: Yoshi has TWO reliable and powerful KO setups ouf of moves that are safe on block, roll, spotdodge AND airdodge. The only character I know is able to do something similar is Fox who can combo spaced weak hit nair into dash usmash.

You are very much correct though when you say that people have no idea how Yoshi worked in Brawl - this actually applies to Yoshi players as well! I still remember how Yoshi mains used to marvel about how good his camping game supposedly was. But Yoshi's camping game was actually PATHETIC. What nobody seemed to realize though was that Yoshi's offensive capabilities were actually really good. Not only was Yoshi very good at punishing spotdodges but he also had the ability to straight up IGNORE his opponent's shield game. The only defensive option that you could rely on against Yoshi was rolling away from him. The key to beating Yoshi for almost every character was to force him into a defensive position from where his laughable shield and rolls would leave him helpless. Now that Yoshi has a usable shield this option no longer exists. Yet at the same time Yoshi's offensive capabilities are stronger than ever. Egg Lay - one of the lamest and most underrated moves in Brawl - has been buffed. Moreover though, his Dash Attack has been improved to a point where it can consistently punish backward rolls. That means that there's not a single defensive option in this game that's truly safe against this character anymore! Now do the math and add up all of Yoshi's strong selling points and see how powerful he is. Then you look for his weaknesses and tell me if you can find any because I can't.

Seriously, this character is going to be a nightmare for nearly anybody to fight against.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shielding and REACTIVELY spotdodging is extremely safe against Yoshi. His offensive game is fundamentally not that good. He's good at punishing commitments and gets really high reward for it compared to most characters in this game, so he's really hard to approach. But in all seriousness, it is not hard to turtle against Yoshi if he's behind. Learn the animation for Egg Lay, then spotdodge when he actually goes for it. Worst case scenario, you're only out of range to punish it due to his air mobility. He's not landing Dashgrab on you either similarly. You don't need to guess to turtle against Yoshi. You just need competitive reactions. There's reasons why Brawl Bowser didn't dominate tiers in spite of having a strong and safe aerial command grab that theoretically ignored shield and spotdodge like nothing.

Yoshi's D-air is honestly a better response to shield than Egg Lay, because you can neither spotdodge it, powershield, and you need a rather full shield to tank it, and rolling isn't even guaranteed to get you out of the hits either.

Sonic has a way better chance of being #1 than Yoshi in comparison, because it's a pure guess to defend against his approach with the threat of his dashgrab and whatever other moves he wants to use, and the risk/reward is generally in his favor in terms of damage and KO setups.