Character Competitive Impressions

[Pazzo.]

If "a force to be contended with" = bottom tier then yes... he is a force to contended with.

Ok, I was vague..

Olimar's Red or Purple Pikmin B-Air comes out quickly and covers good range.

D-Tilt at low percents sets up for N-Air follow ups, an effective hit and run tactic.

So while "A force to be contended with" is hyperbole, he's far from useless. But I've only had the game for a few weeks, so I could be wrong or change my mind in a few months.

Double post, please ignore.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Holy crap. Grand Finals of this tournament was Diddy vs a MII FIGHTER?!

Also said Mii fighter destroyed the Lucario in this video

I mentioned Mii Brawler in my anti- Bowser rant.
Dudes really good
2/3 Up B customs are wicked K.O options, Piston Punch stands out the most given it has the best recovery.
Shotput and Ultimate uppercut are both valid. Ultimate is certainly again a K.O option.
You are slotting Onslaught...an Approach, K.O option, really good.
Feint Jump and Foot Flurry are both good, Foot Flurry also Kills.

He can have a K.O option in every special slot. His F-smash is ridiculously powerful (laggy as all hell). His down tilt is great, up tilt is good as well, ftilt is decent. His aerials aren't bad either. Dtilt, utilt, U-air? Im down for it.

At least I think he's good. I've said Gunner is the medium between him and Sword Fighter, but I hear a couple of players around me want to try him out.

I think more should play with the Brawler a bit more, but I guess if you stick to FG they won't get to play with him. I think people in the Brawler section are trying to ascertain the most competitive weight/height of Brawler to make.

Agreed. It's okay but that's it.

Luckily for him he's so heavy that he can stay onstage for a long time.



I agree that I don't think he's as bad as people are saying. Stone actually seems pretty good in this game, though can't be used too predictably of course. I also think his normals are pretty decent, and he can go super deep for gimps.

I don't expect high tier, but I wouldn't tend to guess bottom tier either. Probably either lower mid or low.

I don't know about stone, the customs all have some stupid drawback too that's basically "Harder to confirm/get punished even worse" on an ability that isn't all that easy to confirm and is very punishable...

To me Smash 4 is an off-stage game centered on using aerials for blast zone/gimping rather than relying on stage presence. Which is why Lil Mac is situated to the ground because he's supposed to give that all up (well he still has footstools) to rely on stage presence. Kirbys still relevant to me because he does have off-stage presence. Maybe im wrong as hell, but only reason anyone lives long in Smash 4 is fear of SDing when going for the off-stage chase. It's what I think Olimar really has going for him is the ability to chase anyone, and make it back due to Pinkmin but that AI....

 

[SonicZeroX]

From the video it looks like he's using the shortest + fattest combination which people seem to think is the optimal combo since being tall has huge drawbacks and being fat seems to be strictly better than being skinny for some reason.

It would be a shame if default height/width was forced in tournaments resulting in non-optimal and weaker Miis.

 

[popsofctown]

Fatties have slower dash speed and drift speed.
Short miis get less range on moves that use their arms and legs, but have a smaller hurtbox. Unless I'm hallucinating about the former.

 

[Artero]

I still can't decide who to main. Been doing pretty well with Kirby, but when up against a skill-full opponent his weaknesses do become blatantly obvious and you really have to rely on your ability to react (and duck ). Really want to put most of time in a character that's at least competitively viable and I'm doubting Kirby will fall into that category (for 1v1 anyway).

 

[nurovi]

Nah, no way. Watch the Japanese or NJ/NY streams. That's where it's at.

Where would I go about finding said streams?

also, hi everyone

 

[Terotrous]

Anyway, we've been talking about Fox over the last few pages, and I'd like to take a moment to discuss his fellow space animal, Falco. Most people seem to feel he is bottom 3, but I just don't see it. Yes, laser got nerfed (even then, that laser custom that sucks you in seems kind of promising). Beyond this, though, I'm not seeing bottom 3. He's still nicely mobile in the air and has good aerials, his SHFF is still really fast and good, DSmash and jab are still good, and the rest of his grounded normals seem at least okay. He also got the same huge recovery buff that Fox got. What exactly makes him so abysmally bad?

 

[Thinkaman]

Anyway, we've been talking about Fox over the last few pages, and I'd like to take a moment to discuss his fellow space animal, Falco. Most people seem to feel he is bottom 3, but I just don't see it. Yes, laser got nerfed (even then, that laser custom that sucks you in seems kind of promising). Beyond this, though, I'm not seeing bottom 3. He's still nicely mobile in the air and has good aerials, his SHFF is still really fast and good, DSmash and jab are still good, and the rest of his grounded normals seem at least okay. He also got the same huge recovery buff that Fox got. What exactly makes him so abysmally bad?

I think it's playstyle whiplash. Smash 4 Falco is clearly a solid character with all the right tools and foundations--he's just plays a lot different from both Melee and Brawl.

I do think he is lackluster compared to certain other characters (however solid) including Fox and Sheik, UNTIL you add in Void Reflector, which is an incredible move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falco is yet another one of those characters who just makes me realize just how terrible and outclassed Mario is on default settings...But yeah. Falco is clearly good. Can't be camped, GREAT footsies, good recovery, good aerials, AMAZING damage per hit. Yeah seriously, it's impossible for this character to be bad.

 

[NairWizard]

Most satisfying thing about Falco is trying to gimp people by side-b'ing off the stage, and then recovering successfully

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Falco is yet another one of those characters who just makes me realize just how terrible and outclassed Mario is on default settings...But yeah. Falco is clearly good. Can't be camped, GREAT footsies, good recovery, good aerials, AMAZING damage per hit. Yeah seriously, it's impossible for this character to be bad.

I fail to see the while Mario thing buy I think we've gone more than far enough down that road so...

Anyways, Falco. Lasers suck now (the windbox one isn't even that good imo...) and he lost his Dacus (important later on but not now really) but yeah he solid. Amazing at CQC, got great options. He definitely has a lot of kill options even with Dair being as hard to use as it is now. One thing that I really hate about him is just how slow he is, especially in the air. However, his air game is still pretty great given his nice aerials (all are good) and HOLY HELL HIS JUMPS.

Seriously, his best trait imo is his gigantic vertical jumps. It allows him to edgeguard well, especially now that phantasm doesn't send you to free fall. Its also great for spacing and aerial control.

F tilt, bair, d tilt, jab, and his jumps alone make him solid. He's a fantastic boxer. A tad slow imo, but he has power.


The lack of sex kicks tho... That's more of an annoyance for me cuz Nair and bair are a huge part of my melee Falco but oh well. Blue bird is still good now. Very solid. Not amazing by any means, but certainly not bad. The most satisfyingly solid character in the game imo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I fail to see the while Mario thing buy I think we've gone more than far enough down that road so...

It's really simple. Falco for the large part has moves that aren't slower than Mario's, that have better hitboxes, and better damage per hit.

Falco's HUGE damage per hit is actually imo one of the big reasons he's a better character than people realize. Yes he has good normals, but the fact his tilts do 9%, his aerials all average like 12%, and his Smashes do 15% is actually sorta insane when you realize how low general damage per hit is in this game.

Hell, even Reflector got buffed to do 5% this game. In a game where it's not uncommon for individual hits to be like 7%, that really isn't a joke.

 

[Thinkaman]

Mario kills better though, has a great OoS option, better throws, and--hey, wait a second!

Oh, you!

You almost got us to talk about Mario more!

 

[The Real Gamer]

Mario kills better though, has a great OoS option, better throws, and--hey, wait a second!

Oh, you!

You almost got us to talk about Mario more!

We've finally circumvented the trap.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

What about ? This guy needs some attention, good or bad.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What about ?

Smooth Criminal

Most overpowered crouch taunt in game and needs a nerf.
I dont know why they let Gordo's be hit back as it's really not necessary to give him that hindrance.

DDD, DK, Charizard...and fat Mii Brawler are those Heavies that Bowser stole attention from.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Most overpowered crouch taunt in game and needs a nerf.

True, true. Brooooooken as hell. People seem to SD on their last stock when I resort to this. Samurai plz patch.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thinkaman]

What about ? This guy needs some attention, good or bad.

This was a point of debate between me and Ampharos; he thought DDD was relatively weak, I think he is pretty decent. So I played against him as DDD some online and did pretty well. He argued that DDD doesn't have much of a future though, and I can see that argument--I'm not sure exactly how DDD's relatively simple (if effective) game will develop. I also think DDD might gain the least (or close to it) from moving to a GCN controller. (Contrast with say, Robin or Jigglypuff or Palutena or Fox or Peach or...)

Slightly Bold Statement: As people get more experienced at the game, no move will drop in value more than Gordo Toss.

SH bair auto-cancels though. It's really good!

Also, his jab is just fantastic. The finisher is a potent kill move!

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Donkey Kong may become the poster boy for the heavies

 

[A2ZOMG]

This was a point of debate between me and Ampharos; he thought DDD was relatively weak, I think he is pretty decent. So I played against him as DDD some online and did pretty well. He argued that DDD doesn't have much of a future though, and I can see that argument--I'm not sure exactly how DDD's relatively simple (if effective) game will develop. I also think DDD might gain the least (or close to it) from moving to a GCN controller. (Contrast with say, Robin or Jigglypuff or Palutena or Fox or Peach or...)

Slightly Bold Statement: As people get more experienced at the game, no move will drop in value more than Gordo Toss.

SH bair auto-cancels though. It's really good!

Also, his jab is just fantastic. The finisher is a potent kill move!

One thing that appears to be undermentioned is just the fact that DDD has multiple jumps. Makes a huuuuge difference because it means certain traps that would work easily on other heavies (or other characters for that matter) are suddenly less simple to execute on him.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Bowser, DK, Ganon, and Charizard are all looking like legitimately good, fully viable characters. DDD doesn't seem far behind, not much of a gap between those and him.

One thing that appears to be undermentioned is just the fact that DDD has multiple jumps. Makes a huuuuge difference because it means certain traps that would work easily on other heavies (or other characters for that matter) are suddenly less simple to execute on him.

This comes at the cost of less mobility otherwise though. He's often the easiest to juggle character.

It remains to be seen how effective his customs are at helping his exploitable recovery.

Edit: This is a source of benefit to having a GCN controller though, which I overlooked.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don’t think the Gordos'll be devalued so much as they'll occupy a match-up specific niche over time. However, I DO believe that there are some aspects to this projectile that remain to be quantified in terms of its intrinsic properties, so we'll see.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thinkaman]

I don’t think the Gordos'll be devalued so much as they'll occupy a match-up specific niche over time. However, I DO believe that there are some aspects to this projectile that remain to be quantified in terms of its intrinsic properties, so we'll see.

It's not an awful move, but it's a great move today and almost certainly won't be 3 months from now.

 

[Morbi]

This was a point of debate between me and Ampharos; he thought DDD was relatively weak, I think he is pretty decent. So I played against him as DDD some online and did pretty well. He argued that DDD doesn't have much of a future though, and I can see that argument--I'm not sure exactly how DDD's relatively simple (if effective) game will develop. I also think DDD might gain the least (or close to it) from moving to a GCN controller. (Contrast with say, Robin or Jigglypuff or Palutena or Fox or Peach or...)

Slightly Bold Statement: As people get more experienced at the game, no move will drop in value more than Gordo Toss.

SH bair auto-cancels though. It's really good!

Also, his jab is just fantastic. The finisher is a potent kill move!

I respectfully disagree with that sentiment. I wholeheartedly believe that a worthless move cannot drop in value.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's not an awful move, but it's a great move today and almost certainly won't be 3 months from now.

Well then, FINE.

Doo doo head.

Smooth Criminal

 

[popsofctown]

That moment when you realize Nintendo DIDN'T buff Dedede's projectile in Smash 4.

 

[RWB]

;_;

Dededooo....

How is Peach looking? Is she average, bad or even on the good side?

 

[A2ZOMG]

;_;

Dededooo....

How is Peach looking? Is she average, bad or even on the good side?

Above average. Top tiers from previous game were nerfed. Peach still has good damage and hitboxes, floating, item tossing, a solid recovery.

 

[Pokedex649]

I don't understand why everyone's saying Little Mac's so good. Literally every character (including himself) has a 0-death against him. I even once got creative with Olimar on a 0-death. Ike's against him is just a back throw, waiting for him to double-jump to you, and then f-smashing.



As for Olimar, he has potential, BUT the learning curve has been proving to be a bit of a problem. Olimar is bad, but can match up to high tier characters in the right hands.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I don't understand why everyone's saying Little Mac's so good. Literally every character (including himself) has a 0-death against him. I even once got creative with Olimar on a 0-death. Ike's against him is just a back throw, waiting for him to double-jump to you, and then f-smashing.

You haven't fought a good Mac, then.

 

[M15t3R E]

You haven't fought a good Mac, then.

Maybe it's because I play fast characters like Pikachu and Greninja and I can read well, but I have never had trouble against a Little Mac. Yet, I do hear everybody clamoring about how good he is... *sigh*

 

[Pokedex649]

You haven't fought a good Mac, then.

I guess you have a fairly good point. However, even with skilled mains, I don't see a bright future for Mac.

 

[TimeSmash]

Peach is probably the most glitchy/ exploit character currently, or at least one of the most (here's looking at you, Wario) and I absolutely love it. Psuedo Float Cancelling, a disappearing graphic but remaining hitboxes, spawning turnips in the center of the stage, and doing super weird crap with air-dodge cancelled turnip down tosses that actually work in this game? Yeah alright.

P.S. WFT, Zelda, and Jiggs get SO much better in doubles

 

[Spinosaurus]

Mac has arguably the best footsies in the game and dominates the ground far too much for him to go anywhere but up as time goes on imo.

 

[Thinkaman]

Peach floating aerials also do not stale.

 

[TimeSmash]

Peach floating aerials also do not stale.

YES. I knew I was forgetting something.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Maybe it's because I play fast characters like Pikachu and Greninja and I can read well, but I have never had trouble against a Little Mac. Yet, I do hear everybody clamoring about how good he is... *sigh*

I can totally see those characters taking the wind outta Mac's sails. Still, he's not a character I would sleep on. Conversely, one bad read from you and you're going to eat a lot of damage.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Pokedex649]

I can totally see those characters taking the wind outta Mac's sails. Still, he's not a character I would sleep on. Conversely, one bad read from you and you're going to eat a lot of damage.

Smooth Criminal

Although, to be fair, Little Mac is quite easy to read, with him having few approaching options.

 

[Starbound]

I'm of the opinion that Peach is the character we're all sleeping on.

From my experience as a Rosalina player, Peach's float pretty much invalidates Luma in the matchup and I think she's perhaps the best way to defeat Rosalinas. Luma can't stay still in the air unless you spam attacks to keep him floating, and that's just begging to get punished. Grounded Lumas can be floated over really easily and Peach wrecks Luma the same way Sheik and Greninja do.

I honestly think Peach is high tier in this game. She's essentially only been buffed from Brawl in terms of her game plan (slower turnips are a thing but Peach players have discovered ATs to get around that), and the environment is much kinder to her in this game where her problematic opponents are nerfed (MK and Falco) or removed (Snake). Sheik and Lucario are going to be problematic but I do think she's one of the more viable characters outside of the Sheik, Rosaluma, ZSS, Lucario and Greninja fivesome.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Although, to be fair, Little Mac is quite easy to read, with him having few approaching options.

That is very true, and it is one of the many reasons why I think Mac isn't the absolute best tippy top tier in this game.

Looking at you, @ Terotrous . :V

Also, yeah, Peach has some untapped potential. Can't wait to see Peach mains streamline her tech with the GCN controller.

Smooth Criminal