Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

Fox does have tourney results he is placing fairly high wherever he goes and often gets pulled out as a counter-pick or to even up a matchup that the players main can't contend with.

Which tournies? I will watch some of them later.

Yoshi handedly ate Ganons food. Wasn't even close in the second game and only comes off that way because of the choke suicide.

That's not really the point. It was being phrased as though Yoshi literally can't be touched at all if he plays properly, which is clearly not the case. Most of his options do have commitment to them and can get punished. Bowser's grounded UpB in particular is pretty good at stuffing or punishing Yoshi.

 

[A2ZOMG]

He's basically the first good heavyweight character the series has ever had.

Captain Falcon in Melee is heavy, and competitively viable. If barely so.

King Dedede was pretty viable outside of getting trolled by Falco, Olimar, and Metaknight as I recall. And other people mentioned Snake.

Bowser...honestly isn't as good as those characters. It's unfortunate for him, because his design is too fair for his own good. Bowser doesn't really have anything dishonest to screw with you in Smash. He just wants to win the game conventionally fair and square, which he'd do easily minus the fact being huge gives him counterplay, and probably too much of it.

God****, no wonder why Bowser gets defeated by Mario all those times. Always playing fair and honest, except in Paper Mario that one time where he stole the Star Rod.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Definitely not 90% on anyone other than Jigglypuff, even then I'd be surprised if it killed her. It's generally more like 110-125% on most of the cast.

Of course, Rage is a factor. May be closer to 110% if at Max Rage, but Fox is kind of light so he rarely gets to 150%.

Freshness matters. See Brawl for more details.

No, like I said, that's how it should work. The problem is there's some characters who basically get to rack up huge damage and have good KO power too. In general, to reach top tier, you have to break the game to some degree. There may be some argument for him reaching high tier (which requires you to be a fairly complete character), if he puts in the tournament results.

Not talking about whether or not Fox is top tier here. I guess you get the gist, however.

You should probably check out the Yoshi vs Ganondorf video from a page back. It seems fairly clear that that player is the best Yoshi (certainly I've never seen anyone even close to that good with him, he runs circles around Awestin), and yet Ganondorf (who is clearly not as mobile or as safe as bowser) is still able to kick him in the face on many occasions. His game still does have some holes, and he is not totally safe on everything. He generally relies on his mobility to mix people up, but you can still get read.

Reads are nebulous, player-specific. Citing a single match-up is moot (especially one where the Ganon got his **** pushed in after the Yoshi adjusted). Nobody is safe on everything in this game. Et cetera, et cetera. I get that.

Shame on you for assuming absolutes, and assuming I was. I don't think the matchup is unwinnable, just not in Bowser's ****ing favor. Mobility is a big thing in the matchup whether you think it is or not. Yoshi's great normals, ability to pressure, and set tempo is important.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

Bowser...honestly isn't as good as those characters. It's unfortunate for him, because his design is too fair for his own good. Bowser doesn't really have anything dishonest to screw with you in Smash. He just wants to win the game conventionally fair and square, which he'd do easily minus the fact being huge gives him counterplay, and probably too much of it.

I would definitely put Captain Falcon in the "fair" tier too, he has clear strengths and weaknesses.

However, being a fair character doesn't necessarily ban you from high tier, as long as you have the tools you need to overcome those weaknesses, and IMO Bowser has this in his armor. Keeping him out isn't just as simple as "stick out some fast hitboxes / projectiles because of this.

Shame on you for assuming absolutes, and assuming I was. I don't think the matchup is unwinnable, just not in Bowser's ****ing favor. Mobility is a big thing in the matchup whether you think it is or not.

Pretty much all matchups come down to two things:

How well can the characters build damage on each other
How well can the characters land KOs on each other

Yoshi builds damage on Bowser easily, I agree with that. However, I don't think he lands KOs on Bowser especially well, certainly not as easy as on some other characters. I don't think Bowser really has trouble with either portion. He may trade with Yoshi on some of his moves, but basically any trade is a win for Bowser, and he has far more viable KO moves.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Bowser fair nah. He has his own foolishness but you aim to avoid getting bowser sided FTL by abusing his size. Even Kirby can go ham on Bowser which is bad cus Kirby has some of the most lagless tilts and aerials in the game so RIP. You don't want to be something Kirby combos.

Yoshi doesn't lack K.O potential. Bowser is the heaviest after Shield Shulk he is supposed to be hard to K.O. btw Shulk > Bowser come at me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I would definitely put Captain Falcon in the "fair" tier too, he has clear strengths and weaknesses.

However, being a fair character doesn't necessarily ban you from high tier, as long as you have the tools you need to overcome those weaknesses, and IMO Bowser has this in his armor. Keeping him out isn't just as simple as "stick out some fast hitboxes / projectiles because of this.

Minus Falcon's kinda ridiculously stupid N-air, yeah. I think I can mostly agree he's a fair and honest character.

Last time I checked though, Bowser's armor didn't help him against projectiles. He HAS to shield them, which means he isn't fully benefiting from his mobility. And the fact he's so god**** huge means he can be projectile zoned and trapped in positions that other characters don't normally worry about. That's why he gets bodied by projectiles.

Bowser fair nah. He has his own foolishness but you aim to avoid getting bowser sided FTL by abusing his size. Even Kirby can go ham on Bowser which is bad cus Kirby has some of the most lagless tilts and aerials in the game so RIP. You don't want to be something Kirby combos.

Bowser's only sorta "unfair" and "dishonest" in Brawl with his grab release shenanigans and debatably Klaw hopping. What I'm getting at is for the large part, Bowser's movepool has a clear direction and a way it should be used and played against in Smash.

 

[Terotrous]

Bowser fair nah. He has his own foolishness but you aim to avoid getting bowser sided FTL by abusing his size. Even Kirby can go ham on Bowser which is bad cus Kirby has some of the most lagless tilts and aerials in the game so RIP. You don't want to be something Kirby combos.

No one should seriously be considering Bowsercide as part of what makes the character good. That's like saying "Little Mac is top tier because dash attack". His quality lies in his pokes, strong KO moves, and armor (actually, that's true for Mac too).

Last time I checked though, Bowser's armor didn't help him against projectiles.

He can armor through some of the weaker ones, like lemons and probably needles.

He HAS to shield them, which means he isn't fully benefiting from his mobility.

Shield is so fast now that shielding most projectiles isn't a big disadvantage. He can also UpB OOS to punish at some ranges. Of course, clanking projectiles with Jab or UpB is also an option.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

No one should seriously be considering Bowsercide as part of what makes the character good. That's like saying "Little Mac is top tier because dash attack". His quality lies in his pokes, strong KO moves, and armor (actually, that's true for Mac too).

Bowser side is a pocket strat when available. Its mediated by the ability to wrack up a damage advantage on Bowser easily. What are you getting at?

A2Z I'll agree with you on direction.

The long and short is for Bowsers strengths he has clear abusable weaknesses that keep him level with the cast so he lacks favorable matchups.

 

[PK Gaming]

Captain Falcon in Melee is heavy, and competitively viable. If barely so.

King Dedede was pretty viable outside of getting trolled by Falco, Olimar, and Metaknight as I recall. And other people mentioned Snake.

Bowser...honestly isn't as good as those characters. It's unfortunate for him, because his design is too fair for his own good. Bowser doesn't really have anything dishonest to screw with you in Smash. He just wants to win the game conventionally fair and square, which he'd do easily minus the fact being huge gives him counterplay, and probably too much of it.

God****, no wonder why Bowser gets defeated by Mario all those times. Always playing fair and honest, except in Paper Mario that one time where he stole the Star Rod.

Why couldn't Smash Mario be this awesome

 

[Terotrous]

Bowser side is a pocket strat when available. Its mediated by the ability to wrack up a damage advantage on Bowser easily. What are you getting at?

It's a shenanigan that works occasionally but it's certainly not the main crux of Bowser's strategy.

What I'm getting at is Bowsercide is a common For Glory strategy against (and used by) noobs, which may cause people to falsely believe that this is the core of his gameplan (see also Little Mac Dash Attack), but a competent Bowser will not pull it out nearly so often.

I think most early tier lists are basically just going to be "who wins on For Glory except inverted", because any character who has strong stuff is going to have a lot of noobs using them badly. We need to make sure not to base our opinions on what we've seen in For Glory unless it was against a player who clearly knew what they were doing. Tournaments and player matches vs good players are the much more reliable method of data gathering.

The long and short is for Bowsers strengths he has clear abusable weaknesses that keep him level with the cast so he lacks favorable matchups.

The thing is that so far, no one is really demonstrating that his size can be abused. It seems like 100% theory fighter based on the fact that his size would have been very disadvantageous in Brawl, without considering the numerous system changes that significantly mitigate this disadvantage.

It's pretty much totally undeniable that shielding is much safer than it used to be and that projectiles are not nearly as potent as they were in Brawl. So we have to take that into account when talking about the character. Some people are talking about this game as though SH Double Laser is still a thing. It's not.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The thing is that so far, no one is really demonstrating that his size can be abused. It seems like 100% theory fighter based on the fact that his size would have been very disadvantageous in Brawl, without considering the numerous system changes that significantly mitigate this disadvantage.

If anything, Bowser's size is technically a bigger problem (see what I did there?) in Smash 4, aka Super Trap and Footsies Bros for the 3DS and Wii-U.

Sure. Bowser is AMAZING at footsies. Like, SERIOUSLY good at playing footsies. That's great and all, until being huge means several characters literally can just try to not play that game against you, and especially with projectiles, they force you to block, grab you, and then we get to where Super Trap and Footsie Bros is a headache for Bowser. That's right, how does Bowser even deal with traps?

Now, it's not like Bowser is COMPLETELY without options in this game to land. He DID get some buffs, notably his D-air and airdodge are better tools for mixing up his landing in this game (though airdoding directly to the ground is bad). Plus, his ledge getup options are finally viable. But see, when you're as huge as Bowser, and you're playing against Link or Toon Link...yeah. Have fun playing this game.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Just gonna leave this here...

Fox can kill, according to my Training Mode tests, Bowser off the top of FD at 120% with no charge, but with rage. Up smash off.

Keep in mind that this is against a one of the heaviest characters, on a stage with a higher ceiling (at least it seems to me) and without the fresh move bonus.

Edit: Same conditions, Puff is out at 85

 

[Terotrous]

Now, it's not like Bowser is COMPLETELY without options in this game to land. He DID get some buffs, notably his D-air and airdodge are better tools for mixing up his landing in this game (though airdoding directly to the ground is bad). But see, when you're as huge as Bowser, and you're playing against Link or Toon Link...yeah. Have fun playing this game.

I will grant that Toon Link vs Bowser is probably 7-3 or worse, I brought that up in my first post about Bowser. Link is not quite as bad since he's less mobile, maybe 6-4. Other than that, who is it who can really lock you down with projectiles the same way? DHD can do some but I feel like he needs reads for his zoning game since his things have more cooldown, it's not like Toon Link which is just toss toss toss safe safe safe. ROB and Yoshi can pester Bowser for damage, but they don't gain as much advantage from their projectiles (particularly on block) and he should eventually be able to bulldog his way in. The only other character I can think of who may be able to do this is Pac-Man, I could see that possibly also being a bad matchup for Bowser (Galaga is lockdown for days, especially with Neutral 3) but the fruit has charge time.

 

[Terotrous]

Just gonna leave this here...

Fox can kill, according to my Training Mode tests, Bowser off the top of FD at 120% with no charge, but with rage. Up smash off.

Keep in mind that this is against a one of the heaviest characters, on a stage with a higher ceiling (at least it seems to me) and without the fresh move bonus.

Training mode dummies don't vector. Add like 25% for real kill percent.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Training mode dummies don't vector. Add like 25% for real kill percent.

25%?

How strong do you think vectoring is...

Also don't forget fresh move bonus.

Edit: idk if you saw my puff data. 85%

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin's projectiles are thrown out too slowly and are slow themselves to be a threat to anyone that's shielding, rolling, and jumping appropriately. Treat his projectiles like you would Zelda's Din's Fire, and count to about 7 for Thunder or 8 for Fire. Then have at it.

Robin really needed a good grab range and speed to get profit out of going into shield should someone get through the projectiles. But all he has is basically Dash Grab, Jab, SH Nair, Uair with tight spacing, Ftilt, and occasionally Dash Attack. It's tragic.

Hit the nail on the head, unfortunately. Robin might have a bunch of fancy tricks, but it's pointless.

Robin loses the only characters that matter in this game, which severely limits his/her viability.

...

Now I know how A2ZOMG feels like.

 

[Terotrous]

25%?

How strong do you think vectoring is...

Surprisingly strong, that's why people live so long in this game.

Also, does training mode properly apply the freshness bonus? It generally doesn't apply Stale Moves except within a single combo. It's really not a good place to test stuff in general because it's too inconsistent with knockback.

I suspect Bowser's actual UpSmash kill percent is between 135-145%, depending on the height of the vertical blastzone on the stage in question.

 

[epicgordan]

I really don't think Greninja has as good of combo game as Diddy...

And does Hydro Pump even gimp any of the top characters?

With the exception of Sheik, yes. Rosalina can as well, though that matchup will be based more on anticipating that Hydro Pump and timing that Gravitational Pull--and even then, a fair or bair could intercept GP and she'd die anyways.

In other words, Greninja struggles to gimp Sheik (it's not impossible given the startup lag on Vanish, but the timing will have to be extremely precise); his gimping potential is just about even against Rosalina (though she too wins the gimping wars with Greninja as he doesn't provide much answers against Rosalina's aerials); and Zero Suit Samus is by far the easiest to gimp (yes, she can still use her Down Special to get back down on the stage, but it's not going to help matters much if Hydro Pump cuts her off the stage). Greninja's strengths will only be made that much more prevalent when the Wii U version comes out and HP becomes that much easier to control and master.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Fresh move bonus is 1.05% training moves are all 1.00. A fresh move kills earlier unvectored in a real match.

People don't really live long in this game. People avoid damage in this game.
Which is to say % means less then connecting the hit. If you know them off stage and aren't little Mac and arguably Luigi you can kill em.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Surprisingly strong, that's why people live so long in this game.

Also, does training mode properly apply the freshness bonus? It generally doesn't apply Stale Moves except within a single combo. It's really not a good place to test stuff in general because it's too inconsistent with knockback.

I suspect Bowser's actual UpSmash kill percent is between 135-145%, depending on the height of the vertical blastzone on the stage in question.

Vectoring is actually surprisingly weak, certainly not as strong as former DI. Now crouch canceling is surprisingly potent, or so I hear, but I'm not too well versed on smash 4 cc'ing.

And fresh move bonus is tied to staling, so it isn't in training.

 

[Terotrous]

Fresh move bonus is 1.05% training moves are all 1.00. A fresh move kills earlier unvectored in a real match.

People don't really live long in this game. People avoid damage in this game.
Which is to say % means less then connecting the hit. If you know them off stage and aren't little Mac and arguably Luigi you can kill em.

They definitely also live pretty long. It's very uncommon to be killed outright at less than 120% unless it was like Little Mac or Bowser FSmash near the edge of the stage. In Melee there are tons of moves that can kill at 100%.

There's also a lot of recoveries in this game that are really safe.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hit the nail on the head, unfortunately. Robin might have a bunch of fancy tricks, but it's pointless.

Robin loses the only characters that matter in this game, which severely limits his/her viability.

...

Now I know how A2ZOMG feels like.

I think now as the game has matured, we can pretty much say that we once again have that dominant character archetype that is common with fighting games, with most of the characters either having powerful mechanics (Aura for Luc and the Luma for Rosalina) or have overall momentum in select areas (Greninja, Yoshi, Sheik, etc.) being the ones that are going to be mechanically gifted, for a lack of a better term.

At this time, I really need to just send my condolences to Kirby. He has to be, unfortunately, one of the worst characters (like, #2 worst, since Olimar exists) in the game from a competitive standpoint. Almost every single character above and even BELOW him does one, more, or all of his areas of combat (aerial, ground, projectile, grab, etc.) better than him. He's still agonizingly slow, his range got reduced (which was one of the few things he had going for him), and it seems like he has an unfavorable matchup to all but the "worst" characters in the game.

So...why do I still use him? That is a question...that I'll likely answer after my errands.

 

[Terotrous]

Vectoring is actually surprisingly weak, certainly not as strong as former DI.

It definitely seems a lot more potent than DI. I'd estimate vectoring can probably cancel about 10% of total knockback (which would allow Bowser to live about 15% longer at 120%).

If anyone wants to get exact numbers that might be useful, but I'm pretty sure what I posted is close to correct.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtqPHo0UZv8

Ending of game 1 is a perfect showcase of why Lucario is so dumb in this game.

 

[Terotrous]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtqPHo0UZv8

Ending of game 1 is a perfect showcase of why Lucario is so dumb in this game.

That must have been terrible vectoring. There's no way that killed at that percent.


Still, it'd be nice to have Lucario be a legitimate counter to Sheik. He'd probably be the only one.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Your bias is showing, brah.

 

[Terotrous]

Your bias is showing, brah.

You can generally tell just by how fast she's sent flying that she should have survived it. Attacks at that speed and angle just shouldn't kill. I'm sure the Sheik player wasn't even considering the possibility that that move could kill.

Granted, I'll admit I do have anti-Sheik bias. Sheik is just a flat out terrible character design. Why have drawbacks when you can just be one of the best at everything!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You're funny. Smash 4 metagame isn't all about Denti and Bwett dominating your region though.

 

[Terotrous]

You're funny. Smash 4 metagame isn't all about Denti and Bwett dominating your region though.

Find me a region where Sheik doesn't dominate? The Sheik in that match was dominating, too.


It's also worth noting that there isn't really a dominant Rosalina player at Shockwave, but it's still clear that she's super strong.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Find me a region where Sheik doesn't dominate?

Every region outside of yours, perhaps?

The "Sheik player" in that video is a Diddy main and he went all Diddy except for that set. I don't think a Sheik ever won anything yet except as a secondary.

 

[The Real Gamer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtqPHo0UZv8

Ending of game 1 is a perfect showcase of why Lucario is so dumb in this game.

The Sheik was thoroughly outplaying the Lucario throughout the match but all it took was two reads for Sheik to die from 33%...

What a joke.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think now as the game has matured, we can pretty much say that we once again have that dominant character archetype that is common with fighting games, with most of the characters either having powerful mechanics (Aura for Luc and the Luma for Rosalina) or have overall momentum in select areas (Greninja, Yoshi, Sheik, etc.) being the ones that are going to be mechanically gifted, for a lack of a better term.

At this time, I really need to just send my condolences to Kirby. He has to be, unfortunately, one of the worst characters (like, #2 worst, since Olimar exists) in the game from a competitive standpoint. Almost every single character above and even BELOW him does one, more, or all of his areas of combat (aerial, ground, projectile, grab, etc.) better than him. He's still agonizingly slow, his range got reduced (which was one of the few things he had going for him), and it seems like he has an unfavorable matchup to all but the "worst" characters in the game.

So...why do I still use him? That is a question...that I'll likely answer after my errands.

I wouldn't say that Kirby is terrible.. Fast falled F-Air into F-Tilt is great.
Olimar isn't terrible either. His Pikmin are tricky to use, but with a bit of practice and a mid-range/tech chasing strategy, he's a force to be contended with.

 

[The Real Gamer]

His Pikmin are tricky to use, but with a bit of practice and a mid-range/tech chasing strategy, he's a force to be contended with.

If "a force to be contended with" = bottom tier then yes... he is a force to contended with.

 

[NairWizard]

ZSS is overrated; I predict that she'll eventually fall to the bottom half of the high tier characters. Paralyzer/B-reverse paralyzer is great, and spaced n-airs are great, but everything else isn't really that impressive. She does have a strong dash attack, but it can be punished and relatively it isn't that great because everyone in this game was given a strong dash and a strong jab. Characters like Pikachu and Peach can actually *kill* with their dash attacks, which ZSS really wishes that she could do, because her kill power is one of her biggest problems. The side-b no longer kills, d-smash doesn't link into instant death any more, up-b can be punished extremely hard and smaller characters can pop out of it if they get hit while high up, b-air goes over smaller characters entirely and is difficult to land anyway. F-smash is surprisingly good: it can be punished because it's two hits, but it has great strength and startup speed. Her other viable option is grab to up-air, but landing ZSS' grab can be very difficult.

Which is another issue! The character's main weakness from Brawl has been mitigated (tether grabs are better; her other options are better) but not removed--she still has that long grab animation, making grabs very high-risk, low-reward for her in general. Shield beats most of her low-risk options easily; she can condition her opponent into shielding and then start to grab, but once she starts to grab, her opponent can just counter-condition and punish those whiffed grabs very hard.

It's kind of unfortunate that otherwise good characters like Pacman and ZSS are stuck with bad grab animations (Pacman's in particular is egregiously unfortunate, because he has big gloves and didn't even need to have a long grab). I'd support both for top tier if their grab animations were normal. (some others like Palutena suffer from unnaturally slow grab animations too, without even having tether grabs--really bizarre)

The characters in this game who will end up being at the top of the tier list are those who can net kills most easily while being good in other areas such as speed/spacing. Because of the Rage effect and how long stocks tend to last in this game, closing a stock gap often involves taking significant damage, so edgeguarding and/or landing easy kills/confirms is critical.

Kill throws are very important too, since shield is strong in this game. The best way to rip off stocks is to have a kill throw because your opponent can't just shield your smashes if you can grab and kill at high %.

Diddy Kong is a very strong contender for top tier because his kill options are ridiculous.

d-throw to u-air is very potent--you can vector, but you will get hit by a frame trap most of the time--and u-air kills very early (his dash grab has a little less range I think than it had in Brawl, but it's very quick, and his ground speed is good as always). At higher percents, Diddy's b-throw and f-throw can kill at the edge too. If he can't kill with his regular throws, monkey flip also kills--an aerial command grab that kills and starts from a distance away is amazing, and it can even be smash-attacked to give it extra range and strength.

His f-smash and f-air have surprisingly enormous range, and his up-smash and up-tilt (!) actually kill in this game, so this character has no shortage of non-grab kill options. Bananas are awesome for setting up kills, too, and if you use the Battering Banana opponents actually get launched *up* when landing on a banana, which makes landing an up-air or f-air easy. The nerf to airdodge makes all of this even better because if you airdodge any of these moves, Diddy is just going to fastfall f-smash you with that range (or u-smash/u-tilt for mixup), or side-b if you're far enough away.

Lucario is another obvious contender for top tier. He kills way too early once he gets to a higher percent (80 to 120). Not much to say about him: almost every single move he has can kill at some percent. Even Extremespeed.

Rosalina kills fairly early with that f-smash and up-smash with Luma, but she's top tier for other reasons instead--namely that range and all those hitboxes (there are 4 on her d-smash). Still, she might struggle against characters like Sonic who can rush her down, because she's 1) very tall, 2) very floaty, and 3) very light, not a great combination. I believe her b-throw can kill, though (lots of strong b-throws in this game).

Sheik is great, but does have some issues killing, and I think that might cut her from the very top of the list over time (or maybe not: it depends on how her matchups look). Confident use of bouncing fish (e.g., f-throw to bouncing fish) and great edgeguarding are the hallmarks of a top Sheik, because that's the best way to net kills. You can also use Vanish as a mixup to secure a kill. Up-air can kill too. So there are options. Whether or not that's enough, time will tell.

PIkachu might be a surprise top tier--his edgeguarding is pretty much the best in the game. That multi-hit bair is incredible for edgeguarding now that airdodge has been nerfed, and up-air/f-air/n-air is as good as always. When a character is on the ledge you can run off and rising b-air back to the stage to cover the get-up; up-tilt and up-air will cover the ledge jump option. Thunder is now a ridiculously good spike option offstage. Outside of edgeguarding, fastfall f-air to pretty much anything can also net kills. Only thing is that Pikachu's throws aren't that great for killing iirc; if he had a good kill throw he'd be top tier for sure.

Sonic is looking to be pretty top tier. His b-throw kills even earlier than Lucario's until like 150% (when Lucario becomes a beast), and he's fast enough to get the grab most of the time. His f-smash doesn't have a whole lot of lag either, and his edgeguarding is great because of that semi-invincible up-b (you can d-air off stage and still make it back). Combined with the rest of his game, his kill potential probably makes him top 5.

Ness is really good. That b-throw kills *so* early, and it's paired with one of the fastest dash grabs in the game (though Ness' general ground mobility isn't that great). Aerials are amazing too; probably the best aerials in the game (n-air out of shield is awesome, f-air has tons of range, up-air has a HUGE MASSIVE HITBOX HOW DOES NESS' HEAD GET THAT BIG OMG WHAT THE HECK?). Ness' recovery makes me a little reserved about him, though, because Rosalina just eats it up, Dark Pit/Pit can reflector it, etc.

I think Yoshi and Greninja are worse than the above because of fewer reliable kill options (though Greninja up-smash is amazing), though they've got tools for pretty much every situation, so time will tell.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The Sheik was thoroughly outplaying the Lucario throughout the match but all it took was two reads for Sheik to die from 33%...

What a joke.

Yeah I'm gonna have to side with that last sentiment there. I'm glad I can at least bop careless Lucario's with the power of reflectors if they try and Side-B me when I play Doc/Mario, at least there's that.....

 

[Terotrous]

Every region outside of yours, perhaps?

The "Sheik player" in that video is a Diddy main and he went all Diddy except for that set. I don't think a Sheik ever won anything yet except as a secondary.

We'll see when the first Smash 4 major happens, I guess. I don't think it's a coincidence that pretty much everyone has Sheik either #1 or #2.

Incidentally, I'm not from Texas. Shockwave just generally seems to be the best Smash4 weekly in terms of player skill and stream quality that I've seen.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I still don't know what it is that supposedly makes Olimar so bad. And I can't be arsed to actually pick the character up just to find out <_<

Incidentally, I'm not from Texas. Shockwave just generally seems to be the best weekly in terms of player skill and stream quality that I've seen.

Nah, no way. Watch the Japanese or NJ/NY streams. That's where it's at.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

They definitely also live pretty long. It's very uncommon to be killed outright at less than 120% unless it was like Little Mac or Bowser FSmash near the edge of the stage. In Melee there are tons of moves that can kill at 100%.

There's also a lot of recoveries in this game that are really safe.

Bowsers Recovery is not one of them.

I think now as the game has matured, we can pretty much say that we once again have that dominant character archetype that is common with fighting games, with most of the characters either having powerful mechanics (Aura for Luc and the Luma for Rosalina) or have overall momentum in select areas (Greninja, Yoshi, Sheik, etc.) being the ones that are going to be mechanically gifted, for a lack of a better term.

At this time, I really need to just send my condolences to Kirby. He has to be, unfortunately, one of the worst characters (like, #2 worst, since Olimar exists) in the game from a competitive standpoint. Almost every single character above and even BELOW him does one, more, or all of his areas of combat (aerial, ground, projectile, grab, etc.) better than him. He's still agonizingly slow, his range got reduced (which was one of the few things he had going for him), and it seems like he has an unfavorable matchup to all but the "worst" characters in the game.

So...why do I still use him? That is a question...that I'll likely answer after my errands.

I do want to discuss Kirby, granted im on my mission to end the bowser train.
Kirby is and isn't slow. As far as tilts and aerials go, Kirby's got *very* low ending lag. Infact I believe there was a chart that showed Kirby is all around one of the least laggy characters in the game when it comes to aerials & airdodge.
His air maneuverability isn't that fast, and his ground speed is slow, yes no doubt. His Specials are all laggy to boot, I can't even use stone it's way too telegraphed to feel confident in.
Biggest issue I'd say is his range, Kirbys attacks don't go very far, and he's light as hell. His saving grace is again, damn low lag on his aerials and tilts, pretty much every tilt combos/strings into another tilt or an aerial until later %'s. His off-stage game is also acceptable and very prominent with custom moves. With Upper Cutter in his pocket he has plenty of hang time to pressure off-stage and confirm stocks. Jumping inhale and eh even Ice Breathe are improvements over the standard (why wont they go in) Inhale.

I think you're being too cynical to start talking about bottom 2. If Kirby doesn't get spaced out, then he can do great work, the deal is how is he going to do that with poor range, and poor mobility.

I still don't know what it is that supposedly makes Olimar so bad. And I can't be arsed to actually pick the character up just to find out <_<

Before we even get to talk about Olimars tilts, smashes, aerials, specials. The man has AI issues with his Pikmin, one of the fundamental aspects of his kit that are going to hamper his ability to perform. When a pikmin decides to suicide? Guess who has to spend time plucking? Olimar. You're going to have inconveniences thrown your way out of your control and will have to find time to repair that inconvenience. This is a bigger deal than in brawl given you only have 3. A suicidal pikmin, a lost pikmin, a pikmin that wants to chill out on one side of the stage and take its time coming back, is well 1/3. That's 33% baby, that means you thrown 1 out, 1 was lost due to AI, so now you've got 1 left, while you wait for 1 to come back, and figure out wtf the other one is doing so that it either comes back to you or kills itself so you can pick another.

Then you go on his kit, His smashes themselves are counting as projectiles...a tad problematic.
I like his Recovery tbh, it's Villager esque (aka ********), but with more restrictions, for what? Nobody knows.

Olimar has options but I wouldn't competitively recommend a character with AI reliance with AI problems, given their options without AI are trashy. Multiple options with AI are reflectable. He's still pretty easy to KO given his weight, and I think he just lacks impact. You have to juggle pikmin but it's a pain in the ass even despite it being structured, cumbersome and time consuming. Sonic will run you over while you are busy juggling Pikmin to have a K.O option or rack up damage.

 

[SonicZeroX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtqPHo0UZv8

Ending of game 1 is a perfect showcase of why Lucario is so dumb in this game.

Holy crap. Grand Finals of this tournament was Diddy vs a MII FIGHTER?!

Also said Mii fighter destroyed the Lucario in this video

 

[Terotrous]

Bowsers Recovery is not one of them.

Agreed. It's okay but that's it.

Luckily for him he's so heavy that he can stay onstage for a long time.

I do want to discuss Kirby, granted im on my mission to end the bowser train.
Kirby is and isn't slow. As far as tilts and aerials go, Kirby's got *very* low ending lag. Infact I believe there was a chart that showed Kirby is all around one of the least laggy characters in the game when it comes to aerials & airdodge.
His air maneuverability isn't that fast, and his ground speed is slow, yes no doubt. His Specials are all laggy to boot, I can't even use stone it's way too telegraphed to feel confident in.

I agree that I don't think he's as bad as people are saying. Stone actually seems pretty good in this game, though can't be used too predictably of course. I also think his normals are pretty decent, and he can go super deep for gimps.

I don't expect high tier, but I wouldn't tend to guess bottom tier either. Probably either lower mid or low.