Character Competitive Impressions

[RWB]

How is Fox looking? On paper, he seems like he'd do well against ZSS, but I'm not so sure on that in practice.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How is Fox looking? On paper, he seems like he'd do well against ZSS, but I'm not so sure on that in practice.

Fox is really good and underrated. High tier, potentially top. Based on personal experience and observation I think he loses to Rosalina and Little Mac. Yoshi also looks difficult for Fox this time around. Greninja, Lucario, ZSS, Sheik, Diddy and Sonic all feel pretty even. With Zero and TKD maining Fox I bet we'll see some outstanding tourney results for the character soon enough.

 

[Thinkaman]

I wonder how good ROB has to do in tourney performance before we start mentioning him at all. He's been completely left out of the echo chamber.

 

[RWB]

My impression of Fox is that he has a very solid ground game(but he really suffers a bit from no flinch on his laser for disruptive play, which can be fixed with customs- though I think these stills) and very solid anti air moves and solid kill options.

 

[mimgrim]

It's not the no flinching of the lasers that hurt him. It's the lack of Laser Cancel.

That said. He is still very solid. He's fast, still KOs fast, buffed offstage game, go footsies, good aerials. No way he isn't in the higher portion of the characters.

I also think Falco is rather underrated as well, tbh.

 

[M15t3R E]

I wonder how good ROB has to do in tourney performance before we start mentioning him at all. He's been completely left out of the echo chamber.

I've used ROB online and he nets me the win almost always against any character who isn't particularly fast and agile. Against such characters in that category, he struggles.

 

[RWB]

It's not the no flinching of the lasers that hurt him. It's the lack of Laser Cancel.

That said. He is still very solid. He's fast, still KOs fast, buffed offstage game, go footsies, good aerials. No way he isn't in the higher portion of the characters.

I also think Falco is rather underrated as well, tbh.

Falco seems like a very powerful defensive character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Void Reflector is incredible. Safe, does 9%, reflects non-energy projectiles (albeit at 0.6x), voids energy projectiles, voids hydrant, tree, and discus.

It's the move that saved Falco. It will prove a huge asset in 2v2 and 4v4.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

http://www.twitch.tv/newmetastream/b/580242683
1st matches against Sonic and Pikachu @ 1:41:28-1:50:30

2nd matches against Lil Mac and Diddy @ 2:37:58-2:51:51

Really good WFT gameplay. I highly suggest you watch, especially the match with Lil Mac because of WFT grabbing Lil Mac during his K.O Punch and basically nullifying it. Kinda crazy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wonder how good ROB has to do in tourney performance before we start mentioning him at all. He's been completely left out of the echo chamber.

Unless customs are a massive buff for ROB that I'm not aware of, I just don't think he's good at all in this game. He's a character that just absolutely hates the general mechanics changes of the game.

His neutral is passable, but not usually rewarding if you don't get lasered. He is strictly harmed by the changes to ledges which make his edgetrapping weaker, as well as make his recovery more vulnerable to edgeguards, which is kinda unacceptable for a character who has a very hard time landing safely. And his physics make him relatively poor at juggling.

Throw in some nerfs to his best pokes like F-tilt and F-air, he's just underwhelming.

 

[KenMeister]

Unless customs are a massive buff for ROB that I'm not aware of, I just don't think he's good at all in this game. He's a character that just absolutely hates the general mechanics changes of the game.

His neutral is passable, but not usually rewarding if you don't get lasered. He is strictly harmed by the changes to ledges which make his edgetrapping weaker, as well as make his recovery more vulnerable to edgeguards, which is kinda unacceptable for a character who has a very hard time landing safely. And his physics make him relatively poor at juggling.

Throw in some nerfs to his best pokes like F-tilt and F-air, he's just underwhelming.

I dunno, I think his camping game can pressurize alot of opponents into bad positions, especially when he can throw out so much at once from a distance.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I think his camping game can pressurize alot of opponents into bad positions, especially when he can throw out so much at once from a distance.

ROB's camping isn't strong. You shouldn't be focusing on camping with his projectiles, because they have noticeable cooldowns, and can be reacted to easily in neutral. The primary time ROB's projectiles are good is when he is in the positive state and following up on hits, or punishing really obvious commitments.

I do not believe ROB's reward in the positive state however outweighs his clearly terrible negative state, and not amazing neutral game.

 

[KenMeister]

ROB's camping isn't strong. You shouldn't be focusing on camping with his projectiles, because they have noticeable cooldowns, and can be reacted to easily in neutral. The primary time ROB's projectiles are good is when he is in the positive state and following up on hits, or punishing really obvious commitments.

I do not believe ROB's reward in the positive state however outweighs his clearly terrible negative state, and not amazing neutral game.

But again, they can force opponents into bad positions, especially since his lasers are bigger and can be angled towards the ground.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

ROB is one of my mains this game and he is very, very strong indeed. While A2 did point out a couple of his flaws, his two up-special customs are very useful in 1v1 scenarios depending on who you play against.

But aside from that, ROB is still a pretty strong character this game. Laser and Gyro force players to keep away from him and nobody has a perfect approach against either of these projectiles and SH-Nair, which is very nice indeed. Laser has a brilliant custom special in Quickshot Robo Beam which sacrifices knockback power for zero cooldown, and Gyro is instantly reusable on block, which make them good pressure and stage control tools.

Even in For Glory, where customs aren't allowed, I find myself quite easily overrunning most matchups with ROBs extremely powerful aerials. While his nair, bair and dair are slow they have a heck of a kick if you can land them, but his fair and uair are the two really strong aerials in ROB's arsenal because of how quick they come out. Fair can usually combo with itself twice offstage, which could be followed up with a Gyro or Laser, depending on the enemies's range/%. Footstool gimps are also very plausible if the enemy doesn't quite see them coming, as they can be combod into a dair for a guaranteed KO if they don't react quickly enough.

On top of this, he has arguably some of the better smashes in the game. Usmash is his key weapon as it's not only fast but knocks up enemies on the ground into the smash, and DACUS will wreck unsuspecting Links coming at you with their dair as it has a pretty high hitbox. Dsmash is another strong tool and works as ROBs best OOS option with a disgustingly fast startup and high knockback to boot - usually launching enemies along the stage floor and off so they have to recover both horizontally and vertically. His fthrow and DA both can combo into fairs, his dthrow can combo very nicely into a uair even with good DI and his uthrow knocks back very far early on.

ROB is not a character to be taken lightly.

 

[Luco]

@ Z'zgashi : Well diddy i'd probably consider very close to that top 4 area. I just feel like diddy would have significantly more trouble with R&L and the top 4 would also have stronger MUs in general; but I think he'd be pretty close. As for sonic, I actually think Sonic may drop over time. Even though peeps are doing well with him (Scourge?) I get the feeling he has trouble with several MUs and peeps may also adapt to his hyper-aggressive game.

On the other hand, I'm yet to vs a good sonic player to this point in time. Just putting out my preliminary thoughts.

 

[KenMeister]

ROB is one of my mains this game and he is very, very strong indeed. While A2 did point out a couple of his flaws, his two up-special customs are very useful in 1v1 scenarios depending on who you play against.

But aside from that, ROB is still a pretty strong character this game. Laser and Gyro force players to keep away from him and nobody has a perfect approach against either of these projectiles and SH-Nair, which is very nice indeed. Laser has a brilliant custom special in Quickshot Robo Beam which sacrifices knockback power for zero cooldown, and Gyro is instantly reusable on block, which make them good pressure and stage control tools.

Even in For Glory, where customs aren't allowed, I find myself quite easily overrunning most matchups with ROBs extremely powerful aerials. While his nair, bair and dair are slow they have a heck of a kick if you can land them, but his fair and uair are the two really strong aerials in ROB's arsenal because of how quick they come out. Fair can usually combo with itself twice offstage, which could be followed up with a Gyro or Laser, depending on the enemies's range/%. Footstool gimps are also very plausible if the enemy doesn't quite see them coming, as they can be combod into a dair for a guaranteed KO if they don't react quickly enough.

On top of this, he has arguably some of the better smashes in the game. Usmash is his key weapon as it's not only fast but knocks up enemies on the ground into the smash, and DACUS will wreck unsuspecting Links coming at you with their dair as it has a pretty high hitbox. Dsmash is another strong tool and works as ROBs best OOS option with a disgustingly fast startup and high knockback to boot - usually launching enemies along the stage floor and off so they have to recover both horizontally and vertically. His fthrow and DA both can combo into fairs, his dthrow can combo very nicely into a uair even with good DI and his uthrow knocks back very far early on.

ROB is not a character to be taken lightly.

Considering you know a good deal about ROB, I was told somewhere that ROB had some of the best tools to handle Rosalina, considering the laser goes right through Luma. Would you consider this true?

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Considering you know a good deal about ROB, I was told somewhere that ROB had some of the best tools to handle Rosalina, considering the laser goes right through Luma. Would you consider this true?

I wouldn't say entirely so, but the laser is definitely a brilliant tool against her. The way I see it, Rosalinas need to play aggressive against characters with projectiles in general like ROB and Fox because otherwise everything goes nowhere with Gravitational Pull spam, or she loses Luma quickly and has to fend for herself (which is still strong, but without 50% damage shields in front of you it's a bit harder).

The problem with Rosalina is that even with ROBs lasers she still has the same tools to destroy him as she does most other characters, especially given his speed. Rosalina can jump-charge a Luma Shot into a ROB and keep him away with Star Bits or whatever that move is called, and unless you want to stand in front of Luma for the entire game you're going to have to get between the two, which on almost all characters is a scary thing to face. ROBs smashes are other good tools against Rosalina but once she gets the bot in the air or off stage he's hers.

 

[Shaya]

It's a shame Yoshi exists.
He literally makes Bowser useless in the meta.

All the hype, all the love in the world, and Yoshi is better in every department except weight, although both are heavy weight fat ****s who won't ever die.

Who has better ground mobility? Yoshi
Who has better air mobility by a stupid amount? Yoshi
Who has better range on the ground? Yoshi
Who has more range in the air? Yoshi
Who has a smaller hurtbox? Yoshi
Who has disjointed tails, noses and sometimes their entire head? Yoshi
Who has a usable/spammable/probably top tier move projectile? Yoshi
Who has super armor during jumps? Yoshi
Who has an air grab? Yoshi and Bowser.
Who's is better due to disjoint, coming out faster, with less lag and gives you a free 20%+ for landing it? Yoshi.
Who dominates at close range? Bowser and Yoshi
Who dominates at mid range? Yoshi

Bowser does not have a niche in this game at all. And it's honestly disgusting how good Yoshi is to make Bowser look comparatively so worthless.
Can anyone actually give me a reason to use Bowser besides having high % damage on moves that come out about 50 to 100% slower than Yoshis?

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's a shame Yoshi exists.
He literally makes Bowser useless in the meta.

All the hype, all the love in the world, and Yoshi is better in every department except weight, although both are heavy weight fat ****s who won't ever die.

Bowser plays footsies better than Yoshi legitimately and is frankly quite a bit scarier than Yoshi in midrange (and when edge trapping). Just several characters with projectiles or dumb fullhop spacing tricks don't let him do that, which sucks because his entire game revolves around his clearly awesome midrange.

It's a shame that's what being huge does to you. Bowser's movepool is **** amazing. But he's a fat*** which prevents him from winning neutral conventionally like a maniac.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

It's a shame Yoshi exists.
He literally makes Bowser useless in the meta.

All the hype, all the love in the world, and Yoshi is better in every department except weight, although both are heavy weight fat ****s who won't ever die.

Who has better ground mobility? Yoshi
Who has better air mobility by a stupid amount? Yoshi
Who has better range on the ground? Yoshi
Who has more range in the air? Yoshi
Who has a smaller hurtbox? Yoshi
Who has disjointed tails, noses and sometimes their entire head? Yoshi
Who has a usable/spammable/probably top tier move projectile? Yoshi
Who has super armor during jumps? Yoshi
Who has an air grab? Yoshi and Bowser.
Who's is better due to disjoint, coming out faster, with less lag and gives you a free 20%+ for landing it? Yoshi.

Bowser does not have a niche in this game at all. And it's honestly disgusting how good Yoshi is to make Bowser look comparatively so worthless.

Replace the word Bowser with Kirby and I'll say we feel the same about Yoshi. (also Kirby being light instead of heavy of course)

 

[Thinkaman]

I dunno Shaya, Bowser does legitimately do more damage and knockback, and it's difficult to compare their air-grabs. I think Bowser has a neutral range advantage, and way better grab + throws. As good as Yoshi is, I'm not sure I buy that he's a strictly superior Bowser.

 

[Signia]

That's funny because I was wondering what Ganon does better than Bowser.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno Shaya, Bowser does legitimately do more damage and knockback, and it's difficult to compare their air-grabs. I think Bowser has a neutral range advantage, and way better grab + throws. As good as Yoshi is, I'm not sure I buy that he's a strictly superior Bowser.

Yoshi to me in this game is more like...a slightly watered down hybrid of Brawl Snake and Olimar. He shares attributes with those characters that made them strong. His main weakness is tether grab, so DA/grab mixup is rarely applicable on him and good Jab games still can put him in trouble when he blocks.

That's funny because I was wondering what Ganon does better than Bowser.

Ganondorf has better edgeguards and actually is noticeably less vulnerable to traps and dumb projectile zoning as a whole partly because he isn't nearly as massive as Bowser.

 

[Shaya]

Bowser plays footsies better than Yoshi legitimately and is frankly quite a bit scarier than Yoshi in midrange (and when edge trapping). Just several characters with projectiles or dumb fullhop spacing tricks don't let him do that, which sucks because his entire game revolves around his clearly awesome midrange.

It's a shame that's what being huge does to you. Bowser's movepool is **** amazing. But he's a fat*** which prevents him from winning neutral conventionally like a maniac.

Give Bowser a flaming ball of fire he can control, punishes most people for clashing with it, that helps shift momentum easily and that he can combo out of. Then we'd be talking about an amazing move pool / neutral game.
But yes, full hop spacing tricks beat Bowser. What beats Yoshi? lol.

Replace the word Bowser with Kirby and I'll say we feel the same about Yoshi. (also Kirby being light instead of heavy of course)

At least you have the mid air jumps I suppose. But eh, the way Yoshi floats around and the heights of his jump kinda outdo that ability most of the time. Meh.

I dunno Shaya, Bowser does legitimately do more damage and knockback, and it's difficult to compare their air-grabs. I think Bowser has a neutral range advantage, and way better grab + throws. As good as Yoshi is, I'm not sure I buy that he's a strictly superior Bowser.

Legitimately doing more damage and knockback on moves that people will not be getting hit by because they're generally slower than Yoshi. I would not feel comfortable using Bowser's air grab on grounded opponents knowing full well how telegraphed that action is. Bowser's can get a kill with his and also come out favourably with a suicide. I'm not entirely fussed about Bowser having a few moves/scenarios he's better in while Yoshi takes 90% of the cake.

 

[KenMeister]

Yoshi to me in this game is more like...a slightly watered down hybrid of Brawl Snake and Olimar. He shares attributes with those characters that made them strong. His main weakness is tether grab, so DA/grab mixup is rarely applicable on him and good Jab games still can put him in trouble when he blocks.

Ganondorf has better edgeguards and actually is noticeably less vulnerable to traps and dumb projectile zoning as a whole partly because he isn't nearly as massive as Bowser.

Really? I feel Ganon has a harder time in general than Bowser getting around projectiles. He's slower in movement and has generally slower jumps than Bowser does. That, and considering the fact that he's terrible at mid-range when compared to the awesome mid-range game Bowser has (neutralB can stop campers when he's at the perfect distance), he has less reliable ways of getting around them, or even just stopping opponents from camping period.

 

[Shaya]

Yoshi is the more option-rich lower risk (disjoints on tails and tongue and head are balanced)/ slightly lower reward (not killing people for doing dumb things at 80%) Bowser.
Bowser has no capabilities that Yoshi also doesn't have, coupled with better aerial mobility, better frame data but with less reward involved.

I know I'm probably harping on Bowser here almost like people harped on Marth in the early Brawl days with the Meta Knight comparison. Their differences obviously accentuated over time, match ups were definitely different and although they played with similar patterns, they had different game plans, strengths and weaknesses. But it's like... hard to see the difference as much here at first glance when everything mobility related is in Yoshi's favour, Yoshi having less weaknesses and Bowser seemingly not having strengths that Yoshi cannot muster with less effort.

iono. We'll see. If your character loses to you're probably losing to . And while Bowser may beat you harder because of his insane damage output and knockback, you're still losing to Yoshi while probably landing less hits on him and this will be the case throughout all their match ups, not just ones where the opposing character just isn't good enough to compete in the first place.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Really? I feel Ganon has a harder time in general than Bowser getting around projectiles. He's slower in movement and has generally slower jumps than Bowser does. That, and considering the fact that he's terrible at mid-range when compared to the awesome mid-range game Bowser has (neutralB can stop campers when he's at the perfect distance), he has less reliable ways of getting around them, or even just stopping opponents from camping period.

Both Ganon and Bowser suck at getting around projectiles and get bodied by them. The key thing is Ganondorf is more likely to get back into neutral than Bowser successfully against projectiles because his smaller frame + aerial wizkick make trapping his landing noticeably less braindead. Bowser for instance...really can't land against Link or TL. Ganondorf actually can to an extent.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I dont know whyd you would use Bowser over Yoshi, but I wouldnt use Bowser in general. He isnt worth it and I still dont feel the hype. If you outrange Bowser then whats the deal given his general attack speed.
Ganon can dropkick over projectiles.
Bowser is also combo bait like no ones business.
"Footsies" pfft...if you get in on Bowser you can drop heavy % if you arent combo based you probably have wicked disjointed range or a projectile.
If you counter his sneeze he takes heavy damage.
His recovery doesnt do him many favors.

Kills easy like others in his class and has a command grab, outside of the command grab he isnt really a stress.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dont know whyd you would use Bowser over Yoshi, but I wouldnt use Bowser in general. He isnt worth it and I still dont feel the hype. If you outrange Bowser then whats the deal given his general attack speed.
Ganon can dropkick over projectiles.
Bowser is also combo bait like no ones business.

Customs actually are mad legit for dealing with Bowser's problems. Dash Klaw, Fireball custom, and vertical Up-B are pretty awesome. That setup also makes Bowser scary on some counterpick stages when his Bowsercide can be done for free.

Also, Bowser isn't really outranged generally speaking. He's more just forced to sit still and he's outmaneuvered. With customs, Bowser probably can actually fight other projectile users and not feel totally silly because Dash Klaw and Fireballs need to be respected.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox is still amazing. In my opinion, he loses to:

• Sheik
  F-tilt combos + his fast falling speed = OMGdestruction. Maybe not as bad as that Brawl matchup, but still pretty bad for him.
  
• Greninja
  Better range, just as fast as Fox, better projectile. Could be even, but who knows for sure right now, I personally think it's a bit disadvantageous.
  
• Little Mac
  Easily his worst matchup. Fox gets outprioritized, he can't punish him well, needs to play very campy against him to win.

He might lose to more characters. Personally, I actually don't find RosaLuma too bad. She is annoying, but that Up-smash can KO her at like 90% - 100% (and this is in a game where that move got nerfed too)

 

[KenMeister]

Sooo.....What's the general consensus for Link and Toon Link? I keep seeing low opinions of them despite the fact that Keitaro is doing pretty well with Link.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I firmly believe that Link is held back considerably by having a very unrewarding grab game. His throws aren't good for killing, don't deal great damage, and don't really combo. Considering how limited his approach and footsies are overall, lacking significant grab threat is a pretty glaring hole in his gameplan. Otherwise his movepool is reasonably good enough.

 

[Yokoblue]

Fox is still amazing. In my opinion, he loses to:

• Sheik
  F-tilt combos + his fast falling speed = OMGdestruction. Maybe not as bad as that Brawl matchup, but still pretty bad for him.
  
• Greninja
  Better range, just as fast as Fox, better projectile. Could be even, but who knows.
  
• Little Mac
  Easily his worst matchup. Fox gets outprioritized, he can't punish him well, needs to play very campy against him to win.

He might lose to more characters. Personally, I actually don't find RosaLuma too bad. She is annoying, but that Up-smash can KO her at like 90% - 100% (and this is in a game where that move got nerfed too)

I don't feel like Little Mac is a bad matchup. I don't play him as much as my other character but when I play mac, a lot of people play fox to counter and do really well. He has range with his gun and OMG the combos on little mac never stops. Fox aerial games isnt the best but against Mac, it feels like Jigglypuff. I would say that i'm average with Mac and I get RECKTED by Fox players.

I would also like opinions on Link - Toonlink like Ken

 

[Shaya]

Link and Toon Link don't seem bad in this game.
I wouldn't truly know who is better this time around. Toon Link losing invincible bombs was a significant blow to his defensive repertoire (it wasn't as useful on Link seeing his bomb pull was laggier / he had a much bigger hurtbox).
The whole "well tink is smaller and faster and more mobile" may actually be well balanced between the two now where Link's better range, kill power and survivability are meant to be contrasts in design rather than "not actually relevant due to his crippling weaknesses in the aforementioned".

Tether grabs have been buffed, hylian shields been buffed, thrown bombs don't hit yourself. Link doesn't have a poor aerial game in comparison to Tink anymore. I think most characters will actually struggle dealing with Link in this game if they do not have solid/base tools to counter him (reflectors, high priority projectiles of your own); his projectiles in all seem much safer this game, even to the point of having advantages on people's shields standing right in front of you (not entirely certain on this, but the amount of times I've seen link be able to roll away from a boomerang on my shield in grab range is pretty annoying).

Going back to Tink, I think he lost a lot of potency in his back air, down air is no longer a pogo so is completely useless as a meteor (why does it still do that ... people just tech it and punish him ;\). And he just doesn't seem to have as many frame traps. His customs don't seem to have much use or merit beyond doubles (other than a better up-b), so I don't see him getting better from them at all. Link apparently has a chargeable bow attack that kills, which eh, may not be amazing but it still sounds a lot scarier than what Tink can get.

The boomerang that pieces/travels through people (goes a full path) may have a lot of strategic potential for players once they figure it out, if it can be consistently used to pressure + combo set up.
Toon Link has a custom "heavy" bomb, that is literally a .1 of a second difference from what would probably be one of the best moves in the game by far. The explosion range and damage and it not hitting you on a throw is stupendous (cool things happen in doubles), but in singles its a huge liability, it blows up almost immediately, you cannot hold onto it for any more than a few frames lest your throwing animation has you punishing yourself. I'm not joking, if he could hold onto that thing for a split minute extra moment longer, I doubt you'd be able to do anything about Toon Link's defensive and mid to long range options at all.
Tinks heavy bombs do allow him infinite recovery though (in a way that can kill him at 120%), and with custom stages being confirmed will be likely the only means of bringing back 'Duelist Pro' into Smash 4

 

[Lunix7]

ROB is one of my mains this game and he is very, very strong indeed. While A2 did point out a couple of his flaws, his two up-special customs are very useful in 1v1 scenarios depending on who you play against.

But aside from that, ROB is still a pretty strong character this game. Laser and Gyro force players to keep away from him and nobody has a perfect approach against either of these projectiles and SH-Nair, which is very nice indeed. Laser has a brilliant custom special in Quickshot Robo Beam which sacrifices knockback power for zero cooldown, and Gyro is instantly reusable on block, which make them good pressure and stage control tools.

Even in For Glory, where customs aren't allowed, I find myself quite easily overrunning most matchups with ROBs extremely powerful aerials. While his nair, bair and dair are slow they have a heck of a kick if you can land them, but his fair and uair are the two really strong aerials in ROB's arsenal because of how quick they come out. Fair can usually combo with itself twice offstage, which could be followed up with a Gyro or Laser, depending on the enemies's range/%. Footstool gimps are also very plausible if the enemy doesn't quite see them coming, as they can be combod into a dair for a guaranteed KO if they don't react quickly enough.

On top of this, he has arguably some of the better smashes in the game. Usmash is his key weapon as it's not only fast but knocks up enemies on the ground into the smash, and DACUS will wreck unsuspecting Links coming at you with their dair as it has a pretty high hitbox. Dsmash is another strong tool and works as ROBs best OOS option with a disgustingly fast startup and high knockback to boot - usually launching enemies along the stage floor and off so they have to recover both horizontally and vertically. His fthrow and DA both can combo into fairs, his dthrow can combo very nicely into a uair even with good DI and his uthrow knocks back very far early on.

ROB is not a character to be taken lightly.

Well said! I couldn't agree more with you. I feel as If R.O.B. is a bit underrated and people tend to underestimate his abilities and potential. Being a R.O.B. main I feel he has a lot of good tools at his disposal. Like you said his laser and gyro are extremely good for pressure and he has great smashes. Though I will admit he does have some weaknesses. For one it seems like he has a hard time getting back on stage (could just be me) since he doesn't have a lot of safe aerial options outside of Nair (Well he does but I'm talking about when you are falling above the character and he also has a lot of starting lag on his aerials) which can become predictable and the fact that he is floaty. His special up-b while covering good distance is nowhere near as good as it was in brawl and can be very punishable. Overall I find R.O.B. definitely a solid character but I don't think he will be top tier.

Edit: I'm referring to his default move set

 

[Luco]

Link and Toon Link don't seem bad in this game.
I wouldn't truly know who is better this time around. Toon Link losing invincible bombs was a significant blow to his defensive repertoire (it wasn't as useful on Link seeing his bomb pull was laggier / he had a much bigger hurtbox).
The whole "well tink is smaller and faster and more mobile" may actually be well balanced between the two now where Link's better range, kill power and survivability are meant to be contrasts in design rather than "not actually relevant due to his crippling weaknesses in the aforementioned".

Tether grabs have been buffed, hylian shields been buffed, thrown bombs don't hit yourself. Link doesn't have a poor aerial game in comparison to Tink anymore. I think most characters will actually struggle dealing with Link in this game if they do not have solid/base tools to counter him (reflectors, high priority projectiles of your own); his projectiles in all seem much safer this game, even to the point of having advantages on people's shields standing right in front of you (not entirely certain on this, but the amount of times I've seen link be able to roll away from a boomerang on my shield in grab range is pretty annoying).

Going back to Tink, I think he lost a lot of potency in his back air, down air is no longer a pogo so is completely useless as a meteor (why does it still do that ... people just tech it and punish him ;\). And he just doesn't seem to have as many frame traps. His customs don't seem to have much use or merit beyond doubles (other than a better up-b), so I don't see him getting better from them at all. Link apparently has a chargeable bow attack that kills, which eh, may not be amazing but it still sounds a lot scarier than what Tink can get.

The boomerang that pieces/travels through people (goes a full path) may have a lot of strategic potential for players once they figure it out, if it can be consistently used to pressure + combo set up.
Toon Link has a custom "heavy" bomb, that is literally a .1 of a second difference from what would probably be one of the best moves in the game by far. The explosion range and damage and it not hitting you on a throw is stupendous (cool things happen in doubles), but in singles its a huge liability, it blows up almost immediately, you cannot hold onto it for any more than a few frames lest your throwing animation has you punishing yourself. I'm not joking, if he could hold onto that thing for a split minute extra moment longer, I doubt you'd be able to do anything about Toon Link's defensive and mid to long range options at all.
Tinks heavy bombs do allow him infinite recovery though (in a way that can kill him at 120%), and with custom stages being confirmed will be likely the only means of bringing back 'Duelist Pro' into Smash 4

Ah, something to mention here though is that regular link has the heavy bombs as well. Or at least I presume so, from your description of Tink's one because I was playing around with Link's version of the heavy bomb and it's really, really cool (and similar).

I think customs would benefit these guys greatly. Possibly moreso regular link but heavy bombs on tink isn't bad either.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Can anyone actually give me a reason to use Bowser besides having high % damage on moves that come out about 50 to 100% slower than Yoshis?

You can drop kick a *****

 

[mimgrim]

At least Bowser isn't slow as molasses this time around.

 

[otter]

Bowser does not have a niche in this game at all. And it's honestly disgusting how good Yoshi is to make Bowser look comparatively so worthless.
Can anyone actually give me a reason to use Bowser besides having high % damage on moves that come out about 50 to 100% slower than Yoshis?

Bowser was never that good. People just got too hype about him getting to the finals of a tournament (by spamming down b in free for alls). I mean he has buffs, but he's still bowser.

 

[PK Gaming]

Really starting to feel the effects of having a main with a mediocre grab. Robin's abysmal grab range is one thing, but it's got slightly more startup than your typical standing grab, which straight up puts you at a disadvantage at close range.

Not a good feeling, heh