Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Frankly I am more inclined to believe she's bottom tier than mid tier. In reality don't think she's either, I think she'll end somewhere in low, but if I had to choose between mid or bottom I would say bottom. Sure, she's got some improvements from Brawl and this is probably her best version so far, but she still suffers from a lot of fundamental flaws. Her approaching game is one of the worst. At the same time she also does not have any tools that force people to approach her, which means she will have to commit to approaching at a certain time. She has to rely a lot on her defensive game a lot and she has to make her opponents approach her. However, if they refuse to approach her... oh boy, suddenly a lot of the stuff she does becomes punishable.

She has still no aerial game since her Fair and Bair are unreliable and have a million year of ending lag and it doesn't autocancel until the very end of the animation, meaning you will still suffer from lag even if you shorthop her aerials. She needs a hard read or a very good punishing opportunity in order to use these moves and even then you still need some luck the sweetspot will hit. Uair is slow as **** and Dair has limited application vs grounded opponents because of its very small horizontal hitbox. Her Nair is pretty ok though since it's somewhat fast and the range is decent for a Nair but the reward isn't that great. Because of her non-existent aerial game, she has weak aerial defense is weak in the air, especially combined with the fact that she's floaty so she has to rely on either simply jumps or airdodges, laggy moves like UpB or her underwhelming aerials. This is one of the reasons fast or pressure-happy characters run her over. You really don't want to get a hit as Zelda which kind of sucks when you consider her unsafe approaches. (How somebody can say she has long survivability with a trait like this is beyond me.)

Some extreme flaws like her recovery and grab have been fixed but flaws like these have stayed and they hold her back compared to the other characters. She is not TOTALLY hopeless though. She's good IF she can somehow make her opponent approach her, she has pretty decent Dtilt set-ups (although I'm pretty sure they're not guaranteed), a scary UpB (which will probably get worse over time because of its million frames of ending lag) and some of her moves can kill early (if you succeed in landing them. It would also help if people wouldn't randomly fall out of her smashes :l). Oh and her grab range is awesome especially with that new roll pivot cancel thingie.

Most characters in this game have terrible approaches and play footsies to make up for it. Yoshi's approach and ability to force you to approach are both mediocre (Egg Toss is pretty limited in neutral, and his grab is super unreliable offensively). Strong character, though this is partly because his OOS options are better than Zelda's. Zelda having a bad "approach" is sorta missing the point.

Zelda actually has a very good DA/Dashgrab mixup, one of the better ones in this game in fact. You can argue it's a risk, but it's applicable to everyone, keeping in mind Zelda's reward on successful hit is very good. And then she has really strong tools like Jab and D-tilt and F-smash to play footsies that are also safe and rewarding on hit.

Really, you just listed problems nearly every character in the game except odd cases like Pac-Man and Pikachu have dealing with juggles (Zelda's D-air btw has a good hitbox for contesting juggles, and the weak meteor is not bad). Zelda gets out of 95% of traps for free in a game where the entire cast basically relies heavily on traps to secure KOs. As Zelda if you are not living to 150% most stocks, you made a critical error somewhere because basically nobody should be landing Smashes on you because you get back to neutral so easily.

And no, Zelda doesn't need her opponent to approach her. She just needs to get in a good DA/Dashgrab mixup, and then land trap and edgeguard correctly to win games (Zelda's edgeguarding is criminally underrated, when we factor that she has one of the best recoveries in the game and has GREAT tools for edge trapping, and Up-B fills in holes in her edge trapping by letting her chase landings at long distances). Her survivability and reward on hit make this a feasible IF counterable gameplan. Mid tier character akin to Bowser, though she's probably better than Bowser because she's not nearly as vulnerable to projectile camping.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Given how Diddy performed in the recent tournaments, I think people should start considering him to be a serious threat.

It looks like he has a tough time against Rosalina, but who doesn't? Speaking of Rosalina, does anybody actually have a favorable matchup against her?

Mewtwo currently doesnt have an unfavourable matchup against her.
Take that as you will.

 

[Conda]

I think the likes of Marth will make a comback once we have a cstick. I cant see how his fh fair and range/priority wont make him able to counter a lot of the current dominant strats and characters.

 

[Signia]

Speaking of Rosalina, does anybody actually have a favorable matchup against her?

People are saying ZSS does. Stun gun stops Luma for a long time, making it less of an issue.

I would think Sheik with the piercing needles custom would be at least even against her too.

The way I see it, matchups are what matter, rather than tiers, when considering a competitive picking strategy. You either play the metagame favorites and secondary those who cover their bad matchups, or counterpick the metagame favorites and their possible secondaries by playing multiple characters.

So I think it would also be worth discussing who has even or favorable matchups against ZSS, Sheik, and Greninja. Viable characters will always be the top tier and who can contend with them, and it hardly matters if a character can destroy one half of the cast but loses to the top tiers. So I guess what I mean is that it's not that tiers don't matter, it's that tiers should take this fact into account, and suit the real goal of the tier list, which is to get an idea of the competitive landscape when it comes to character picks.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bold statement: I currently think Sonic is the best character in the game.

He has power, speed, damage racking, and safety. He has no weaknesses other than an irrelevant lack of range and an irrelevant lack of projectiles. Hammer Spin Dash is probably the best move in the game; the risk-reward ratio is preposterous.

Sonic does a tapdance on Rosalina's face. Luma is basically killed at-will, on command with full safety. Add his formidable juggle game, and you have pegged her squarely in both her big weaknesses. His gap close makes him a nightmare for Villager as well.

Large, lingering vertical hitboxes are the only thing that interrupts the Hammer Spin Dash pain train, and Sonic is well-equipped to deal with these moves otherwise. His dash attack is effective and relatively safe. U-smash has incredible priority and kill power.

I played some wi-fi matches with Ampharos testing various matchups. His inexperienced Sonic beat all of my mains but Palutena doing almost exclusive Hammer Spin Dash. (Palutena was narrow wins too; I also won with Little Mac and Robin when he made technical errors--Ganondorf's matchup is probably similarly winnable)

Then I went Sonic, and spammed Hammer Spin Dash. As a first-time Sonic spamming one move, I beat his (strong) Rosalina and Bowser really easily. I honestly have no idea what he was supposed to do.

Is it the controls and the lag, that is making this overwhelmingly good? Maybe (Ampharos thought so), but I'm skeptical. I do not think Hammer Spin Dash will prove punishable on reaction out of lag, even for characters with the tools to interrupt it. It hits about 15 frames after the input/animation-start/sound-effect. That is not enough time to react and pull out a u-tilt or react, jump, and uair.

The mixups out of it are incredible. Sonic can space it to hit from above or in front, or can jsut run and grab you. He can jump out at any point, including before he hits you. He an dair or homing attack out of this jump if needed, to punish any would-be answer. He can decide any aerial to do after the safe hit on your shield.

I really can't see this character not being decidedly the best, unless controls and lag really do prove to be the catalyzing factors here.

 

[Jahordon]

People are saying ZSS does. Stun gun stops Luma for a long time, making it less of an issue.

I would think Sheik with the piercing needles custom would be at least even against her too.

The way I see it, matchups are what matter, rather than tiers, when considering a competitive picking strategy. You either play the metagame favorites and secondary those who cover their bad matchups, or counterpick the metagame favorites and their possible secondaries by playing multiple characters.

So I think it would also be worth discussing who has even or favorable matchups against ZSS, Sheik, and Greninja. Viable characters will always be the top tier and who can contend with them, and it hardly matters if a character can destroy one half of the cast but loses to the top tiers. So I guess what I mean is that it's not that tiers don't matter, it's that tiers should take this fact into account, and suit the real goal of the tier list, which is to get an idea of the competitive landscape when it comes to character picks.

Tiers should just be the weighted average of matchups. Weighted average matchup rating = sum [ (win % against a charcter) * (% of that character in the metagame) ] / (total number of chacters)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Bold statement: I currently think Sonic is the best character in the game.

He has power, speed, damage racking, and safety. He has no weaknesses other than an irrelevant lack of range and an irrelevant lack of projectiles. Hammer Spin Dash is probably the best move in the game; the risk-reward ratio is preposterous.

Sonic does a tapdance on Rosalina's face. Luma is basically killed at-will, on command with full safety. Add his formidable juggle game, and you have pegged her squarely in both her big weaknesses. His gap close makes him a nightmare for Villager as well.

Large, lingering vertical hitboxes are the only thing that interrupts the Hammer Spin Dash pain train, and Sonic is well-equipped to deal with these moves otherwise. His dash attack is effective and relatively safe. U-smash has incredible priority and kill power.

I played some wi-fi matches with Ampharos testing various matchups. His inexperienced Sonic beat all of my mains but Palutena doing almost exclusive Hammer Spin Dash. (Palutena was narrow wins too; I also won with Little Mac and Robin when he made technical errors--Ganondorf's matchup is probably similarly winnable)

Then I went Sonic, and spammed Hammer Spin Dash. As a first-time Sonic spamming one move, I beat his (strong) Rosalina and Bowser really easily. I honestly have no idea what he was supposed to do.

Is it the controls and the lag, that is making this overwhelmingly good? Maybe (Ampharos thought so), but I'm skeptical. I do not think Hammer Spin Dash will prove punishable on reaction out of lag, even for characters with the tools to interrupt it. It hits about 15 frames after the input/animation-start/sound-effect. That is not enough time to react and pull out a u-tilt or react, jump, and uair.

The mixups out of it are incredible. Sonic can space it to hit from above or in front, or can jsut run and grab you. He can jump out at any point, including before he hits you. He an dair or homing attack out of this jump if needed, to punish any would-be answer. He can decide any aerial to do after the safe hit on your shield.

I really can't see this character not being decidedly the best, unless controls and lag really do prove to be the catalyzing factors here.

I bet puff will eat you.

 

[Thinkaman]

I bet puff will eat you.

The irony!

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I agree with the opinion that Sonic is ridiculously good. I'd put him in top 10 if not top 5. The main reason that I UTTERLY HATE him, however, is because his playstyle is very much like traditional fighting game styles - look for an opening and punish it with a big combo. His combos are really, really good too, and there are very few characters who can stand up to his edgeguarding. One of my least favourite characters to play against online after Little Mac.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

After seeing NinjaLink and some others play Megaman yesterday, I'm currently rethinking my thoughts on him being low on the tier list. I saw some crazy stuff being done with him

 

[Locke 06]

After seeing NinjaLink and some others play Megaman yesterday, I'm currently rethinking my thoughts on him being low on the tier list. I saw some crazy stuff being done with him

Why do people think Mega Man is low tier anyway? I've been playing him for a while now, and I never feel at a disadvantage against characters. Especially the consensus top-4 characters.

 

[Signia]

The main reason that I UTTERLY HATE him, however, is because his playstyle is very much like traditional fighting game styles - look for an opening and punish it with a big combo.

That's an odd preference (ok, maybe just one that's different than mine). What would you prefer?

I don't think Sonic plays like a traditional fighting game character at all, though. I'd say that Marth, Sheik, Pit, Megaman, Samus, Link, Bowser, and Ganon all play much closer to their respective traditional fighting game archetypes.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Megaman is deemed weak because he has some of the weakest neutrals of any character before he gets in the air. All of his ground moves, even his smashes, are very punishable on block because of long lag and his specials in general are a bit meh. The key thing to remember is that low tier doesn't mean the character is bad, it just means he's overall a little weaker than characters in higher tiers.

Admittedly, though, I do think he's a little higher than where most people sit him cause his aerials are brilliant and Rush-cancelling alone is enough to let him stand up very well against higher tiered characters. It's just a shame his animations are a bit laggy and he doesn't have a really strong OOS option.

That's an odd preference (ok, maybe just one that's different than mine). What would you prefer?

I don't think Sonic plays like a traditional fighting game character at all, though. I'd say that Marth, Sheik, Pit, Megaman, Samus, Link, Bowser, and Ganon all play much closer to their to respective traditional fighting game archetypes.

I think the reason I say that is that his combos are repetitive and usually follow the same pattern of "side-b, jump, uair/nair, spring, bair/uair"

EDIT: Also, as a Shulk main I'm usually too slow to be able to react well to his very spammable side-B so that's why I dislike him a bit more than normal.

 

[Cherubas]

I find him too unconventional for me to main or anything. He's got no f-tilt for a quick way to punish and create space, he's got no neutral air as a safe full-body hitbox, his forward smash can be easily reflected, and his specials are all basically just for chipping away at people with no real kill potential. I like getting kills with his dair or utilt, but that's about all I look forward to when playing Mega Man.

 

[Locke 06]

Megaman is deemed weak because he has some of the weakest neutrals of any character before he gets in the air. All of his ground moves, even his smashes, are very punishable on block because of long lag and his specials in general are a bit meh. The key thing to remember is that low tier doesn't mean the character is bad, it just means he's overall a little weaker than characters in higher tiers.

Admittedly, though, I do think he's a little higher than where most people sit him cause his aerials are brilliant and Rush-cancelling alone is enough to let him stand up very well against higher tiered characters. It's just a shame his animations are a bit laggy and he doesn't have a really strong OOS option.

In terms of %'s and knockback, I guess you could say he has the weakest neutrals, but his neutral game is one of the best out of the entire cast. He'll keep you out of jab/smash range with his pellets/MB/CB and when the opponent gets a little reckless with their approach, he has his highly mobile dtilt and dash attack. His smash attacks have a lot of lag, but that just means you can't throw them out to fish for kills. The charge shot, however, can be very safe depending on the situation, as the range on it is really unique.

As you mentioned, his aerials are brilliant and rush-canceling in the right hands eliminates so many KO moves it's silly. Rush also allows him to go deep off stage to use those aerials as edge guarding tools.

As for punishing, utilt is a brilliant OOS option as it kills so early and comes out so quickly. Sure, he has no ftilt or a "get off me" NAir, but he sacrifices those for a great neutral game and insane punishes.

Also, if reflectors are a problem for your Mega Man... you're throwing out too many charge shots.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

In terms of %'s and knockback, I guess you could say he has the weakest neutrals, but his neutral game is one of the best out of the entire cast. He'll keep you out of jab/smash range with his pellets/MB/CB and when the opponent gets a little reckless with their approach, he has his highly mobile dtilt and dash attack. His smash attacks have a lot of lag, but that just means you can't throw them out to fish for kills. The charge shot, however, can be very safe depending on the situation, as the range on it is really unique.

As for punishing, utilt is a brilliant OOS option as it kills so early and comes out so quickly. Sure, he has no ftilt or a "get off me" NAir, but he sacrifices those for a great neutral game.

Also, if reflectors are a problem for your Mega Man... you're throwing out too many charge shots.

You basically pointed out the reason why he's considered bad - damage and knockback. Greninja could have had an even higher position than he is right now if his tilts did a little more damage as his main problem is getting the damage to really knock you far. Megaman has far less ground damage options than Greninja, is more punishable on block, and even landing a smash is a huge challenge let alone knocking them far enough with the damage you can deal on the ground.

 

[Locke 06]

You basically pointed out the reason why he's considered bad - damage and knockback. Greninja could have had an even higher position than he is right now if his tilts did a little more damage as his main problem is getting the damage to really knock you far. Megaman has far less ground damage options than Greninja, is more punishable on block, and even landing a smash is a huge challenge let alone knocking them far enough with the damage you can deal on the ground.

I think you want Mega Man to play more like the rest of the Smash bros roster and you're using that criteria to judge him. The fact of the matter is that he doesn't play like anyone else.... You can't really just throw out smash attacks and not expect them to get punished as Mega Man, but they all have their utility.

Edit: If pellet damage was increased/didn't stale, it'd be straight up unfair. The wall of lemons is real.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I think you want Mega Man to play more like the rest of the Smash bros roster and you're using that criteria to judge him. The fact of the matter is that he doesn't play like anyone else.... You can't really just throw out smash attacks and not expect them to get punished as Mega Man, but they all have their utility.

Edit: If pellet damage was increased/didn't stale, it'd be straight up unfair. The wall of lemons is real.

You have a point for sure, but he can't face up against characters like Rosaluma, Sonic and Lucario by playing uniquely. I like Megaman cause he's lots of fun to play and his nair spacing is definitely real but he just has pretty poor matchups against most of the leading cast this game.

 

[Conda]

When it comes to Megaman, moves like dtilt and dash attack become your replacements for a proper 'tilt', when you want to punish and play short-range keep away. Megaman has fewer moves, effectively, than anyone else due to his pellets taking up his jab, ftilt, and nair slots. Megaman DOES has a decent Nair though, in his pellets - it does good knockback at close range (his body), so while the animation may make it look like it's just a projectile, it isn't - it's got a decent body-box.

He is limited, however. But we're forgetting about his Brawl-metaknight-esque Bair that kills. Once we can cstick, we'll get used to using this as more of a bread-and-butter move.

His uair needs to be focused on as well. We're focusing too much on his utilt and fsmash and dsmash as killers, when they aren't 'dependable'. Throw-uair or tech chase is.

 

[Locke 06]

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/581731305?t=6h45m33s
Here's a video of a Mega Man racking up damage on a Sheik to demonstrate the point.

You have a point for sure, but he can't face up against characters like Rosaluma, Sonic and Lucario by playing uniquely. I like Megaman cause he's lots of fun to play and his nair spacing is definitely real but he just has pretty poor matchups against most of the leading cast this game.

Rosaluma poses problems for sure (although crash bomb blowing up on Luma with splash along with metal blade which pierces can pose problems for her), the other high tier characters in the game I don't see as bad matchups. I think it's heavily in favor of Mega Man for the ZSS matchup, while the Sheik matchup I could see go either way but not heavily one way or another. Sonic kind of gets shut down by Mega Man's wall... his side-B and down-B really can't get through it...

I can see Lucario being difficult due to Aura Sphere eating up pellets, but his aerials being out ranged by Mega's really doesn't make it a bad matchup. And it's not like you can't move after throwing out pellets. Mega Man's mobility while putting up the wall seems to be a little underrated. At least from what I've seen.

When it comes to Megaman, moves like dtilt and dash attack become your replacements for a proper 'tilt', when you want to punish and play short-range keep away. Megaman has fewer moves, effectively, than anyone else due to his pellets taking up his jab, ftilt, and nair slots. Megaman DOES has a decent Nair though, in his pellets - it does good knockback at close range (his body), so while the animation may make it look like it's just a projectile, it isn't - it's got a decent body-box.

He is limited, however. But we're forgetting about his Brawl-metaknight-esque Bair that kills. Once we can cstick, we'll get used to using this as more of a bread-and-butter move.

His uair needs to be focused on as well. We're focusing too much on his utilt and fsmash and dsmash as killers, when they aren't 'dependable'. Throw-uair or tech chase is.

Uair is weird. It's a really good juggle tool, though, but it's... weird. Mega Man's grab game is decent with the juggles and dthrow-FAir combo though.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Rosaluma poses problems for sure (although crash bomb blowing up on Luma with splash along with metal blade which pierces can pose problems for her), the other high tier characters in the game I don't see as bad matchups. I think it's heavily in favor of Mega Man for the ZSS matchup, while the Sheik matchup I could see go either way but not heavily one way or another. Sonic kind of gets shut down by Mega Man's wall... his side-B and down-B really can't get through it...

I can see Lucario being difficult due to Aura Sphere eating up pellets, but his aerials being out ranged by Mega's really doesn't make it a bad matchup. And it's not like you can't move after throwing out pellets. Mega Man's mobility while putting up the wall seems to be a little underrated. At least from what I've seen.

Rosaluma has Gravitational Pull, which is Megaman's ranged game gone completely while Luma takes damage just as well and deals it without even needing to be near Megaman.

ZSS's main counter to Megaman is his light weight - she can jump over his projectiles and f-smash him, and even at a relatively low % she can force him completely offstage, where she rules with her specials.

Same with Sheik, Bouncing Fish takes her over Megaman's projectiles and hurts a heck of a lot before he even has time to react. Needles are also far stronger than any of Megaman's projectiles.

Greninja has a counter, dair cancel with his side-b, and better-ranged aerials than Megaman's. On top of this, he's light weight so Hydro Pump sends him further and Water Shuriken nullifies his projectiles.

I'm afraid it's almost completely against Megaman when it comes to matchups. He does deal well with heavyweights like Bowser and to an extent Shulk but a lot of characters completely run over him.

 

[BBC7]

Greninja has a counter, dair cancel with his side-b, and better-ranged aerials than Megaman's. On top of this, he's light weight so Hydro Pump sends him further and Water Shuriken nullifies his projectiles.

Mega Man is above-average weight, not lightweight. He's 102 on the weight scale, Mario is 98. Water Shuriken also gets nullified by Mega Man's projectiles, unless you charge it which will give Mega Man plenty of time to approach you through the air and get in your space. In fact, Mega Man has the advantage over the Shurikens because he shoots three lemons at once which means he can beat one shuriken and hit Greninja twice.

EDIT: Got the numbers for the weight scale mixed up

 

[Locke 06]

Rosaluma has Gravitational Pull, which is Megaman's ranged game gone completely while Luma takes damage just as well and deals it without even needing to be near Megaman.

ZSS's main counter to Megaman is his light weight - she can jump over his projectiles and f-smash him, and even at a relatively low % she can force him completely offstage, where she rules with her specials.

Same with Sheik, Bouncing Fish takes her over Megaman's projectiles and hurts a heck of a lot before he even has time to react. Needles are also far stronger than any of Megaman's projectiles.

Greninja has a counter, dair cancel with his side-b, and better-ranged aerials than Megaman's. On top of this, he's light weight so Hydro Pump sends him further and Water Shuriken nullifies his projectiles.

I'm afraid it's almost completely against Megaman when it comes to matchups. He does deal well with heavyweights like Bowser and to an extent Shulk but a lot of characters completely run over him.

Rosaluma's gravitational pull isn't much of an issue. Mega Man's projectile game is more mid-range, so if it's used, it gets punished by a dash attack. Luma's body blocking is a problem, but away from Rosalina, Luma is too vulnerable to FSmash, crash bombs, and metal blades.

Mega's not light... Unless you're calling 3/4 of the cast light - http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/
ZSS' F-smash also is rush cancelled out of (whoops), and jumping over lemons and into melee range isn't as easy as it might sound. His projectiles, for the most part are very safe at mid-range, and they eliminate the paralyzer game.

Sheik's BF does take her over Mega's projectiles, but using pellet mobility, you can avoid and punish. That move doesn't define the matchup. Needles can be SH'd over while applying lemon pressure (see video).

I'm convinced that Greninja plays evenly with Mega Man. Mega Man's lemons cancel out the shuriken and you can trade shuriken with FSmash. The loss of a long range game really isn't felt in this matchup... mostly because Mega doesn't play at long range. If you want to SS or counter, it better hit, otherwise you're getting upper'd and KO'd at 85%. As for his aerials, Uair is great, FAir is laggy and I haven't seen it hit a lot in competitive play, and BAir isn't that strong (not as strong as Mega's).

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Mega Man is above-average weight, not lightweight. He's 107 on the weight scale, Mario is 102. Water Shuriken also gets nullified by Mega Man's projectiles, unless you charge it which will give Mega Man plenty of time to approach you through the air and get in your space. In fact, Mega Man has the advantage over the Shurikens because he shoots three lemons at once which means he can beat one shuriken and hit Greninja twice.

I didn't know that about his weight, thanks for the info. The problem with the Water Shuriken argument is that it has very little lag and if the Greninja sees you coming towards him in the air he'll let go of the shuriken and still have enough time to start up his very quick side-b or roll out of the way.

Rosaluma's gravitational pull isn't much of an issue. Mega Man's projectile game is more mid-range, so if it's used, it gets punished by a dash attack. Luma's body blocking is a problem, but away from Rosalina, Luma is too vulnerable to FSmash, crash bombs, and metal blades.

Mega's not light... Unless you're calling 3/4 of the cast light - http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/
ZSS' F-smash also is rush cancelled out of (whoops), and jumping over lemons and into melee range isn't as easy as it might sound. His projectiles, for the most part are very safe at mid-range, and they eliminate the paralyzer game.

Sheik's BF does take her over Mega's projectiles, but using pellet mobility, you can avoid and punish. That move doesn't define the matchup. Needles can be SH'd over while applying lemon pressure (see video).

I'm convinced that Greninja plays evenly with Mega Man. Mega Man's lemons cancel out the shuriken and you can trade shuriken with FSmash. The loss of a long range game really isn't felt in this matchup... mostly because Mega doesn't play at long range. If you want to SS or counter, it better hit, otherwise you're getting upper'd and KO'd at 85%. As for his aerials, Uair is great, FAir is laggy and I haven't seen it hit a lot in competitive play, and BAir isn't that strong (not as strong as Mega's).

I'd agree Megaman certainly isn't at a complete disadvantage in the matchups, which is why he deserves to be a bit more appreciated than he is, but they still swing in the enemies favour cause of Megaman's core weaknesses in lack of strong punishes, long lag and bad smashes. In individual matchups there are certain scenarios hich work out better than others but as long as the enemy understands Megaman's weakneses they're actually quite simple to exploit, and sometimes don't even require active play to exploit. Plus the assumptions here are that both players are at the complete top of their game and the simple fact is Megaman is harder to play than someone like Sheik and so mistakes are easier to make on Megaman.

 

[Locke 06]

I'd agree Megaman certainly isn't at a complete disadvantage in the matchups, which is why he deserves to be a bit more appreciated than he is, but they still swing in the enemies favour cause of Megaman's core weaknesses in lack of strong punishes, long lag and bad smashes. In individual matchups there are certain scenarios hich work out better than others but as long as the enemy understands Megaman's weakneses they're actually quite simple to exploit, and sometimes don't even require active play to exploit. Plus the assumptions here are that both players are at the complete top of their game and the simple fact is Megaman is harder to play than someone like Sheik and so mistakes are easier to make on Megaman.

Wait what...? Strong punish = mega upper. The smash attack argument is trying to fit him into the typical smash bros character, which we acknowledged that he's not. If the assumption here is that both players are at the complete top of their game (which is what I assumed as well), isn't the difficulty of play not an argument? I don't follow Soul Calibur competitively, but I imagine Maxi and Ivy are really good competitively, while almost impossible to play well casually due to the character difficulty due to the complexity of their playstyles.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Wtf does Greninja's D-air -> Side-B have to do with jack squat? Bloody thing is Shield grab/chase bait if I ever saw it.
Wot you gonna cancel your Side-B with?
Nothing.

If I canceled my Down-Airs with Backslash I'd still be vulnerable. The Shadow Sneak out of D-Air is just an occasional mix-up its not even good outside of something stupid like a 2D map.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Wait what...? Strong punish = mega upper. The smash attack argument is trying to fit him into the typical smash bros character, which we acknowledged that he's not. If the assumption here is that both players are at the complete top of their game (which is what I assumed as well), isn't the difficulty of play not an argument? I don't follow Soul Calibur competitively, but I imagine Maxi and Ivy are really good competitively, while almost impossible to play well casually due to the character difficulty due to the complexity of their playstyles.

I'm a Soul Calibur fan and Ivy is low tier in SC4, a little better in SC5 X3 Maxi's gotten buffs in recent games but he's not brilliant. And yeah that top of their game argument is a bit silly in retrospect. Realistically, though, if they weren't then my point stands.

Wtf does Greninja's D-air -> Side-B have to do with jack squat? Bloody thing is Shield grab/chase bait if I ever saw it.
Wot you gonna cancel your Side-B with?
Nothing.

If I canceled my Down-Airs with Backslash I'd still be vulnerable. The Shadow Sneak out of D-Air is just an occasional mix-up its not even good outside of something stupid like a 2D map.

Side-b doesn't have to go towards the enemy when cancelling dair, and it doesn't have to be used at all. in fact Greninja's dair is only really safe when used on an aerial opponent or punishing a whiffed attack, in which case if you miss it's your own fault, so it's not as usable as a less laggy attack like his nair or bair.

EDIT: Also, concerning my bringing it up, it's as a useful move when considering Megaman's slow animations. On a stage like Battlefield or Yoshi's Island everything changes and I'd argue Megaman will be much more usable there, but assuming this is a wider/more open stage like Prism Tower or FD it's a powerful punish tool for his laggy moves.

 

[Signia]

Wait what...? Strong punish = mega upper. The smash attack argument is trying to fit him into the typical smash bros character, which we acknowledged that he's not. If the assumption here is that both players are at the complete top of their game (which is what I assumed as well), isn't the difficulty of play not an argument? I don't follow Soul Calibur competitively, but I imagine Maxi and Ivy are really good competitively, while almost impossible to play well casually due to the character difficulty due to the complexity of their playstyles.

Actually, there's a lesson there: Complexity or difficulty doesn't always means the character is strong once mastered. Maxi has never been very high on anyone's lists in any game, except in the latest version where he's as high as mid tier because he has solid basic moves. Maxi actually does better in casual play because people don't how to deal with his stances. Ivy is usually pretty rewarding of mastery, except in the latest version where she's been both simplified and weakened, but is still a solid pick, again, due to having strong basic moves.

Having the basic tools that the game is designed around is very important, and even if you have bandaid fixes to specific situations where you're lacking the usual common solution, you might be lacking in other regards. Not having a real jab, ftilt, or nair definitely has it's share of problems. Yeah, the attacks do more knockback from the arm cannon, but no fast jab means no quick punish or interrupt, no long ftilt means no quick turnaround attack that knocks away, no fast nair means no great aerial interrupt, and no body-hitbox nair and generally slow aerial options means there's a lot of exploitable gaps in his hitbox coverage.

I'm a Soul Calibur fan and Ivy is low tier in SC4

I know we're not here to argue about Soul Calibur, but Ivy was considered by many to be the best character in SCIV behind hilde, who was banned. Ironic that Soul Calibur is brought up right after I switch my avatar.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I know we're not here to argue about Soul Calibur, but Ivy was considered by many to be the best character in SCIV behind hilde, who was banned. Ironic that Soul Calibur is brought up right after I switch my avatar.

Really? I wasn't a huge follower of the scene but I always heard Ivy was borderline trash cause her combos were hard to hit/easy to punish. Evolving meta I guess!

 

[Locke 06]

I'm a Soul Calibur fan and Ivy is low tier in SC4, a little better in SC5 X3 Maxi's gotten buffs in recent games but he's not brilliant. And yeah that top of their game argument is a bit silly in retrospect. Realistically, though, if they weren't then my point stands.

EDIT: Also, concerning my bringing it up, it's as a useful move when considering Megaman's slow animations. On a stage like Battlefield or Yoshi's Island everything changes and I'd argue Megaman will be much more usable there, but assuming this is a wider/more open stage like Prism Tower or FD it's a powerful punish tool for his laggy moves.

Now I'm confused, because I still had the assumption that the characters were being played at the best of their ability (not TAS perfect, but professional level). Mega Man isn't designed to throw out kill moves frequently (unless you count his BAir) and has a great safe mid-range game. Any unsafe options used to approach Mega Man read correctly can get punished by utilt/dtilt or a grab. Also, wide/more open stages play better for Mega Man as you can escape his pressure/wall through platforms.

@ Signia - Yeah, that was an oversight on my part. Ivy was more along the lines of what I was thinking as I've actually seen her used well. Maxi... not so much... but he came to mind due to the complexity of his move set.

Lacking basic tools and playing differently also can make other characters play a game more unfamiliar to them. Yes, the game is designed for them, but Mega Man's basic tools also play very well in this game. It's foreign, but I wouldn't say it's any worse.

Mega's FAir and Bair are pretty quick/quicker than most and have good range. So, I'm not sure what you mean by the slow aerial options. He gets combo'd by rush down characters and juggled because of his DAir takes a while to start up, which is true. However, his fast fall speed is exceptional and recovery allows him to reset to neutral decently well. Exploiting the hit-box weaknesses isn't really that easy, as he has strengths to make up for it.

I'm not trying to put him in the pantheon of great characters, but I think he's much better than bottom or middle tier and I haven't found a reason to put him down there.

 

[Cherubas]

In terms of %'s and knockback, I guess you could say he has the weakest neutrals, but his neutral game is one of the best out of the entire cast. He'll keep you out of jab/smash range with his pellets/MB/CB and when the opponent gets a little reckless with their approach, he has his highly mobile dtilt and dash attack. His smash attacks have a lot of lag, but that just means you can't throw them out to fish for kills. The charge shot, however, can be very safe depending on the situation, as the range on it is really unique.

As you mentioned, his aerials are brilliant and rush-canceling in the right hands eliminates so many KO moves it's silly. Rush also allows him to go deep off stage to use those aerials as edge guarding tools.

As for punishing, utilt is a brilliant OOS option as it kills so early and comes out so quickly. Sure, he has no ftilt or a "get off me" NAir, but he sacrifices those for a great neutral game and insane punishes.

Also, if reflectors are a problem for your Mega Man... you're throwing out too many charge shots.

I wouldn't take his pellets over most people's jab combos. They're so slow that people can easily attack between them/punish after/jump over/whatever and they barely have any range, it's easy to dash in after the third one for any character who doesn't move like Robin. Dtilt and dash attack aren't kill moves or anything, but they are invitations to get shield grabbed. As for throwing out too many charge shots I use about 2 fsmashes per match because they're sooooooooooooooooooo easy to see coming. They even come with an audio cue.

You later go on to say you can't play him like the rest of the cast (which is what I said in my post and the reason I said I don't like to play him much) and you harp on the fact that you can't throw his moves out there, you have to use reads and punish properly, but guess what.... That can be applied to anyone. ALL characters benefit from using the right moves at the right time. That's WHY Mega Man is so often considered low tier, because the tier list is comparatively speaking. It's not whether or not Mega Man has the potential to hit stuff and do damage, it's how well he can do it COMPARED TO everyone else. There are characters with safe moves and guaranteed combos and then there are characters with major ending lag on most of their good moves. Mega Man is the latter. When you asked why people thought Mega Man was low tier I thought you honestly wanted an answer, but it seems like you just wanted to argue about how well Mega Man does against a player who apparently never reacts to anything and has no idea how to use a reflector.

Yes, your Mega Man is top tier against all level 2 CPUs. Congratulations. For the rest of the world, Mega Man is low tier.

 

[Locke 06]

I wouldn't take his pellets over most people's jab combos. They're so slow that people can easily attack between them/punish after/jump over/whatever and they barely have any range, it's easy to dash in after the third one for any character who doesn't move like Robin. Dtilt and dash attack aren't kill moves or anything, but they are invitations to get shield grabbed. As for throwing out too many charge shots I use about 2 fsmashes per match because they're sooooooooooooooooooo easy to see coming. They even come with an audio cue.

You later go on to say you can't play him like the rest of the cast (which is what I said in my post and the reason I said I don't like to play him much) and you harp on the fact that you can't throw his moves out there, you have to use reads and punish properly, but guess what.... That can be applied to anyone. ALL characters benefit from using the right moves at the right time. That's WHY Mega Man is so often considered low tier, because the tier list is comparatively speaking. It's not whether or not Mega Man has the potential to hit stuff and do damage, it's how well he can do it COMPARED TO everyone else. There are characters with safe moves and guaranteed combos and then there are characters with major ending lag on most of their good moves. Mega Man is the latter. When you asked why people thought Mega Man was low tier I thought you honestly wanted an answer, but it seems like you just wanted to argue about how well Mega Man does against a player who apparently never reacts to anything and has no idea how to use a reflector.

Yes, your Mega Man is top tier against all level 2 CPUs. Congratulations. For the rest of the world, Mega Man is low tier.

Wow, okay. Apparently I play against level 2 CPU's. That's cool. I'll put that comment aside.

You can move while shooting. Also jump. Very few characters can attack between them and even then they have enough range to be outside of every tilt. Mega Man doesn't just sit there firing pellets at long range... they don't have that much range, as you said. You clearly do not understand his pellet game, and therefore I really don't think you can make a judgement on how viable he is as a competitive character.

Also, dtilt and dash attacks are crossups, so the correct punish is not a shield grab, but a pivot tilt. If you want to shield grab my dash attack, you're going to get caught in it. FSmash is easy to see coming, but it trades with projectiles and is a great edge guarding tool/landing trap move.

Edit: As for the rest of the cast, the majority of the rest of the cast cannot punish like Mega Man. I don't see many characters killing at 80% with a move that has maybe 3 frames of startup? His move set is diverse, so understanding when to use what is more important with him than with other characters. That's why I bring that up, because it sounds like everyone just tries to smash attack with him or long-range CB/MB camping, which leads to terrible Mega Man gameplay.

 

[BBC7]

I wouldn't take his pellets over most people's jab combos. They're so slow that people can easily attack between them/punish after/jump over/whatever and they barely have any range.

You're literally talking about a move that has extremely great range for a jab, and allows you to move even before the attack is finished, which also means you can Nair or F-Tilt. They do less damage than a Jab Combo, so what? They aren't pain rackers as much as they are safe options for damage and priority, and even they can do some nice damage if the opponent doesn't attempt to avoid them.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Hey guys, just found something quite interesting from a little experimenting. I was playing Palutena against a Lv3 Ness just to get the hang of her with her default specials, and I threw Ness offstage with my fthrow. Here's the interesting bit - he was on decently high % so he had to up-b to recover, but I used Auto Reticule and the shots hit the trail of his PK Thunder as he shifted slightly downwards as you do when using it, cancelling the move entirely and leaving him to freefall to his death. Possible Palutena counterpick against Ness?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bold statement: I currently think Sonic is the best character in the game.

He has power, speed, damage racking, and safety. He has no weaknesses other than an irrelevant lack of range and an irrelevant lack of projectiles. Hammer Spin Dash is probably the best move in the game; the risk-reward ratio is preposterous.

Sonic does a tapdance on Rosalina's face. Luma is basically killed at-will, on command with full safety. Add his formidable juggle game, and you have pegged her squarely in both her big weaknesses. His gap close makes him a nightmare for Villager as well.

Large, lingering vertical hitboxes are the only thing that interrupts the Hammer Spin Dash pain train, and Sonic is well-equipped to deal with these moves otherwise. His dash attack is effective and relatively safe. U-smash has incredible priority and kill power.

I played some wi-fi matches with Ampharos testing various matchups. His inexperienced Sonic beat all of my mains but Palutena doing almost exclusive Hammer Spin Dash. (Palutena was narrow wins too; I also won with Little Mac and Robin when he made technical errors--Ganondorf's matchup is probably similarly winnable)

Then I went Sonic, and spammed Hammer Spin Dash. As a first-time Sonic spamming one move, I beat his (strong) Rosalina and Bowser really easily. I honestly have no idea what he was supposed to do.

Is it the controls and the lag, that is making this overwhelmingly good? Maybe (Ampharos thought so), but I'm skeptical. I do not think Hammer Spin Dash will prove punishable on reaction out of lag, even for characters with the tools to interrupt it. It hits about 15 frames after the input/animation-start/sound-effect. That is not enough time to react and pull out a u-tilt or react, jump, and uair.

The mixups out of it are incredible. Sonic can space it to hit from above or in front, or can jsut run and grab you. He can jump out at any point, including before he hits you. He an dair or homing attack out of this jump if needed, to punish any would-be answer. He can decide any aerial to do after the safe hit on your shield.

I really can't see this character not being decidedly the best, unless controls and lag really do prove to be the catalyzing factors here.

Man, **** this character being so blatantly good. Such a cancerous character should have never been buffed.

 

[Meru.]

Most characters in this game have terrible approaches and play footsies to make up for it. Yoshi's approach and ability to force you to approach are both mediocre (Egg Toss is pretty limited in neutral, and his grab is super unreliable offensively). Strong character, though this is partly because his OOS options are better than Zelda's. Zelda having a bad "approach" is sorta missing the point.

Zelda actually has a very good DA/Dashgrab mixup, one of the better ones in this game in fact. You can argue it's a risk, but it's applicable to everyone, keeping in mind Zelda's reward on successful hit is very good. And then she has really strong tools like Jab and D-tilt and F-smash to play footsies that are also safe and rewarding on hit.

Really, you just listed problems nearly every character in the game except odd cases like Pac-Man and Pikachu have dealing with juggles (Zelda's D-air btw has a good hitbox for contesting juggles, and the weak meteor is not bad). Zelda gets out of 95% of traps for free in a game where the entire cast basically relies heavily on traps to secure KOs. As Zelda if you are not living to 150% most stocks, you made a critical error somewhere because basically nobody should be landing Smashes on you because you get back to neutral so easily.

"You can get back to neutral easily" This is exactly the problem. Zelda relies on her neutral ALL THE TIME. The moment she starts running or jumping or doing anything else that is not just standing or walking, her options become severely limited. A character like Falco in Brawl was also heavily reliant on his neutral but that was okay since 90% of that cast was forced to chase him, his grabs were scary, he also had options in the air or while running among many more things. Zelda doesn't shoot lasers or Side B to the other side of stages. With a gameplan like hers, there are times when she has to run or jump or do anything other than standing or walking as well. The only things she can do is dash attack, Nayru's Love and grab. None of these moves are exceptionally good. The former two are unsafe on shield. Zelda is one of the, if not the, most limited characters when it comes to this. At least Yoshi still has a great projectile, aerials he can space and aren't terribly unsafe of shield, a grab he can use in the air and crazy air mobility.

That, and his neutral easily competes with Zelda since her neutral isn't SO GOOD it compensates for this lethal flaw. She can still get outspaced by plenty of moves and most of her moves don't come out exactly fast either. Jab isn't rewarding, what does she want to do? Chase the character with her snail-like speed? Use her crappy projectile? Zelda can't afford to stay in neutral all the time. She will get out of it and when she is, she is at a disadvantage.

She just needs to get in a good DA/Dashgrab mixup, and then land trap and edgeguard correctly to win games

If her opponents land right next to her, then yeah, she could trap them and she can land damaging hits with good knockback. If not, she can only use her crappy Dins, her crappy Phantom, her laggy UpB or she has to chase the opponent with Dash Attack. Chasing and running aren't things Zelda is good at and her neutral doesn't cover these options. Chasing in the air is an absolute no. Zelda has a few good options for punishing landing and "traps" but it isn't anywhere near godlike.

 

[Luco]

Hey guys, just found something quite interesting from a little experimenting. I was playing Palutena against a Lv3 Ness just to get the hang of her with her default specials, and I threw Ness offstage with my fthrow. Here's the interesting bit - he was on decently high % so he had to up-b to recover, but I used Auto Reticule and the shots hit the trail of his PK Thunder as he shifted slightly downwards as you do when using it, cancelling the move entirely and leaving him to freefall to his death. Possible Palutena counterpick against Ness?

It would really depend on where Ness was when he used PK Thunder. It's a bit situational because the auto-reticle will only go where Ness is - so other than that you have little control over the projectiles themselves. Thus, it can be avoided much easier than say, pit.

That said i'd like to test it because I could be wrong and it may be very difficult to prevent the ball from being hit by the reticle. :o

 

[The Real Gamer]

So far Sonic is the least fun character in the game for me to play against by far.

It's silly how easily that character can get in for such little risk.

Charge spindash > go for spindash combo > reset to neutral > charge spindash > go for spindash combo > reset to neutral > fake a spindash > go for grab > throw > reset to neutral > charge spindash...

yuck

 

[M15t3R E]

All this talk about Sonic. It's funny because, let's face it, Sonic was terrible in Brawl.
I faced a Sonic player last night. We played 6 games. The first two times he stomped me even though I saw his attacks coming. It was so frustrating. The third game I wisened up on my second stock and was able to punish his approaches as my reaction time was like a cat. I won the next three with the last game being a shutout.
I'm not sure if this was a relatively good Sonic or not but if not, that scares me. It took me a while to learn how to adjust. I've never had to react and learn as fast against any character as I did against Sonic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

All this talk about Sonic. It's funny because, let's face it, Sonic was terrible in Brawl.
I faced a Sonic player last night. We played 6 games. The first two times he stomped me even though I saw his attacks coming. It was so frustrating. The third game I wisened up on my second stock and was able to punish his approaches as my reaction time was like a cat. I won the next three with the last game being a shutout.
I'm not sure if this was a relatively good Sonic or not but if not, that scares me. It took me a while to learn how to adjust. I've never had to react and learn as fast against any character as I did against Sonic.

He was terrible, mostly because he literally didn't have a real way to KO you pre-200% if you always picked the safest option. And then he'd lose to you just fishing for trades in positions where he wasn't able to B-air you.

Still a cancerous character that really should have never been made viable in his current design.

Pikachu is also really cancerous imo.