Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

You keep saying Mario doc are weak but I don't see it in fact I really don't. Luigi I havent touched much no one is really playing him. If by some change some walk-off counterpicks get in I think he can hang but his vertical recov is poop.

Short range, can't easily set up KOs early, easily edgeguarded and juggled.

They're bad in neutral, even worse in the negative state, and they don't have easy ways of getting outstanding reward to make up for that. Ganondorf at least has some moves with good range and hits ridiculously hard on everything he does. That's right. The Marios actually struggle to beat Ganondorf of all characters.

 

[Conda]

Super Speed alone is enough to turn around her entire game. It is easily one of the best moves in the game.



I think the opposite. As time passes I think the Koopalings will go up in the ranks. His Smashes are punishable, but that hardly matters when they have other kill options. Koopalings main way to kill will be though edge guarding, which they are very good at doing since they can go deep. Other then that Bair and Uair are pretty good kill moves as well. As for the Mecha Koopas, if you switch to the big one, 3rd Dspecial, you don't have to worry about catching up to one so you can pick it up as you can pick up the big one without even moving. I also believe most of their attacks are considered disjointed, someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, and have good range to them. They have a good Jab, good tilts, and good aerials, and can recover from deep giving them a solid on-stage and off-stage game.

But the way most of the people that are playing them is kinda meh. To much Koopa Kart, it's nice in theory but is really just too slow, and trying to use Mecha Koopas for stage control by letting them walk around instead of picking them up or approaching with them.

....

also on the Palutena talk, I think it is worth keeping in mind that she can nullify a good portion of attacks (all?) with Dash Attack and Bair, at least from my experience they have stopped a good portion of attacks.

Totally agree about bowser jr and how others have been playing him. I think he has some problems against projectile characters though.

 

[Berserker.]

olimar runs on hopes and dreams, which evidently are not very strong. He has killing power but his whole style is clunky and buggy with the changes. Think Rosalina if rosalina lost half her kit when luma died, part of the kit was dedicated to resurrecting luma, luma had ai suicidal tendencies, and if she had more lag, less range and longer grab reach, an easier to deny recovery....actually dont compare him to rosalina.

Dont forget those times where they block/dodge/bait and now you are lighter than jigglypuff...and eat a ness backthrow from 60% or something nuts like that.

That's why you activate it at the precise moment.

Like, when your grabbing them and you u-throw to (simultaneously activate smash) u-tilt

 

[Galgatha]

how do you guys view Falco in terms of being competitive??

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Short range, can't easily set up KOs early, easily edgeguarded and juggled.

They're bad in neutral, even worse in the negative state, and they don't have easy ways of getting outstanding reward to make up for that. Ganondorf at least has some moves with good range and hits ridiculously hard.

Mario has far better edge guard tools than Ganon, faster tilts in general that he can follow up on, an actual projectile game. Mobility on ground and in air to boot, no I don't see your argument. His smashes come out faster on top of that D-Smash in particular.

As far as lack of range goes, I'd say Kirby is a more prominent figure in that department.

That's why you activate it at the precise moment.

Like, when your grabbing them and you u-throw to (simultaneously activate smash) u-tilt

Going from u-throw to smash gives them more than enough time to brace for a u-tilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario has far better edge guard tools than Canon, faster tilts in general that he can follow up on, a projectile game. Mobility, no I don't see your argument.

Lol, better edgeguard tools.

Mario can't do this.

Yes Mario has faster tilts. They do half the damage Ganon does. Keeping in mind that Mario is bad at comboing characters that aren't Ganondorf and Ike, when virtually everyone else can basically jump out or N-air Mario out of his tilt strings. Ganondorf's F-tilt not only is one of the strongest general KO moves in the game, it sends people SIDEWAYS which easily gimps. And Ganon's D-tilt has incredible range and also puts people in bad positions, which...frankly matters a lot more when it's Ganondorf.

Mario's projectile game is crap. Fast Fireballs are decent, but only do 2 damage max. The other fireballs are generally speaking really unsafe in midrange and are best used for followups or edgeguards.

Mario's superior mobility gives him a slightly more reliable DA/grab mixup, okay. Keeping in mind Ganondorf does over twice as much damage when he gets in, actually has some theatening options to scare people into not juggling him recklessly, and generally has way more ways to kill characters than Mario.

Let's be real. Where did you seriously think Mario was beating Ganon?

Kirby at any rate has a superior B-air to Mario, can duck under more things, has Down-B and D-air to force people to respect his landing (D-air even starts combos on hit), and his F-tilt and D-tilt are noticeably better than Mario's. Plus his F-air is actually good for spacing. And his low percent combos are more reliable than Mario's.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mario is just fine in this game, he can mix up on block a lot like Pikachu can, he has super fast tilts, good enough range (mid range spacers will most definitely beat him though), a decent projectile, ridiculous combo/grab game, and kill confirms. He also can completely body a handful of recoveries. Like, I can make 2 reads and they're at 80%-100% due to his ridiculous combos/strings, then one more and its either a kill or sets up for more follow ups. Solid character is solid.

Doc on the otherhand I can see being bottom 5, but Mario, no way is he even bottom 10.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Videos of backairs like Mario doesn't have one? Warlock kick like Fludd and cape aren't there.

Ganondorf has to get in first before its even discussable.
Kirby has better combos but less range, and more situational specials. While I do find jumping Inhale, upper cutter and even hammer bash useful, Mario *starts* with better specials, however even including customs Mario still finds a better mid-range game on a general level. Mind you Im seriously warming up to custom Kirby despite his faults but the Mario bottom 5? Its ludicrous.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Plus, Mario has more range than Kirby and more mobility. Kirby has more jumps on Mario and a safer offstage game, but thats about it.

 

[Berserker.]

Going from u-throw to smash gives them more than enough time to brace for a u-tilt.

You're still at an advantage though at that moment. You can let 'em land and make them eat an f-tilt, or just land u-tilt. It's not that hard to land u-tilt, even though if they're bracing for one. They're still in the position to get hit anyway

Or just dash u-smash. Anyway, it's all about precise usage

Edit: Air slash KO's hard. At 65% near the edge

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario is just fine in this game, he can mix up on block a lot like Pikachu can, he has super fast tilts, good enough range (mid range spacers will most definitely beat him though), a decent projectile, ridiculous combo/grab game, and kill confirms. He also can completely body a handful of recoveries. Like, I can make 2 reads and they're at 80%-100% due to his ridiculous combos/strings, then one more and its either a kill or sets up for more follow ups. Solid character is solid.

Doc on the otherhand I can see being bottom 5, but Mario, no way is he even bottom 10.

Ridiculous combo game. Seriously.

Mario has to hard read someone three times to barely break 50% when you factor how unreliable his tilt and aerial combos are. LITTLE MAC CAN NAIR MARIO OUT OF HIS U-TILT STRINGS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Your numbers are just flat out incorrect.

His mixups on block are okay, but Mario has to respect shieldgrabs, and he does not have Pikachu's broken mobility to force unfavorable commitments and approach from unpunishable angles. It doesn't mean much that you have above average shield pressure when you still have to respect so many options when you play Mario, and have to work hard to get in in the first place.

Kill confirms? Unless D-throw Explosive Punch works at all percents, it's extremely difficult to confirm a kill with Mario. His aerials don't kill, and he doesn't have ways to set up his Smashes outside of universal land trapping, which Mario is only average at best at doing. And his Smashes don't kill early except F-smash, which requires hard reads to land.

Mario's edgeguarding is decent, but he critically lacks aerial KO options meaning if you don't get gimped by FLUDD and Cape, he can't kill you easily.

Plus, Mario has more range than Kirby and more mobility. Kirby has more jumps on Mario and a safer offstage game, but thats about it.

Just objectively incorrect.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

To be fair, Mac can Nair a lot of people out of anything. It comes out really fast. Not like it's really effective or anything but it works.

But, yeah. Carry on.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Z'zgashi]

Man, I dont even feel like arguing this, its obvious you just want to feel like Mario is bad, and I dont have the patience to try and actually think about the details for all the reasons why Mario is fine and put them on to paper.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Videos of backairs like Mario doesn't have one? Warlock kick like Fludd and cape aren't there.

Ganondorf has to get in first before its even discussable.
Kirby has better combos but less range, and more situational specials. While I do find jumping Inhale, upper cutter and even hammer bash useful, Mario *starts* with better specials, however even including customs Mario still finds a better mid-range game on a general level. Mind you Im seriously warming up to custom Kirby despite his faults but the Mario bottom 5? Its ludicrous.

Mario also sucks at getting in. And Mario's B-air doesn't kill. Ganondorf just hits you with ANYTHING offstage, factoring that his aerials actually have really huge and fast hitboxes that control space easily, and you die. Mario can't do that, and that's a huge disadvantage when edgeguarding.

Man, I dont even feel like arguing this, its obvious you just want to feel like Mario is bad, and I dont have the patience to try and actually think about the details for all the reasons why Mario is fine and put them on to paper.

I'm not the only one who believes Mario is bad in this game. And furthermore, I know your information is NUMERICALLY INCORRECT. You don't have an argument until you prove your information is sound. Furthermore you didn't even list a single example of what KO confirms Mario actually has. Which he actually doesn't have any except FF D-air -> D-smash, which is situational as hell.

Mario's combos aren't reliable except in like 2 or 3 specific matchups, he can't easily kill people early, and he gets wrecked by juggles and edgeguards. Plus he's just really bad in neutral. He's less terrible in neutral than Doc, but not by a lot.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Top Tier: Definitely agree with the placement of

High Tier: I agree with (changes in position though) and possibly firmly holding their position at High Tier. Bowser will definitely go down as time progresses (where exactly? Idk) and the hype around him slowly decrease. Lack of knowledge on Captain Falcon so I can't say anything.

High Mid-Tier: Seems about correct.. I question though.. My lack of knowledge on him and because nobody really talks about him. He also hasn't had a strong presence in the game at the moment.

High Mid/Mid Tier: I definitely see her/him sitting in one of these tiers. Either towards the end of High Mid-Tier (above Rob if he remains) or behind Shulk.

Mid Tier: OK. I don't have much knowledge on characters here. I somewhat know Meta Knight, Mario, Pit/Dark Pit & Pikachu but that's it. Obviously not enough.

Low Mid-Tier: I disagree with being in low mid-tier. is pretty meh without customs. I feel he should be lower. I would add to this tier.

Low Mid/Low Tier: super duper debatable.

Low Tier: Palutena without customs is simply sad and depressing. Ike is in the same boat as Palutena but he's not as bad. I know G&W has lost a lot of what made him, but he still has some stuff. Luigi is definitely not bottom tier. Luigi still has a great air game and good shield pressure.

Low/Bottom Tier: He's slow and this game is basically dominated by fast characters so that really hurts him but he has armor on his move(s) and is crazy strong. I really don't know.. He'll probably end up low tier if anything lol.

Bottom Tier: Huge improvement from brawl ganon imo. He's bad but not baaaaaaaaad if you know what I mean. From the customs I've seen, his seem ok. Still has booty matchups. Olimar.. oh how the mighty have fallen. He's just.. bleh.

 

[deepseadiva]

What is a "bad" projectile in this game if were calling Fireballs decent.

They seem pretty horrid tbh

 

[Galgatha]

Top Tier: Definitely agree with the placement of

High Tier: I agree with (changes in position though) and possibly firmly holding their position at High Tier. Bowser will definitely go down as time progresses (where exactly? Idk) and the hype around him slowly decrease. Lack of knowledge on Captain Falcon so I can't say anything.

High Mid-Tier: Seems about correct.. I question though.. My lack of knowledge on him and because nobody really talks about him. He also hasn't had a strong presence in the game at the moment.

High Mid/Mid Tier: I definitely see her/him sitting in one of these tiers. Either towards the end of High Mid-Tier (above Rob if he remains) or behind Shulk.

Mid Tier: OK. I don't have much knowledge on characters here. I somewhat know Meta Knight, Mario, Pit/Dark Pit & Pikachu but that's it. Obviously not enough.

Low Mid-Tier: I disagree with being in low mid-tier. is pretty meh without customs. I feel he should be lower. I would add to this tier.

Low Mid/Low Tier: super duper debatable.

Low Tier: Palutena without customs is simply sad and depressing. Ike is in the same boat as Palutena but he's not as bad. I know G&W has lost a lot of what made him, but he still has some stuff. Luigi is definitely not bottom tier. Luigi still has a great air game and good shield pressure.

Low/Bottom Tier: He's slow and this game is basically dominated by fast characters so that really hurts him but he has armor on his move(s) and is crazy strong. I really don't know.. He'll probably end up low tier if anything lol.

Bottom Tier: Huge improvement from brawl ganon imo. He's bad but not baaaaaaaaad if you know what I mean. From the customs I've seen, his seem ok. Still has booty matchups. Olimar.. oh how the mighty have fallen. He's just.. bleh.

where would you place Falco on that list?? I am deffinetly interested in hearing people's opinion on Falcos competitive game.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Mario's edgeguarding is decent, but he critically lacks aerial KO options meaning if you don't get gimped by FLUDD and Cape, he can't kill you easily.

Back air, forward air.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Back air, forward air.

B-air doesn't kill, as stated. And Mario's F-air is gimmicky as hell when it's slow, and has almost no range, and requires a sweetspot to really do anything. It's also laggy on whiff, meaning you can't cover a lot of options with F-air.

Almost every other character in the game has a fast aerial that can SORTA KO, or in fact KO rather early. Mario is one of the only characters who doesn't have this luxury. This is a massive disadvantage when you are unable to gimp people with FLUDD and Cape easily, because it forces Mario to land Smashes to KO. Which is MUCH harder when he doesn't have good Jab cancels in this game.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

B-air doesn't kill, as stated. And Mario's F-air is gimmicky as hell when it's slow, and has almost no range, and requires a sweetspot to really do anything. It's also laggy on whiff, meaning you can't cover a lot of options with F-air.

On stage it won't. As for edgeguarding back air is a kill confirm. An unsweetspotted fair provides sufficient Horizontal knockback

 

[Z'zgashi]

NUMERICALLY INCORRECT.

What does that even mean lol

High Mid/Mid Tier:

Nah she's pretty bad, I've been playing a lot of WFT and I can tell you she's Low Mid at best, probably even Low Tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On stage it won't. As for edgeguarding back air is a kill confirm.

At what, 150%? That's cool.

What does that even mean lol

You stated that you can get people to 80-100% in 2 reads.

Just do the math on Mario's moves (U-air and U-tilt do like 7%, D-throw is only 5%, B-air is 10% max), factor that his strings are interruptible or escapable by jumping. You literally are numerically incorrect.

Mario needs to hard read his opponent about 3 times to realistically do more like 50%. This isn't Brawl Mario who could potentially do about 64% in 2 reads.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

At what, 150%? That's cool.

If you are bowser maybe

 

[MisterVisceral]

Back air, forward air.

Can't really chase with those, though, because you'll have to get back on the stage afterwards. Which Mario pretty much can't do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you are bowser maybe

That will only work if B-air is fresh. Or if you replace Bowser's name with Zelda. Everyone else in contrast except Pikachu (who outclasses Mario pretty noticeably) would be able to consider KOing at least 20% earlier than Mario.

 

[Berserker.]

A2, I think you're over exaggerating Mario's weaknesses here. I mean, believe me. I agree with everything you said about Mario's disadvantages but it's not that level of bad. Well, maybe Mario's KO'ing is that bad.

Blurgh. I'll just play as Mario again so I can have a better grasp on him. Maybe I might fully agree or disagree with you

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2, I think you're over exaggerating Mario's weaknesses here. I mean, believe me. I agree with everything you said about Mario's disadvantages but it's not that level of bad. Well, maybe Mario's KO'ing is that bad.

Blurgh. I'll just play as Mario again so I can have a better grasp on him. Maybe I might fully agree or disagree with you

The thing I'm not arguing that should be understood is there is no Melee/Brawl top tier in this game (well, until it's proven Rosalina is excessively dumb). So the bottom tier is more like really low mid tier in this game.

That being said, the Marios are basically among the worst characters in the game. They never were strong at footsies, and they were always terrible in trap situations. The metagame is basically footsies and traps, which especially after nerfing these characters and removing some of their important options for trapping or dealing with traps, makes them worse overall.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

where would you place Falco on that list?? I am deffinetly interested in hearing people's opinion on Falcos competitive game.

Haven't really looked at him so I can't answer this unfortunately.

What does that even mean lol


Nah she's pretty bad, I've been playing a lot of WFT and I can tell you she's Low Mid at best, probably even Low Tier.

I'd have to disagree

 

[ChronoPenguin]

That will only work if B-air is fresh. Or if you replace Bowser's name with Zelda. Everyone else in contrast except Pikachu (who outclasses Mario pretty noticeably) would be able to consider KOing at least 20% earlier than Mario.

Mario's D-Smash comes out more than fast enough with enough KB to set-up an edge guard option defensively as does back-throw offensively.

Can't really chase with those, though, because you'll have to get back on the stage afterwards. Which Mario pretty much can't do.

Mario can't go deep that's a given. Its part of why I prefer other characters I go deep by nature. His tools at the edge itself however are significant we only need Greninja hydro-pump to remind us and a decade of cape.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's D-Smash comes out more than fast enough with enough KB to set-up an edge guard option defensively as does back-throw offensively.

Mario's D-smash also only does 10%, and it's unsafe on block. The risk/reward ratio for this move is NOT FAVORABLE unless you're saving it for KOs. Mario can't just throw out this move and expect to profit.

B-throw is still good, but not good enough. Mario isn't scary when he grabs you. He can't really kill you without a Smash, and his grab reward is mostly just damage.

 

[Smog Frog]

i still request an explanation on why zard is low tier, i think he's better than zelda

 

[Yokoblue]

Doesn't Nakat or a Top player just played a round with Mario in Finals or semis of a big tournament ?
The one Clash tournament had today. We can guess the top players are at least playing decent character as counter picks ? We can see a good part of the potential of the character probably in that game.
Mario has good combos as seen in the tournament. He's clearly not high tier, not even mid, but bottom ?? Really ?

Same point can be made for Zelda, isn't Dabuz or someone around as good playing Zelda and winning a bunch ? This tier list is almost perfect but I think we need the results of Shockwave, Tourney locator and Clash tournaments to perfect it. I think they are the bigger tournaments going on theses days.

I also think Rob should be higher since he got Chibo and a couple others playing him and he wins a lot against sheik and other high tier characters.

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/581731305 : You can see at 8:30:00 the Mario game im talking about

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Tourneys right now aren't that concrete given players are still testing who they like, what customs they want, and if they need to ditch X character because of the presence of Y.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm liking how people think Link's a low tier, when he has the attributes of a high tier now:

-Fast attacks, due to all of the speed buffs he had gotten for his attacks, which all resemble his Project M counterpart's. His attacks, especially D-Air, have far less ending lag.
-Faster land speed and air speed, as well as lower air falling speed and higher jumps.
-Has three meteor attacks (four if you count Meteor Bombs) and one semi-spike (D-Smash Back).
-Smaller body frame, so less of a hurtbox.
-Automatic Shield in the form of the Hylian Shield, which renders some characters, like Mega Man, quite bad.
-Has much more knockback on all attacks, save for the D-Air.

He seems to have very even matchups with some characters, like Rosalina and Little Mac. Rosalina because they would have to clash against each other and Link's heavy knockback vs Rosalina's low knockback attacks. Little Mac because Link can basically gimp the hell out of Mac below 100%, provided it's at the precise distance and angle.

Now Link can basically intense counter the following right here:


Do I even need to spell it out?

 

[The Light Music Club]

I've noticed people are starting to move Palutena down on their lists. Is their a reason for that? I don't watch pros play, I just play myself so I have no idea why she's been dropping off.

 

[Berserker.]

I've noticed people are starting to move Palutena down on their lists. Is their a reason for that? I don't watch pros play, I just play myself so I have no idea why she's been dropping off.

They have their reasons but ultimately, it's their first impressions and opinions.

Plus, tier lists this early are dumb

 

[Yokoblue]

By the way, my view COMPLETELY changed of Villagers when I saw Zee playing him in the tournament
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/581731305
Look at this at 7:03:00. It was incredible, I couldnt believe the string Zee was pulling against Vinnie
I couldnt believe a Villager could be this aggresive

 

[Luco]

-EXTREME WARNING. THE POST BELOW CONTAINS MATERIAL YOU WILL PROBABLY DISAGREE WITH-

So I got bored and instead of waiting patiently for a more organized consensus on the characters, looked around the internet, added up the figures and made the following. Obviously cause it's come from such dark depths as the internet it's going to be hideously inaccurate in some places, and because I only used 10 samples it's not going to be very reliable, but this should give us at least a sort of idea of what the internet in general thinks of SSB4's balancing. (plsdon'tbanme)

NOTE: I used 10 samples for calculating this info. Selecting which samples to use was based on a mix of personal judgement and what I could find of professional opinions. Yeah, you probably won't agree with some of the things on this list, but it's only meant for analysis purposes.

Sheik 2.1 Rosalina 2.8 ZSS 3.1 Greninja 5.1
------------------------------
DHD 8.7 Yoshi 9.4 Sonic 10.1 Bowser 10.2 Robin 10.9 Lucario 12.1 Capt. Falcon 12.4 Little Mac 14.9 Diddy Kong 15
------------------------------
Fox 15.9 Bowser Jr. 16 Pacman 17.4 Peach 18 Villager 18.7 Mario 19.5 Marth 19.6 R.O.B. 19.8
------------------------------
=Metaknight 20.1 =Wario 20.1 Dedede 20.6 Shulk 22.1 Pit 22.2 Ness 22.3 Dark Pit 23.8 Pikachu 24.7 Toon Link 25
------------------------------
Lucina 25.9 Jigglypuff 26.9 Kirby 28.8 Link 30.2 DK 31.7 Dr. Mario 32 Samus 32.1 Falco 32.5
------------------------------
Palutena 33 G&W 33.5 WFT 34.7 Zelda 34.9 Megaman 35.8 Ganondorf 36.5
------------------------------
Ike 37.7 Luigi 38.5 Charizard 39
------------------------------
Olimar 42.7

So there's bound to be a few things on there that surprise you. There certainly are for me - I think Ganondorf is a considerable bit better than bottom 5th, while I'm also surprised that Toon Link turns out above standard Link. Mostly, though, I think this information will give us as analysts more ideas to debate/chew up and spit out again in a disgusting mess.

Though this is at the point where bringing up results from approximately a month ago may be somewhat moot, I believe Nakat's performance with Ness recently, gaining top positions in tournaments, warrants Ness a position in high tier of that list. A multitude of solid combos, options and the fact he doesn't get edge-guarded so easily give me the impression Ness is better than most of those in the tier above him and certainly those in his tier.

Actually I think quite a few people in that tier could move up. Possibly the pits and most likely pika.

I actually don't find villager to be that amazing, but people can correct me on him if they really feel his camping is broken.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Now Link can basically intense counter the following right here:

Do I even need to spell it out?

Lolno.

Flare Blitz rips straight through his projectiles + unlike the rest of the heavyweights you mentioned Zard has the speed and range to get in on Link with ease, so good luck trying to keep him out. In addition to that Link is one of the easiest characters in the game for Zard to gimp offstage with his Dair.

Zard has problematic matchups but Link is far from being anywhere near the top of that list.

 

[Radical Larry]

Lolno.

Flare Blitz rips straight through his projectiles + unlike the rest of the heavyweights you mentioned Zard has the speed and range to get in on Link with ease, so good luck trying to keep him out. In addition to that Link is one of the easiest characters in the game for Zard to gimp offstage with his Dair.

Zard has problematic matchups but Link is far from being anywhere near the top of that list.

Want me to prove you wrong on that in a simple match?
Quite literally, all that you said can be done in a simple Online Match.