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Pikachu is one of those charachters zss mains will have to adjust to i guess. I noticed when I fight pikachus, i tend to rely on down b mixups on the ground to respond to their spacing game. If i had a penny for every grab i wiffed against a pikachu :/
I dunno, if he still has the best throws in the game then I don't think he can be bad with Smash 4's mechanics.
Currently not feeling ZSS having air dominance in the match up, but I must fear up air still obviously, although the disjoint on his down air is quite large from what I gather, trading favourably with her pretty reliably [although I'm sure ZSS players will figure out where she can actually afford to go for a follow up hit (probably not often at all) rather than maintaining an advantageous position]. At early glance, ZSS kills better for sure. But Tipper fsmash on Pika is killing a lightweight like her at around 90% and Up Smash by around 110%, in terms of raw near instantaneous kill power, Pika comes out on top. ZSS Fsmash plainly not hitting pikachu is glorious. I find nearly any Shuffle input is capable of getting him out of Up-B, so her non-multi hit custom seems superior but I don't think she has any set ups for it.
I have not yet faced a single Bowser Jr. online that gave my Rosalina trouble, but that comes with the obvious caveats: For Glory is not representative, possible skill disparity, etc. etc. ad nauseum. But within those constraints I've been able to just sit back and force them to approach me since GPull negates the cannonball and Mechakoopa, and Luma Shot beats the kart special, whatever it's called. From there it's pretty manageable.
The main issue with the current Bowser Jr meta is that people are hugely mistaken about his moves. We think MechaKoopa is for stage control, when it isn't - it can be grabbed easily, and as the meta develops it will happen constantly and reliably for your opponents. Mechkoopa is an ITEM - you plant it to grab it, and if you DON'T grab it, then it's an approach-buddy. Similar to pikachu's bolt at times, Mario's fireballs, Megaman's sawblade, and Samus' missiles - you shoot these babies out and then follow them to force your opponent to shield your approach or roll/spotdodge.
All good points, although I discovered something interesting about the Mechakoopa: If Rosalina uses GPull on it, it floats over to her and keeps on walking, but now it's owned by her and will detonate if it runs into Bowser Jr. Obvious in hindsight but it still surprised me when it happened.The main issue with the current Bowser Jr meta is that people are hugely mistaken about his moves. We think MechaKoopa is for stage control, when it isn't - it can be grabbed easily, and as the meta develops it will happen constantly and reliably for your opponents. Mechkoopa is an ITEM - you plant it to grab it, and if you DON'T grab it, then it's an approach-buddy. Similar to pikachu's bolt at times, Mario's fireballs, Megaman's sawblade, and Samus' missiles - you shoot these babies out and then follow them to force your opponent to shield your approach or roll/spotdodge.
Too many Bowser Jrs plant a mechkoopa and shoot cannons as if it provides any actual pressure. It doesn't - these things are easy to deal with while being aggressive, never mind defensive. Cannons are good for punishing landings, but they are telegraphed and once people are more used to fighting Bowser Jrs, it won't be reliable anymore. Same goes for almost all current thought-to-be 'good' clown kart approaches.
Clown Kart approach-mix-ups are useless on grounded opponents as, inevitably, opponents will know to just shield and wait for you to land. You lose all of your options in the clown kart to deal with shields, much like Sonic when spindashing. However sonic has speed and surprise, which is when he can actually land spindash approaches on grounded opponents. Otherwise, he can't (as you can simply use shield to counter a lot of Sonic's more elementary from-neutral spindash options).
Clown Kart is better used as a mobility tool, extra jump, and aerial approach option (where enemies can't shield, only spotdodge). But his meta is currently in the 'clown kart mixups are our meta' stage, which may be a dead end when it comes to high-level play.
This is why I started the other thread here about Character subforum involvement - it's important we talk about these things and make them known.
Palutena is actually considerably less garbage than she initially seems. Almost certainly still low tier, but not quite the write-off many of us thought. Her air game is actually really good, especially Fair and Uair, and that USmash is great against opponents who try to approach her from the air.
I don't think she's garbage. I'll admit, it's difficult to get the hang of her but I've been into that territory a lot (Shulk and Rosy)
Zelda has better normals than Palutena though. Faster pokes that are safer on whiff and block that also have followup potential. Doesn't build damage from throws quite as fast, but she has better grab range and KO throws. Zelda's recovery and land trap options are also noticeably better than Palutena's. Palutena has considerable trouble KOing outside of edgeguard situations (keeping in mind, Zelda's edgeguarding is quite lethal in this game too), while Zelda in contrast with her Up-B and lingering Smashes is much better at covering landing options.
I dunno, I think I would say Zelda is a better character than Palutena. Her ground game is far better - ftilt does more damage, is faster, is safer on miss, and fails to lead into anything just as poorly
. Dtilt can be used a couple times for a quick ~8% damage, pops them up for some followup shenanigans at times, and again is far safer. Utilt - like before - is far safer, quicker, and has a better hitbox that actually has some horizontal range and more vertical height. Jab's kind of meh, but you can act out of it fast enough to pull off an ftilt/dash attack a lot of the time - and her dash attack is also quite a bit faster with a better hitbox and comparable damage. Doesn't have the "shield" property though ofc, props to Palu for that one.
That's precisely the point. Most arguments by default are going to consider default sets until we establish customs-allowed tournaments. This isn't a problem as long as the distinction is clear.
At this point you should probably assume they'll be on. Consider customs-on to be the default until customs-banned tournaments are established. Because guess what, customs-on tournaments are the norm now, at least for publicized tournaments like the ones on Smash Studios and Tourney Locator.
Assume, you said? Why are you even trying to argue this?
We aren't japanese. The NA scene so far is quite Custom friendly.
Whose the one making assumptions here? Both of us. The argument is all about what we should assume, and you think is this is a fallacy?
Some of her custom moves are better, but still not good enough to turn around her entire game, her sluggish speed and for the most part weak moves still remain as her biggest weaknesses. I feel like the developers really overestimated how much her range would benefit her honestly.
Why do we have to have official tier lists to begin with? Why can't we do what the FGC does and have players post their own tier lists while having a general consensus on who's stronger and who's not? Deciding Tiers don't directly impact the game. They're just a tradition we've kept but never needed.
They're both very slow as well. Everyone talks about how badly Zelda and Palutena counter Mega Man, but I don't really see it. I used to have issues with Zelda, but not anymore since you just wait for her to do something stupid and punish, which is way easier to do against her compared to the rest of the cast. Same story with Palutena. They make them defensive characters and strip them of their offense, but they end up wasting that defensive potential as well by giving their moves horrendous numbers of frames. As such, they can really only defend until they realize that they're not getting any hits in.
You can't really assume that a good Zelda player would do something stupid.
If palutena were to focus on mainly using her tilts and smashes i'd say she would be slow but for the most part she can be aggressive using Fair and her jab pressure. They counter megaman but its not like they invalidate him. If megaman mixes up his game he can pose and issue for both of them. Watch some of Aerolink's matches on Tourney Locator, to me he plays a pretty balanced palutena.
That I would agree with. To be honest I would trade range for some of palutena's smashes, except for up smash for a reduced recovery. I can deal with the tilts.
Zelda's biggest weakness isn't frame data. Her only two weaknesses are ground mobility and the lack of an aerial approach. If either of those didn't exist, I guarantee you Zelda would be a straight up overpowered character because her ground moves to be frank are REALLY REALLY GOOD. Like, competing with other top tier characters besides Little Mac good. And she can get back into neutral better than most characters besides like...Pikachu and Pac Man.
Super Speed alone is enough to turn around her entire game. It is easily one of the best moves in the game.
I think the opposite. As time passes I think the Koopalings will go up in the ranks. His Smashes are punishable, but that hardly matters when they have other kill options. Koopalings main way to kill will be though edge guarding, which they are very good at doing since they can go deep. Other then that Bair and Uair are pretty good kill moves as well. As for the Mecha Koopas, if you switch to the big one, 3rd Dspecial, you don't have to worry about catching up to one so you can pick it up as you can pick up the big one without even moving. I also believe most of their attacks are considered disjointed, someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, and have good range to them. They have a good Jab, good tilts, and good aerials, and can recover from deep giving them a solid on-stage and off-stage game.
I wasn't saying there had to be one, I was just making a point.
