Character Competitive Impressions

[ZombieBran]

She can't reliably land a killing blow as easily as many other top characters. That alone is enough to not put her at the first spot.

I don't know if she deserves top spot. I just think she's a more powerful character than Greninja.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Dr. Mario is the worst character in the game. His on-stage game is sort of fine (I mean he has ****ty range on everything but the moves have good frame data and knockback, and kill early.. and up-b OOS is pretty good), but his recovery is just tragic. I'm not sure what they expected anyone to do with that character.

 

[Terotrous]

I think Dr. Mario is the worst character in the game. His on-stage game is sort of fine (I mean he has ****ty range on everything but the moves have good frame data and knockback, and kill early.. and up-b OOS is pretty good), but his recovery is just tragic. I'm not sure what they expected anyone to do with that character.

I think the whole reason they put Dr Mario in the game is to legitimize FLUDD as a move.

"See, look, we gave you Mario Tornado back and it's crap! Stop complaining about this move!"

 

[ChikoLad]

Funny thing is, I think FLUDD is fine on it's own in this game.

As soon as I used it in the demo, I did not miss Mario Tornado as his Down Special (move looks cool but they made it Mario's Down Air anyway, so the aesthetic appeal of the move still exists in Mario anyway).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Much better projectile
Longer and more reliable combos
Superior recovery
Faster grab

1.) Sheiks projectile isn't "much better" at all. Needles are annoying but they don't deal as much damage as water shuryken does and they don't hurt shields as much either. Water Shuryken can actually kill but most of all it creates openings for Greninja that needles can't. I'd say neither is better than the other. Sheik's needles are a better defensive tool but Greninja's projectile is a better offensive move.

2.) Have you even seen Greninjas combos? Uthrow / Usmash / Uair shenanigans are real and definitely as reliable as any of Sheik's combos. Sheik's combos being "longer" is kind of worthless when Greninja's combos are more damaging and have much more dangerous finishers. The length of a combo means nothing compared to damage and KO power.

3.) Greninja's recovery is still adequate and his edgeguarding is powerful as well. While Sheik definitely has a better recovery she doesn't really gain anything from it that Greninja can't do. It's an advantage on paper that she can't do anything with, neither directly against Greninja itself, nor in any other matchup.

4.) By what? 2 frames? Greninja gets more grabs than Sheik does and whiffing grab gets Sheik punished harder. Greninja has the better grab.

 

[Jabejazz]

Fun thing to note is that Sheik's needles do not knock gordos back at Dedede due to their low individual damage..

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I think Dr. Mario is the worst character in the game. His on-stage game is sort of fine (I mean he has ****ty range on everything but the moves have good frame data and knockback, and kill early.. and up-b OOS is pretty good), but his recovery is just tragic. I'm not sure what they expected anyone to do with that character.

I'd say Doc is at least in the bottom five, but not the worst. While his recovery is unbelievably poor, he racks up damage surprisingly quickly and has the same tools as Mario minus a spike to kill (and the up-B's added power). His aerials are very strong and quick, his grab game is good (d-throw combos into uair then bair at low %s) and customs do help him a reasonable amount in terms of recovery. Olimar, on the other hand, can't be saved with custom specials when the root of his problem is in his base mechanics.

 

[Z'zgashi]

To be fair, none of the characters in this game feel like a #1 character to me lol.

Oh and Sheik > Yoshi easily, character is good, but not THAT good. He's not a top tier, he still lacks solid kill confirms and loses to anything with a good spacing game and decent speed (Sheik, ZSS, Greninja, and Lucario to name a few).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

From my experience of playing against Slice Yoshi's ability to land KOs has been tremendously improved. Uair is easier to land than ever and silly things like jab -> usmash kinda work.

 

[Scala]

What do you guys think are the worst matchups for Sheik, ZSS, and Greninja?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's recovery will get exponentially better once people can actually ****ing mash B properly for Tornado, or even customize controls to have B and Y both be special buttons for optimal tornado mashing. Not saying his recovery will become amazing but the 3DS is holding him back FIERCE.

Also worst in the game? LOL worse than GANON?!

 

[ZombieBran]

Is there anyone here who thinks Ganondorf may NOT be the worst character again?

 

[The Real Gamer]

I still think Olimar is the worst.

 

[ChikoLad]

Is there anyone here who thinks Ganondorf may NOT be the worst character again?

I don't even think he's close to worst.

Not below mid-tier, for sure.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think he's down there, maybe not? He's certainly not out of bottom 5 for me, at all. A lot of his actual flaws are still there and he's certainly a lot more playable but at a baseline level he's still pretty bad.

Then you give him customs...

I think calling Doc the worst in the game is pretty inaccurate though. He has a lot of Mario's tools fundamentally and while he is CERTAINLY not as good as Mario, worst in the game? That's a really big stretch.

 

[Terotrous]

1) Sheiks projectile isn't "much better" at all. Needles are annoying but they don't deal as much damage as water shuryken does and they don't hurt shields as much either. Water Shuryken can actually kill but most of all it creates openings for Greninja that needles can't. I'd say neither is better than the other. Sheik's needles are a better defensive tool but Greninja's projectile is a better offensive move.

I might agree if Greninja could store a Water Shuriken for later use, but he can't. Once he begins charging it, he's committed to the move, he can't even cancel with shield. The fact that Sheik can store needles and cancel the charge gives them more overall utility.

2.) Have you even seen Greninjas combos? Uthrow / Usmash / Uair shenanigans are real and definitely as reliable as any of Sheik's combos. Sheik's combos being "longer" is kind of worthless when Greninja's combos are more damaging and have much more dangerous finishers. The length of a combo means nothing compared to damage and KO power.

What I mean about "reliability" is that Sheik has combos at basically every percent, which much of the cast doesn't. Her combos are certainly adequately damaging, a wall of pain combo to bouncing fish can kill around 100%, and Uair kills reliably at more standard kill percentages. Greninja's combos are certainly also decent, but I haven't seen anyone who can carry people all the way across the stage like Sheik can.

3.) Greninja's recovery is still adequate and his edgeguarding is powerful as well. While Sheik definitely has a better recovery she doesn't really gain anything from it that Greninja can't do. It's an advantage on paper that she can't do anything with, neither directly against Greninja itself, nor in any other matchup.

More recovery always helps. If Greninja loses his double jump he can definitely be gimped (and needles are one of the best jump stealers in the game), whereas Sheik has another jump available in down B. Down B is also very strong for recovering on stage since it hits hard and is pretty safe, Greninja lacks a comparable mixup against people who attempt to grab ledge after he does to force him off.

4.) By what? 2 frames? Greninja gets more grabs than Sheik does and whiffing grab gets Sheik punished harder. Greninja has the better grab.

Even 2 frames is pretty relevant, it makes dodging the grab easier. Also, in absense of some frame data suggesting that Greninja's grab recovers faster than most (which it doesn't seem to), they're both equally punishable on a whiffed grab.

 

[ZombieBran]

I think Luigi is a serious contender for worst. No range, slippery, not very good at KOing, sluggish in the air.

At least with the other characters typically touted as bottom tier you can score a good hit and kill them even though you have 150% and they have 80%.

 

[Terotrous]

Oh and Sheik > Yoshi easily, character is good, but not THAT good. He's not a top tier, he still lacks solid kill confirms and loses to anything with a good spacing game and decent speed (Sheik, ZSS, Greninja, and Lucario to name a few).

IMO, Yoshi vs Greninja is 5-5. Yoshi wins the range game, since short hop eggs leave him safe against water shurikens, that forces Greninja to approach where they are generally fairly even in terms of normals. Greninja has better combos than Yoshi, but Yoshi kills earlier, so it tends to even out. Yoshi can also armor through dair and punish, removing one of Greninja's better options.

IMO, Yoshi's most negative matchups are Little Mac, Sheik, and Bowser. I'd place Little Mac as a 7-3, and the other two are probably 6-4. I think he's probably no worse than 5.5-4.5 vs the rest of the cast. That is probably good enough for high tier overall, he's just very well-rounded and solid this time around.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Luigi is definitely bad but I'm not sure how bad yet. His meteor connects wayyy easier now (I think you can overlap hitboxes and still land it) but his air speed is a definite problem. But then his DThrow with the set knockback....from what I played he's low tier for sure, bottom tier MAYBE but I wanna wait on it a little to say that. He is potentially a contender though.

It's honestly really hard to think of a WORST when you realize that even those you take for granted have some form of options, eugh!

 

[Jabejazz]

I don't think Ganondorf is that terrible. He was pretty much unchanged from Brawl, but the overall changes the game received helped him step up, notably the nerf to projectiles.

And well, with Customs... his down specials? Gawd dayum.

 

[ChikoLad]

Not only that, but the Super Armour on Warlock Punch is really good, and since it can turn around, he could even get people who try to dodge it and punish him with attacks, that simply won't interrupt him.

And overall, I've faced some players who definitely know what they are doing with him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I also feel like it's important to mention that Doc has to be played quite differently than Mario and is likely better for MUs where your enemy has to approach you (you can usually force one but in a MU chart this would be statistically determined). Doc gets more reward for his longest ranged stuff, primarily Bair, and his short hop is much better for spacing it on-stage. OoS game is also real as hell that Up+B is scary. Pills are bigger and bounce better, they're probably good on Battlefield for setting up awkward approaches perhaps? I have no idea, just speculation on this one.

I do think he's low tier, for sure. I wouldn't put him lower than low, it'd be a stretch to put him in mid or bottom though.

In relation to Ganon, armor on Warlock Punch helps with hard reads but it doesn't save him from grabs or...anything else, really. The nerf to projectiles is probably one of Ganon's biggest benefits, plus the damn ledgesteal system where Ganon can snag a free Bair if he does it right and that **** kills mad early from the ledge cause Ganon stronk. Side-B can vortex people if you make good reads on their tech or followups, pivot Ftilt is great. Ganon's probably still bottom of low/fringing on bottom but he's definitely improved. Oh yeah he has a DACUS that takes him 1/3 of FD and with how little endlag his USmash has, yeah, that's a big addition for Ganon once WiiU version drops.

 

[Jabejazz]

Not only that, but the Super Armour on Warlock Punch is really good, and since it can turn around, he could even get people who try to dodge it and punish him with attacks, that simply won't interrupt him.

And overall, I've faced some players who definitely know what they are doing with him.

Yeah, that's gimmicky at best. I mean, yeah it's obviously better than not having super armor. But I doubt we'll see a lot of warlock punches in play regardless.

 

[ChikoLad]

In relation to Ganon, armor on Warlock Punch helps with hard reads but it doesn't save him from grabs or...anything else, really.

You can't grab in the air game though (with the exception of certain characters and their specials, such as Ganondorf's own Side B). So the Super Armour on the move helps a ton for that, punishing people who attempt close range pressure or follow-ups in the air.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's too slow to stop a followup unless you make an incredibly good guess. This is just my opinion but the armor's good but you have to make an incredibly hard read and hope their reaction is bad. It'll probably only work once in a set if that.

 

[Deathcarter]

I'm curious as to why Diddy & Yoshi aren't generally considered to be as good as Sheik, Greninja, Rosalina, and ZSS?

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I'm curious as to why Diddy & Yoshi aren't generally considered to be as good as Sheik, Greninja, Rosalina, and ZSS?

I'd say they are pretty close, but it's the little setbacks. Diddy's vertical recovery isn't as strong as the above and has less KO power than Shiek. Greninja and ZSS, while Yoshi's flutter kick getting interrupted too far away from the stage is his end, and his shield is paper-thin.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm curious as to why Diddy & Yoshi aren't generally considered to be as good as Sheik, Greninja, Rosalina, and ZSS?

I disagree that ZSS or Greninja is superior to Yoshi or Diddy. All four of them are super solid characters who have loads of good matchups, but they don't just completely dominate the game the way Rosalina, Sheik, and IMO Little Mac do. Each of those three characters has tools that are just completely beyond what any other character has. Sheik is flat out amazing at everything, regardless of what type of character you are, she plays your game better than you do. Rosalina has ridiculously safe pressure thanks to Luma and can counter you even if you land a hit. Little Mac is stupidly strong, fast, and safe, and has tons of armor, and he gets to attempt a 1-hit kill move at least 3 times per match that turns around the entire game if it ever lands. Nothing those other characters have is really quite this insane.

 

[Jabejazz]

I'm curious as to why Diddy & Yoshi aren't generally considered to be as good as Sheik, Greninja, Rosalina, and ZSS?

Because Diddy is arguably better.

 

[mimgrim]

Little Mac is a little weird. I think on FD he is the best character in the game without a single losing MU. However on other stages his weaknesses become much more apparent. He can swat through many projectiles with Ftilt and Jab, has plenty of anti-air options, can wait for the opponent to come down to the ground since there are no platforms. However when platforms get thrown in... weeeeell, it isn't good. If a player is camping on the top platform on BF there is little he will be able to do because his air game sucks for apporaching and he becomes a lot less scary and is probably in the upper-mis to high sections of the cast.

Mac seems best to have as a pocket character then to have as a main.

 

[Terotrous]

Little Mac is a little weird. I think on FD he is the best character in the game without a single losing MU. However on other stages his weaknesses become much more apparent. He can swat through many projectiles with Ftilt and Jab, has plenty of anti-air options, can wait for the opponent to come down to the ground since there are no platforms.

You'd think so, but Bwett's win rate really doesn't seem to be much worse on Battlefield than on FD. I also think it's clear that Battlefield is by far the worst stage for Mac (due to the height of the center platform), on Yoshis or Prism Tower he doesn't have nearly as much of an issue. In this case, any Mac player could just ban Battlefield every time and not have to deal with this weakness at all.


I also think it's possible that Sheik might beat Little Mac on FD. Sheik is just that good.

 

[Thinkaman]

Maybe I'm weird, but I feel arguing about balance/tiers without custom moves might as well be arguing "who is the best if there were no grabs?"

Sure, there's For Glory mode, but that shouldn't be a factor any more than Home Run Contest.

 

[Terotrous]

Maybe I'm weird, but I feel arguing about balance/tiers without custom moves might as well be arguing "who is the best if there were no grabs?"

Blame Sakurai for allowing them to be turned off.

 

[Jabejazz]

Sure, there's For Glory mode, but that shouldn't be a factor any more than Home Run Contest.

Come again?

 

[Jigglymaster]

Come again?

I think he's trying to imply that because For Glory doesn't have custom moves, making a tier list based off of that mode is just as pointless as making a Tier list for Home Run Contest or Smash Run. Im not saying I'm agreeing with him or anything but I'm just simply trying to make sense of what he said.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Mac is overrated by a lot of people simply because of For Glory's FD spam, plus the fact that so many of his moves are hard to punish on reaction thanks to lag online.

Take him to Battlefield and watch him struggle.

 

[Thinkaman]

You can debate balance and make a tier list for For Glory just the same as you can make a tier list for Home Run Contest or Smash Run or Multi-Man Melee.

But presumably that isn't what we are discussing here. We're talking about high-level tournament 1v1 and 2v2 play, with all the rules that generally apply.

 

[Terotrous]

You can debate balance and make a tier list for For Glory just the same as you can make a tier list for Home Run Contest or Smash Run or Multi-Man Melee.

But presumably that isn't what we are discussing here. We're talking about high-level tournament 1v1 and 2v2 play, with all the rules that generally apply.

So far though a lot of tournaments have had customs off.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Maybe I'm weird, but I feel arguing about balance/tiers without custom moves might as well be arguing "who is the best if there were no grabs?"

Sure, there's For Glory mode, but that shouldn't be a factor any more than Home Run Contest.

I disagree with this comparison. The difference is that the game doesn't give you the option to enable or disable grabs: they are always a part of the game. On the other hand, you have the option to play with or without custom moves, just like the game gives you the choice to play with or without items: are we going to count items in now when discussing balance/tiers?

I'm not implying that customs introduce the same problems as items do in a competitive environment, but simply pointing out that customs - like items - are an option that the game gives players to play with, whereas grabs are an integral part of it.

In regards to discussing them, I don't see the problem with having one tier list of each: one tier list for the default specials, and one that takes custom specials into account. We can very well take both the standard metagame and the custom metagame into account, and even separate them as different tournament formats: there seems to be interest in both having them on and not having them, as well as reasonable arguments from both sides pertaining to why they should be allowed or not. I personally don't see the problem with discussing both, nor do I see a problem with them co-existing as separate formats / meta-games.

I personally think there should be two metagame threads in the board: one that takes customs into account and one that does not. But that's just my preference: I'm ok with having them both discussed here too.

On another note, I'm sure that a tier list exists for Home Run Contest too: there are clearly better characters to use to get the maximum possible distance. Whether anyone cares about it or not is a different issue, but one could still be made.

 

[ChikoLad]

In relation to Little Mac, I think he is overrated even on FD, but he's still problematic in a way that he rewards bad play in some ways. He's fun to fight in the right hands though, good Little Mac players are a good time.

There is a friend of a friend of mine who mains Little Mac, and all three of us played together for a good while last night, mostly on FD. We did the same a while ago, on the game's first weekend, and the Little Mac player dominated. However, fast forward to last night, and me and my Rosalina actually dominated. I honestly had a little bit more trouble against his Mario.

Still a really good player though. I just think Little Mac VS Rosalina is in Rosalina's favour. However, Little Mac will thrash a noob Rosalina, since the match-up is only in Rosalina's favour because you can exploit certain things about Mac, something lesser players won't do.

However, this player didn't know about Little Mac's gimping trick. I did tell him about it though after we were done, so we'll see how things go in the future. Though it won't really effect Rosalina so much, since she can escape it...