Character Competitive Impressions

[Deathcarter]

I disagree with this comparison. The difference is that the game doesn't give you the option to enable or disable grabs: they are always a part of the game. On the other hand, you have the option to play with or without custom moves, just like the game gives you the choice to play with or without items: are we going to count items in now when discussing balance/tiers?

I'm not implying that customs introduce the same problems as items do in a competitive environment, but simply pointing out that customs - like items - are an option that the game gives players to play with, whereas grabs are an integral part of it.

In regards to discussing them, I don't see the problem with having one tier list of each: one tier list for the default specials, and one that takes custom specials into account. We can very well take both the standard metagame and the custom metagame into account, and even separate them as different tournament formats: there seems to be interest in both having them on and not having them, as well as reasonable arguments from both sides pertaining to why they should be allowed or not. I personally don't see the problem with discussing both, nor do I see a problem with them co-existing as separate formats / meta-games.

I personally think there should be two metagame threads in the board: one that takes customs into account and one that does not. But that's just my preference: I'm ok with having them both discussed here too.

On another note, I'm sure that a tier list exists for Home Run Contest too: there are clearly better characters to use to get the maximum possible distance. Whether anyone cares about it or not is a different issue, but one could still be made.

We'll probably just have one tier list based on the official ruleset the Smash Back Room comes up with. If customs are deemed legal in the official ruleset then they'll be considered a de facto part of the metagame and factored in the official tier list regardless of the presence of no custom tournaments.

 

[mimgrim]

And just how many of his opponents were willing to to play campy on the top platform against him? Prism is both good and bad for Little Mac. During the first, second, and 5th transitions it is basically like he is on FD. 3rd and 4th transitions are horrible for him and will probably bring the match to a stand still since the opponent will want to stays on the platforms and Mac will be unable to approach from there. But in general, it is a decent stage for him. Yoshi's Island I'm still not convinced about quite yet. Then there are things like Arena Ferox, the default is perfect for Mac but all the transofrmations hurt him a lot. If Tortimer Island becomes legal I could see that being a pretty good stage for him, and if it does become legal I could then see Mac becoming a better character to main. Tomadichi Life would be pretty bad for him. Reset Bomb would be horrible for him. At best his is decent on a stage with platforms, more often he will be bad, or just plain horrible, on them.

 

[Terotrous]

And just how many of his opponents were willing to to play campy on the top platform against him?

At least a few tried it, but the problem is no one can really damage him from up there, either. Something like PK thunder could work, but that's just begging for an Up B, his grounded up B will hit the platform from the ground. Unless you can get a lead, you've got to go fight him eventually.

And really, once stage striking is in place he should clearly just ban this stage. I see no reason for him not to ban it every time.

Prism is both good and bad for Little Mac. During the first, second, and 5th transitions it is basically like he is on FD. 3rd and 4th transitions are horrible for him and will probably bring the match to a stand still since the opponent will want to stays on the platforms and Mac will be unable to approach from there.

Yeah, that's the basic gist of it. Little Mac can just wait out the bad transformations, so it's not too bad.

Then there are things like Arena Ferox, the default is perfect for Mac but all the transofrmations hurt him a lot.

He can wait this one out too. Also, some of the transformations have platforms he can break, which could potentially force you to come down and fight him.

If Tortimer Island becomes legal I could see that being a pretty good stage for him, and if it does become legal I could then see Mac becoming a better character to main.

I don't think it will, too much disruption.

Tomadichi Life would be pretty bad for him.

I wonder. Of course, there's multiple layers, but each one is quite flat, as long as he can get to the same layer as the opponent he can fight, and he's a fast-faller so he can switch between the layers pretty quick. This stage actually also helps his recovery to some extent, since the multiple layers give him more options for recovering on stage vs at the ledge. While I don't think this would be his best stage by any means, I think it's a lot better for him than Battlefield.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

However, this player didn't know about Little Mac's gimping trick. I did tell him about it though after we were done, so we'll see how things go in the future. Though it won't really effect Rosalina so much, since she can escape it...

Could you elaborate on his gimping trick?

Also, I've been getting a lot of wins against my friends with Bowser. What are your impressions on him in this game?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not only that, but the Super Armour on Warlock Punch is really good, and since it can turn around, he could even get people who try to dodge it and punish him with attacks, that simply won't interrupt him.

And overall, I've faced some players who definitely know what they are doing with him.

The WP armor isn't really reliable. It seems to be knockback based like Bowser's persistent Super Armor.

Ganondorf is most definitely a bottom 5 character...well...until it's proven DACUS actually gives him a scary approach (disjointed, safe on block, does 23 damage on hit). The problem with Ganondorf is none of his moves are good on shield except at really really specific spacing, and his standing grab range is one of the worst in the game. So ultimately, his neutral game is just really unreliable and bad overall.

Don't get me wrong, Ganondorf is much better in this game where everyone else does like 7% a hit, can't edgehog him for free, and when nobody chaingrabs him to death. It's just that by design, he's still highly exploitable by everyone and generally speaking has mostly disadvantageous matchups.

Worst 5 characters in the game on default settings imo are Ganondorf, Mario, Luigi, Doc, Olimar.

 

[RWB]

Could you elaborate on his gimping trick?

Also, I've been getting a lot of wins against my friends with Bowser. What are your impressions on him in this game?

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUUWhqBJfvkZogLBxFttN4_g

Watch the Gimp Master videos.

Mac can essentially catch a character in a series of Nairs and carry them to the bottom of the screen- he can even recover in a lot of case by ending it with a footstool.

 

[ChikoLad]

Could you elaborate on his gimping trick?

Also, I've been getting a lot of wins against my friends with Bowser. What are your impressions on him in this game?

I'm no Little Mac main so I've never done it, but from what I've seen you just use his N-air while above an opponent, and then repeatedly use it even after the first hit. Carries people down to a point where they may not be able recover depending on how many jumps they used or how good their recovery abilities in general are:

As for Bowser, I like him and in the future I may even consider making him at least a secondary, since as far as heavyweights go, he's a really good one. A friend of mine who I even played online with in Brawl has always mained him, and he's really good with him. However, he does have his downsides, and, again, Rosalina doesn't really have much trouble. While Bowser can kill Rosalina early if he gets a good hit in, it's difficult for him to do so, and because Bowser is so big, he's really easy to hit with stuff like Luma Shot, and overall, I also find him easy to juggle with Rosalina. Not to mention that Rosalina's U-Tilt and U-Air can deny the Bowser Bomb without Rosalina taking a hit.

 

[popsofctown]

I'm not sure Bowser Bomb is supposed to be part of a competitive bowser playstyle.

 

[DanGR]

Like any move that moves you quickly across the stage, it's safe on being dodged if you can make it completely to the other side and suffer your landing lag in silence (in this case, vertically across the stage). Typically you might use his down-b when characters chase bowser really high in the air, but even then it's an edge case/punishment that shouldn't really happen...

 

[ChikoLad]

Bowser Bomb can also punish people who are shielding excessively, since it can break shields very easily.

Still, I think it's a useful asset that Rosalina can directly counter it with an attack (a KO move at that) without it having to be a trade, due to the disjointed hit boxes she has.

 

[DavemanCozy]

You can also use Down-B with Bowser when you're close to the ledge to fall fast and grab it. You can do this both when you're offstage or on-stage. You're basically covering a good amount of space while grabbing the ledge safely to either make it back onstage or get someone who's recovering (stealing the ledge or hitting them on their way back).

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

mewtwo SSS tier confirmed

 

[Z'zgashi]

IMO, Yoshi's most negative matchups are Little Mac, Sheik, and Bowser. I'd place Little Mac as a 7-3, and the other two are probably 6-4. I think he's probably no worse than 5.5-4.5 vs the rest of the cast. That is probably good enough for high tier overall, he's just very well-rounded and solid this time around.

>Yoshi losing to Little Mac.

Dude.... no lol. Egg Lay bodies Mac and Yoshi has ridiculous landing mixup options, then, when Yoshi is on the ground, he has the range on his titls, jab, grab, etc, to easily keep Mac out. Not to mention one hit Yoshi can easily convert to putting Mac offstage, and Yoshi has more than enough options to ledge guard Mac. All Yoshi has to to is play the mid range air game and mix up landings as needed, then when he gets a single hit, carry that advantage to more hits for more strings.

ALSO, Yoshi losing to Bowser is laughable, and this is coming from someone who mains Yoshi and Bowser. I'd actually argue Yoshi to be one of Bowser's hardest match ups in the game, Yoshi outranges AND outspeeds Bowser, Yoshi builds damage on Bowser easily, and Bowser is one of the few characters where kill confirms arent hard to get on as Yoshi.

Yoshi most definitely loses to Greninja, one of Yoshi's biggest strengths is mobility and being able to land in creative and safe ways to reset to neutral. Add in Yoshi's great range, insane mobility, a crazy air grab, and shield mix ups, and Yoshi is a great character at playing from neutral, hence the reason he's good in this game. Problem with Greninja, is Gren can punish Yoshi's landings well, he has a better neutral (at least in this match up due to a better ground speed, shuriken, and crazy safe short hops aerials), and Greninja is hard to lock down for Yoshi to get strings and kills on. Sheik is similar, but not as bad; she makes it even harder for Yoshi to land/reset than Gren, but she isnt as oppressive offensively as Gren and is easier to string and get kill confirms on.

 

[Yokoblue]

mewtwo SSS tier confirmed

WIth the Aura tech that Lucario has, I don't think Mewtwo will be any good unless he has it as well

On the subject of Yoshi,

I main him and one of the thing that I think make Sheik vs Yoshi 60-40 is that Sheik and camp him really well. Needle - run - needle is a really good way to deal with yoshi. Maybe it's only me but even when I try to play the midrange game by SH Egg and mixup with dair fair and nair, I can't seem to approach her enough. She dodge and keep needling. She can also dodge/shield grab easily...

 

[Z'zgashi]

You do realize that Mewtwo isnt going to be a Lucario clone and that other characters are good without Aura right?

 

[Yokoblue]

You do realize that Mewtwo isnt going to be a Lucario clone and that other characters are good without Aura right?

How can you say Mewtwo won't be a Lucario clone ? Lucario was basically a semi-clone of old mewtwo, I don't see why it wouldn't still be the case. if he's a semi-clone, Lucario game depends a lot on aura and rage mechanics. Try to kill with low percents Lucario. He's still a good character but he wouldn't be top or high tier without Aura

 

[Z'zgashi]

They arent even close to the same, only similar thing is they both have a Samus neutral b.

 

[Smog Frog]

the only thing that lucario and mewtwo had in common were neutral b

thats it

 

[Yokoblue]

the only thing that lucario and mewtwo had in common were neutral b

thats it

My bad then. I always thought they had the kinda same moveset/idea of a character. I haven't seen a Mewtwo for a while since I don't play melee. Sry for my ignorance.

 

[Shaya]

Although I'm completely pro-custom moves and will likely throw a massive fit if something were to happen to them (I'm in the boat that I'd rather ban individual ones that the entirety of them, straight up), I still practise competently with people without customs, just in case. In Marth's scenario it really is generally significantly harder against every good character without dash breaker, but like, still doable, basically another one of my "weighted clothing" things.


Pikachu doesn't have kill set ups? I don't know, Forward Air fast fallen combos at every percent. It's Smash 64 baby, you get that Up Smash / Grab / Up Tilt.
His off stage game is potent, and his forward and down tilt were heavily buffed IMO, allowing pika to out-footsie most of the cast and easily knock them into corners. Up Tilt always combos into something, and with a gamecube controller on my side, I'll be making that even more reliable.
Forward Smash having sweetspot on the tipper, looks a little faster than Brawl and is completely disjoint (definitely outspaces the swordsman of the game and I think Dedede's ftilt at least as well). Having a potent spacing tool like that is kinda scary. Thunder jolts may not be hitconfirm kill moves without customs, but I would say you could get up smashes out of them with the right scenarios, at the very least Dash attack is pretty feasible to combo thunder jolt out of (and does eventually kill).

And I really can't overstate how fast this ****** actually is though. His mobility specifics flow together almost perfectly, better than just about any character I've dabbled with (moreso than Diddy and ZSS). I really can jump hoops around so much of the cast without commitment, all of his aerials seem to have proper auto cancels (down air and back air definitely do shortly after hitbox ends; this is pretty significant to shield pressure). Approaching him is a massive chore, and so is hitting him, meanwhile he has a slew of easy 2-3 frame hitconfirms all the frikken time.

I'm pretty convinced Pikachu will be having advantages on:
I'm still not certain on but I feel like Pika's small size and speed kinda just... runs through Luma and is just too small for Rosalina to actually hit with anything and can find himself mostly safe on her shield. At the very least, Pika outcamps , and I feel like when you take away Pika's chain grabs on Sheik, but also take away Sheik's ftilt chains on pika, Pika comes out in front still.
Look hard on paper, but at least in Bowser's case I only see it getting better for Pika.
With Ice Climbers gone, and gimped, three of the harder Pika match ups are no longer an issue. was hard in Brawl primarily because of two bananas, with Diddy's camp shifted backwards a few pegs, I see more potential for Pika doing well even with diddy's other buffs.
may still pose threats, but I no longer feel confident in saying Marth beats Pikachu when the new clank mechanics of the game are really ****ty for dealing with projectiles.

 

[Terotrous]

>Yoshi losing to Little Mac.

Dude.... no lol. Egg Lay bodies Mac and Yoshi has ridiculous landing mixup options, then, when Yoshi is on the ground, he has the range on his titls, jab, grab, etc, to easily keep Mac out. Not to mention one hit Yoshi can easily convert to putting Mac offstage, and Yoshi has more than enough options to ledge guard Mac. All Yoshi has to to is play the mid range air game and mix up landings as needed, then when he gets a single hit, carry that advantage to more hits for more strings.

Uhh, this is jokes. I'm becoming skeptical that you have ever even played this match, or maybe Yoshi in general. The notion that you can keep Mac out with footsies (as any character, let alone Yoshi) shows that you really have no idea what the character is capable of.

Virtually all of Yoshi's kill potential is vertical. UpSmash, UpAir, and Down B are all vertical kill moves, and his combo moves send the opponent vertically, as well. Little Mac is a fast faller, so he dies off the top extremely late, generally living 30-40% longer than most other characters. Mac's footsies on the ground are much better than Yoshi's - Mac's Ftilt outranges Yoshi's FTilt and DTilt, is super fast and strong, and is safe on block. His Smashes are all fast, strong, and have armor. Even his jab does 21% damage. Oh, and he has a 1 hit KO that he can combo off a jab or dtilt. Long story short, Yoshi will not win the damage race, and if you let Mac live to 150%+, you will not win, period. All other characters rely on gimping Mac, but Yoshi's options for getting Mac offstage are generally pretty bad. His only moves with any significant horizontal knockback are FSmash, DSmash, and Bair. The Smash attacks both have startup and are very close range attacks, putting you at risk of Mac's powerful tilts or armored smashes or a counter. Bair is not very effective against grounded characters, and Mac is almost never in the air. Yoshi's forward and back throws have negligible knockback and even at 120% do not send Mac far enough to make gimping Mac feasible. Mac can also low profile, which render Eggs nearly useless in this matchup. Yoshi's only real hope is to somehow Egg Lay Mac off the edge, which is pretty gimmicky and it still won't kill until like 70%.

ALSO, Yoshi losing to Bowser is laughable, and this is coming from someone who mains Yoshi and Bowser. I'd actually argue Yoshi to be one of Bowser's hardest match ups in the game, Yoshi outranges AND outspeeds Bowser, Yoshi builds damage on Bowser easily, and Bowser is one of the few characters where kill confirms arent hard to get on as Yoshi.

Yoshi's faster than Bowser, but he definitely doesn't have the range advantage, Bowser's FTilt and Jab both have great range, and his Dash Attack is generally comparable to Yoshi's. Yoshi can usually outpace him in damage, but Bowser is so ludicrously heavy that he can afford to be down 30-50%, and he kills earlier than Yoshi, too. One of the biggest issues is that Yoshi has to be very careful chasing Bowser to the air because of Bowser's Down B, which will break the armor on Yoshi's double jump (so no trying to armor through it like you can with Greninja's Dair).

 

[Z'zgashi]

I'm becoming skeptical that you have ever even played this match, or maybe Yoshi in general.

Aaaaaaaaand Im done. Lmfao.

 

[Terotrous]

Aaaaaaaaand Im done. Lmfao.

You're welcome to prove me wrong by posting a video of you bodying a notable Little Mac player if you've got it.

Otherwise, you'll have to post about the matchup in some way that at least vaguely corresponds to the capabilities of the two characters for me to believe you've played it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well there's literally no footage of the match up besides this like week one (or two) tournament footage where the match up isnt played correctly from either side (spoiler, Yoshi wins): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg3VkhdZxGo

And I dont think Yoshi wrecks Mac all in all, its probably only like a 6-4 or so in Yoshi's favor honestly.

 

[Conda]

You're welcome to prove me wrong by posting a video of you bodying a notable Little Mac player if you've got it.

Otherwise, you'll have to post about the matchup in some way that at least vaguely corresponds to the capabilities of the two characters for me to believe you've played it.

You guys are supposed to be able to share current impressions. This is not a 'prove it!' thread, this is just an experience-sharing one. If you doubt someone's impressions thus far are true, then let them know and let that be it.

 

[Terotrous]

Well there's literally no footage of the match up besides this like week one (or two) tournament footage where the match up isnt played correctly from either side (spoiler, Yoshi wins): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg3VkhdZxGo

And I dont think Yoshi wrecks Mac all in all, its probably only like a 6-4 or so in Yoshi's favor honestly.

Notice that in that vid Yoshi was not able to keep Mac out in any way whatsoever.

Yoshi may have some setups vs Little Mac, like Neutral B to Nair (which does get you a little horizontal knockback), but it's certainly nowhere near as easy as just using Tilts and such to poke him out. Little Mac's ground game is incredibly strong.

You guys are supposed to be able to share current impressions. This is not a 'prove it!' thread, this is just an experience-sharing one. If you doubt someone's impressions thus far are true, then let them know and let that be it.

Fair enough. This really belongs on the Yoshi board, though what was posted differs greatly from how most people there recommend handling that matchup.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Notice how in that vid Yoshi used Egg Lay pretty much never and also tried to fight Mac on the ground, both no no's in the match up.

The point isn't who wins the ground game, Mac does, im not arguing that, but the ground game isnt all that matters, and even then, Yoshi can hold his own on the ground regardless. Once Mac gets hit by ANYTHING though, match up turns into a rock paper scissors where if there's a tie, Yoshi wins, then on top of that, Mac dies WAY earlier, not even counting the gimp potential, and Mac has no solid ways to kill Yoshi, notice how Yoshi was living to like 160% or higher basically every stock.

Yoshi just has to play it slow and force Mac to play his game and not go ground to ground.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Although I'm completely pro-custom moves and will likely throw a massive fit if something were to happen to them (I'm in the boat that I'd rather ban individual ones that the entirety of them, straight up), I still practise competently with people without customs, just in case. In Marth's scenario it really is generally significantly harder against every good character without dash breaker, but like, still doable, basically another one of my "weighted clothing" things.


Pikachu doesn't have kill set ups? I don't know, Forward Air fast fallen combos at every percent. It's Smash 64 baby, you get that Up Smash / Grab / Up Tilt.
His off stage game is potent, and his forward and down tilt were heavily buffed IMO, allowing pika to out-footsie most of the cast and easily knock them into corners. Up Tilt always combos into something, and with a gamecube controller on my side, I'll be making that even more reliable.
Forward Smash having sweetspot on the tipper, looks a little faster than Brawl and is completely disjoint (definitely outspaces the swordsman of the game and I think Dedede's ftilt at least as well). Having a potent spacing tool like that is kinda scary. Thunder jolts may not be hitconfirm kill moves without customs, but I would say you could get up smashes out of them with the right scenarios, at the very least Dash attack is pretty feasible to combo thunder jolt out of (and does eventually kill).

And I really can't overstate how fast this ****er actually is though. His mobility specifics flow together almost perfectly, better than just about any character I've dabbled with (moreso than Diddy and ZSS). I really can jump hoops around so much of the cast without commitment, all of his aerials seem to have proper auto cancels (down air and back air definitely do shortly after hitbox ends; this is pretty significant to shield pressure). Approaching him is a massive chore, and so is hitting him, meanwhile he has a slew of easy 2-3 frame hitconfirms all the frikken time.

I'm pretty convinced Pikachu will be having advantages on:
I'm still not certain on but I feel like Pika's small size and speed kinda just... runs through Luma and is just too small for Rosalina to actually hit with anything and can find himself mostly safe on her shield. At the very least, Pika outcamps , and I feel like when you take away Pika's chain grabs on Sheik, but also take away Sheik's ftilt chains on pika, Pika comes out in front still.
Look hard on paper, but at least in Bowser's case I only see it getting better for Pika.
With Ice Climbers gone, and gimped, three of the harder Pika match ups are no longer an issue. was hard in Brawl primarily because of two bananas, with Diddy's camp shifted backwards a few pegs, I see more potential for Pika doing well even with diddy's other buffs.
may still pose threats, but I no longer feel confident in saying Marth beats Pikachu when the new clank mechanics of the game are really ****ty for dealing with projectiles.

This man. Pikachu is still insane. He'd just be straight up broken if he had strong KO moves. I wouldn't be surprised if the character was top 10 in the future. In a game where traps into KO confirms are effectively the meta...Pikachu is nearly untrappable if he plays right. And his approach is stupid impossible to react to.

It's like, I don't even know if that kind of thing should be allowed.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Im curious on why you think Pikachu would beat ZSS. Im not disagreeing, Im just not sure why. I know Pika won in Brawl, but tbh I never really followed/watched that match up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Im curious on why you think Pikachu would beat ZSS. Im not disagreeing, Im just not sure why. I know Pika won in Brawl, but tbh I never really followed/watched that match up.

Small target, extremely hard to trap, actually can make midrange unsafe for ZSS who doesn't have strong OOS options?

Seems intuitive if I think about it that way.

 

[Shaya]

The notion that you can keep Mac out with footsies (as any character, let alone Yoshi) shows that you really have no idea what the character is capable of.
.

This kinda shows you don't play this game in any situation other than wifi?
What are the types of things that Mac would actually consider problematic character traits?
Great aerial game with safety
A great grab game and means of getting the grab *cough, air grabs*
Solid ground range and speed.
Projectile / keep away game
Yoshi ticks it all, plus comes with being a heavy weight. Iono.

Mac does not have an infallible ground game whatsoever. He clearly dominates close range combat, and has mid range reach. His mid range game is otherwise pitiful, he has a slow grab with poor range (please don't tell me his roll cancelled grab suddenly gives him mid range potency: it doesn't), he cannot force the approach. dash attack isn't bad, jolt is Wizard Kick level. We can already see all of Mac's strengths for the most part, with his weaknesses being plain as day as well, with likely more room for other characters to advance; being the centre or the "focus" of the meta can be pretty bad for some characters. I doubt Mac won't ever not be annoying on Wifi when he has 1/3rd of FD sub 20 frame actions with super armor, but moves like those aren't good in neutral offline and if that's all a character has (note: Mac has more) they're going to fall to the wayside.

 

[Jabejazz]

Forward Smash having sweetspot on the tipper, looks a little faster than Brawl and is completely disjoint (definitely outspaces the swordsman of the game and I think Dedede's ftilt at least as well)

Can confirrm it doesnt.

Regardless, Pikachu is stupid good, wake up folks.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Small target, extremely hard to trap, actually can make midrange unsafe for ZSS who doesn't have strong OOS options?

Seems intuitive if I think about it that way.

Are ZSS's OoS options really that bad though? Her jab is actually good now and she has zair/nair/uair oos as well. I can see the small size being a problem for paralyzer, but in that case why not just use more side b and nair? I mean, from my point of view, I can see these being problems with Brawl ZSS, which Im starting to assume is why she lost the MU there, but with the changes in this game, I dont see those main points being strong enough with her changes.

 

[Shaya]

Im curious on why you think Pikachu would beat ZSS. Im not disagreeing, Im just not sure why. I know Pika won in Brawl, but tbh I never really followed/watched that match up.

Thunder jolt is really really good against her. Like, really, really good. Neutral of the match is in Pika's favour. Aerial thunder jolts (the small 45 degree angle bolt thing) can travel around/through ZSS' laser. ZSS is forced to approach.
A lot of her moves don't hit Pikachu standing on the ground, or crouching. In particular, all of Pikachu's aerials landing animation flatten him on the ground below the likes of her grab, jab, ftilt, side b.

I feel like she gets zoned at 45 degrees above her head without really any answer to it, Pika can land with aerials safely on her shield and is the cross up king. It doesn't help either that she dies to thunder jolt off stage (bolt trails around the ledge and downwards and ZSS Up-B doesn't have invincibility, tethering the ledge is easy to cover with tjolt + nair), her high recovery down-b loses to thunder (hooray for a match up usage!).

In short:
Full hop range above ZSS' head. Thunder jolt covers all of her ground to air options and is pretty sufficient in controlling her grounded movements as well. Shield pressures, frame traps, sets up into combos. She can't reliable punish his aerials on her shield, especially when he's coming down to the ground with them while thunder jolts are also trailing along.

 

[DavemanCozy]

How can you say Mewtwo won't be a Lucario clone ? Lucario was basically a semi-clone of old mewtwo, I don't see why it wouldn't still be the case.

Oh look, you found the time portal to 2008. Thank gosh, I thought it had been lost with all the "Wolf is a clone of Fox" arguments, glad to see it's been found.

 

[Terotrous]

Mac does not have an infallible ground game whatsoever. He clearly dominates close range combat, and has mid range reach. His mid range game is otherwise pitiful, he has a slow grab with poor range (please don't tell me his roll cancelled grab suddenly gives him mid range potency: it doesn't), he cannot force the approach. dash attack isn't bad, jolt is Wizard Kick level.

Why would Mac ever need to force an approach? He has one of the best dashes in the entire game and he has a side B that goes through projectiles. That's basically all he needs to get in on pretty much anyone except maybe Toon Link or something. What makes him so scary is that he is very strong in close range combat and he has the right tools to get and stay in that range.

We can already see all of Mac's strengths for the most part, with his weaknesses being plain as day as well, with likely more room for other characters to advance; being the centre or the "focus" of the meta can be pretty bad for some characters

A lot of people still seem to be basing their understanding of Little Mac on what they see on For Glory, which is in no way representative of the character. Almost no Macs on For Glory realize you can do anything other than Dash Attack out of a dash. With pivot cancels and shield drops in his bag, Mac has access to much safer pressure that forces you to deal with him in a different way than just "block dash attack and throw". He also has pretty solid combos, like DTilt to USmash, jab jab to KO Punch, and so on, yet people frequently claim that he has "no combos".

It's possible that Mac's ceiling may be lower than most other characters since he's kind of a simple character but I really don't see much about Yoshi that's likely to radically change the matchup, despite his buffs his general gameplan isn't radically different from past titles.

 

[kyxsune]

Regarding pikachu, he seems to be in an odd position.

Thunder jolt is really really good against her. Like, really, really good. Neutral of the match is in Pika's favour. Aerial thunder jolts (the small 45 degree angle bolt thing) can travel around/through ZSS' laser. ZSS is forced to approach.
A lot of her moves don't hit Pikachu standing on the ground, or crouching. In particular, all of Pikachu's aerials landing animation flatten him on the ground below the likes of her grab, jab, ftilt, side b.

I feel like she gets zoned at 45 degrees above her head without really any answer to it, Pika can land with aerials safely on her shield and is the cross up king. It doesn't help either that she dies to thunder jolt off stage (bolt trails around the ledge and downwards and ZSS Up-B doesn't have invincibility, tethering the ledge is easy to cover with tjolt + nair), her high recovery down-b loses to thunder (hooray for a match up usage!).

In short:
Full hop range above ZSS' head. Thunder jolt covers all of her ground to air options and is pretty sufficient in controlling her grounded movements as well. Shield pressures, frame traps, sets up into combos. She can't reliable punish his aerials on her shield, especially when he's coming down to the ground with them while thunder jolts are also trailing along.

As a ZSS, main I can confirm pikachu is a problem most of the time below 50% because his short hop air game is devastatingly hard to punish for ZSS. But pikachu, seems to have problems finishing her off. Maybe its just me, because I would get wrecked by a pikachu online till i hit 70-110% then would proceed to kill them before they could kill me. Happened 6 games in a row before they left.

 

[Terotrous]

Notice how in that vid Yoshi used Egg Lay pretty much never and also tried to fight Mac on the ground, both no no's in the match up.

He actually did quite a lot of Egg Lay. I didn't count it, but I'm sure it's at least 5-10 per match. That's part of why he won, it is indeed a good option against Little Mac because he can't armor it.

The point isn't who wins the ground game, Mac does, im not arguing that, but the ground game isnt all that matters, and even then, Yoshi can hold his own on the ground regardless. Once Mac gets hit by ANYTHING though, match up turns into a rock paper scissors where if there's a tie, Yoshi wins, then on top of that, Mac dies WAY earlier, not even counting the gimp potential, and Mac has no solid ways to kill Yoshi, notice how Yoshi was living to like 160% or higher basically every stock.

FSmash and KO punch are certainly solid options for killing. Even Ftilt kills at like 120.

It's a shame Awestin didn't come back to Shockwave 4, I'd like to see a rematch between those two. I definitely agree that there was some matchup unfamiliarity there on both sides.

 

[Shaya]

Oh yeah, don't talk about mewtwo or the notion of DLC here. Keep the speculator scumbaggery to somewhere more seedy and less attractive to read.

Regarding pikachu, he seems to be in an odd position.


As a ZSS, main I can confirm pikachu is a problem most of the time below 50% because his short hop air game is devastatingly hard to punish for ZSS. But pikachu, seems to have problems finishing her off. Maybe its just me, because I would get wrecked by a pikachu online till i hit 70-110% then would proceed to kill them before they could kill me. Happened 6 games in a row before they left.

That was all I had issues with in the early days; killing. But I kept working on it and become more comfortable with his options. You can't land a kill with him on Wifi with anything but Dash Attack. But I can outspace you with fsmash for kills, dash up smash ludicrously fast and have forward air hitconfirm fast fall combos and it's safe on shield to boot.

On Wifi I still have issues, but use his monstrous forward tilt and down tilt to keep knocking people away in a way I'm sure most opponents find frustrating. The landing punishment or the off stage opportunity comes up eventually.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh yeah, don't talk about mewtwo

i think mewtwo will be bad again