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Character Competitive Impressions

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Nairo

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Shulk's alright, it's just very hard to play him on the 3DS imo. Retreating fair and DACUS are two important options that will only be available on the Wii U version. It'll also take a while until Shulk players figure out optimal use of Monado Arts because it's slightly different for every matchup. Then you have to take into account that certain ATs have yet to be implemented into Shulks game - being able to cancel the ending lag of moves through Monado Art activation is huge. Once players start refining Shulk's edgeguarding game some more and abuse the rage mechanics I think the character can be quite a threat, it'll just take a long time until players get there. I think he'll perform respectably in almost every matchup eventually. Rosalina is the only one who seems REALLY bad for Shulk but she's OP anyway and people will start complaining about her in the near future.

You know who seems really bad? ... Robin. She is slow, lacks mobility and completely lacks the tools to break most characters' defenses. Fast-paced characters can just hit and run against her. Characters with a good projectile game can wall her out for days. People overrate the character because of Nairo imo but once Nakat figured out the matchup with Ness he'd stop losing to his Robin. Things will only get worse when other people start doing similar things as Nakat does. Frankly, Robin seems to be nothing more than a buffed Ganondorf with projectiles, disjointed hitboxes and a better recovery. I don't see much of a future for that character.

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Buffed ganondorf......except being better than ganondorf at everything lol...clearly you have no idea what you are talking about the character has many things that he/she can do and you are judging it off me vs nakat who play almost everyday in the match up and is his best match up so if there was anyone that would always do well vs my robin atm it would be him but yea I wouldn't be winning if the character is easy to beat as you are making it sound to be. Sure fast characters can be a problem for her but even then the match ups aren't impossible for her. Nobody is putting in the time with her except for me but I'm sure in time there will be another great robin player that may do some work.
 

DavemanCozy

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Yellow may be best used if you take a stock and are at a high percent when they come back. Lets you rack up some free damage. If you're really evil you stall with Green when Yellow is down. Yellow is greatly hindered because it also decreases his damage.
Yellow happens to buff his Shield too. Shulk is actually capable of taking all hits from Bowser's Bomb without getting his shield broken. This instantly buffs his OoS options.

Purple is garbage. Like I said, Shulk is actually a really bad character at baseline. Purple does not affect his attributes in any meaningful way so you are left with a vanilla Shulk that does more damage with less hitstun and TAKES more damage as well. I can't find a situation for purple to be useful yet but I haven't spent time experimenting in training mode yet.
Less knockback + more damage is what makes it worth using. I found that up-throw -> up-tilt combos even on opponents at ~100%. Also good is that you get that opponent from ~100% to ~130% in a very short and simple string of hits.

Buster is bad in the sense that it doesn't buff anything else though, so you're basically stuck with the mediocre Shulk that has a hard time approaching / getting close to opponents. In my experience, it's best used when the opponent is at high percents. Like shield, I feel like it should also be used when you have the advantage to mitigate the risks.

I wish Shulk was better. I struggle in matches with Shulk that I can roflstomp with a handful of other characters. The gamecube controller will help him a lot but I don't think it will help him enough. We'll see though.
I personally think he's a bottom-mid character myself. I also think he's a way better character in doubles, due to the great support role he can play with his monado arts effects.

EDIT:
On another topic, what are the thoughts on Fox right now? I personally think he's still a solid mid-tier, even with his nerfs.
 
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Cherubas

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PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THING I SAID ABOUT NESS.
His spike was obviously much better in the past, but otherwise thank you for echoing my opinions. Glad we could come to a consensus.
 

Remzi

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Buffed ganondorf......except being better than ganondorf at everything lol...clearly you have no idea what you are talking about the character has many things that he/she can do and you are judging it off me vs nakat who play almost everyday in the match up and is his best match up so if there was anyone that would always do well vs my robin atm it would be him but yea I wouldn't be winning if the character is easy to beat as you are making it sound to be. Sure fast characters can be a problem for her but even then the match ups aren't impossible for her. Nobody is putting in the time with her except for me but I'm sure in time there will be another great robin player that may do some work.
Lol, yeah the Ganondorf comparison was pretty silly. I think Robin is a solid character with unfortunately tough matchups among the "higher tier" characters. Sheik, Greninja, and maybe Diddy in particular seem really tough for him. I think Robin could potentially counter Rosalina though, which is huge in a metagame where she has taken the early crown.

Also, I've seen Sethlon and Xzax using Robin as well, so there should be no shortage of representation for him/her.
 

ThatLunaticFeline

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EDIT:
On another topic, what are the thoughts on Fox right now? I personally think he's still a solid mid-tier, even with his nerfs.
I'm a fan of Fox. While his voice is unbelievably annoying ("hnyunh" will stay in your mind forever when you upsmash everything in Smash Run) he still has some very solid killmoves, despite losing a bit of damage-dealing ability. My argument is that a lot of major characters lost damage-dealing abilities so this nerf isn't so big on a character like Fox, especially when his smashes are so fast and his bair is stronger than ever. I'd put him in high-mid, perhaps not high or top when compared with the damage dealing of Yoshi, Diddy, Sonic and (at higher %s) Lucario, yet certainly strong enough to compete effectively with Shulk, Bowser, Pit and Jiggly.
 

Terotrous

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On another topic, what are the thoughts on Fox right now? I personally think he's still a solid mid-tier, even with his nerfs.
I would also tend to say mid tier. I feel like with that speed, he could never be lower than mid tier. No matter what they do to his KO power, he's always going to have the ability to get in and put on damage because he's just so mobile. He might have to hunt for a kill move but a lot of characters have that problem. What really makes a character bottom tier is when good characters can just wall them out and prevent them from doing damage, let alone landing KO moves.
 

Paul the Octopus

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How big of a deal is rosalinas infinite (on sheik, cap falcon, etc)? I haven't tested it or seen it enough to know how easy it is to set up in a real match. I'd imagine that it's matchup changing if it's even remotely practical and would easily turn matchups like the sheik one in her favor - 6:4 if not 7:3 in rosalinas favor. *If* it is viable, to me rosalina is easily number one in the game (still not OP as long as greninja and zss have even ish matchups and can't be infinited, but number one nonetheless).
 

Thinkaman

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How big of a deal is rosalinas infinite (on sheik, cap falcon, etc)? I haven't tested it or seen it enough to know how easy it is to set up in a real match.
It's not real on humans. You can SDI inward.

Oops, double post.

I'm recanting my prediction of Palutena as a potential worst character.

I played a lot of games and tested some interactions yesterday. I'm pretty sure she actually wants 23*1 in every matchup. Auto-Reticule is just too poor against humans, while Explosive Flame retains a lot of utility. Reflect Barrier is great, but Super Speed is top-10-moves-in-game level of good and single-handedly makes the characters. Warp and Jump Glide both seem viable. Counter seems mostly superior to Firework in every matchup, but we'll see.
 
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Terotrous

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Oops, double post.

I'm recanting my prediction of Palutena as a potential worst character.

I played a lot of games and tested some interactions yesterday. I'm pretty sure she actually wants 23*1 in every matchup. Auto-Reticule is just too poor against humans, while Explosive Flame retains a lot of utility. Reflect Barrier is great, but Super Speed is top-10-moves-in-game level of good and single-handedly makes the characters. Warp and Jump Glide both seem viable. Counter seems mostly superior to Firework in every matchup, but we'll see.
It'll be interesting to see what custom set Aerolink uses at Shockwave this week, because I think it's pretty safe to say that he's the most notable Palutena player right now. He does have some setups with autoreticule, but given the large number of situations it doesn't cover I wouldn't be shocked to see him switch it out.
 

Thinkaman

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It'll be interesting to see what custom set Aerolink uses at Shockwave this week, because I think it's pretty safe to say that he's the most notable Palutena player right now. He does have some setups with autoreticule, but given the large number of situations it doesn't cover I wouldn't be shocked to see him switch it out.
Yeah, Auto-Reticule seems clearly like the sort of move that just gets worse and worse the more experience the players involved both have.

Edit: If someone told me that Palutena is willing to give up Super Speed to retain Reflect Barrier against Duck Hunt, Villager, and Mii Gunner, I'd probably believe them. But I can't see it against anyone else. ...Robin? Yoshi? ROB? WFT? Mega Man? Super Speed and all the options it brings still seem really good against those characters. All of them except maybe WFT can still put up a projectile-less neutral that Palutena doesn't want to deal with.

When Palutena is coming at you with Super Speed (either from the ground or air), everything else is put on hold and you are now playing her game, if only for a moment. It's like a different, slightly better Sonic spin that can't be spammed.
 
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Jabejazz

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The more I see stuff about Palutena, the less I believe she's a contender for worst character.

She's one of those characters with a great custom set, with tools to adapt to so many different situations, she can't be this terrible.

Hell, even without custom moves, her grab game makes me jealous.
 

Thinkaman

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The more I see stuff about Palutena, the less I believe she's a contender for worst character.

She's one of those characters with a great custom set, with tools to adapt to so many different situations, she can't be this terrible.

Hell, even without custom moves, her grab game makes me jealous.
A lot of my initial impressions of Palutena were wrong--both bad and good.

I'm less impressed with her throw game now. D-throw followups just don't work well on humans. All those sexy RAR bair true combos you get on CPUs just can't work against humans who DI. But her throws are still good, with high damage and good base distance. Palutena thrives in the non-neutral, so getting people in the air or off-stage is great in-and-of itself.

All her crazy assortment of customs (so adaptable, much diversity, wow) turns out to boil down to a few best moves like pretty much everyone else. The catch is, one of those is Super Speed.
 

Terotrous

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I'm less impressed with her throw game now. D-throw followups just don't work well on humans.
Uhh, Aerolink lands like 10 of them per match.

Dthrow doesn't only connect to Fair, Nair and Uair are also possible. You may have to read which way the opponent vectors to get the appropriate follow-up, but I think she can get something in almost every situation.
 

Thinkaman

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Sorry if I was unclear, her d-throw is still a great option with lots of good followups. But, contrary to early reports, none of them are true combos. I don't think she has any guaranteed followups on simple DI reads, but absolutely has tons of pain to dish out on DI + air dodge (or not) read. It's a very good position.
 

Terotrous

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I'm pretty sure Dthrow to Fair is guaranteed at low percents. I've yet to see anyone escape it.
 

epicgordan

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Lol, yeah the Ganondorf comparison was pretty silly. I think Robin is a solid character with unfortunately tough matchups among the "higher tier" characters. Sheik, Greninja, and maybe Diddy in particular seem really tough for him. I think Robin could potentially counter Rosalina though, which is huge in a metagame where she has taken the early crown.

Also, I've seen Sethlon and Xzax using Robin as well, so there should be no shortage of representation for him/her.
Given that Rosalina has Gravitational Pull and her Luma can absorb the damage levied from his Levon Sword, the only worse matchup for Robin in the game is Zero Suit Samus, and that's because the latter has a 0-KO combo against him. Sheik, Greninja, and Diddy Kong are not exactly good matchups either though, so you and I can agree to that.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Given that Rosalina has Gravitational Pull and her Luma can absorb the damage levied from his Levon Sword, the only worse matchup for Robin in the game is Zero Suit Samus, and that's because the latter has a 0-KO combo against him. Sheik, Greninja, and Diddy Kong are not exactly good matchups either though, so you and I can agree to that.
Arcfire is an excellent defensive tool against Rosalina since it stops Luma cold and Rosalina can't Gravitational Pull it after the fire wall appears. It's possible to work around, but Rosalina needs to be clever about it.
 

Thinkaman

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Given that Rosalina has Gravitational Pull and her Luma can absorb the damage levied from his Levon Sword, the only worse matchup for Robin in the game is Zero Suit Samus, and that's because the latter has a 0-KO combo against him. Sheik, Greninja, and Diddy Kong are not exactly good matchups either though, so you and I can agree to that.
Not sure why Robin and his Levin Sword would fair any worse against Rosalina than any other melee attack. If anything, disjointed attacks are even more valuable against Rosalina. Fast, powerful melee attacks are great for casually ending Luma, and it's important to be able to challenge Rosalina's fair.

While Robin dislikes all anti-projectile tools, Gravitational Pull doesn't reflect or otherwise hit Robin with his failed Thoron punishes.

He does hate people who can keep him from charging though, Rosalina and the above-mentioned speedy characters included. I think these are indeed likely to prove his worst matchups.
 
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Conda

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I honestly think Ness is actually decent this time around. Dair is slower, but it has a huge hitbox. You can stand on the ledge and spike people. He traded power for the fact that it's now a true spike and will kill people above 100% always if it hits.

Yoyos are useful.

Pkt juggling is significantly safer.

Pk fire is still a noobkiller move and only that really. Not that good at higher levels of play since you can get out of it in so many ways.

He has sh double aerials. Nair and bair are both good and semi safe on shields if spaced properly and the opponent slides a lot. Uair kills and has a better animation than brawl. No grab release stuff. Pkt customs and lucas' pk fire can be useful alternatives to his moves depending on the matchcup. I think he's definitely going to be at least mid/high tier this game.
I think the 'getting out of PK Fire early' thing is a little overstated. If you get out after a few hits, that's still a ton of damage and control stick mashing required on your part, and Ness can usually still come in and grab or dash-attack you no matter how you get out. If you get out early it'll be in a janky way. If it's down and with shielding, then you get grabbed. If it's up or to the sides, you can get grabbed or dash attacked.

I think what you're referring to is when a Ness player will PK Fire and then stay at range. PK Fire is supposed to be a move you use and then capitalize on in close-range. Tossing another PK Fire or running away is a lost opportunity.

Although tossing multiple PK Fires can work if your opponent is a fatty, but it's still just a better idea to go from the grab / dash attack / upsmash instead.

If it IS more escapable than I seem to realise, let me know with a video or thread or something. But I haven't seen others escape it super quickly and safely, nor have I been able to (and when I did, the Ness didn't come in to punish me, hence the safeness not really being truly there).
 

Mr. Johan

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Robin's kinda like Brawl GW in the sense that his zoning tools and range are really good at keeping the sub-par characters down, but all that comes crashing down against the characters commonly regarded as the best.

He'll probably get a little jump when Sm4sh U comes out and he has a Cstick to reliably whip out Levin aerials, but unless something big comes up for him, he's gotta work hard to get those wins. Like GW though, I think he's firmly mid tier, if not higher-mid.
 

kyxsune

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Not sure how strong of a defense I can make of this statement, but It seems like ZSS is a good counter-pick against the other 'big' 3 ( Rosaluma, Shiek, and Greninja).

Her paralyzer stops luma in its tracks, allowing for a good distance between rosalina and luma, if pushed further with a side b follow up. Her down tilt, is good for the close range combat with rosaluma because it strikes below luma to hit Rosalina, and of course her ability to keep opponents in the air is solid.

She can keep up with sheiks pace to a reasonable extent, and her footsies and aerial mobility are just enough to keep up with shieks ground game. The good ol down B is a great escape from some of her combos. only downside of this matchup is that sheik can control the long range with her knives pretty easily, meaning ZSS has to stay in that ideal mid range for most of the fight.

Greninja, well that ones obvious.
 

HiNiTe

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Arcfire is an excellent defensive tool against Rosalina since it stops Luma cold and Rosalina can't Gravitational Pull it after the fire wall appears. It's possible to work around, but Rosalina needs to be clever about it.
It is pretty effective but given how predictable of use Robin will have to rely on it to "zone" Rosalina (as if that's even possible), Rosalina still won't have a difficult time against Robin as implied, if she even had any to begin with.
 
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Not sure how strong of a defense I can make of this statement, but It seems like ZSS is a good counter-pick against the other 'big' 3 ( Rosaluma, Shiek, and Greninja).

Her paralyzer stops luma in its tracks, allowing for a good distance between rosalina and luma, if pushed further with a side b follow up. Her down tilt, is good for the close range combat with rosaluma because it strikes below luma to hit Rosalina, and of course her ability to keep opponents in the air is solid.

She can keep up with sheiks pace to a reasonable extent, and her footsies and aerial mobility are just enough to keep up with shieks ground game. The good ol down B is a great escape from some of her combos. only downside of this matchup is that sheik can control the long range with her knives pretty easily, meaning ZSS has to stay in that ideal mid range for most of the fight.

Greninja, well that ones obvious.
ZSS has huge problems dealing with Sheik's projectile. I don't knwo if that's enough to make it a bad match-up, but if Sheik gets far away enough from ZSS with a life lead it is very difficult to approach the stupid ninja

I haven't played it enough to say much otherwise, but i do think sheik players should approach this matchup in the gayest way possible and try not to do many flashy shenanigans or approaches, ZSS eats approaches and aggressive opponents for breakfast

ZSS seems somewhere between even-and-great vs rosalina, sheik, yoshi, and greninja, but suffers a little vs diddy and sheik... at least IMO.

The rest of the cast is almost entirely 6-4 zss' favor or 5-5 at worst

big characters like bowser and DK might be even better than that for zss... unless it's DK with custom moves on battlefield SHRUG EMOTE
 
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kyxsune

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ZSS has huge problems dealing with Sheik's projectile. I don't knwo if that's enough to make it a bad match-up, but if Sheik gets far away enough from ZSS with a life lead it is very difficult to approach the stupid ninja

ZSS seems somewhere between even-and-great vs rosalina, sheik, yoshi, and greninja, but suffers a little vs diddy and sheik... at least IMO.

The rest of the cast is almost entirely 6-4 zss' favor or 5-5 at worst

big characters like bowser and DK might be even better than that for zss... unless it's DK with custom moves on battlefield SHRUG EMOTE
Thats the thing, shes solid against pretty much everyone, I'd say its a 5:5 against sheik, its pretty easy to tip in either favor depending on flow of the match. Overall against the majority of the cast its a 6:4 (6.5:3.5) if you include the heavy large charachters who cant DI out of her down grab up b finisher.
 

Riverside J

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Hello all. I've been playing GreNinja a lot and with about quite a bit of play time with I do thing he will be good, but his kill power is a concern of mine. He a good character none the less. But I don't know of he will remain in the tops once the meta game grows.

One character, I really like that doesn't seem to be getting a lot of attention is Pit. He has a really good Nair with little to no recovery. Good range on his Side tilt and down tilt moves. I was able to stop a lot of moves with it. I've have a good win rate with him online (but it's online, so I take it with a grain of salt). 89-12, since I started, and 238-138 with GreNinja. So far I'm I think he is a very solid character.
 
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Yonder

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Some impressions after my time playing. Most of them are after tons of matches on for Glory vsing these characters:


The top 5 I think are Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Greninja, Diddy in that order. Sheik is, by far and away, the most used online [People say Mac, but he's rare compared to Sheik]. Sheik has great projectiles, legitimate combos, especially with tilts and throws, very fast, great specials, and she can pull off kills a bit earlier with her aerials. She absolutely can't kill on the ground though, that's her only flaw.


ZSS is essentially like Sheik, very very overused online, 2nd to Sheik. She's also fast, good range, has troubles killing and her grab is ok. I see her as a very very slightly worse Sheik in most matters.


Rosalina's luma is very annoying, able to control most of the stage if used properly. A relatively high skill curb to master, but deadly. She's still a high tier even without the luma. I think her biggest flaw though is her gigantic size and light weight though, very susceptible to being killed early if you can pressure her when she loses Luma, while not being hard to do so thanks to her size. She's decently fast too, but not to the same level as ZSS or Sheik.


Greninja when I first tried everyone out felt the most fluent and easy to use. He feels like a Melee character in this. Great projectile, throws usually go into combos, grab range might be slightly bigger than most i'm not sure...he does struggle to kill though. Moreso than the others listed above.


Diddy may have lost 1 banana, but I felt that his normals were buffed immensely in terms of speed. Other than that, same old Diddy. Bananas are still deadly. His attacks being buffed all around to helps a lot. Still can't kill great though and his recovery can be gimped.


Lucario looks like a solid #6 to me, those aura mechanics are just plain scary in this game added with the rage effect. But all his moves feel like they need to be much more precise in this game than the last. I don't like playing him much this time around. Doesn't change that aura is insane though. He's be mid tier if he only had the aura effects from brawl


Sonic seems like #7 to me. He looks as if he can actually combo with his spin dashes this time around with more priority attacks. I hate his playstyle, but it works in this game.



Then we got high tiers. where I think Falcon , Duck Hunt, Bowser, Robin, and Mac will lie. Falcon is back to his Melee glory days, pretty much identical to his Melee counterpart, except he's easier to control. My favorite Falcon in Smash Bros yet. Mac is very polarizing, but I'm in the portion that believes he will stay strong through his stay. Super armor smashes are ridiculous, and he kills a lot earlier than most in a game with increased blast zones. He may fluctuate in the high tier, but he will stay there. Duck Hunt still has crazy projectiles, but not a great anything else. He shuts out Bowser very, very hardcore though. Duck Hunt could stand to be a bit faster though. Bowser is also a high tier thanks to numerous speed buffs and able to kill earlier than most in a game where everyone got nerfed killing power. Absolutely shut down by projectiles though, see Duck Hunt.


I could see Meta Knight hovering around the high-middle of the mid tier range. He does feel pretty bad compared to Brawl Meta Knight, of course. He's pretty bad at everything but racking damage and offstage game, which is still great. Other than that, really bad. But his offstage game is super strong still, and his moves rack damage well.


Robin has a well balanced game of range and power. His projectiles are versatile like Thunder, Elwind for spikes and recovery, and arcfire for grabs and landing moves. Also his Levin sword is STRONG. You can kill around 90% with it in the air and ground with smash attacks surprisingly. He’s a bit on the slow side though, his nosferatu is a bit under par [distant nosferatu looks great though] and although I don’t see see elwind spam being a problem, it can happen, leaving Robin with no recovery during crucial moments. Someone who can exploit making Robin using his resources up though would be the reason Robin drops lower on the tier list.


Game and Watch is worse than his Brawl counterpart. I think he’s a middle tier better than Mario and Luigi, but not by much. He feels fasters overall, but I find it tough to pull off kills with him this time around. He was also a secondary of mine in Brawl. His aerials feel overall better though. D tilt is weaker, Grab game is weaker. Not like he changed much otherwise, but he does feel worse than his Brawl half.


Middle of the middle tier looks like Mario, then Luigi, then a few other characters, and Doc take the very bottom of the mid in this game. Mario takes the edge over Luigi in this one thanks to the [slightly] better D throw than Luigi and overall speed. I mean, if Mario grabs you at 0% you are guaranteed 40% and there is nothing you can do about it. Fludd seems a bit more useful this time around too. He feels very fluent in this one, and fair lands more consistently this time around.


And Luigi my main...still don't see why people are calling him low. He lost KO ability yes, his recovery isn't great either [usable, but not great. Better than recoveries such as Marth though] but his D throw is massively improved, so many leadups from it [Combos from 50+ if you get lucky with Dair spikes...sometimes. potentially better combos that Mario with the D throw but too situational]. His ground speed is a little better, his fireballs are definitely faster and usable now. Not great, but usable. His very slow in the air and easy to juggle though. Tornado is massively buffed as a kill move. It's not great for recovery [unless you use tornado 2, but then you lose it's awesome attacking prowess]. But yeah, great approaching, few moves stop a falling tornado. Heck, very few expect a rising one off the ground. If you're anything over 100% near the top of the screen and hit with the tornado, you're dead. Dair in general is faster and the spike is about 50% more likely now. I’ve scored numerous kills landing this offstage and it sets up basically any move you want if you hit the spike. Even up Bs in the air. Uppercut is weaker...but less punishment if you miss, at least. Missile sucks. Reduced to 1/10 misfire, but I think the actual misfire may be better. Use any custom over this please. Overall though he is Brawl Luigi with a better combo game and projectile in trade for killing and recovery [both which he can still do average]. He's an average character, which makes him a MIDDLE TIER. Just slightly worse than Mario due to a speed disadvantage.


Doc. Now here's the guy I think people are overrating. He's the one who I think could be low tier at the drop of a hat, as soon as I play with more characters extensively. He feels horribly sluggish compared to Mario, his D throw does not combo nearly as well, his tornado is a laughable distance for recovery and inferior to Luigi's tornado in almost all aspects, and I think Mario's dair is better than Docs. Also Mario's fair not being able to spike is saddening. Although he can kill better than Mario and his pills are a hair better...he's not great compared to Mario, or Luigi. I expected him to be better than Mario initially. I was wrong.


Low tiers are looking like maybe Doc, WFT, Ike, Olimar, and Palutena in that order to me. WFT has the most potential out of all these characters though. I just haven’t seen it yet. I would probably be convinced after playing a good WFT, but I still can’t stand those awkward hitboxes and killing power being reliant on deep breathing which is hard to pull off while being pressured. Soccer ball isn’t a great projectile either and difficult to hit with [I know about the giant ball custom, I’m going off of normal moves]. I did learn it was a meteor smash up close today though…She’s also pretty fluent movement wise. I do see potential for middle tier for sure with WFT, but I have to see good WFT players first. Maybe I’ll go look at Youtube.


Ike is just inferior to his Brawl counterpart when Killing was about all he had along with his range. Without that kill power…he feels like half a man. Everything else is still there for the most part though, exactly the same. He was a low mid before and now he’s a top low now.


Olimar is just flatout worse than his Brawl counterpart. Losing those 3 Pikmin were a major, major hit. He was my secondary in Brawl, I just can’t play him now. His Pikmin feel less durable now [Yes, I know about his custom again], and they run out far quicker with only 3 in tow. The order is nice sure, but I just really don’t like him here. His recovery is pretty easy to intercept too. Could be worse than Palutena.


Palutena for the reasons listed by everyone basically. Horribly slow tilts, horrible default specials, nothing else special aside from grab game and a great u smash. I’m sure she’s better with customs but I don’t look at customs.



Everyone else I haven’t looked into enough or seen enough. Shulk has potential though. Also I tend to have better experience with boxer/up close characters. I hate zoners, which is why I dropped Duck Hunt...anyways,I don’t think anyone is unusable in this game at all, nor do I see any bottom tiers.
 
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epicgordan

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Some impressions after my time playing. Most of them are after tons of matches on for Glory vsing these characters:


The top 5 I think are Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Greninja, Diddy in that order. Sheik is, by far and away, the most used online [People say Mac, but he's rare compared to Sheik]. Sheik has great projectiles, legitimate combos, especially with tilts and throws, very fast, great specials, and she can pull off kills a bit earlier with her aerials. She absolutely can't kill on the ground though, that's her only flaw.


ZSS is essentially like Sheik, very very overused online, 2nd to Sheik. She's also fast, good range, has troubles killing and her grab is ok. I see her as a very very slightly worse Sheik in most matters.


Rosalina's luma is very annoying, able to control most of the stage if used properly. A relatively high skill curb to master, but deadly. She's still a high tier even without the luma. I think her biggest flaw though is her gigantic size and light weight though, very susceptible to being killed early if you can pressure her when she loses Luma, while not being hard to do so thanks to her size. She's decently fast too, but not to the same level as ZSS or Sheik.


Greninja when I first tried everyone out felt the most fluent and easy to use. He feels like a Melee character in this. Great projectile, throws usually go into combos, grab range might be slightly bigger than most i'm not sure...he does struggle to kill though. Moreso than the others listed above.


Diddy may have lost 1 banana, but I felt that his normals were buffed immensely in terms of speed. Other than that, same old Diddy. Bananas are still deadly. His attacks being buffed all around to helps a lot. Still can't kill great though and his recovery can be gimped.


Lucario looks like a solid #6 to me, those aura mechanics are just plain scary in this game added with the rage effect. But all his moves feel like they need to be much more precise in this game than the last. I don't like playing him much this time around. Doesn't change that aura is insane though. He's be mid tier if he only had the aura effects from brawl


Sonic seems like #7 to me. He looks as if he can actually combo with his spin dashes this time around with more priority attacks. I hate his playstyle, but it works in this game.



Then we got high tiers. where I think Falcon , Duck Hunt, Bowser, Robin, and Mac will lie. Falcon is back to his Melee glory days, pretty much identical to his Melee counterpart, except he's easier to control. My favorite Falcon in Smash Bros yet. Mac is very polarizing, but I'm in the portion that believes he will stay strong through his stay. Super armor smashes are ridiculous, and he kills a lot earlier than most in a game with increased blast zones. He may fluctuate in the high tier, but he will stay there. Duck Hunt still has crazy projectiles, but not a great anything else. He shuts out Bowser very, very hardcore though. Duck Hunt could stand to be a bit faster though. Bowser is also a high tier thanks to numerous speed buffs and able to kill earlier than most in a game where everyone got nerfed killing power. Absolutely shut down by projectiles though, see Duck Hunt.


I could see Meta Knight hovering around the high-middle of the mid tier range. He does feel pretty bad compared to Brawl Meta Knight, of course. He's pretty bad at everything but racking damage and offstage game, which is still great. Other than that, really bad. But his offstage game is super strong still, and his moves rack damage well.


Robin has a well balanced game of range and power. His projectiles are versatile like Thunder, Elwind for spikes and recovery, and arcfire for grabs and landing moves. Also his Levin sword is STRONG. You can kill around 90% with it in the air and ground with smash attacks surprisingly. He’s a bit on the slow side though, his nosferatu is a bit under par [distant nosferatu looks great though] and although I don’t see see elwind spam being a problem, it can happen, leaving Robin with no recovery during crucial moments. Someone who can exploit making Robin using his resources up though would be the reason Robin drops lower on the tier list.


Game and Watch is worse than his Brawl counterpart. I think he’s a middle tier better than Mario and Luigi, but not by much. He feels fasters overall, but I find it tough to pull off kills with him this time around. He was also a secondary of mine in Brawl. His aerials feel overall better though. D tilt is weaker, Grab game is weaker. Not like he changed much otherwise, but he does feel worse than his Brawl half.


Middle of the middle tier looks like Mario, then Luigi, then a few other characters, and Doc take the very bottom of the mid in this game. Mario takes the edge over Luigi in this one thanks to the [slightly] better D throw than Luigi and overall speed. I mean, if Mario grabs you at 0% you are guaranteed 40% and there is nothing you can do about it. Fludd seems a bit more useful this time around too. He feels very fluent in this one, and fair lands more consistently this time around.


And Luigi my main...still don't see why people are calling him low. He lost KO ability yes, his recovery isn't great either [usable, but not great. Better than recoveries such as Marth though] but his D throw is massively improved, so many leadups from it [Combos from 50+ if you get lucky with Dair spikes...sometimes. potentially better combos that Mario with the D throw but too situational]. His ground speed is a little better, his fireballs are definitely faster and usable now. Not great, but usable. His very slow in the air and easy to juggle though. Tornado is massively buffed as a kill move. It's not great for recovery [unless you use tornado 2, but then you lose it's awesome attacking prowess]. But yeah, great approaching, few moves stop a falling tornado. Heck, very few expect a rising one off the ground. If you're anything over 100% near the top of the screen and hit with the tornado, you're dead. Dair in general is faster and the spike is about 50% more likely now. I’ve scored numerous kills landing this offstage and it sets up basically any move you want if you hit the spike. Even up Bs in the air. Uppercut is weaker...but less punishment if you miss, at least. Missile sucks. Reduced to 1/10 misfire, but I think the actual misfire may be better. Use any custom over this please. Overall though he is Brawl Luigi with a better combo game and projectile in trade for killing and recovery [both which he can still do average]. He's an average character, which makes him a MIDDLE TIER. Just slightly worse than Mario due to a speed disadvantage.


Doc. Now here's the guy I think people are overrating. He's the one who I think could be low tier at the drop of a hat, as soon as I play with more characters extensively. He feels horribly sluggish compared to Mario, his D throw does not combo nearly as well, his tornado is a laughable distance for recovery and inferior to Luigi's tornado in almost all aspects, and I think Mario's dair is better than Docs. Also Mario's fair not being able to spike is saddening. Although he can kill better than Mario and his pills are a hair better...he's not great compared to Mario, or Luigi. I expected him to be better than Mario initially. I was wrong.


Low tiers are looking like maybe Doc, WFT, Ike, Olimar, and Palutena in that order to me. WFT has the most potential out of all these characters though. I just haven’t seen it yet. I would probably be convinced after playing a good WFT, but I still can’t stand those awkward hitboxes and killing power being reliant on deep breathing which is hard to pull off while being pressured. Soccer ball isn’t a great projectile either and difficult to hit with [I know about the giant ball custom, I’m going off of normal moves]. I did learn it was a meteor smash up close today though…She’s also pretty fluent movement wise. I do see potential for middle tier for sure with WFT, but I have to see good WFT players first. Maybe I’ll go look at Youtube.


Ike is just inferior to his Brawl counterpart when Killing was about all he had along with his range. Without that kill power…he feels like half a man. Everything else is still there for the most part though, exactly the same. He was a low mid before and now he’s a top low now.


Olimar is just flatout worse than his Brawl counterpart. Losing those 3 Pikmin were a major, major hit. He was my secondary in Brawl, I just can’t play him now. His Pikmin feel less durable now [Yes, I know about his custom again], and they run out far quicker with only 3 in tow. The order is nice sure, but I just really don’t like him here. His recovery is pretty easy to intercept too. Could be worse than Palutena.


Palutena for the reasons listed by everyone basically. Horribly slow tilts, horrible default specials, nothing else special aside from grab game and a great u smash. I’m sure she’s better with customs but I don’t look at customs.



Everyone else I haven’t looked into enough or seen enough. Shulk has potential though. Also I tend to have better experience with boxer/up close characters. I hate zoners, which is why I dropped Duck Hunt...anyways,I don’t think anyone is unusable in this game at all, nor do I see any bottom tiers.
Your top 7 is very interesting. I still have my doubts on Lucario being ranked as high as number 6, but I digress (I did a four-way battle at five stocks, and five stocked everybody 15 to nothing); that's pretty terrifying unless you deliver a devastating attack.

I gave every single character in the game a couple of shots--mostly compliments of Smash Run and Classic Mode (am looking to pick up all of the custom moves and am even taking them into consideration). Regardless, I think even if you take custom moves out of the equation (and especially if you do so since his customs don't help jack with his problems), Olimar would still be the worst character in the game with almost completely worthless matchups across the board. Granted, at the very least, the balancing in this game all but assures that low and bottom tiers will be very small, and those that land will have little to no answer for the big four (or even much of the higher tier). And I checked, and Olimar has absolutely no answers for the big four, and struggles mightily against anybody that can be considered for high, high-mid, and even some of the mid tier candidates. I would also throw Ganondorf into the fray, but that has more to do with him still being a sack of bricks that the big four and a number of others can gimp easily (his recovery options are still terrible), but at least customs make him more interesting, and can still be used as a counterpick. Olimar, meanwhile, I cannot think of a single favorable matchup worth acknowledging.

Anyways, here's a brief, incomplete tier list that is in-progress from what I gathered:

1. :4sheik:
2. :4zss:
3. :rosalina:
4. :4greninja:
5. :4diddy:
6. :4lucario:
7. :4sonic:
8. :4yoshi:
9. :4ness:
10.:4littlemac:
Honorable mentions: :4peach::4duckhunt::4rob::4villager::4bowser::4fox::4falcon::4pacman::4metaknight:
Dead Last: :4olimar:
 

Shaya

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I felt extra sorry for Olimar yesterday when I found out that every attack with pikmin is considered a projectile, including his smash attacks.

Falco reflector please.

Also Pikachu is probably top tier. Like, I always chuckled a little at ESAM's "3rd in the game" argument back in Brawl, but for many reasons I feel like I'd agree with that if he said the same now. God is Pikachu slept on hard and I believe Florida already knows.

He's the closest he's been to his Smash 64 iteration since then. In particular his Up Air, Up Tilt, Forward Smash (having the sweetspot at the tip) and Forward Air. Disgusting ground and attack speed. A projectile that hasn't been nerfed between Brawl and now and was ONE OF THE BEST that does close to everything; with a custom special that turns it into a paralyzer (I sure do love guaranteed kill moves on people with a landing thunder wave).
At first I really toiled at the struggles with his killing, and on wifi it can still be a chore. But both Up Smash and Forward Smash are extremely deadly; and if things are going on for too long he has dash attack killing heavy characters around 150%.

I wouldn't be surprised if he solidly beats Zero Suit Samus, and may pose a strong threat to Sheik and Greninja. The Mac and Sonic match ups seem completely one sided as well.
 
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Z'zgashi

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Problem with Pikachu is that, sure he can combo you for days when you're below 80%, but without custom moves, he cant kill until 200 unless he gets a REALLY hard read, literally nothing but usmash and fsmash kills with him. Even with custom moves, the only thing you need to watch for are his thunder jolts and smashes, so his kill setups tends to be pretty 2 dimensional in the long run. High tier at best imo, without custom moves he suffers A LOT and is most definitely only mid, maybe even low mid. If any realistic kill confirms, set ups, or frame traps pop up for him, that would do A TON for the character and easily make him at least high tier.

Also, top 10 imo is:
:4sheik: :4zss: :4greninja: :rosalina: :4diddy: :4lucario: :4sonic: :4jigglypuff: :4fox: :4yoshi:

Honroable mentions go to:
:4wario: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4marth: :4ness: :4rob:
 

ThatLunaticFeline

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Also, top 10 imo is:
:4sheik: :4zss: :4greninja: :rosalina: :4diddy: :4lucario: :4sonic: :4jigglypuff: :4fox: :4yoshi:

Honroable mentions go to:
:4wario: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4marth: :4ness: :4rob:
I agree pretty much with this list, except I'd replace Wario with Pacman. Wario's still a really great character and one who's pleasantly surprised me but Pacman has in my opinion a slightly stronger toolkit. Duck Hunt could also have a place on that Honourables list, I think.

But the top 10 is spot-on for sure.
 

~ Gheb ~

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People overrate Sheik. She's good, very good even. But there's no way she's the best character in this game. She may not even be top 5. Rosalina and Lucario are better characters. Yoshi, Diddy and Greninja are probably better. I fail to see how people can be so sure that she's better than Fox, Sonic or ZSS either.

Like, just compare her to Greninja and tell me how anybody could possibly think that Sheik is the better character. Greninja is better at virtually EVERYTHING. Greninja has better range and more disjointed hitboxes, his usmash and fair are more powerful and reliable KO moves than anything Sheik has to offer, his dash is faster, his grab is better, he has more weight and doesn't get crippled by the game's rage mechanics. There's virtually nothing that this character isn't AT LEAST as good as Sheik. Anybody who has Sheik higher than Greninja on their tier list has some serious explaining to do.

Also Pikachu is probably top tier. Like, I always chuckled a little at ESAM's "3rd in the game" argument back in Brawl, but for many reasons I feel like I'd agree with that if he said the same now. God is Pikachu slept on hard and I believe Florida already knows.

He's the closest he's been to his Smash 64 iteration since then. In particular his Up Air, Up Tilt, Forward Smash (having the sweetspot at the tip) and Forward Air. Disgusting ground and attack speed. A projectile that hasn't been nerfed between Brawl and now and was ONE OF THE BEST that does close to everything; with a custom special that turns it into a paralyzer (I sure do love guaranteed kill moves on people with a landing thunder wave).
At first I really toiled at the struggles with his killing, and on wifi it can still be a chore. But both Up Smash and Forward Smash are extremely deadly; and if things are going on for too long he has dash attack killing heavy characters around 150%.

I wouldn't be surprised if he solidly beats Zero Suit Samus, and may pose a strong threat to Sheik and Greninja. The Mac and Sonic match ups seem completely one sided as well.
Interesting. Pikachu has been a good character in Brawl and has seen absolutely no nerfs going into the new game. It's definitely possible that people are sleeping on this character once more. We'll just have to see I guess though I've always been suspicious of people who claim that Pikachu is low or lower-mid tier. Most people are just really ignorant when it comes to this character [and a handful of others] and carelessly pile him into the lower ranks alongside the likes of Doc. It really seems ridiculous when you think about it that way.

Also, top 10 imo is:
:4sheik: :4zss: :4greninja: :rosalina: :4diddy: :4lucario: :4sonic: :4jigglypuff: :4fox: :4yoshi:
I'm undecided on Jigglypuff. Have yet to see her played on top level to solidify my good impression of the character. For now I'd give the nod to Ness or the underrated Duck Hunt Duo who imho has a lot of potential that has yet to be looked into. 3 solid projectiles that can setup traps and cover approaches, coupled with great flexibility and a general lack of weaknesses seems too powerful to be disregarded. The damage output on these projectiles is real. His grab is good, all his smashes have disjointed hitboxes and his uair hits like a ****ing truck.

:059:
 

Jabejazz

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Jigglypuff is also in a weird spot for me; the lack of c-stick for proper spacing might explain why she feels really underwhelming, but even so, I feel that characters like R.O.B., Ness, Pikachu, Wario, or Peach are much more fleshed out and deserving of that spot.

The rest I can agree with.

And yeah, Sheik isn't #1.
 

Luco

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I dunno, I feel Sheik's combo game and ranged ability exceed Greninja's and I think she's better at pressure overall. While i'm not sure about her being #1 or not, I wouldn't exactly count her out. She's one of the few people I find can legitimately camp, like, pretty well. =/
 

Lenus Altair

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sheik players should approach this matchup in the Cheapest/Lamest gayest way possible
Fixed.

------------------

Been playing Palutena more this week and I have to say with customs I have trouble seeing her as bottom tier. Her up smash has to be respected, particularly as you can toss it out of throw setups and her super speed, the latter making most any commitment in the air dangerous against her.

Super speed chaining into her Upsmash, dash attack (which imo, is great,) and canceling into her aerial suite while maintiaining here momentum gives her crazy punish potential and can cut through most defensive walling.

Pretty much all of her custom options are worthwhile and give her the maneuverability to abuse her ridiculous smash attacks/throw game mixup potential and go from there. It has also been mentioned how her default setup is a campers nightmare too. Do I see her being Top tier? No, probably not even high tier with what we know now, but I'd be surprised if she deserves less then somewhere in Mid.
 
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ZombieBran

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^ Thank you.

I dunno, I feel Sheik's combo game and ranged ability exceed Greninja's and I think she's better at pressure overall. While i'm not sure about her being #1 or not, I wouldn't exactly count her out. She's one of the few people I find can legitimately camp, like, pretty well. =/
I second this.

I'm not very good at using either of the ninjas, but I feel like opposing Sheiks have more stage presence than any Greninja I've faced. Her needles really are superb and give her more mileage than Water Shuriken. She feels able to capitalize more out of a single tilt than pretty much any other character.
 
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ChikoLad

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While Robin dislikes all anti-projectile tools, Gravitational Pull doesn't reflect or otherwise hit Robin with his failed Thoron punishes.

Wait until the end.
 

Jabejazz

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I'm not very good at using either of the ninjas, but I feel like opposing Sheiks have more stage presence than any Greninja I've faced. Her needles really are superb and give her more mileage than Water Shuriken. She feels able to capitalize more out of a single tilt than pretty much any other character.
She can't reliably land a killing blow as easily as many other top characters. That alone is enough to not put her at the first spot.
 

Terotrous

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Like, just compare her to Greninja and tell me how anybody could possibly think that Sheik is the better character.
Much better projectile
Longer and more reliable combos
Superior recovery
Faster grab

Granted, Greninja does have a few upsides over her as well (disjointed smashes, ranged grab, dair), but I still think Sheik is a fair bit better overall.


She can't reliably land a killing blow as easily as many other top characters. That alone is enough to not put her at the first spot.
Uhh, Dthrow to Uair is one of the most braindead kill setups in the entire game. Fair to Bouncing Fish is also a super reliable kill setup that kills stupid early.

Go watch Denti play Sheik and see how long it takes him to get kills on people.
 
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