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Well now you've piqued my interest. What do you find troubling about Pikachu?
Character is impossible to trap and has an approach that can't be realistically reacted to. And he has KO confirms.
Haha. I guess I needed another player to point out the obvious for me to truly comprehend how it is playing against a good Pikachu. Yes, racking up damage is not too difficult but if it was then he'd be garbage. He needs to be an evasive character due to his very light weight. The difficulty in landing a KO is extremely frustrating sometimes, though.
Maybe you can guess why I'm really salty about Mario getting nerfed? =P
In the first Soul caliber Maxi and Ivy are indeed both top tier but not for reasons you think. Maxi is top because his frame data on all his buttons is vomit inducing. He was like +3 on ****ing EVERYTHING, it was disgusting. Had nothing to do with how complex he was. Once he touched a blocking opponent you STAYED blocking or you ate a vicious counter hit or launcher and lost a chunk of health. Ivy was up there due to stupid throw mix-ups that could take near half life.
Ughhhhhhhh I remember that Maxi bull**** back in the day. It was so hard to keep him out, too.
Numbers, innate character attributes...so much stupid stuff cropped up around Brawl MK. He broke that meta in half by existing.
Peach is definitely above average. Floating makes her really stupid to trap, she isn't vulnerable to edgeguards, and her movepool is generally good. And item tossing is still the best attack in the game, even if Peach's turnip pulling got nerfed.
I am one of the only other people I feel who agrees that Mario is trash xD
Mario's Fireballs were always iffy, but they were fine as is.
So fast. I hate playing against Pikachu too, cause as a Shulk main he gets in quick and deals loads of damage in combos without me being able to react with even my quicker attacks. The fortunate thing is that if he does miss an attack or I get a shieldgrab Pikachu will end up on the disadvantage cause Shulk's edgeguarding is surprisingly strong with his enormous area and range on his nair.
I'd argue Lucario's a better top 4 candidate than Greninja. Rage+Aura at even 80% is excellent, and at 120%+ is borderline broken. Aura Sphere is one of the better projectiles in the game like a quicker-charging Samus Neutral B (and with a better roll out of it too), Force Palm is devastating when it hits and Extremespeed hitting enemies at the end of its arc is great to punish a baited smash from an edgeguarding opponent. His jab combo is highly usable and does decent damage early and painful amounts late, his uair is terrifyingly quick and strong and all of his smashes are surprisingly quick and punish well out of shield. Definitely up there in my opinion.
Aura is silly in this game. Literally the X-Factor of Smash 4.
Diddy and Sonic thoI think Greninja will probably be 4th out of the big 4 (R&L, Sheik, Greninja and ZSS), from what i've heard thus far.
High pressure FLUDD imo sucks unless you run Up-B custom 1. It's really not that good for edgeguarding otherwise when you factor how much it pushes you backwards, making it only really practical if you're going offstage with it.
Minus a good move set, yeah, pretty much.
That Yoshi player is really good too. The movement from him was amazing, and those command grabs.
I never ignored the fact that creating a tier list is a lot of work. Read my other posts.
His range was overall nerfed outsIde of side B and Up B with aura.
A2ZOMG
, I'd have to disagree that Mario is bottom 5 in Smash 4. I've read your opinions here and in your excellent write-up on the Mario character boards, but I disagree that the sum of all his traits equals bottom 5.
If Mario did the same damage he did in Brawl, he would be upper mid tier maybe. If he had that AND Cape stalling AND Jab canceling in addition to that, he would be about high tier, but still not quite as good as characters like Sheik and Yoshi. Yes, physics changes technically benefit Mario's playstyle. That's not the whole picture.@
Mario definitely struggles with a lot of the same issues he had in previous Smash games (poor range, easy KO options, etc.), but I feel that Smash 4's new mechanics were a real ninja buff to Mario's game. Improved hit stun, nerfed projectiles across the board, revised ledge mechanics providing a buff to his recovery, all these have made Mario's game more effective.
Mario himself also received some buffs. FLUDD is more effective at what it was intended to do, fireballs are bigger and drop quickly and at a useful angle, and many of his normals (F-smash, F-air, D-tilt) have more practical applications. I'd also have to disagree that Mario has poor aerial movement. He's no Jigglypuff, but his ability to bob and weave with short hop fireballs and aerials is middle of the road at least. That isn't to say some of his moves didn't get nerfed (looking at you, cape), but I definitely feel the buffs outweigh the nerfs.
You seem really knowledgeable and I don't disagree that playing Mario effectively is very difficult (maybe top 5, top 10 most difficult characters to play effectively?), but I don't think Mario is getting the credit he deserves in this game. Does anybody else agree or am I alone in my thoughts on the character?
Mario's kit isn't unique. Most of his options are similar to that of characters like Pikachu and Sheik, who BLATANTLY outclass him by actually being scary in neutral, having better shield pressure that isn't vulnerable to shieldgrabs, being less terrible and even brokenly good in the negative state, and better at getting KOs and gimps.
When Mario only gets 23% for doing D-air > U-air -> B-air, and when almost everyone in the cast besides Ganondorf and Ike easily escapes Mario's D-throw->U-tilt juggles after the first U-tilt, how are you able to call Mario's combo game good? Like, you're just flat out numerically wrong by stating Mario's combos work fine. Mario neither has the frame data nor damage to facilitate good and reliable combos on most of the cast. He has to hard read you to score consecutive hits and HOPE he doesn't trade.
A 23% combo that goes into a kill move (bair) isn't exactly bad. Most of the cast would be happy to have a throw into kill move combo, period.
B-air doesn't kill. Mario is literally one of the only characters that can't kill you with aerials pre 150% unless you're extremely lightweight, meaning Mario has to land Smashes or get lucky gimps to KO you. The other character who can't kill with aerials usually is probably Pikachu, who as stated outclasses Mario ridiculously.
To put things into perspective a bit: Yoshidora got 9th / 180 at Sumabato 0 last weekend.
You mistyped PM Mewtwo.
I'd argue that FLUDD is a unique move that characters like Sheik and Pikachu have no analog for. But remember, I'm not arguing that Mario is better then the Sheiks and the Pikachus of the game. He probably isn't, and you're right about that. I just don't feel he's bottom 5. But your opinion is valid nonetheless. Good debate, you've given me a lot to think about!
