Character Competitive Impressions

[TimeSmash]

I'm of the opinion that Peach is the character we're all sleeping on.

From my experience as a Rosalina player, Peach's float pretty much invalidates Luma in the matchup and I think she's perhaps the best way to defeat Rosalinas. Luma can't stay still in the air unless you spam attacks to keep him floating, and that's just begging to get punished. Grounded Lumas can be floated over really easily and Peach wrecks Luma the same way Sheik and Greninja do.

I honestly think Peach is high tier in this game. She's essentially only been buffed from Brawl in terms of her game plan (slower turnips are a thing but Peach players have discovered ATs to get around that), and the environment is much kinder to her in this game where her problematic opponents are nerfed (MK and Falco) or removed (Snake). Sheik and Lucario are going to be problematic but I do think she's one of the more viable characters outside of the Sheik, Rosaluma, ZSS, Lucario and Greninja fivesome.

AND Ledge cancelled turnips! I almost forgot. And Peach Bomber like destorys Luma. Badly. She has a lot of interesting tools this time around, and I predict there will just be more glitchy stuff with her when as the game progresses. Mr. Saturn also pretty much just breaks shields now instead of eating them, so there's that as well

 

[tm730]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtqPHo0UZv8

Ending of game 1 is a perfect showcase of why Lucario is so dumb in this game.

this makes me happy

 

[InfinityCollision]

Bull**** character design makes you happy?

Lucario's aura mechanic would be fine if his recovery was subpar, but considering his general durability and the way upb scales with aura it just ends up rewarding the player for taking damage. That's stupid no matter how you slice it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Being able to kill half the cast at 60% sure is appealing though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Lemme be the first to say tero is not the voice of Yoshi discussion and take what he says with a grain of salt. Take what Gashi, or even non-Yoshi mains like Gheb or Shaya say about him over Tero.

Anyways I forget which page after going through 15 or so and seeing Shaya/Gashi btfo tero, but somebody mentioned how Yoshi was impossible to deal with/broken.
What I find funny is people have no idea how he was in brawl then I guess, cause he's practically almost the same character outside of finally getting OoS options, less eggtoss jumps, two changes in moves (DA and Usmash) and losing DJCs. Otherwise his mobility feels the same his KO options are the same outside of Fsmash being able to completely whiff if the enemy is living in his nose, and hell, he even lost 3 points in weight with Ike taking his spot. (not that I'm complaining he's still heavy)

Guess it's more of the fact he stayed the same with little to no nerfs compared to other characters, Ledge mechanics with ledgehogging being out and OoS options just made people realize that Yoshi actually is a character in the Smash series not including amsa in melee despite people like Vectorman doing well with Melee Yoshi too.

Edit: Oh I remember now, it was somebody mentioning how he was a Snake/Olimar Hybrid.
He's not that at all, Yoshi was his own horrible crappy monster in Melee/Brawl since he couldn't Jump OoS and definitely can't camp like Olimar/Snake could've.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

^ Its why I said before I felt Yoshi would take a dive in peoples opinions.
He was my main in Brawl and I couldn't feel enough difference to cement in my head that it's not just shock.
But given that I also believe I may be being over critical out of that bias and he really is that good.

 

[tm730]

Bull**** character design makes you happy?

Lucario's aura mechanic would be fine if his recovery was subpar, but considering his general durability and the way upb scales with aura it just ends up rewarding the player for taking damage. That's stupid no matter how you slice it.

no seeing sheik get wrecked makes me happy

 

[NairWizard]

I'm of the opinion that Peach is the character we're all sleeping on.

From my experience as a Rosalina player, Peach's float pretty much invalidates Luma in the matchup and I think she's perhaps the best way to defeat Rosalinas. Luma can't stay still in the air unless you spam attacks to keep him floating, and that's just begging to get punished. Grounded Lumas can be floated over really easily and Peach wrecks Luma the same way Sheik and Greninja do.

I honestly think Peach is high tier in this game. She's essentially only been buffed from Brawl in terms of her game plan (slower turnips are a thing but Peach players have discovered ATs to get around that), and the environment is much kinder to her in this game where her problematic opponents are nerfed (MK and Falco) or removed (Snake). Sheik and Lucario are going to be problematic but I do think she's one of the more viable characters outside of the Sheik, Rosaluma, ZSS, Lucario and Greninja fivesome.

To win vs. Peach as Rosalina you need to change the style of your gameplay. You can't rely on walling her out with Luma, but you can wall her out with large, disjointed aerials and smashes. Think Marth vs. Peach in Brawl, but tone it down a bit from that because side-b can actually get through to you sometimes. Rosalina has a lot of range on her b-air, n-air, f-air, and dash attack, and with Luma by her side she has tons on her f-smash and d-smash too. That range is your primary weapon against Peach.

In some matchups it is better not to separate from Luma. That's true in this case. Peach is just going to ignore Luma/float over him, so you should use the additional range and hitboxes that he provides when he's close to you instead of sending him toward Peach.

Also, Peach is super floaty (obviously), so Rosalina's up-air and up-tilt are nice tools.


Not to say that Peach is bad -- in fact, she's great, and the fact that her dash attack kills made her a lot better in this game compared to her Brawl incarnation -- but I don't think she trumps Rosalina. It's even at the very worst.

 

[Jabejazz]

It's not an awful move, but it's a great move today and almost certainly won't be 3 months from now.

It already isn't that great of a move today. It's a completely useless move in neutral (minus few matchups), the situation where we need it the most.

If anything, gordos are ludicrously over rated. Haven't played enough with the alternate side-Bs to make a solid claim about them, but I don't think they're that much better, if at all.

Topspin is probably gimmicky at best, I have a sliver of hope for Bouncing, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Damn you, Jabe. Stop agreeing with the man. :V We don't need to compile even more damning evidence that a move of our character is booty. Bad enough that I already conceded to prospects being dim.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

Edit: Oh I remember now, it was somebody mentioning how he was a Snake/Olimar Hybrid.
He's not that at all, Yoshi was his own horrible crappy monster in Melee/Brawl since he couldn't Jump OoS and definitely can't camp like Olimar/Snake could've.

Let me clarify the explanation. He's stronger than most characters in this game for similar reasons why Snake and Olimar were stronger than most characters in Brawl. And this in no way is meant to imply he will remain as effective as other top tiers. The reasons why he's clearly above average in this game however:

Strong defensive game (not completely unlike Brawl Olimar, especially when other character defensive games got nerfed), and numerically high damage per hit (the reason why Snake was competitive). His projectiles slow the game down a lot, even if they're not actually super great in neutral, partly because you can't really swat them, and also because they have strong reward and setup potential on hit. Like both characters, he doesn't actually have a real offensive game for the most part. His ability to play footsies is hindered considerably by the lack of a quick grab in particular, so if he's behind, he still is going to struggle a lot to actually catch up against someone who insists on laming him out.

You can't for instance strictly lame out Fox completely, because you aren't blocking all his lasers at long range, and because Fox always has the threat of dashgrab when you're on the ground that you have to read to avoid.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't understand why everyone's saying Little Mac's so good. Literally every character (including himself) has a 0-death against him. I even once got creative with Olimar on a 0-death. Ike's against him is just a back throw, waiting for him to double-jump to you, and then f-smashing.

It's not a 0-death if the opponent can act at any point. Mac has the option to airdodge, recover low, etc.

You can gain an advantageous situation by throwing Mac offstage, but it's far from a guaranteed kill.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't wanna add to why Gordos aren't really much but at first, I was an alien to it and I had no idea on how to deal with, but I found out (pretty late) that you can actually swat them back

I don't understand why everyone's saying Little Mac's so good. Literally every character (including himself) has a 0-death against him. I even once got creative with Olimar on a 0-death. Ike's against him is just a back throw, waiting for him to double-jump to you, and then f-smashing.

Just saying. Little Mac is good but not dumb good. He's not top tier at all

but based on what you're saying, I'm not sure if this Mac you're describing remembers that his down b does stuff

 

[Central IL Smash]

Ike is bottom tier, imo. Just too slow.

 

[Terotrous]

Just saying. Little Mac is good but not dumb good.

Having armor on all your smashes and having a one-hit KO that you can combo into is definitely dumb.

The thing with Little Mac is I don't think there's any room to debate that his upsides are as strong as any character in the game. The question is whether or not these are offset by his also significant downsides. There's definitely room for debate there, but historically, bad recovery has not kept otherwise amazing characters from being top tier. If they completely dominate the onstage game it doesn't matter much what happens when you get them offstage, because you won't.

 

[Berserker.]

Having armor on all your smashes and having a one-hit KO that you can combo into is definitely dumb.

The thing with Little Mac is I don't think there's any room to debate that his upsides are as strong as any character in the game. The question is whether or not these are offset by his also significant downsides. There's definitely room for debate there, but historically, bad recovery has not kept otherwise great characters from being top tier.

I think you need to look at the bigger picture. Like, don't fixate your eyes on the ground and look up. I'm not saying that his air game makes him ****. I still think he's legit but he has glaring drawbacks

I won't tackle tier list discussion

 

[Terotrous]

I think you need to look at the bigger picture. Like, don't fixate your eyes on the ground and look up. I'm not saying that his air game makes him ****. I still think he's legit but he has glaring drawbacks

Falco has glaring drawbacks in Melee. He's still easily one of the best because the strengths he has are so strong. Simply pointing out that a character has some downsides does not prove that they are not top tier.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Having armor on all your smashes and having a one-hit KO that you can combo into is definitely dumb.

The thing with Little Mac is I don't think there's any room to debate that his upsides are as strong as any character in the game. The question is whether or not these are offset by his also significant downsides. There's definitely room for debate there, but historically, bad recovery has not kept otherwise amazing characters from being top tier. If they completely dominate the onstage game it doesn't matter much what happens when you get them offstage, because you won't.

His downsides are pretty heavy tho... Up B sourspots are absolute hell. Also he's not exactly hard to get off stage.

Also I'm wondering about the recovery point about historical top tiers. Idk 64 too well, but the top 3 seem to have great recoveries. Melee, well Falco ofc, and sheik to an extent. Marths recovery isn't bad, just alright. I guess falcon too but w/e. Also worth mentioning how puff, peach, and fox all have good or great recoveries. Brawl, Oli yeah and Sopo? Not the best we'll versed on brawl here. PM, everyone's recovery is OP

In short, recoveries are very important. Having a poor one isn't a death sentence, but it certainly isn't good.

Pfffff... edit: especially in this game where edgeplay is big

New edit: quick thing on Falco. He can get away with his ledgeplay because he is an absolute god in neutral. Some (myself included) say he is the best on neutral by far. Mac idk about that. His neutral is damn good, especially on FD, but footsies being good and platform play being good don't really correlate.

 

[Terotrous]

His downsides are pretty heavy tho... Up B sourspots are absolute hell. Also he's not exactly hard to get off stage.

Also I'm wondering about the recovery point about historical top tiers. Idk 64 too well, but the top 3 seem to have great recoveries. Melee, well Falco ofc, and sheik to an extent. Marths recovery isn't bad, just alright. I guess falcon too but w/e. Also worth mentioning how puff, peach, and fox all have good or great recoveries. Brawl, Oli yeah and Sopo? Not the best we'll versed on brawl here. PM, everyone's recovery is OP

In short, recoveries are very important. Having a poor one isn't a death sentence, but it certainly isn't good.

You did a pretty good job summarizing a lot of good characters with bad recoveries (though Melee is missing Ganon, whose recovery is also quite bad).

I think you can actually make a strong case that Olimar's recovery (in Brawl) is actually worse than Little Mac's recovery.

The thing with Smash is that while recovery is definitely important, it's not top priority. What you can do on-stage is what counts. With a character like Melee Kirby, sure, his recovery is amazing, but who cares? Let him come back, he can't do anything when he gets back. Recovery basically just lets you live longer, if you're not dangerous when you're alive you're still not a good character. Similarly, if you're supremely dangerous when you're alive, you can still be a big threat even if you don't live that long.

That's not to say that Little Mac's recovery definitely doesn't matter. It might matter. But right now it's too early to say it makes him a bad or so-so character because so far Little Macs are overcoming that weakness and putting in wins. We can only make that call once someone proves in tournament that it makes some of his matchups totally awful.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Ike is bottom tier, imo. Just too slow.

Speaking of Ike, I'd like to see some analysis and discussion on him. Particularly, why most say he is overall nerfed; why he is a popular candidate for bottom tier; what awaits him in the future of competitive Smash as the metagame advances?

Did his loss of jab canceling and power really cripple his metagame that much, despite his other buffed attributes, like increased movement and attack speed? Or is it simply because other veterans received more significant buffs, especially the ones that were below him in the SSBB tiers?

Just curious. ^-^

 

[KlefkiHolder]

You did a pretty good job summarizing a lot of good characters with bad recoveries (though Melee is missing Ganon, whose recovery is also quite bad).

I think you can actually make a strong case that Olimar's recovery (in Brawl) is actually worse than Little Mac's recovery.

The thing with Smash is that while recovery is definitely important, it's not top priority. What you can do on-stage is what counts. With a character like Melee Kirby, sure, his recovery is amazing, but who cares? Let him come back, he can't do anything when he gets back. Recovery basically just lets you live longer, if you're not dangerous when you're alive you're still not a good character. Similarly, if you're supremely dangerous when you're alive, you can still be a big threat even if you don't live that long.

That's not to say that Little Mac's recovery definitely doesn't matter. It might matter. But right now it's too early to say it makes him a bad or so-so character because so far Little Macs are overcoming that weakness and putting in wins. We can only make that call once someone proves in tournament that it makes some of his matchups totally awful.

So... In defense of Little Mac, he has an amazing neutral game, and to rove that neutral is what matters, we're going to compare him to one of the worst characters in the series, one currently ranked below Pichu, an intentional joke character?

Something's not right...

(Also Kirby's recovery isn't too good in melee cuz he's easy to edgeguard and up b is linear, slow compared to something like Dolphin Slash, and predictable.)

 

[Jabejazz]

Damn you, Jabe. Stop agreeing with the man. :V We don't need to compile even more damning evidence that a move of our character is booty. Bad enough that I already conceded to prospects being dim.

Smooth Criminal

To be clear I do not think the move is bad. It just doesn't bring us anything amazing. Gordos are decent for edgeguarding options.

Problem lies in the fact that TripleD is already good at that, and that's not what gordo should've been for.

If Bouncing Gordo happens to be of help in the neutral (which I doubt), then there's still hope for our side B.

 

[Terotrous]

So... In defense of Little Mac, he has an amazing neutral game, and to rove that neutral is what matters, we're going to compare him to one of the worst characters in the series, one currently ranked below Pichu, an intentional joke character?

Something's not right...

(Also Kirby's recovery isn't too good in melee cuz he's easy to edgeguard and up b is linear, slowslow compared to something like Dolphin Slash, and predictable.)

You can use Mewtwo if you prefer. The point is the same. There's lots of examples of good characters with bad recoveries, and bad characters with good recoveries. A good recovery won't make a bad character good and generally vice versa.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Jabejazz

Bouncing Gordo gives us excellent stage control. Like, almost on par with some of the better zoning characters in this game. It's especially good on platforms, like on Battlefield. These Gordos also have different trajectories kinda like the regular Gordos (one almost goes a full 180 degrees bouncing back and forth; I think it was side smash input?). The downside? Once somebody pings the Gordo, we totally lose it. The opponent now gets to use this amazing asset against us.

Soooooooo, yeah.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of Ike, I'd like to see some analysis and discussion on him. Particularly, why most say he is overall nerfed; why he is a popular candidate for bottom tier; what awaits him in the future of competitive Smash as the metagame advances?

Did his loss of jab canceling and power really cripple his metagame that much, despite his other buffed attributes, like increased movement and attack speed? Or is it simply because other veterans received more significant buffs, especially the ones that were below him in the SSBB tiers?

Just curious. ^-^

idk, I think Ike is lower mid tier, and then customs have some strong potential to make him good. His movepool isn't AWFUL. It just kinda...isn't as rewarding as it should be at times. His midrange is not too bad. His tilts have good range, while a bit slow are pretty safe, and all deal good damage. Jab still does okay damage, and changes to airdodges and edges are beneficial to Ike and make his KO setups less gimmicky/situational. His low percent damage building is slightly better in this game due to hitstun changes making low% throw and N-air followups a bit better.

Still vulnerable to camping, juggles, and lacks good edgeguard options for the most part (especially without customs). He's a more well rounded character in this game, though his reward is a bit on the low side outside of some decent KO potential with aerials and U-smash.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Speaking of Ike, I'd like to see some analysis and discussion on him. Particularly, why most say he is overall nerfed; why he is a popular candidate for bottom tier; what awaits him in the future of competitive Smash as the metagame advances?

Did his loss of jab canceling and power really cripple his metagame that much, despite his other buffed attributes, like increased movement and attack speed? Or is it simply because other veterans received more significant buffs, especially the ones that were below him in the SSBB tiers?

Personally, it's the way that he has no actual approach options outside of Nair in a game where he has to approach, didn't actually gain movement speed relative to the cast and did not get faster attacks, the fact that his only usable tilt in neutral is dtilt, and the fact that he has no KO power onstage unless your opponent's an absolute dip****.

Add to that the reality of him still being incredibly gimpable in a game where offstage play is more important than ever and the loss of the ability to catch the ledge with backwards Aether. Sure, custom moves add more power, but they don't solve his problems and they sure as hell don't make up for his defaults being trash.

 

[Xuan Wu]

idk, I think Ike is lower mid tier, and then customs have some strong potential to make him good. His movepool isn't AWFUL. It just kinda...isn't as rewarding as it should be at times. His midrange is not too bad. His tilts have good range, while a bit slow are pretty safe, and all deal good damage. Jab still does okay damage, and changes to airdodges and edges are beneficial to Ike and make his KO setups less gimmicky/situational. His low percent damage building is slightly better in this game due to hitstun changes making low% throw and N-air followups a bit better.

Still vulnerable to camping, juggles, and lacks good edgeguard options for the most part (especially without customs). He's a more well rounded character in this game, though his reward is a bit on the low side outside of some decent KO potential with aerials and U-smash.

I see. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's just that I noticed some are quick to write him off as utter trash for reasons I have a hard time seeing, especially since I figure the new ledge mechanics that dealt away with edge-hogging would be of more benefit for his Quick Draw recovery.

He is definitely far from a perfect character, but I don't consider his design to be inherently flawed to the point that he's absolute trash either. Of course, that doesn't mean he can't be the worst character, and it wouldn't bother me if he is. There always has to be someone at the bottom.

^-^

 

[The Real Gamer]

Ike's main problem is that he isn't Shulk.

 

[Berserker.]

Ike's main problem is that he isn't Shulk.

Er... Sorry for being stupid as always but can you clarify?

 

[san.]

I've experimented with him extensively over the past few weeks and he seems fine to me. High level Ike play in Brawl rarely was gimped and I believe this to be around the same in this game. Reverse aether can make it back to the stage at farther distances than the old reverse aether can snap to the ledge. He has good rewards from throws and his best spacing tool of nair combos into his other attacks easily. A better double jump and good weight is also helpful.

Tilts were situational in Ike's play and it seems to continue now, don't really like using dtilt all too often. I feel Ike has changed from a surprisingly close-ranged character to a solid mid-range, and getting kills seems easier than ever, really.

 

[Xuan Wu]

All I know is that Shulk's attack range is ridiculous, especially when his blade extends, enough to outrange even Ike's attacks. I'm not too sure of how his damage output and knockback compares to Ike, though.

^-^

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I don't feel the same weaknesses I did with Ike in Brawl. Stuff like Forward air looks shorter, but is much better without it being much landing lag than most Sm4sh aerials. Otherwise he really only struggled at top level against the short campy characters (incl. MK), and eh, probably isn't structurally deficient against Sheik, Rosalina, Yoshi and all like he was against those now "nerfed" problems. I generally trust san's impressions and he hasn't given any that seem to hint towards a weaker Ike, so when everything else is looking positive for him by my impressions and I'm hearing stuff that makes me very very fearful in terms of his customs.

He moves around a stage better than before and that was also a bit of a critical weakness. If his aerials still have transcended priority like in Brawl, he's ****ing amazing.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hammer > Giant Yellow Whiffle Sword



I kid, I kid. Ike is cool. He has a sword that makes smoothies out of anybody above him (I call his Uair "The Blender."). He's also pretty dangerous on the ground, too.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Signia]

I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.

My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland.

Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.

If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B).

Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then.

Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.

The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.

I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk.

Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf.

Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!

 

[Luco]

I see. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's just that I noticed some are quick to write him off as utter trash for reasons I have a hard time seeing, especially since I figure the new ledge mechanics that dealt away with edge-hogging would be of more benefit for his Quick Draw recovery.

He is definitely far from a perfect character, but I don't consider his design to be inherently flawed to the point that he's absolute trash either. Of course, that doesn't mean he can't be the worst character, and it wouldn't bother me if he is. There always has to be someone at the bottom.

^-^

You literally seem like the nicest guy here right now. Good stuff sir! =D

@ Terotrous : You're assuming Mac's only issue is his offstage, which is blatantly not the case. Comparing Mac to brawl Olimar is flawed; and I can't buy into the 'Mac is top tier because ooh ground game so stronk' argument.

You see, the thing about Olimar in Brawl was that, much like current little mac, Olimar was a beast on stage. Olimar had so many options which usually made approaching him hell for the vast majority of the cast. The thing was, Olimar's aerial game was fine in many cases too. His yellow pikmin (I think it was yellow that had this property) had massive priority versus like everything and he actually had a lot of range on much of these aerials. His Uair was a fantastic juggling tool with just about any pikmin and his grab game perfectly combo-ed into many of his aerials (that Dthrow into Uair combo made anyone want to walk offstage and SD right there and then).

Mac... has none of the above aerial attributes. Unlike (Brawl) Olimar, Mac gets someone into the air and then waits for them to get back on the ground. More importantly, if mac himself is chucked above the stage, he can't contest people who win aerial battles or are just generally good at juggling. I tend to see the meta game in three major sections, in which each particular state of gameplay is divided into: Onstage, aerial and offstage. Mac is fantastic at close and midrange onstage game. However some characters such as Sheik can contest him in long range onstage, and then STACKED on this is the fact he does so very little in the air and offstage. If he's losing 2/3's of the game if not more, then what people are saying about his match-ups being polarising make sense. Mac is a beast at close range and is fine there; but if you're playing a character who can get him into the air and keep him there or otherwise have massive advantages in this part of the game; then Mac is going to have a really hard time. And the thing is, most of who we're currently perceiving to be top and high tier will be able to take advantage of these weaknesses.

Mac isn't a bad character and i'm not disputing that. But a character that loses to/has trouble versus the majority of high and top tier will most likely be barred from those top positions (see: King DDD in Brawl).

EDIT: LOL part of an old post I deleted came back to haunt me. Edited that out, but in case you were wondering, it was that I recently KOed a villager who was at 6% about 15 seconds into the game by reflecting his tree back at him.

T'was sexy. <3

 

[Xuan Wu]

I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.

My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland.

Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.

If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B).

Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then.

Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.

The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.

I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk.

Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf.

Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!

I knew I've seen this somewhere before! It's all verbatim. This was about Melee Ganondorf, right? ^-^

Anyway, seeing as a tier list is released every once in a while, I wonder how annoying it would be for the group involved in making these lists to account for the changes made to each character via character-specific patches released by Nintendo. We could probably start to see more drastic fluctuations in character movement through the tiers than usual.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Er... Sorry for being stupid as always but can you clarify?

A friend of mine who was a longtime Ike and Snake player in Brawl plays Shulk in this game. He once described Shulk as a safer Ike plus Monado arts. It's not 1:1, but it's a decent comparison and their movesets have much in common. Shulk has better range than S4 Ike, I believe at least some of his attacks come out faster, his offstage game is better, and he's got better options for putting out hitboxes in neutral.

That was before he started playing around with customs though, so I'm not sure what he thinks of Ike these days. I know he's been playing both but favoring Shulk.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I am a troll, please disregard me and any opinion I might have at any point in the future

Thanks for letting us know.

 

[Luco]

Ahh I remember that, actually. Wasn't palutena changed slightly over the recent patch?

I swear they're looking at our discussions and being like "These characters need to be buffed." =P

Palutena needs more buffs regardless.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

All I know is that Shulk's attack range is ridiculous, especially when his blade extends, enough to outrange even Ike's attacks. I'm not too sure of how his damage output and knockback compares to Ike, though.

^-^

Ike has higher damage and knockback.
If Shulk wants higher/comparable knockback he sacrifices damage and vise versa.
Ike & Shulk feel similar to me but it didn't seem the same vibe was received by other Shulk players.
Just base Shulk is faster like a Link/Toon Link vibe. Of course Shulk has Monado flexibility, a stronger counter and his Up B kills.