Character Competitive Impressions

[Z'zgashi]

Can everyone who actually tried out every single character with every single custom move please raise your hand.

*raises hand*

 

[The Real Gamer]

I have all of Zard's customs.

That means I can talk about Charizard right?

 

[Muster]

Can everyone who actually tried out every single character with every single custom move please raise your hand.

Just you Ninjalink?

YEA THE REST OF YALL NEED TO SIT THE HELL DOWN

I have obtained and tried all custom moves.
It was an arduous process that tested my patience constantly, and got me everything else in the game on the way.
Does that mean i can stand up?

I have all of Zard's customs.

That means I can talk about Charizard right?

What are your favorite moves for zard? I can't decide which ones i like besides dragon rush for side B

 

[RWB]

Eh, we can discuss Palutena's customs and the Mii Customs somewhat.

 

[Yokoblue]

I tested all customs moves for the character I'm talking about or maining. I didnt get Luigi's custom move sry

 

[Jigglymaster]

Eh, we can discuss Palutena's customs and the Mii Customs somewhat.

WELL speaking of that, Mii Brawler's customs are rather fantastic if I do say so myself.

His piston punch (Up B 3) is basically his best move and I think one of the better moves in this game. It has very little startup animation, it can be done out of shield, you can combo into it from u-air, it KILLS, it does everything! I know I've been posting this vid everywhere but this character is not to be slept on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmcW2pc6Xtw

The move essentially gimps characters off the top of the stage as it travels upwards, carrying the opponent up with them, the final blow has a knockback strong enough to kill players at the top at relatively low percents. It's very practical too as he can easily put the opponent in a situation like that after a down throw which combos into u-air which combos into the Piston Punch.

His next best custom move is his Feint Jump (Down B 2). It can be ledge cancelled, it increases his recovery tenfold giving him superb horizontal recovery as well as 2 wall jumps. Testing it out, I could do 4 b-airs off the stage into the blast zone, using both my jumps already, then can make it back by using the Feint Jump, its THAT good. Lets not mention that he has 0 problem getting back to the ground. As long as he has feint jump, you can almost always juke your opponent out and get to the ground safely. Basically gets you out of any bad situation ever.

Now finally lets talk about some of his other attributes. His get up invincibility from the ledge is STUPID. If you try to attack or grab this man while he's doing a standard getup from the ledge you cannot touch him at all, and if you keep trying to he'll just use his piston punch and beat whatever it is that you are trying to do. That's right, his invincibility goes on long enough for him to shield or do piston punch making it near impossible to punish him from the ledge. The only way to beat it is if you predict what he'll do after his invincibility frames are over.

I should also mention that using a short/skinny Mii will give you these attributes

+ Faster Run Speed
+ Higher Jumps
+ Less cool down on all attacks (perfect for combos)
- Less Range (includes specials)
- Lighter (You die 1% earlier its hardly noticeable)
- Weaker (Again, only does like 1% less, hardly noticeable)

In the end, short mii's are generally the way to go. If I were to talk about the downsides to this character I'd say he has trouble killing if he's passed the point where he can combo into his Piston Punch. His other killing moves are his Onslaught (Side B 1, Falcon's Raptor Boost) and F-smash. Both of which are rather slow and have a lot of cooldown. U-smash and D-smash work but they're rather weak.

Without a doubt Brawler is the best of the 3 Mii's and I'm fairly confident he's at least top 15 in the game. Though at the moment I could see a lot of you disagreeing with me, because well, nobody has really played him. Hopefully people stop sleeping on this character and give him a go.

 

[Random4811]

What do you guys think of Pacman? I was playing against him as Marth, and although the first two matches he kicked my butt, I discovered that his Side B had lower priority than several of my moves, and from there his cookie crumbled. So where would you put Pacman and why?

 

[Conda]

What do you guys think of Pacman? I was playing against him as Marth, and although the first two matches he kicked my butt, I discovered that his Side B had lower priority than several of my moves, and from there his cookie crumbled. So where would you put Pacman and why?

Nothing he has is overpowered, but he has ingredients. He's a creativity-based character, similar to Ness and Duck Hunt. It's up to players to show him off, as traditional fighting styles won't show him off too well.

I think he has trouble killing, and his grab game seems to be pretty crippling (shields are dependable when fighting against him, cause he can't reliably come in for a grab).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shulk doesnt have a damn quick move in his body.
N-air isn't fast its just auto-cancels. Characters with fast start-up are a pain in the ass since the reality is Shulks options just don't

WELL speaking of that, Mii Brawler's customs are rather fantastic if I do say so myself.

His piston punch (Up B 3) is basically his best move and I think one of the better moves in this game. It has very little startup animation, it can be done out of shield, you can combo into it from u-air, it KILLS, it does everything! I know I've been posting this vid everywhere but this character is not to be slept on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmcW2pc6Xtw

The move essentially gimps characters off the top of the stage as it travels upwards, carrying the opponent up with them, the final blow has a knockback strong enough to kill players at the top at relatively low percents. It's very practical too as he can easily put the opponent in a situation like that after a down throw which combos into u-air which combos into the Piston Punch.

His next best custom move is his Feint Jump (Down B 2). It can be ledge cancelled, it increases his recovery tenfold giving him superb horizontal recovery as well as 2 wall jumps. Testing it out, I could do 4 b-airs off the stage into the blast zone, using both my jumps already, then can make it back by using the Feint Jump, its THAT good. Lets not mention that he has 0 problem getting back to the ground. As long as he has feint jump, you can almost always juke your opponent out and get to the ground safely. Basically gets you out of any bad situation ever.

Now finally lets talk about some of his other attributes. His get up invincibility from the ledge is STUPID. If you try to attack or grab this man while he's doing a standard getup from the ledge you cannot touch him at all, and if you keep trying to he'll just use his piston punch and beat whatever it is that you are trying to do. That's right, his invincibility goes on long enough for him to shield or do piston punch making it near impossible to punish him from the ledge. The only way to beat it is if you predict what he'll do after his invincibility frames are over.

I should also mention that using a short/skinny Mii will give you these attributes

+ Faster Run Speed
+ Higher Jumps
+ Less cool down on all attacks (perfect for combos)
- Less Range (includes specials)
- Lighter (You die 1% earlier its hardly noticeable)
- Weaker (Again, only does like 1% less, hardly noticeable)

In the end, short mii's are generally the way to go. If I were to talk about the downsides to this character I'd say he has trouble killing if he's passed the point where he can combo into his Piston Punch. His other killing moves are his Onslaught (Side B 1, Falcon's Raptor Boost) and F-smash. Both of which are rather slow and have a lot of cooldown. U-smash and D-smash work but they're rather weak.

Without a doubt Brawler is the best of the 3 Mii's and I'm fairly confident he's at least top 15 in the game. Though at the moment I could see a lot of you disagreeing with me, because well, nobody has really played him. Hopefully people stop sleeping on this character and give him a go.

Nope I agree really feeling my Don Cornelius Brawler.
While Feint Jump will be the staple, Foot Flurry isnt bad either.
Shot Put has quite the Knockback, and well Ultimate uppercut while I thought it was decent, is kind of underwhelming. If it doesn't sweetspot it might as well not exist. Can use it to accelerate some damage early into the stock but eh.
His Back air is fairly potent itself, D-air meteors. So He's fairly lethal anywhere he goes. It wont work on all characters from what I've seen so far but you can use the F-air to drag them down into a dtilt or whatever like other multi-hit moves and dtilt just sets up utilts,u-airs, piston punch, ultimate uppercut. So on some chars you can go F-air, dtilt, u-tilt,u-air, piston if you read it all.

I just think the lack of For Glory is making him get ignored when he shouldn't.
As far as the other two go, I think Gunner also might excel but again lack of exposure and Brawler is the most hyped within the 3 so Gunners strengths aren't being spoken off, that F-air is great.

 

[Berserker.]

I have customs of over half the cast of this game but I only talk about whoever I feel like talking about

Oh right. Link's power bow kills. Idk how it does against shields. I use it for edgeguarding. His boomerang (not gale boomerang) is my favorite only because I wanna feel like I'm playing as Melee or 64 Link. I'd use shocking spin attack for the lulz for nostalgia but if I were serious, I'd stick to normal spin attack or that wind spin attack. I use giant bombs because they don't blow up right away when you throw it at no one

Edit: Wait no. I use shocking spin attack

64 Link, Hooray

 

[epicgordan]

I have all the custom moves in the entire game. I'm thinking about doing a heavily detailed report on how each and every character in the game plays, what I recommend to be the best movesets (as well as some backup sets), and ranking each and every one of these characters based on their potential matchup potential. I will cover all of them in order based on the overall CSS so that I won't have to worry about losing my place.

And just to brag a bit for the heck of it, I also have all the custom outfits, and all of the misc. trophies. I only have two more challenges--and by extension, 3 more trophies, 13 hats, and Classic Mode on 9.0 difficulty to go before I can safely call it 100% complete. Anybody have any tips on tilting the odds of the custom drops giving away said hats would be appreciated.

In the meantime, I'm going to explore all the options with every character in the entire game. Mario will be my first, and I'll give you my findings tomorrow.

 

[Luco]

I... can't buy into the villager hype.

He's got lloid rocket which is slow moving and although sure it forces you to do something, that doesn't necessarily put you in a bad spot. Many characters have reflectors that make Villager's life very difficult.

His up close game feels weak to me. He has a few nice tilts and aerials that come out quickly but even with his ranged Uair, Dair and Fair, it feels like many characters just beat him outright in the air with very little issue.

He has a rather strong offstage game that feels hard to disrupt, even with the balloons, yet he's rather lightweight, so this trait doesn't do much to increase his survivability.

Finally his grab is very laggy if he misses, it's not fun at all.

I understand Timber counter is actually amazing but i'd like to know if it's going to be THAT much of a game changer that it rockets (Ha!) him like a full tier or two above where I feel he should be?

For posterity, not that this has any bearing on my case, I reflected a Villager tree that killed him at 6% (and it wasn't close either; he would have died at 0%), actually done it twice now. It's a good laugh

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have all the custom moves in the entire game. I'm thinking about doing a heavily detailed report on how each and every character in the game plays, what I recommend to be the best movesets (as well as some backup sets), and ranking each and every one of these characters based on their potential matchup potential. I will cover all of them in order based on the overall CSS so that I won't have to worry about losing my place.

And just to brag a bit for the heck of it, I also have all the custom outfits, and all of the misc. trophies. I only have two more challenges--and by extension, 3 more trophies, 13 hats, and Classic Mode on 9.0 difficulty to go before I can safely call it 100% complete. Anybody have any tips on tilting the odds of the custom drops giving away said hats would be appreciated.

In the meantime, I'm going to explore all the options with every character in the entire game. Mario will be my first, and I'll give you my findings tomorrow.

I already have explored every character in the entire game a lot and have personal preferred sets built with the entire cast. I even started a massive write-up on the topic of recommendations and got through most of the cast, but I didn't finish or post it as I realized that there's just too much subtlety for me to make such recommendations without seriously overlooking options or just missing the match-up subtlety a lot of stuff has. Like I went through Fox and thought his no hit up special was just obviously better than the other two lousy attacking options and that his Falco style blaster was the best of bad choices. Then further exploration showed that the power blaster on Fox is actually really good and that "Twisting Fox" has a variety of actually really strong offensive applications, stuff I wasn't going to find on my own. Likewise, on Falco, Reflector Void instantly destroys Villager's tree and Pac-Man's Fire Hydrant which is different from every other reflector and kinda a huge deal for the utility of the move (Reflector Void is actually ridiculously good, despite Accele-Reflector seeming just straight better at first). I came to realize that there's just no way to give truly useful information like that at this stage of the metagame; that kind of thing will have to be a comprehensive community project many months down the line once we know a lot more than we do now. I do think I'm pretty knowledgable overall about the customs and have explored every last option with every character with some detail (just not enough, it's not even possible to give enough at this point); I feel like all the work I've put into learning about customs and the way I still feel like I have a ton to learn is a sign of the robustness of the system.

However, I will help out a bit and drop the movesets I've found strong with every character which some people might find interesting anyway:

Spoiler: custom movesets

Mario: 2313
Luigi: 2311
Peach: 3312
Bowser: 1211 (against rushdown)/2311(against zoning)
Yoshi: 3312
Rosalina & Luma: 2311
Bowser Jr.: 2113
Wario: 1211
Mr. Game & Watch: 3321
Donkey Kong: 1132
Diddy Kong: 1111 (Diddy's customs are AWFUL)
Link: 2111
Zelda: 3212
Sheik: 1111 (not bad options, just think default is overall best)
Ganondorf: 2322
Toon Link: 1233 (VERY match-up dependent though)
Samus: 1212/2232 (very different, pure preference)
Zero Suit Samus: 1313
Pit: 3113
Palutena: 2321
Marth: 3111
Ike: 1221
Robin: 2131
Kirby: 3112
King Dedede: 3X12 (side special is pure preference, 3 is the most fun but fair trade-offs all around)
Meta Knight: 3212
Little Mac: 1111 (most of his customs are AWFUL, a few match-up niche cases)
Fox: 3331
Falco: 1123
Pikachu: 2211 (down 2 is also very strong but a completely different type of move, very big match-up choice)
Charizard: 3311
Lucario: 2221
Jigglypuff: 1111 (again, AWFUL custom specials)
Greninja: 1312
Duck Hunt: 3133
R.O.B.: 2112
Ness: 1112
Captain Falcon: 2211
Villager:1122
Olimar: 1332
Wii Fit Trainer: 1321
Dr. Mario: 2332
Dark Pit: 1113 (Guiding Arrows are probably better but there is ZERO reason to pick that and not pick default Pit)
Lucina: 3111
Shulk: 1323? (never figured out what I wanted on him well)
Pac-Man: 1222
Mega Man: 1212
Sonic: 3221
Mii Brawler: 1132
Mii Swordfighter: 1331 (default on side and up also very good moves for more defensive style)
Mii Gunner: 3112

I tried to not give too much elaboration since I could write forever about these moves and would be more comfortable just talking about any that are of particular interest, but maybe that's helpful? I think some characters benefit WAY more from this system than others, and in some cases it's about choices versus one goodstuff character to character (like Link is always about the same, but Toon Link has so much variation you can go for match-up to match-up on his quirky projectile variants, have to think like that). Mii Brawler customs are a topic, and I really do think his side 1 is his best move and is a ridiculous move in general (fast, powerful, rushes forward: fantastic move).

 

[Minordeth]

I think this has been touched on a bit in this massive thread, but it feels like the standard deviation of the characters from the (perceived) top and bottom is far less than it has been in the past. There may be a few outliers towards the bottom that have near unwinnable MUs (8-2, or something), but it just doesn't seem as drastic as in Brawl or Melee.

 

[Kofu]

I'm going to chime in and talk a bit about Mr. Game & Watch, since I've seen multiple lists place him in the lower rankings of characters, and personally I don't agree with that at all.

To start, I have seen one particular trait that seems to be the reason why characters are so far considered good in this game: mobility. It's not the only factor, but most of the top-tier candidates are really good at getting around and positioning themselves, whether in the ground or in the air. Sheik, Sonic, ZSS, Greninja, Little Mac, Diddy, and Yoshi all move very fluidly and can reposition themselves as needed. (Rosalina and Lucario have their own abilities.) Characters that lack good movement options are being seen as less effective.

I bring this nip because I feel that G&W is reasonably mobile. Although his ground speed is mediocre and his air speed, while good, isn't comparable to the likes of Yoshi, he has a few other ways of getting around. G&W has one of the most solid vertical mobilities in the game between his Up Special and his DAir, and he has the tools to make good use of that. NAir and UAir are two of the best juggling tools in the game, and being able to use them out of Up-B is insane. He can even jump out of Up-B after using an aerial, which is nice. None of this has really changed from Brawl, but I feel it's important to bring up anyway.

It may just be a trick of the eyes, but G&W seems to be slightly smaller in this game. This allows him to avoid enemy attacks slightly easier. His crouch is also really low, nullifying a good deal of projectiles (he can duck under WFT's fully charged Sun Salutation lol). Also worth noting is that his head is invincible while using USmash, allowing him to counterattack if well-timed.

His horizontal spacing is more or less the same, except that FAir has less lag and DTilt is a lot slower. Speaking of DTilt, it has a windbox now, making it more of a niche move, but I could see it being used to punish horizontally-inclined recoveries. Jab is much better, however, thanks to the finishing hit that make is much more safe. The change to Oil Panic makes the move easier to use, adding a useful offensive tool to his kit against certain opponents. It can also absorb explosions now, for what that's worth.

He does have a few weaknesses, though, most notably his weight. He's extremely light which makes it hard for G&W to get much out of the rage mechanic, and he no longer has bucket braking to extend survival. None of his aerials autocancel out of a low jump anymore; this is mainly an inconvenience but makes approaching a grounded foe head-on with an aerial a risky proposition. His kill power has been reduced; USmash often doesn't kill until over 100% now, and his other smashes are weaker than that, usually killing at 120% or above, which is nice for this game, but it's a far cry from what he used to be able to do and it makes life hard for him when opponents can launch him better the longer they survive. He is still an excellent gimper to somewhat compensate for his lack of kill moves, though.

Honestly, G&W seems solid to me in this game. Top tier? No. High tier? Maybe at the lower end. But people are overstating his "nerfs" from Brawl and not realizing that he's still very usable and should be able to keep up with the better characters in the game.

 

[Tagxy]

Whats the key for that ampharos?

Also I know people are hyped about pikachus stun jolt and it is pretty cool, but he does lose a lot in terms of edge guard potential with regular jolt. Regular jolts distance allows you to control the space of a recovering opponent and force a jump. Between this and thunder it gives him a formidable offstage presence. If pikachu ends up having a hard time landing kill moves maybe jolt 2 will be worth it.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

What the hell are Kirby's options against rosaluma? :/ and I put this in the wrong forum >_>

 

[Berserker.]

Anyone getting anything out of Toon Link's fire arrow? It's kinda giving me the Chris Redfield feels from MvC.

Except it's not as good

 

[Thinkaman]

Also raising hand on the all-custom super cool kids club. That was so three weeks ago. I had all the customs before they were cool. *hipster mode engage*

Me and Ampharos played a lot to determine those guesses for "optimal" customs in that early week where no one else had them. As most people suspect, most characters will have dominant choices for high-level 1v1 play for most or all moves.

Here are the few I disagree on:

Mario up-b options are too good to ignore. Default Fireball's approach utility may outweigh the otherwise superior fast version in certain situations, but I'm no Mario main. Scalding FLUDD may have some decent anti-camp value, good against Villager?

Peach's Sleepy Toad is okay.

Yoshi has 3 really good neutrals. Default allows more punishment, and 2 is really crazy to wavebounce.

Bowser Jr.'s karts are all impressive looking, but I prefer 2.

Link might want up-b 2 in some matchups.

Zelda likes default Nayru's in a lot of matchups, and may prove to want to mix up the similar Phantom options. (I still think Phantom is great and underrated)

Palutena might end up wanting Lightweight in many matchups; we'll see. Also, Warp is not a bad choice.

Robin might prefer Distant Nosferatu, especially in teams. Default Elwind may be preferred by many to Gliding, but either should work...

I think DDD should almost always take Gordo Toss 3.

Little Mac really does need side-b 3 and down-b 3 in certain matchups. They are critical, necessary compromises.

Fox up-b 3 feels underwhelming to me; I like 2.

Pikachu's side-b 3 may prove more useful as the ultimate shield break punish; this might have more utility than either other option.

Charizard Fire Fang and Rising Cyclone are pretty solid. Flare Blitz is also worth considering in some matchups.

Jigglypuff Pound 3 isn't terrible, and Rest 2 is surprisingly decent at doing what it does.

All 3 DHD Cans are really good moves, though I like 3 the most.

Ness: I still like PK Fire 3, and the other PK Thunders have merits. Obviously Forward Psi Magnet is good in certain matchups...

For Falcon, I don't like heavy Raptor Boost /at all/, but that might be personal preference.

Villager obviously takes Garden in matchups with zero projectiles. It's not a bad move!

WFT's customs are all great, but I like 2321 most.

Shulk's Monado Arts are personal preference imo, all 3 options have compelling playstyle-based advantages.

Mega Man's side-bs are all okay, no clear winner; I think Crash Bomber is underrated. All 3 down-bs have their place; Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier are super underrated. Great footstool-gimp tools.

 

[Luco]

Ness' PK Fire 3 is an attempt to have Lucas' PK fire, but Ness' mechanics mean that this PK fire is much less useful than it was in Brawl. Ness' short hop is much higher than Lucas. Using this PK fire naturally results in it going over the heads of most characters with few exceptions, and having to time it is all well and good but the landing lag on it is ferocious. Personally, I feel the move is invalidated simply because Ness' mechanics are different from Lucas'.

The forward PSI magnet is good; I just have a personal dislike against it because you don't turn around to absorb something when it feels like you should because "oh hey look they're trying to have Lucas' specials. WELL SCREW YOU TOO NINTENDO!

Ness' Vortex, I don't know how I feel about. =/

 

[Shaya]

Game and Watch has been my little secret brewing in the background to hype up here. He got nerfed from Brawl in any way at all? I'd really like to know what.

While I'm not sure about being an inherent top tier, this ****** wrecks nearly every perceived high/top tier in the game bar Sheik.
AND I HAVENT EVEN SAT DOWN TO SEE IF HIS FTILT > HER ENTIRE MOVESET YET, IM SURE SOMEONE WILL SHOW IT TO BE TRUE THOUGH.

But okay, how do I put this... this character just... has single tools that counter all the gimmicky/jank.
BY HAVING SO MUCH GIMMICKY JANK OF HIS OWN, HOLY ****.
(INVINCIBILITY ON HIS UP SMASH ON RELEASE IS BALANCED) [he may have invincibility on his head during the charge too]

Warning: incoming immature rhetoric

But let me go over who this character bodies, and why:
1. Rosalina + Luma. I don't think Rosalina and Luma combined have a single move or combination that game and watch doesn't outprioritise, puts luma into stun, looms with a hitbox that just beats or at worse clanks with every single one of rosalina's attack. I have not seen a match up with either as game and watch or against rosalina that is as face roll as me just walking, forward tilting, fairing, and baconing, over and over again. I'm not here to underestimate Rosalina's abilities, but every instance of this match up I've played has been face roll, I made my main training partner drop her, among other things. I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Rosalina at all.

2. Lucario. Three 0% Lucario min charge aurasphere bucketed kills Lucario by 50%. Any above min charge aurasphere gives either 2 or 3 bucket stacks. Side B gives usually 2, sometimes 3.
*jump off stage after lucario because I don't even care what percent they are i'll trollolol them until they're 200%, no problem* Up B at any time you'd feel is relatively close to interception. Kill Lucario, or wind box him up into the stratosphere for a free whatever the **** you want.
Forward Tilt > his footsies.
His means of getting away from uair are like, non existent. Up airing his Up-B is practically orgasmic.
I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Lucario, at 200%, at all.

3. Yoshi: Well, asides from completely negating eggs (thank ****, much like G&W's does luma), his neutral seems pretty good. Ftilt beats a lot of his ground mix ups/attacks. Back air and neutral air > his aerials. Every time yoshi jumps above my head I up-b with invincibility that knocks them out of that armor and sends them to their deaths. Works off stage too. Joyous. I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Yoshi's camp, shield pressure, or range. But I'm sure he can adapt.

4. Little Mac. NO MAC, DON'T DO IT, DON'T RELEASE THAT SMASH ATTACK WITH SUPER ARMOR AS I FEARLESSLY JUMP INTO YOU, DON'T... NOOOOOoooo~ *Up B* ?????????????????? ?? ?? ??
Pro tip: Game and Watch's down tilt has a wind box above the ground for some reason. If Little mac ever side bs on stage or even goes for the ledge with it from off stage, down tilt sends him into the sky in free fall.

5. Greninja. NO GRENINJA, DON'T DO IT, DON'T DOWN AIR TOWARDS ME ITS A TRAP. DON'T... NOooooooOOoO~~~ [up air for days]
NO GRENINJA, DON'T DO IT, DON'T TRY TO RECOVER, JUST TAKE YOUR DIGNITY WITH YOU AND JUST FAST FALL TO YOU DEATH, NOoo NOooooooooooooo [Huge wind box + massive weird water trajectory = dead greninja rocketing into the opposite part of the stage's blast zone]

6. All the fatties:
LoL NEUTRAL AIR (and Up Air actually slows down/freedom traps all those nasty down bs you don't like)

TRY IT OUT, BELIEVE.
*probably loses to all the swordsman (incl. link), Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong.

Every time I play this character against those "good match ups" all I feel is this:

and a lot of

 

[Luco]

Game and Watch has been my little secret brewing in the background to hype up here. He got nerfed from Brawl in any way at all? I'd really like to know what.

While I'm not sure about being an inherent top tier, this ****er wrecks nearly every perceived high/top tier in the game bar Sheik.
AND I HAVENT EVEN SAT DOWN TO SEE IF HIS FTILT > HER ENTIRE MOVESET YET, IM SURE SOMEONE WILL SHOW IT TO BE TRUE THOUGH.

But okay, how do I put this... this character just... has single tools that counter all the gimmicky/jank.
BY HAVING SO MUCH GIMMICKY JANK OF HIS OWN, HOLY ****.
(INVINCIBILITY ON HIS UP SMASH ON RELEASE IS BALANCED) [he may have invincibility on his head during the charge too]

Warning: incoming immature rhetoric

But let me go over who this character bodies, and why:
1. Rosalina + Luma. I don't think Rosalina and Luma combined have a single move or combination that game and watch doesn't outprioritise, puts luma into stun, looms with a hitbox that just beats or at worse clanks with every single one of rosalina's attack. I have not seen a match up with either as game and watch or against rosalina that is as face roll as me just walking, forward tilting, fairing, and baconing, over and over again. I'm not here to underestimate Rosalina's abilities, but every instance of this match up I've played has been face roll, I made my main training partner drop her, among other things. I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Rosalina at all.

2. Lucario. Three 0% Lucario min charge aurasphere bucketed kills Lucario by 50%. Any above min charge aurasphere gives either 2 or 3 bucket stacks. Side B gives usually 2, sometimes 3.
*jump off stage after lucario because I don't even care what percent they are i'll trollolol them until they're 200%, no problem* Up B at any time you'd feel is relatively close to interception. Kill Lucario, or wind box him up into the stratosphere for a free whatever the **** you want.
Forward Tilt > his footsies.
His means of getting away from uair are like, non existent. Up airing his Up-B is practically orgasmic.
I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Lucario, at 200%, at all.

3. Yoshi: Well, asides from completely negating eggs (thank ****, much like G&W's does luma), his neutral seems pretty good. Ftilt beats a lot of his ground mix ups/attacks. Back air and neutral air > his aerials. Every time yoshi jumps above my head I up-b with invincibility that knocks them out of that armor and sends them to their deaths. Works off stage too. Joyous. I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Yoshi's camp, shield pressure, or range. But I'm sure he can adapt.

4. Little Mac. NO MAC, DON'T DO IT, DON'T RELEASE THAT SMASH ATTACK WITH SUPER ARMOR AS I FEARLESSLY JUMP INTO YOU, DON'T... NOOOOOoooo~ *Up B* ?????????????????? ?? ?? ??
Pro tip: Game and Watch's down tilt has a wind box above the ground for some reason. If Little mac ever side bs on stage or even goes for the ledge with it from off stage, down tilt sends him into the sky in free fall.

5. Greninja. NO GRENINJA, DON'T DO IT, DON'T DOWN AIR TOWARDS ME ITS A TRAP. DON'T... NOooooooOOoO~~~ [up air for days]
NO GRENINJA, DON'T DO IT, DON'T TRY TO RECOVER, JUST TAKE YOUR DIGNITY WITH YOU AND JUST FAST FALL TO YOU DEATH, NOoo NOooooooooooooo [Huge wind box + massive weird water trajectory = dead greninja rocketing into the opposite part of the stage's blast zone]

6. All the fatties:
LoL NEUTRAL AIR (and Up Air actually slows down/freedom traps all those nasty down bs you don't like)

TRY IT OUT, BELIEVE.
*probably loses to all the swordsman (incl. link), Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong.

Every time I play this character against those "good match ups" all I feel is this:
View attachment 28642

and a lot of

I knew i'd seen that gif somewhere before. YOU CAN'T FOOL ME SHAYA!

I think Game and Watch's range has stayed very similar to how it was in Brawl and for that reason his aerial game is godlike against so many characters. I literally think his only major nerf is that he's now the third lightest character in the game and as such dies so early it's almost laughable.... except it isn't because he's stupid in just about every other aspect. Sure I can Bthrow you for a kill at 100% G&W, but can I even get you to 100% in the first place? You tell me.

 

[-Jax]

It's really hard for me to talk about competitive character impressions without including custom moves in the equation. A lot of the characters you guys seem to think are low/mid tier material have a lot of good tools at their disposal in the custom move-pool. It's not that they have more to gain from a larger move-pool because they are worse characters, but instead that their better custom moves make their play-style flow smoothly, and add depth.

This is a pretty large generalization, but they took a lot of the Brawl characters and across the board increased their movespeed, increased their landing lag, normalized ranges, and normalized projectile strengths (with an overall nerf). Of course outliers exist, but generally this is the case.

You'll find that these rather consistent design points ended up buffing and nerfing your favorites from Brawl. Look at each of those changes and examine how they relate to each character you have in mind. The ones that were nerfed from the changes probably have some pretty great custom options, while the better characters not so much.

This is only speculation, but it feels as if the dev team purposely left some of their default kits weaker in order to preserve their old feel, and then tried to balance them using custom specials. It's EXCITING to see the transition of a Brawl character that doesn't fit into Smash4's engine turn into one that has a place because of the addition of custom specials.

----------------------

Most tournaments right now ban custom moves. I haven't talked to every TOs out there, obviously, but I can presume they're banned right now simply because it's a new concept. Players don't know all of the moves yet. Players don't want to grind for them on the 3ds; they'd much rather dive into competitive play. And it simply hasn't been the status quo. It's easy to ban them and avoid a fuss, at least until they're more readily understood, and we can more confidently analyze the implications of their inclusion.

Judging by the direction it's headed, though, custom moves will probably be legal much more widespread sometime after the Wii-U version comes out, after which point we can transfer moves to consoles easily. I'm confident we won't see much resistance once people understand the development team's general formulas and trends.

Some of these custom move trends include following:

• stronger but slower/less range
• faster/further reach but no hitbox/weaker
• piercing projectile but weaker
• slower projectile but stronger
• faster projectile but weaker

For a majority of the moves (and I've seen them all), it's pretty basic stuff. They all have their tradeoffs. None seem imbalanced or too centralizing. And if something turns up, there's an easy way to get rid of it.

I understand some tournament series won't adopt custom move legal rulesets regardless, but they are worth seriously considering when it comes to strengths and weaknesses, matchups, and tier list placement and discussion. I encourage you guys to look them up if you don't have the patience to unlock them all.

I think Palutena is the only one not following this custom move trend. But she starts with all her customs unlocked so people have no excuse not knowing them.

 

[Thinkaman]

Palutena Dash Attack beats every attack and projectile hitbox in the game except:

• Counter Sapling
• Thoron
• Explosive Flame
• Maybe DK up-b 3

Literally everything else; from Wobbuffet tree to max power bucket, from Ensnaring Aura Sphere to Little Mac f-smash.

Bair behaves the same way, but loses protection on landing and doesn't seem to last as long. (It loses to Wobuffet tree, for example.) It should beat every typical aerial in the game head-to-head, period.

Discuss!

 

[Kofu]

Game and Watch has been my little secret brewing in the background to hype up here. He got nerfed from Brawl in any way at all? I'd really like to know what.

While I'm not sure about being an inherent top tier, this ****er wrecks nearly every perceived high/top tier in the game bar Sheik.
AND I HAVENT EVEN SAT DOWN TO SEE IF HIS FTILT > HER ENTIRE MOVESET YET, IM SURE SOMEONE WILL SHOW IT TO BE TRUE THOUGH.

But okay, how do I put this... this character just... has single tools that counter all the gimmicky/jank.
BY HAVING SO MUCH GIMMICKY JANK OF HIS OWN, HOLY ****.
(INVINCIBILITY ON HIS UP SMASH ON RELEASE IS BALANCED) [he may have invincibility on his head during the charge too]

Warning: incoming immature rhetoric

But let me go over who this character bodies, and why:
1. Rosalina + Luma. I don't think Rosalina and Luma combined have a single move or combination that game and watch doesn't outprioritise, puts luma into stun, looms with a hitbox that just beats or at worse clanks with every single one of rosalina's attack. I have not seen a match up with either as game and watch or against rosalina that is as face roll as me just walking, forward tilting, fairing, and baconing, over and over again. I'm not here to underestimate Rosalina's abilities, but every instance of this match up I've played has been face roll, I made my main training partner drop her, among other things. I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Rosalina at all.

2. Lucario. Three 0% Lucario min charge aurasphere bucketed kills Lucario by 50%. Any above min charge aurasphere gives either 2 or 3 bucket stacks. Side B gives usually 2, sometimes 3.
*jump off stage after lucario because I don't even care what percent they are i'll trollolol them until they're 200%, no problem* Up B at any time you'd feel is relatively close to interception. Kill Lucario, or wind box him up into the stratosphere for a free whatever the **** you want.
Forward Tilt > his footsies.
His means of getting away from uair are like, non existent. Up airing his Up-B is practically orgasmic.
I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Lucario, at 200%, at all.

3. Yoshi: Well, asides from completely negating eggs (thank ****, much like G&W's does luma), his neutral seems pretty good. Ftilt beats a lot of his ground mix ups/attacks. Back air and neutral air > his aerials. Every time yoshi jumps above my head I up-b with invincibility that knocks them out of that armor and sends them to their deaths. Works off stage too. Joyous. I cannot believe how much G&W does not have to respect Yoshi's camp, shield pressure, or range. But I'm sure he can adapt.

4. Little Mac. NO MAC, DON'T DO IT, DON'T RELEASE THAT SMASH ATTACK WITH SUPER ARMOR AS I FEARLESSLY JUMP INTO YOU, DON'T... NOOOOOoooo~ *Up B* ?????????????????? ?? ?? ??
Pro tip: Game and Watch's down tilt has a wind box above the ground for some reason. If Little mac ever side bs on stage or even goes for the ledge with it from off stage, down tilt sends him into the sky in free fall.

5. Greninja. NO GRENINJA, DON'T DO IT, DON'T DOWN AIR TOWARDS ME ITS A TRAP. DON'T... NOooooooOOoO~~~ [up air for days]
NO GRENINJA, DON'T DO IT, DON'T TRY TO RECOVER, JUST TAKE YOUR DIGNITY WITH YOU AND JUST FAST FALL TO YOU DEATH, NOoo NOooooooooooooo [Huge wind box + massive weird water trajectory = dead greninja rocketing into the opposite part of the stage's blast zone]

6. All the fatties:
LoL NEUTRAL AIR (and Up Air actually slows down/freedom traps all those nasty down bs you don't like)

TRY IT OUT, BELIEVE.
*probably loses to all the swordsman (incl. link), Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong.

Every time I play this character against those "good match ups" all I feel is this:
View attachment 28642

and a lot of

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way. It's also worth noting that his DA puts opponents in a really bad position thanks to the disgusting angle it sends people. Depending on how they react, you can grab them (and get more damage off of down throw), hit them with FAir, or just smack them with DA again.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Palutena Dash Attack beats every attack and projectile hitbox in the game except:

• Counter Sapling
• Thoron
• Explosive Flame
• Maybe DK up-b 3

Literally everything else; from Wobbuffet tree to max power bucket, from Ensnaring Aura Sphere to Little Mac f-smash.

Bair behaves the same way, but loses protection on landing and doesn't seem to last as long. (It loses to Wobuffet tree, for example.) It should beat every typical aerial in the game head-to-head, period.

Discuss!

Palutena is a no-skill character and that's her biggest advantage. She's not the worst character in the game by a little while, certainly better than Doc/Swordfighter/Zard. I wouldn't say Ganon, but I'd estimate a 50-50 matchup there.

 

[Berserker.]

Palutena is a no-skill character and that's her biggest advantage. She's not the worst character in the game by a little while, certainly better than Doc/Swordfighter/Zard. I wouldn't say Ganon, but I'd estimate a 50-50 matchup there.

No-skill character?

 

[DeViSION]

Hmmm..... I seen alot of people liking Greninja's 1neutral B over the custom 2nd.....IMO the 2nd one offers more options and setups with that pull in effect. I juss wished his Fair didn't that much start up, but then if it didn't he could be OP. The Shadow Dash custom would be better IMO if the distance was shorter too

And don't sleep on the Villager lol. The Vilaager the Usmash, Uair, Dair are godlike moves when used correctly.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

No-skill character?

She doesn't require any techs or high-skilled plays/combos to be useful. Her DA out-prioritzes almost everything so as long as it's used as a punish move you've got the enemy in the air which is your space cause you have good hitboxes on all your airs.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I'm really having trouble seeing Kirby as a "good" character. There also doesn't seem to be much discussion about him in general, or on other parts of the forums, other than the Kirby section of course.

 

[Berserker.]

She doesn't require any techs or high-skilled plays/combos to be useful. Her DA out-prioritzes almost everything so as long as it's used as a punish move you've got the enemy in the air which is your space cause you have good hitboxes on all your airs.

That's a new way of looking at "No-skill" characters. I thought it meant something different. Like, I read it as "Characters that are easy to pick up".

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm really having trouble seeing Kirby as a "good" character. There also doesn't seem to be much discussion about him in general, or on other parts of the forums, other than the Kirby section of course.

I'm kinda starting to think so too.

He just doesn't feel as powerful as he did in Brawl. It might just be the larger blast zones, but I do have a really hard time getting a KO with him.

He also seems to be more sluggish than he was in Brawl, at least in the air. Most notably, how is aerial Side B is now. In Brawl, using hammer in mid-air only cut your vertical momentum for a brief second. Your horizontal momentum was still maneuverable, though, meaning you could set up for the move quite well. However, in Smash 4, the opposite happens. Your horizontal momentum is cut (not instantly, but still really quickly), and you don't get any brief cut in vertical momentum. This makes the move really difficult to hit with, and extremely easy to punish in comparison to the Brawl version.

 

[Brendan Stepladder]

What are everyone's thoughts on peach? haven't heard much about her yet.

 

[ChikoLad]

What are everyone's thoughts on peach? haven't heard much about her yet.

She apparently has a lot of tech that makes her very good, but as someone who has not experimented with that stuff, I don't think she's very good unless you use that stuff. Just feels lacking in almost every way if you play her on a standard level.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Kirby also feels like he has a lot of match ups that aren't in his favor, making a lot of his battles very up-hill. Supposedly he's better than he was in brawl, but I'm not seeing it, Everybody else seem to have gotten better too, some considerably so.

Because Kirby is so light,I find myself at KO damage, before I can KO an opponent myself. Seems like most of his moves Ko at around 120-130$ but I've had people survive to 170% before I could kill them. I ran into a megaman earlier and he survived into the 200's, and I still couldn't get a KO on him, granted I was suffering from input lag and his zoning.

Huh, everybody seems to want to talk about Rosa, peach, shiek, greninja, rosalina, marth/luncina, pit/dark pit, little mac, yoshi and that bunch. Just an observation.

 

[Rockaphin]

What are everyone's thoughts on peach? haven't heard much about her yet.

I think she's an underrated character. She has some really nasty set-ups with her turnips that can cancel landing lag.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Her aerials not going stale when she hovers is terrifying, makes them really spammable too. I have to wonder if it's a glitch or a design choice?

 

[Jabejazz]

What are everyone's thoughts on peach? haven't heard much about her yet.

Biggest sleeper high tier character. She's fundamentally amazing.

 

[Berserker.]

The only time I'm really feeling it with Kirby is when I inhale Shulk. Seriously, Monado Jump Kirby is outright insane and I think Kirby should have been Monado Jump Kirby

I still think Kirby as of the moment is alright.

 

[ChikoLad]

The only time I'm really feeling it with Kirby is when I inhale Shulk.