Character Competitive Impressions

[TheReflexWonder]

The fact that airdodging to the ground isn't nearly as useful for most characters already makes it worlds better. It's easier to land and easier to punish post-hatch.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You could also run the hilarious custom variant that shoots them out super far.

It's pretty funny and it works great on some characters and decent on others, not bad against anyone really.

 

[Yikarur]

The fact that airdodging to the ground isn't nearly as useful for most characters already makes it worlds better. It's easier to land and easier to punish post-hatch.

Do you even play the game? Airdodges got so much better in this game so it's a lot harder to hit people out of it.
And how is it easier to land? it got nerfed framewise. It's frame data is a lot worse than in Brawl.

 

[Unknownkid]

Changing the direction of Sword Launcher, you're serious?! Gotta check that out. I've tried Jab Cancelling and Swordfighter can do it, but it's tricky because one slip on the movement stick and you end up doing Jab 2 and Jab 3.

Yep. But like I said, it is at the startup. I don't know any utilities for it except for escape option. SoL at maximum distance does a lot of shield damage too. I am sure there is more hidden techs for Swordfighter but I have been busy with work, life, and Monster Hunter to discover them. I am sure someone will find something like Emblem Lord did. Give it time.

Dude! Pon's Ganondorf and using the back hit of Uair, using the uppercut of Dark Dive, and just... DUDE! And then he fights an unknown Falco with the jukes. Look at the pivots, reverse B's, and DUDE! Just watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWkQ6z06m9s.

Wait... did I see a Falco do Ftilt into Jab Lock? This is madness?!

Do you even play the game? Airdodges got so much better in this game so it's a lot harder to hit people out of it.
And how is it easier to land? it got nerfed framewise. It's frame data is a lot worse than in Brawl.

Airdodge got better? Okay whatever you have been smoking... you need pass it over here, bruh. I thought it was a general consensus that Airdodge got nerfed due to 22 frames endlag if you dodge to the ground.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Airdodge got better? Okay whatever you have been smoking... you need pass it over here, bruh. I thought it was a general consensus that Airdodge got nerfed due to 22 frames endlag if you dodge to the ground.

I'm guessing you have no idea what he means then.

 

[Unknownkid]

I'm guessing you have no idea what he means then.

I guess not. Please explain.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Airdodge to the ground is worse. Airdodge to airdodge or airdodge to aerial seems stronger and seems like there is a much smaller window to punish.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Smash 4 (Yoshi, not sure on others but my guess is universal) Airdodge is invincible 3-28 ends F 33
Brawl's is 4-29 but ends on F 49 (for yoshi at least, but again maybe universal)

Landing lag or not, the fact you can start up a second airdodge already while still recovering from the first one in brawl is a big buff already.
If you're airdodging too the ground, then you deserve to get punished.

 

[san.]

Smash 4 (Yoshi, not sure on others but my guess is universal) Airdodge is invincible 3-28 ends F 33
Brawl's is 4-29 but ends on F 49 (for yoshi at least, but again maybe universal)

Jeez, that explains a lot when looking at the numbers. I didn't know it was that much of a difference.

 

[Unknownkid]

Airdodge to the ground is worse. Airdodge to airdodge or airdodge to aerial seems stronger and seems like there is a much smaller window to punish.

Smash 4 (Yoshi, not sure on others but my guess is universal) Airdodge is invincible 3-28 ends F 33
Brawl's is 4-29 but ends on F 49 (for yoshi at least, but again maybe universal)

Landing lag or not, the fact you can start up a second airdodge already while still recovering from the first one in brawl is a big buff already.
If you're airdodging too the ground, then you deserve to get punished.

Hmm... I see. I noticed this before but I thought it was due to lag or my timing when attacking an airdodge opponent was off. Now, I understand the buff. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's about trapping landings. A lot of characters don't have many options for landing in that scenario. Yoshi's Dash Attack already takes up almost half of Battlefield, which helps.

 

[Vincent21]

Yeah multi-dodging or dodging to aerial is kinda huge in this game I feel like I get out of so many potential chases in this game that I flat out shouldn't be escaping.

Funny thing is about ganon is that I remember complaining about him only to get a warning.
In the subject of Smash lag, I remember a saying "you don't understand lag, until you play Falco" I personally would add Pikachu. Flinging yourself off the stage with QA is a very heartbreaking thing to happen.

I see your QA lag problems and raise you timing counters, armored smash punishes, bait whiffs, hit confirm KO punches, and the invincible frames of UpB, on reaction, to things in lag.

Little Mac becomes his own form of hell when attempting any kind of high level play in lag.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Smash 4 (Yoshi, not sure on others but my guess is universal) Airdodge is invincible 3-28 ends F 33
Brawl's is 4-29 but ends on F 49 (for yoshi at least, but again maybe universal)

Landing lag or not, the fact you can start up a second airdodge already while still recovering from the first one in brawl is a big buff already.
If you're airdodging too the ground, then you deserve to get punished.

In Brawl, most of the newcomer characters had airdodges that ended on frame 39. This was especially noticeable on Wario. And Bowser if I recall had an airdodge that ended on frame 59, which gave him by far the worst recovery in the game when absolutely anyone could frametrap his airdodge offstage and kill him no matter what he did.

Also unless there's very dumb character specifics I'm not aware of, Smash 4 airdodge is universally invincible 4-29, and a total duration of 34 frames. I suspect you are a frame off on your estimates.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well I put guess/maybe's at the end of both of em.
Villager's is 3-28 but invincibility ends at 26.

So there ya go, not universal but some that're just plain good. Similar to WFT having I think 11 landing lag if she airdodges to the ground.

 

[Yikarur]

It's about trapping landings. A lot of characters don't have many options for landing in that scenario. Yoshi's Dash Attack already takes up almost half of Battlefield, which helps.

Yoshis Dash Attack is one of his worst moves. It's too slow. You can adjust your landing slightly to never get hit by it because of that. That's not just theory. I know people who really do this in practice. It's easier than it sounds.

And I have few sample frame data, Air dodges are not universally the same:

Invincibility / Duration

2-26 / 31
Diddy

2-27 / 32
Mario
Luigi

3-28 / 33
Mii Brawler
Yoshi

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yoshis Dash Attack is one of his worst moves. It's too slow. You can adjust your landing slightly to never get hit by it because of that. That's not just theory. I know people who really do this in practice. It's easier than it sounds.

And I have few sample frame data, Air dodges are not universally the same:

Invincibility / Duration

2-26 / 31
Diddy

2-27 / 32
Mario
Luigi

3-28 / 33
Mii Brawler
Yoshi

soo are u just downplaying yoshi or is he secret bottom 5.

 

[san.]

Frame 2 airdodge, I definitely didn't expect that much of a difference in the early frames.

 

[Yikarur]

he is not Top8 for sure. I even have the prediction that in Late-Smash-4 Era he might even drop to low High Tier / Mid Tier.
I'm even a bit scared if we receive a new patch, that he might receive more nerfs because he's so overhyped.

 

[Sinister Slush]

All the nerfs to Yoshi... Little mac really needed that side-b nerf, OP as **** top 1 for sure. For glory japanese know best, gotta listen.

Yoshi secretly top 4.
Pruuf: http://imgur.com/buIlozF
My cousin rainstorm works at Nintendo and his friend Rain is top japanese player. It's all true.

 

[HeavyLobster]

he is not Top8 for sure. I even have the prediction that in Late-Smash-4 Era he might even drop to low High Tier / Mid Tier.
I'm even a bit scared if we receive a new patch, that he might receive more nerfs because he's so overhyped.

Really don't want anyone outside of Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Sonic, ZSS, and maybe Pika to see their default movesets nerfed in any way. Brawler, Palutena, Villager, Olimar, and maybe DK are the ones on the table to have certain customs being nerfed in some way(though if Kong Cyclone had to be nerfed I'd like to see DK buffs elsewhere). Maybe Link's infinite jab cancelling could be fixed, but he'd want buffs elsewhere, especially to his throws. None of the characters I mentioned need major nerfs, just a couple moves need to be toned down.

 

[Spinosaurus]

That tier list is actually from Rain.
https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/572061655875510272

That translation is right too.

Unless I'm missing something obvious here

 

[egaddmario]

All the nerfs to Yoshi... Little mac really needed that side-b nerf, OP as **** top 1 for sure. For glory japanese know best, gotta listen.

Yoshi secretly top 4.
Pruuf: http://imgur.com/buIlozF
My cousin rainstorm works at Nintendo and his friend Rain is top japanese player. It's all true.

Little Mac really shouldn't be this extreme- i understand the idea behind great on the ground, trash in the air, but he needs a slight ground nerf and a buff to his air game/recovery.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That tier list is actually from Rain.
https://twitter.com/SSBB_Rain/status/572061655875510272

That translation is right too.

Unless I'm missing something obvious here

Sarcasm but at the same time being rational with the tier list.
People overhyping Yoshi is what I'm getting at.

B tier is for Brad Pit

 

[FullMoon]

That airdodge discussion made me wonder, who has the best airdodge in this game?

 

[Unknownkid]

That airdodge discussion made me wonder, who has the best airdodge in this game?

Define best? I guess Mac/WFT have the "best" airdodge due to their landing lag is 19F (IIRC) unless that got fix.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi has no reliable approach option.

Yoshi has decent air and dash speed, and Fair and Dash Attack are both reliable if spaced correctly. Yoshi also has a good fox trot and solid pokes. I just don't see any real issues with his approach.

Just because he has Top Max Air Speed doen't mean his air approach is superior. His acceleration is relatively slow in relation to his max speed. His command grab has no reward at all

Uhh, how is getting free damage and forcing the opponent to recover in the air for a juggle opportunity not a reward?

upB is so laggy that you should always get punished for using it.

Yoshi UpB has about the same endlag as Luigi's Fireball, and Yoshi is much more mobile when using it from a short hop. Unless the opponent is right beside you, you should almost never be punished for using it. Even at point blank, short hop backwards into Egg can be done occasionally, if the opponent isn't specifically looking for it it's hard to react and punish in time.

Honestly, I've never even seen anyone suggest that Egg isn't a fantastic projectile in this game before. It seems to be one of the most universally accepted facts about this game.

Yoshi should not be even against any of those characters because they can break holes in Yoshis whole "Fortress" game with their speed and Yoshi has no good way to kill any character reliably.

Yoshi still has solid pokes and punishes, he's far from helpless at close range, he just prefers to be able to dictate the pace of the match.

The main reason Yoshi loses to some of those characters is because their reward on hit is much higher, so they'll just beat him in the damage race. Vs someone like Greninja who has lesser reward (possibly still a bit more than Yoshi, but Yoshi has very high survivability) he can keep up.

Your information is wrong. The opponent has the same amount of invincibility than in Melee and Brawl.
People can always mash-out of it at a speed where every attempt to hit the egg

Even the AI, which likely mashes at the maximum speed possible (I've certainly never seen a human who can mash out equally fast), can only escape before Yoshi can land a hit at ~15% or less. At anything higher you get free UpSmash.

Smash 4 (Yoshi, not sure on others but my guess is universal) Airdodge is invincible 3-28 ends F 33
Brawl's is 4-29 but ends on F 49 (for yoshi at least, but again maybe universal)

Wasn't it confirmed a while back that airdodges have IASA frames now? I think that's the main source of the difference. While the airdodge might still technically be active for around 49 frames, you can now interrupt it after like frame 33 with any other action, including another airdodge. The only situation where the full recovery of the move is relevant is when landing, but even then you can stick out an aerial that cancels fast to reduce landing lag.

In any case, yes, airdodges are functionally better now, but Yoshi still has okay tools to deal with them. Dair is active for a million years and hits super hard if anyone is spamming air dodges in unsafe ways. Don't forget that Yoshi benefits from better airdodges too, since he often has to recover high.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Little Mac really shouldn't be this extreme- i understand the idea behind great on the ground, trash in the air, but he needs a slight ground nerf and a buff to his air game/recovery.

He doesn't "need" anything.
And as a general note, they aren't balancing this game anymore aside from bugfixes, glaring game breaking issues, and Mewtwo.

 

[Terotrous]

He doesn't "need" anything.
And as a general note, they aren't balancing this game anymore aside from bugfixes, glaring game breaking issues, and Mewtwo.

Sakurai says a lot of stuff. He said wavedashing was intentional. He says that the clones were too different to be the same character. He says every smash game will be his last. Etc.


I think the only time he actually told us the truth was when he admitted that he balanced Brawl entirely by himself. That one seems believable.

 

[Antonykun]

He doesn't "need" anything.
And as a general note, they aren't balancing this game anymore aside from bugfixes, glaring game breaking issues, and Mewtwo.

It's really annoying to see people going all like oh yeah balance! Even though we were told there will be no balancing and there has yet to be any new balancing stuff. One thing is to hope and another is to ride the placebo train.
If we are going to get balance then we'll be told of it.

 

[Terotrous]

If we are going to get balance then we'll be told of it.

They didn't tell us anything before 1.0.4, they didn't even tell us that it had balance changes, it just did.

Sakurai is a balancing Ninja. He probably just told people there would be no more changes so he could sneak in the changes more easily.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

"yoshi has decent air speed"

Decent

WHAT!

 

[Terotrous]

WHAT!

You cut out the part where I said "and dash speed". It was faster than saying great air speed and decent dash speed, which I wrote like a page back anyway.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You cut out the part where I said "and dash speed". It was faster than saying great air speed and decent dash speed, which I wrote like a page back anyway.

Lol still makes the statement wrong. I don't think i could ever call an air speed thats the same as jiggly decent. but i get your point.

 

[David Viran]

Even the AI, which likely mashes at the maximum speed possible (I've certainly never seen a human who can mash out equally fast), can only escape before Yoshi can land a hit at ~15% or less. At anything higher you get free usmash.

I know humans can mash out of stuff like that faster. I've grounded people with zss's down b at 110 and they mashed out right away I could barley get anything. On computers it's always a free dsmash at that percent.

 

[Terotrous]

I know humans can mash out of stuff like that faster. I've grounded people with zss's down b at 110 and they mashed out right away I could barley get anything. On computers it's always a free dsmash at that percent.

Interesting, but I've never fought anyone or seen anyone on a stream who was able to mash out of Egg Lay quickly enough to avoid the UpSmash past 20% or so. If it is possible, it likely requires a turbo controller.

It's important to note that if you're using Yoshi NeutralB 3 (Egg Launch), they can mash out WAY faster. This is the entire reason I don't advocate using it.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

They didn't tell us anything before 1.0.4, they didn't even tell us that it had balance changes, it just did.

Sakurai is a balancing Ninja. He probably just told people there would be no more changes so he could sneak in the changes more easily.

Sneak in changes?
Dude, NOTHING gets past this community without us knowing.

 

[Terotrous]

Sneak in changes?
Dude, NOTHING gets past this community without us knowing.

I know, but he clearly thinks it will. Trying to stealthily remove things like DACUS and Vectoring as though we wouldn't notice.

 

[|RK|]

They didn't tell us anything before 1.0.4, they didn't even tell us that it had balance changes, it just did.

Sakurai is a balancing Ninja. He probably just told people there would be no more changes so he could sneak in the changes more easily.

False. They mentioned that there were changes to character balance in 1.0.4. They just didn't tell us what the changes were.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I know, but he clearly thinks it will. Trying to stealthily remove things like DACUS and Vectoring as though we wouldn't notice.

...

All that happened is they were removed. Not sure what's "stealthy" about it

 

[Grass]

So here's to 1.0.6, mew2, and everyone going online to use M2. Let's wait for diddy's downthrow to get nerfed to his down throw in brawl. For the record i liked that down throw more. It was a great way to pressure horizontally also you could follow up with Fairs.