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Character Competitive Impressions

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incrediblej

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Am I allowed to post the preliminary style points tier list here? (No particular order within tiers)
SS::4falcon:
S::4ganondorf::4palutena:
A::4mario::4fox::4falco::4drmario::4greninja::4luigi::4metaknight::4sheik::4pacman::4bowserjr::4peach::4megaman::4diddy:
B::4littlemac::4myfriends::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl::4robinf::4pikachu::4dedede::4duckhunt::4marth::4lucina::4shulk::4gaw::4kirby::4lucario::4dk::4sonic::4zss::4wiifit::4ness::4charizard::rosalina:
C::4villager::4olimar::4rob::4link::4tlink::4bowser::4samus::4miisword::4wario::4miigun::4pit::4darkpit::4yoshi::4zelda:
Tink is too fabulous to be so low and seems like shulk wasn't really feeling it, and sonic was to slow to get enough style points

But lets be serious why is link so low on any tier list I say he should be at least high B but no one uses him in as much tourneys as tink to show he's good and the one's that do make him looks worse it's like captain and Gannon, tink being the c. Falcon and link being Gannon

Not saying those two pairs play the same or anything

Edit: mewtwo should be mid to high not op high but top 15 because backlash or disappointment from competitive community and Nintendo doesn't want to disappoint
 
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Shaya

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Anyway in honour of having a working keyboard again, a rushed "changed opinions" impressions type of thing.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-370#post-18526920

1. Justifying Pika:
It's getting harder. Despite Up-B still being one of the best moves in the game. Sakurai has given Pika an extremely toxic + shallow design boon in the form of 90% of the cast not having moves that hit Pika in most of his animations, but beyond that I don't think it's safe to assume this character is top tier. Sheik outdamages, outcamps, outranges and outrecovers, and that's irrespective of the match up which every time I watch it played it seems like it gets worse and worse. His match ups outside of Zero Suit (not a very popular tournament character it seems) don't give him anything overly free against the top tournament threats. His hard match ups from Brawl are still hard, and the rest that could've been complicated didn't matter due to chain grabs. Suffering Sheik syndrome worse than Sheik herself, I think a lot of people are attracted to Pikachu's very low skill floor to play (smash fundamentals/understandings + abuse is 3/5ths or more of the character) but is rarely seen in tournament play for those aforementioned reasons. I guess there's enough good low hitting tilts + [dash] grabs and invincible (or gdlk huge) up smashes to put a huge halt on what efforts Pika puts in being worth it.
I guess the hard question for me now is not "who's Pika possibly worse than" but rather who's noticeably better, at this stage base strengths are still going to be the most obvious things to look at; Pika definitely has a lot.

2. Villager
As we're moving towards customs, it's pretty obvious Villager is bogus. 5 minute rule set? Yeah... Evo is legitimately made for Villager to win (well imo Sheik too) or cause a significant amount of upsets. A more well rounded A- (which probably transitions more into a "solid" B area distinction) looks fine with him in it. Tournament results globally definitely shows this character covers both popularity and reasonable results to go with it.

3. Meta Knight
Still in super theory land, but I can't help but feel this character defines what would split High tier from Mid tier. Eventually I'll get around to it properly but whilst rewards aren't there for him as severe or easy as others, he has everything he needs to win (or better put as 'everything he needs to not be forced to lose'). What do you need to win? A pretty good dash grab I hear, yep.
I don't think he'll ever be a huge splash at a national level (consistency issues), but my goodness is "things going right" for MK a scary prospect. Hit confirms + kill confirms + top 3 edge guarding [there should be no arguments]. I can see a lot of people coming to enjoy MK and pick him up, because just like everybody can have a Captain Falcon, everyone should be able to have an MK.

4. Jigglypuff is kinda trash. I'm sorry.
My deduction for this? The game's mechanics don't really help her. Rage and no edge hogging severely deflates her, more so than anyone else I'm pretty sure. Although a buffed version of Brawl jiggs, her kit isn't worth it. Multiple useless specials and nothing grand within her normals other than neutral air (imo). In the long run I feel she'll be left behind and can't really be allowed to call herself the ultimate slept-on anything other than a pillow.

5. Palutena is very good with customs. She takes cheese to extreme levels while doing it in the flashiest way possible, so it's OK. However, she needs to stand the test of time a bit. Is she a better or worse Sonic? Can her longer than average grab animation be enough to keep her far away from Diddy-tier? Honestly... that's probably it, because albeit a Goddess, her reliance on that grab is more so than any other character in the game. She can't space or zone, her 'neutral' is rather featureless. I definitely feel customs-villager is a lot more primed towards Evo and has noticeably more things to worry about that don't have reactive or even 'hard read' counters. She is the perfect representative of what we love to see in Smash "WITH CUSTOMS" but that isn't necessarily making her the best in the game. Top 10 is feasible.

6. Doctor Mario
is better than people give credit for. Arguably a stronger zoning/spacing game than regular Mario (I'm not entirely sure how, just the contrasts in play styles I've seen between the two). While I may be wrong in the long run, his game plan and means of playing match ups are already looking well thought out and progressed, which is noticeably different to most other "low rated" characters. I think if your character lacks disjoints or a means of out camping him, it isn't easy to win. This puts him in a good looking spot against just about everyone bar Diddy, Sheik, Rosa.

7. Donkey Kong
obviously going up. By how much? I don't know. Once we start seeing players handle his specials in "smarter" ways, it'll be a lot easier to gauge.

8. Greninja
Now officially "potential tier" for the rest of time until he's top 5. Ughh, what a weird character. Why do you even suck? I don't understand. He's the lowest rated (previously) character I have which I want to believe the potential.

9. Bowser Jr
Kinda like MK, I feel he naturally sets what separates a low from middle tier character. Balance hasn't been too kind to him, although he is an option-diverse character with tournament results. Take away his ability to combo reliably 0-80% and you get left with a mess though and that's the drama he's going to deal with forever: negative kill set ups.

10. Wii Fit
Still the most beautifully designed joke character of all time, customs + really good dodge specs makes me think there's more available than what a bottom tier suggests.

Anywho, I"ll probably reshuffle things around, hear some extra thoughts and then do another list to correlate to my current opinions.
Can I just pretend Miis are all 1111 still? Thanks! :p
Oh and Lucario is still awful. Why play Lucario when you can play Doctor Mario? I swear you'll be getting destroyed more often off stage/recovering with Lucario than Doc :p
[Reminder that I thank the heavens Lucario is awful though, rage is likely the mechanic that will soil this game in the long term competitively and Lucario is the poster child of what a terrible terrible thing "passives" like this actually are to design and good game play].
 
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Kofu

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I agree with those sentiments about Jigglypuff. I don't know if she's bottom-10 bad but I don't think she's fantastic either. Her air game is more functional than in Brawl, as is her ground game (I heard that her DA has the same property as Palutena's FTilt, but I'm not sure if that's entirely true), but she's just so prone to getting killed early. She doesn't trade well. And while Rest kills better than in Brawl, it's actually possible to punish it if it KOs in many instances, which is lame.

i believe it was @ZHMT that said it takes a dedicated main to be truly good with her and I'm inclined to agree, since her playstyle is so unique and yet so vulnerable to misplays.
 

Meru.

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And I have few sample frame data, Air dodges are not universally the same:

Invincibility / Duration

2-26 / 31
Diddy

2-27 / 32
Mario
Luigi

3-28 / 33
Mii Brawler
Yoshi
Omg I knew it! Airdodges have almost no lag in this game. In Brawl you could trap characters by doing an aerial, having your opponent airdodge it, and then punish their airdodge. Guess that's out in this game (unless your aerial has very little lag), because usually I just get Naired before I can punish them.
 
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Nobie

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I'm not exactly sure what has triggered such a change in overall opinion on Meta Knight, but I think that it impresses me in terms of the game's balance more than anything else, including the better position Ganondorf is in compared to Brawl. They nerfed MK's range, they got rid of his transcendent properties, Mach Tornado isn't nearly as crazy as it used to be, but they've kept enough of him there that he has a clear game plan with multiple avenues to threaten his opponent. He feels... balanced? such that he doesn't have to rely on any especially extreme strengths (aside from arguably his ability to escape danger), but also doesn't feel bland.

I think a lot of the characters who people argue as feeling a bit weak in this game can trace their precarious positions to a fear from the development team that certain tools are too strong and need to be compensated for. Marth has the divine forward smash that hits as hard as a heavyweight with the speed of a light weight, so his aerial game suffers. Samus's charge shot is legitimately threatening to just about every character, so she gets an incongruous set of moves. Lucario is Lucario.
 

Kofu

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I'm not exactly sure what has triggered such a change in overall opinion on Meta Knight, but I think that it impresses me in terms of the game's balance more than anything else, including the better position Ganondorf is in compared to Brawl. They nerfed MK's range, they got rid of his transcendent properties, Mach Tornado isn't nearly as crazy as it used to be, but they've kept enough of him there that he has a clear game plan with multiple avenues to threaten his opponent. He feels... balanced? such that he doesn't have to rely on any especially extreme strengths (aside from arguably his ability to escape danger), but also doesn't feel bland.

I think a lot of the characters who people argue as feeling a bit weak in this game can trace their precarious positions to a fear from the development team that certain tools are too strong and need to be compensated for. Marth has the divine forward smash that hits as hard as a heavyweight with the speed of a light weight, so his aerial game suffers. Samus's charge shot is legitimately threatening to just about every character, so she gets an incongruous set of moves. Lucario is Lucario.
Lucario is built overly around aura boosts and because he's so absurdly strong at high aura his moves have poor range, some have poor startup, and his movement is mediocre.
 

DanGR

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I think if MK wasn't included in Super Smash until its 4th iteration, more people now would see him as a borderline high tier character with lots of potential. Alas, we've seen the extent of Brawl MK, and many people still look more at what he can't do anymore rather than what he's capable of doing with the new engine/mechanics.
 
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Saturn_

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I think if MK wasn't included in Super Smash until its 4th iteration, more people now would see him as a borderline high tier character with lots of potential. Alas, we've seen the extent of Brawl MK, and many people still look more at what he can't do anymore rather than what he's capable of doing with the new engine/mechanics.
If two characters are equal in a given game but one is much stronger than in the past while another is weaker, I'd rather play the character that has gotten stronger. Part of the reason I don't want to play MK or Marth.
 

meleebrawler

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No way Mewtwo will be low tier if he keeps his weight and height the same as Melee. If Rosalina has a similar build and was given a semispike Bair, Luma Dair and Uair that kills at like 30, ridiculously disjointed Jab, obscene Dash Attack, a Fair and Nair that last longer than the Hobbit movie, and a projectile deflector with no drawback, I think Mewtwo will be fine.

But then, Mario was given lagless everything with an air speed Sonic would be jealous of, so maybe it's a Mario series thing this time around. Hey, maybe that's why Yoshi is lobbed with the Mario crew this time. =P
Just to clarify, Mewtwo won't be good BECAUSE he's light and tall (though if the render we got on 50-Facts
is anything to go by, it looks like tail hits won't be a problem anymore), it's just that those traits won't
hold him back, IF they give noticeable buffs to his offensive game (namely, having kill moves outside of throws
and Shadow Ball).

Omg I knew it! Airdodges have almost no lag in this game. In Brawl you could trap characters by doing an aerial, having your opponent airdodge it, and then punish their airdodge. Guess that's out in this game (unless your aerial has very little lag), because usually I just get Naired before I can punish them.
Your best bet for punishing airdodges in this game seems to be long-lasting aerials along with being
able to match your opponents movement.
Edit: Wow, Mewtwo's old Nair Spark would be great for this.
 
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TriTails

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look closer bud thats for melee.
That's not what I meant.

I was refering to this post of his:

I like the way many characters in this game naturally fall into groups, because you can find the specific moveset that fits you while still getting to have a character with a certain kind of playstyle (i.e. swordsman, spacie, etc.) Because of that, I'm going to be playing Ike/Marth and Fox/Falco and seeing who I like better, then going from there.
But looking again, it's like, 3 pages ago.

Huh, I thought it was recent.

I take that back. Sorry Saturn.
 

NachoOfCheese

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I think if MK wasn't included in Super Smash until its 4th iteration, more people now would see him as a borderline high tier character with lots of potential. Alas, we've seen the extent of Brawl MK, and many people still look more at what he can't do anymore rather than what he's capable of doing with the new engine/mechanics.
*cough* Falco *cough*
He isn't Melee Falco, he isn't Brawl Falco. But people try to play him like Melee/Brawl Falco and that's where they get screwed. That's like trying to play a campy Bowser or a rush down villager. It gets you nowhere.
 

Smog Frog

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what are peoples opinions on our favorite giraffe necked lizard, charizard? i feel that he's one of the better heavies of the game, owing to a generally better neutral game than most because of flamethrower and movement speed, a great "get off me" move in jab and fly, a great nair to cover movement options with flamethrower, and the ability to prevent attempts to reset to neutral via flare blitz. also, charizard has an amazing air to air game(if you're above him, you get hit with uair, if you're behind him, hold this bair, if you're infront of him, hold that meaty fair) further aided by the ability to change his direction with his 2 jumps. he also has an amazing offstage game, for the following reasons. with customs on, he also performs better in disadvantage than other heavies, because dragon rush is such a safe option.
 

Road Death Wheel

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what are peoples opinions on our favorite giraffe necked lizard, charizard? i feel that he's one of the better heavies of the game, owing to a generally better neutral game than most because of flamethrower and movement speed, a great "get off me" move in jab and fly, a great nair to cover movement options with flamethrower, and the ability to prevent attempts to reset to neutral via flare blitz. also, charizard has an amazing air to air game(if you're above him, you get hit with uair, if you're behind him, hold this bair, if you're infront of him, hold that meaty fair) further aided by the ability to change his direction with his 2 jumps. he also has an amazing offstage game, for the following reasons. with customs on, he also performs better in disadvantage than other heavies, because dragon rush is such a safe option.
I personally feel charazard is one of the lesser of the heavys to be honest but i hear people say otherwise though so theres that.
 

Cassio

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Someday Ill make a post about pika stuff. For now heres a response to recent posts that are meant moreso to elaborate on pika. This is customs off, too hard to judge customs atm.
Sakurai has given Pika an extremely toxic + shallow design boon in the form of 90% of the cast not having moves that hit Pika in most of his animations
...
I think a lot of people are attracted to Pikachu's very low skill floor to play (smash fundamentals/understandings + abuse is 3/5ths or more of the character) but is rarely seen in tournament play for those aforementioned reasons. I guess there's enough good low hitting tilts + [dash] grabs and invincible (or gdlk huge) up smashes to put a huge halt on what efforts Pika puts in being worth it.
I think this isnt fair. There's a lot of strategy to using size to your advantage and the fact that "random move X" will kill him in bad circumstances adds plenty of balance to the design. Missing an autopilot punish isnt shallow design, it means players have to adjust to handle the character theyre fighting and exploit the weakness that goes with it. Players may find it frustrating to hit pika, but actually using him competitively its easier understand the nuances and difficulties of handling pikachus size and weight. Honestly people make a bigger deal out of this on its own then it is out of shell shock IMO (which I think you've implied) and it also prevents them from looking at his better traits.

The problem with "just use a low hitting move" is that pikachus ground game is heads and heels above most of the cast, and potentially best in the game. Limit your opponents options to those that only work on the ground by staying on the ground, and combat their limited options with pikachus powerful ground game and you have a scary character. I've mentioned his ground game in the past. Since customs have sort of given cover for vanilla character balance changes I feel more comfortable elaborating on this and other things later in the post.

+small size
+outstanding roll and options out of roll
+above average (maybe best?) spot dodge
+Outstanding Ground Mobility
++Quick Attack (addendum to previous point, and for reasons Ive mentioned before)
+outstanding ground normals
++strong and safe grounded spacing moves (addendum to previous point)
+multiple air to ground aerials [nair, dair, bair] (aerials that hit along the ground prior to falling from SH peak).
+powerful grab game
+mediocre projectile (better then none)

Not to mention having several moves that lead to forced knockdowns, his strong ability to tech chase, and punish powerfully off techs. His only shortcomings are his jab, which is mediocre but not bad, and his dsmash which is bad. "what about range?" On the ground pikachu is safer and outranges most of the "viable" cast, but more on that later.

Compare this to a character like shiek, who's smash's are comparatively mediocre, has no range on her grounded moves, and is one-dimensional on air to ground game. Sheik has a good roll but can't capitalize off of it half as well as pika, her grab game is weaker, and to round it all off she doesnt have anything comparable to pikachu's anti-commitment Quick Attack. Her only raw advantage on the ground is her projectile. Her ground game might not be terrible but its not on the level of pikachu's so just using low hitting moves isnt going to cut it. In contrast, characters that do have legit ground games like olimar and MK actually are more difficult for pika.
Sheik outdamages, outcamps, outranges and outrecovers, and that's irrespective of the match up which every time I watch it played it seems like it gets worse and worse.
Sheik is better at camping and spacing out opponents, which on their own can allow her to be more dominant in many MUs. Her greater strengths lean defensively even if she has a formidable offense. Still, Pikachu is better at starting offense and maintaining pressure. I HIGHLY doubt sheik outdamages pikachu, at best its even but pikachu is more well rounded when it comes to grabs and tilts while still being extremely reliable with aerials. Outrecover dunno, theyre both good for different reasons but theyre both too good for the difference to be relevant.

And Pikachus killing options are more solid, sheik kills better in the air but has less she can do to set up kills unless theres something I dont know. Her raw kill power is overall lower as well. As far as Im aware her only guaranteed kill set-up is offstage needles > bouncing fish. I dont know if she has any knockdown > tech chase killing ability but Id think her options out of dash wouldnt allow her to KO from a tech chase reliably. Pika has Dtilt > forced knockdown > (tech chase if applicable) > usmash around 90-120% and leads to reliable early KOs; Fair > Dash Attack is reliable wth no rage at 145%; Utilt > Thunder/QA, and as a last resort Uthrow kills between 150-190 depending on rage (while not optimal a kill throw is not an option Sheik has and is very relevant in clutch situations). Maybe other stuff Im forgetting.

Head to head sheik has a strong reliance on her SH (F)aerial game to maintain distance from pikas offensive pressure. For awhile this mightve been considered enough for sheik to do well in this MU regardless of its linearity based on its strength, but somewhat recently discovered that pikachu could roll past sheik's short hop on reaction into a reverse uptilt (or grab, dtilt, etc.) and she has no options to cover this. Worse, utilt is probably pikachus most devastating move against sheik due to her weight. Not sure if sheik will find another way to combat pika that doesnt rely so much on short hops, but after finding out pika had a diddy kong roll, in conjunction with the ground game comparisons I mentioned earlier the MU seems to favor pika. (also gonna take the time to reemphasize how good forward roll to reverse utilt is in general <3).

Kinda of glossed over a lot of things, i.e. all the QA shenanigans ive mentioned before, or dthrow > fair working forever on most the cast and setting up a frame trap afterwards being a major part of pikas good grab game. But I guess thats for another post.

Im sure Im going to get flack for this in here but my honest assessment of these top tier/good character MUs.
Pikachu Beats: Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS
Pikachu Maybe beats: Sonic, Yoshi
Pikachu Maybe even with: Ness, Luigi, Mario
If Im being honest I think pikachu wins all these MU's except maybe ness, but Id need to see how things develop more. The MU's that "feel" hard tend to be more odd then popular.

On that note as far as tough MUs, Ive mentioned Oli and MK already. I honestly think characters like Marth and Shulk have a lot of potential against pika as well since they have some of the best air to ground aerials in the game and other strong tools that make the MU annoying for pika.
I don't know who is generally agreeing Pikachu beats Rosalina and Sonic; I would consider both to probably beat Pikachu and would say Diddy almost definitely beats Pikachu too. I could believe Pikachu beating ZSS (it makes a lot of sense), but ZSS isn't really a top character so I don't know why we'd be looking at ZSS and not other characters honestly about as good as her that would be more likely to be positive match-ups for Yoshi (characters like Mario and Ness). I also don't believe we can boil this game down to just top tier match-ups or even say with confidence what a full list of the top tiers are, and I'm not sure we can really have a match-up discussion in the first place since I don't see how our match-up disagreements here can go much beyond us just asserting our opinions about which characters beat which characters (neither of us can possibly present solid evidence these match-ups go one way or another). I also don't really see Pikachu as a top character in the first place, but that's a whole other can of worms...
Experience and understanding can help illuminate some MUs in the current metagame. I dont know much about yoshi's MUs so I wont comment on that, but feel free to explain your reasoning on Pikas.

Rosalina is one of the MU's Im most sure about pika winning. Dabuz and ESAM (before he quit) have both stated Rosalina loses to pikachu, and early impressions from playing my friend falln who is perhaps the second best Rosalina in the country lead me to believe Pikachu has a strong MU against Rosalina as well. Her defense doesnt hold up well against pika, and her size is a big part of that problem. She's also relatively easy to KO in terms of % and ability to land KO hits. A lot of her strengths tend to end up being suffering while pika's become even more powerful.

Pikachu beats diddy for the same reason he does well vs sheik, hes formidable in the SH aerial game but when hes forced to use his grounded tools he becomes a much more limited character compared to pikachu. You can compare their tools on the ground to see this.

Sonic is more murky, but on paper the MU functions very similar to Brawl. Just replace a 0-40 chaingrab with 0-40 grab combos. The MU is very similar to Falcon v Pika in melee in that who ever commits to something first tends to lose, though jolt helps to alleviate the campiest aspects of "sit in spindash and wait".
 
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Smog Frog

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alright, be honest, the moment you saw charizards bad airspeed and somewhat lower damage output compared to other heavies, you wrote him off. i bet that 90% of the people who think zard's bad did that.
 

A2ZOMG

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Anyway in honour of having a working keyboard again, a rushed "changed opinions" impressions type of thing.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-370#post-18526920

1. Justifying Pika:
It's getting harder. Despite Up-B still being one of the best moves in the game. Sakurai has given Pika an extremely toxic + shallow design boon in the form of 90% of the cast not having moves that hit Pika in most of his animations, but beyond that I don't think it's safe to assume this character is top tier. Sheik outdamages, outcamps, outranges and outrecovers, and that's irrespective of the match up which every time I watch it played it seems like it gets worse and worse. His match ups outside of Zero Suit (not a very popular tournament character it seems) don't give him anything overly free against the top tournament threats. His hard match ups from Brawl are still hard, and the rest that could've been complicated didn't matter due to chain grabs. Suffering Sheik syndrome worse than Sheik herself, I think a lot of people are attracted to Pikachu's very low skill floor to play (smash fundamentals/understandings + abuse is 3/5ths or more of the character) but is rarely seen in tournament play for those aforementioned reasons. I guess there's enough good low hitting tilts + [dash] grabs and invincible (or gdlk huge) up smashes to put a huge halt on what efforts Pika puts in being worth it.
I guess the hard question for me now is not "who's Pika possibly worse than" but rather who's noticeably better, at this stage base strengths are still going to be the most obvious things to look at; Pika definitely has a lot.

2. Villager
As we're moving towards customs, it's pretty obvious Villager is bogus. 5 minute rule set? Yeah... Evo is legitimately made for Villager to win (well imo Sheik too) or cause a significant amount of upsets. A more well rounded A- (which probably transitions more into a "solid" B area distinction) looks fine with him in it. Tournament results globally definitely shows this character covers both popularity and reasonable results to go with it.

3. Meta Knight
Still in super theory land, but I can't help but feel this character defines what would split High tier from Mid tier. Eventually I'll get around to it properly but whilst rewards aren't there for him as severe or easy as others, he has everything he needs to win (or better put as 'everything he needs to not be forced to lose'). What do you need to win? A pretty good dash grab I hear, yep.
I don't think he'll ever be a huge splash at a national level (consistency issues), but my goodness is "things going right" for MK a scary prospect. Hit confirms + kill confirms + top 3 edge guarding [there should be no arguments]. I can see a lot of people coming to enjoy MK and pick him up, because just like everybody can have a Captain Falcon, everyone should be able to have an MK.

4. Jigglypuff is kinda trash. I'm sorry.
My deduction for this? The game's mechanics don't really help her. Rage and no edge hogging severely deflates her, more so than anyone else I'm pretty sure. Although a buffed version of Brawl jiggs, her kit isn't worth it. Multiple useless specials and nothing grand within her normals other than neutral air (imo). In the long run I feel she'll be left behind and can't really be allowed to call herself the ultimate slept-on anything other than a pillow.

5. Palutena is very good with customs. She takes cheese to extreme levels while doing it in the flashiest way possible, so it's OK. However, she needs to stand the test of time a bit. Is she a better or worse Sonic? Can her longer than average grab animation be enough to keep her far away from Diddy-tier? Honestly... that's probably it, because albeit a Goddess, her reliance on that grab is more so than any other character in the game. She can't space or zone, her 'neutral' is rather featureless. I definitely feel customs-villager is a lot more primed towards Evo and has noticeably more things to worry about that don't have reactive or even 'hard read' counters. She is the perfect representative of what we love to see in Smash "WITH CUSTOMS" but that isn't necessarily making her the best in the game. Top 10 is feasible.

6. Doctor Mario
is better than people give credit for. Arguably a stronger zoning/spacing game than regular Mario (I'm not entirely sure how, just the contrasts in play styles I've seen between the two). While I may be wrong in the long run, his game plan and means of playing match ups are already looking well thought out and progressed, which is noticeably different to most other "low rated" characters. I think if your character lacks disjoints or a means of out camping him, it isn't easy to win. This puts him in a good looking spot against just about everyone bar Diddy, Sheik, Rosa.

7. Donkey Kong
obviously going up. By how much? I don't know. Once we start seeing players handle his specials in "smarter" ways, it'll be a lot easier to gauge.

8. Greninja
Now officially "potential tier" for the rest of time until he's top 5. Ughh, what a weird character. Why do you even suck? I don't understand. He's the lowest rated (previously) character I have which I want to believe the potential.

9. Bowser Jr
Kinda like MK, I feel he naturally sets what separates a low from middle tier character. Balance hasn't been too kind to him, although he is an option-diverse character with tournament results. Take away his ability to combo reliably 0-80% and you get left with a mess though and that's the drama he's going to deal with forever: negative kill set ups.

10. Wii Fit
Still the most beautifully designed joke character of all time, customs + really good dodge specs makes me think there's more available than what a bottom tier suggests.

Anywho, I"ll probably reshuffle things around, hear some extra thoughts and then do another list to correlate to my current opinions.
Can I just pretend Miis are all 1111 still? Thanks! :p
Oh and Lucario is still awful. Why play Lucario when you can play Doctor Mario? I swear you'll be getting destroyed more often off stage/recovering with Lucario than Doc :p
[Reminder that I thank the heavens Lucario is awful though, rage is likely the mechanic that will soil this game in the long term competitively and Lucario is the poster child of what a terrible terrible thing "passives" like this actually are to design and good game play].
Jigglypuff has one amazing special move. That's SideB, for its insane shield damage. Other than that, I agree the game engine and meta changes were pretty negative overall for Jiggs.

The things that most people fail to realize about Doc is because his short hop is lower than Mario's, this is the reason why his defensive spacing game is noticeably more consistent than Mario's. Mario has problems of basically all of his SH aerials whiffing in neutral against anyone who is not explicitly really tall, and to be frank, his matchups are probably grossly overrated until people factor that (doesn't help that most of the taller characters also tend to be a lot more damaging and long ranged than Mario). With Doc, you can actually do immediate SH aerials against short characters like Diddy and Ness and have it connect. Especially considering Doc's B-air does a whopping 14%, this honestly a really massive advantage to justify playing him. And one of the things I'm realizing about Doc that's so valuable is actually being able to edgeguard low. Like...seriously. Against a Mario, all you need to do to frustrate him is ledge reset because he has almost no way to kill you for doing it if you ledge tech the desperate B-air. Doc in contrast will murder you for recovering low with Tornado, D-air, and his superior Super Sheet gimps.

Honestly, I'm a firm believer that Bowser Jr. is clearly underrated as one of the few characters with legitimately good offense in a largely spacing/wait oriented meta. He has the same problem as Pac-Man. A good grab would legitimately break him, but even without it, his mixups on shield and his KO confirms are actually pretty scary. There's the threat of Mechakoopa zoning which has its setups, Jr's grossly disjointed aerials and Up-B for edgeguarding, and at high percents, you can literally Kart -> Up-B -> Hammer and it will combo. Learned this the hard way playing against @V1cegrip. Another thing that's super underrated in Jr is his ridiculous ledge trap game. Easily the best character in the game at killing you for doing a traditional ledge getup with that U-smash.
 
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Antonykun

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As far as I know Charizard is the ultimate punching bag. He is practically guaranteed to recover if he isn't KOed on top of being heavy so he feeds off rage more than most people.
 

Fatmanonice

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I think if MK wasn't included in Super Smash until its 4th iteration, more people now would see him as a borderline high tier character with lots of potential. Alas, we've seen the extent of Brawl MK, and many people still look more at what he can't do anymore rather than what he's capable of doing with the new engine/mechanics.
Think this is turning around though. When SSB4 first came out, a lot of people simply wrote off a lot of the high tier characters from Brawl because they weren't exactly the same as before. Now that some time has passed, I've seen a lot of people pick up Marth, Olimar, Metaknight, and Wario and start experimenting with characters like Game and Watch, Falco, and Dedede to try to make them better. Some characters, like Olimar and Wario, have really bounced back after people got over the "they're not as good as they were in Brawl therefore they're total garbage" mentality and started to seriously train with them.
 

AvariceX

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I've seen at least 4 posts in the last few pages citing WFT's excellent air dodge and I need to point something out. While it's true that she used to have the best air dodge in the game by a wide margin, it was nerfed way back in the 1.04 patch to have basically the same landing recovery as everyone else (from 12 frames originally to 22 frames now).
 

HeavyLobster

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what are peoples opinions on our favorite giraffe necked lizard, charizard? i feel that he's one of the better heavies of the game, owing to a generally better neutral game than most because of flamethrower and movement speed, a great "get off me" move in jab and fly, a great nair to cover movement options with flamethrower, and the ability to prevent attempts to reset to neutral via flare blitz. also, charizard has an amazing air to air game(if you're above him, you get hit with uair, if you're behind him, hold this bair, if you're infront of him, hold that meaty fair) further aided by the ability to change his direction with his 2 jumps. he also has an amazing offstage game, for the following reasons. with customs on, he also performs better in disadvantage than other heavies, because dragon rush is such a safe option.
Zard is the heavy I feel is most able to work around classic heavy weaknesses. He's the second most durable character in the game next to Dedede, and is much more able than Dedede to avoid taking silly amounts of free damage off of juggles/combos. With Dragon Rush he can recover pretty reliably without taking self-inflicted damage, and he's also not actually horribly big for his weight, especially heightwise. However, his classic heavy strengths are a bit tame compared to some of the other options out there. His range overall isn't as good as the other heavies, though he does have a couple of good spacing moves that sort of remedy this. He doesn't have anything like Bowser's quick KOs or Ganon's damage strings, and while his advantaged state is good, especially his edgeguarding, it's not quite as devastating as that of some of his obese brethren. It's still quite good compared to the rest of the cast, and the trade-offs you make with Charizard compared to the other heavies tend to be winning ones, much like the changes Ike underwent from Brawl to Smash 4. I'm feeling him as a solid mid-tier with customs.
 

Road Death Wheel

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alright, be honest, the moment you saw charizards bad airspeed and somewhat lower damage output compared to other heavies, you wrote him off. i bet that 90% of the people who think zard's bad did that.
?
I use ganon the most out of all the heavys air speed is not the case. And i would not consider charazards damage output bad.

i just feel like zard is clunky and awkward.

i guess this is kinda wierd coming from a samus secondary. so im willing to yeild that i simply have not practiced with zard enough.
 

Terotrous

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With the talk about customs. Who are the characters who benefit the least from them?
Yoshi and Diddy both have 1111 as their best set for virtually all matchups so they gain almost nothing. I'm actually kind of worried for Yoshi because we never see him in tournaments as is and when he drops 2 tiers because of customs you can probably say goodbye to everybody's favourite green dino.


Edit: Wow, Mewtwo's old Nair Spark would be great for this.
Mewtwo's Nair is a godlike move in every game, even Melee.


alright, be honest, the moment you saw charizards bad airspeed and somewhat lower damage output compared to other heavies, you wrote him off. i bet that 90% of the people who think zard's bad did that.
I wrote Charizard off when I saw 20+ frame landing lag on all aerials on an aerial-focused character.

If they would just give Fair and Bair reasonable autocancel frames I think he'd be a really solid character, unfortunately Charizard still needs to sit down and rest for a bit every time he does a jumping attack.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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If they would just give Fair and Bair reasonable autocancel frames I think he'd be a really solid character, unfortunately Charizard still needs to sit down and rest for a bit every time he does a jumping attack.
u mean short hop at least correct?
 

Smog Frog

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Yoshi and Diddy both have 1111 as their best set for virtually all matchups so they gain almost nothing. I'm actually kind of worried for Yoshi because we never see him in tournaments as is and when he drops 2 tiers because of customs you can probably say goodbye to everybody's favourite green dino.



Mewtwo's Nair is a godlike move in every game, even Melee.



I wrote Charizard off when I saw 20+ frame landing lag on all aerials on an aerial-focused character.

If they would just give Fair and Bair reasonable autocancel frames I think he'd be a really solid character, unfortunately Charizard still needs to sit down and rest for a bit every time he does a jumping attack.
?aerial focused? what makes you think he's aerial focused? the flying type?

he's not aerial focused. he has good grounded options(jab, grab, usmash to name a few). he also uses sh nair, which autocancels and combos into that meaty 12% jab and tipper ftlt. you dont do air-ground with charizard, unless its sh nair(even then i consider anything sh to be a simple extension of a grounded game, but just calling this part of the air since yknow).
 

Antonykun

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The fire/flying glass cannon is a ground based wall, I don't even.
 

Terotrous

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?aerial focused? what makes you think he's aerial focused? the flying type?
Mainly the fact that he plays this way in PM, where he's a way better character.

His aerials have amazing hitboxes and power, the problem is that most of them are too slow to use. Even nair doesn't autocancel as early as I'd like, you have to do it so early in your short hop to get the autocancel that the hitbox isn't usually where I'd like it to be.
 

Ludiloco

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The fire/flying glass cannon is a ground based wall, I don't even.
Not even a cannon, just glass lol

Now if we're talking mega charizards I will back down from that statement. But regular charizard is trash mane

All other Pokemon in Smash are represented accurately minus the fact that Lucario is pretty bulky compared to his actual base stats. So what happened with Charizard Sakurai lol
 
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Ludiloco

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solar power zard had a niche

*cough* in the black and white meta
Sneaky pebbles

Ninja nuggets

Silent shrapnel

Quiet quarry

etc.

(I know there are many 4x weak mons that operate well in the meta even with stealth rocks being a thing, just an obligatory joke at this point lol)
 
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Terotrous

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We have a belly drum charizard with max def/hp in smash :3

The only explanation
I'm pretty sure Smash4 Charizard is Brave nature (+Atk, -Spd), 252 Atk, 252 HP, 4 Def. Dude takes and gives out a beating, but damn is he ever slow.

Funny how the best Pokemon in this game are the ones that are really fast, just like in the Pokemon meta.
 
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Quickhero

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Man this Charizard stuff is actually getting me pretty excited. I'm just imagining a Smash tournament where they only allow Lower Mid and below to be allowed and just thinking about how cool it would be to see something like that.

I wouldn't want it to have an official tournament scene, but when tiers for each character are defined and the metagame starts to form, (which won't be until at least 6 months after EVO) holy crap I want to see something like that set up on a local level.
 
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Ludiloco

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Man this Charizard stuff is actually getting me pretty excited. I'm just imagining a Smash tournament where they only allow Lower Mid and below to be allowed and just thinking about how cool it would be to see something like that.

I wouldn't want it to have an official tournament scene, but when tiers for each character are defined and the metagame starts to form, (which won't be until at least 6 months after EVO) holy crap I want to see something like that set up on a local level.
It definitely wouldn't have an official tournament scene, and obviously it couldn't happen until a set-in-stone tierlist is released later on into the meta.

But I would absolutely love it as a D3 main, I've had the idea before and it would be so much fun to discuss low-tier matchups you don't hear about often. Like, who talks about the intricacies of the Dedede-Wii Fit matchup? Nobody, but I've played it many times and it's super fun.

Um no, Zard is fully evolved and thus Eviolite has no effect.
m8 r u 4 real
 
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Smooth Criminal

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But I would absolutely love it as a D3 main, I've had the idea before and it would be so much fun to discuss low-tier matchups you don't hear about often. Like, who talks about the intricacies of the Dedede-Wii Fit matchup? Nobody, but I've played it many times and it's super fun.
Yeah, fun for D3. Not Wii Fit.

:3

Smooth Criminal
 
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