Character Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

I was thinking recently about how just about every character with poor horizontal aerial movement has some special move that lets them compensate for it. Fox and Falco have their Illusion and Phantasm, Diddy Kong has Monkey Flip, even Dedede arguably has Super Dedede Jump. I wonder, if these characters didn't have those horizontal movement tools, how much would their ranks drop?

 

[Timbers]

I was thinking recently about how just about every character with poor horizontal aerial movement has some special move that lets them compensate for it. Fox and Falco have their Illusion and Phantasm, Diddy Kong has Monkey Flip, even Dedede arguably has Super Dedede Jump. I wonder, if these characters didn't have those horizontal movement tools, how much would their ranks drop?

These are also their main forms of recovering. Are we giving them better upB recoveries to compensate? Fox/Falco being forced into upB, as well as Diddy, would give them one of the worst recoveries in the game. I disagree that DDD's upB should be noted for horizontal movement, it's primarily vertical movement.

 

[David Viran]

On the subject of Ike vs. Shulk, Ike's normals are better than Shulk's normals. I realized about a month into learning Shulk that there was little real gain to be had from mastering his rather complex Monado art rotation and tricks relative to just learning a better character; his normals hold him back no matter how good you are at abusing the strengths that Monado arts give him. Also, one of the reasons that I used to think that Shulk is very good is that Smash Monado gives him a KO throw, but in reality it often also gives his opponent a KO throw, or strengthens existing KO throws (Smash Monado Shulk vs. Ness in particular is striking because it becomes a 50:50 coinflip scenario of who grabs whom first).

If there were a Monado Art that adjusted Shulk's frame data (like made the startup on n-air be frame 4, for instance, or reduced endlag on all of his smashes/tilts), he'd be a contender for the game's best. Right now, my view on Shulk is that he's somewhere in the middle of the cast, with the potential to be in the upper half.

My view on Ike has not changed. He's much better than people give him credit for, especially with customs. A heavy with disjoints, a midrange burst punish option (Close Combat), top-tier edgeguarding (Tempest + Aether Drive + sword range), combos, and KO power? #don't be blind, customs Ike is really, really good. If he's not top 10 at least I'll eat my shoe.

There was some Pikachu talk as well... there seems to some misinformation going around about Pikachu's playstyle and matchups. The idea of Rosalina and Sonic beating Pikachu, as proposed by @Amazing Ampharos, seems quite left of center to me (though I respect all opinions); these are two of Pikachu's easiest matchups in my experience/opinion, with Falcon and Duck Hunt being the absolute easiest for him in the game--the ZSS MU is closer to even once ZSS players get over the fear of short characters.

If I had to rate Pikachu's matchups, the scale from hardest to easiest looks something like this:

Hardest




--gap--





--gap--
(most other characters go here)






Easiest

What the ratios here are I won't go over, because we can have contention on that for days. But this has been my experience.

That how I feel about the zss pika MU also. People blow it put of proportion because of crouching but zss still has ALMOST all her good moves in neutral like nair, Bair, ftilt, maybe dtilt could be useful idk, dsmash, and grab . I still think crouching is bs sometimes.

 

[Nobie]

These are also their main forms of recovering. Are we giving them better upB recoveries to compensate? Fox/Falco being forced into upB, as well as Diddy, would give them one of the worst recoveries in the game. I disagree that DDD's upB should be noted for horizontal movement, it's primarily vertical movement.

Either a better Up B or a Side B that's weaker in some way (can only be used once in the air, for example).

 

[Jaxas]

That how I feel about the zss pika MU also. People blow it put of proportion because of crouching but zss still has ALMOST all her good moves in neutral like nair, Bair, ftilt, maybe dtilt could be useful idk, dsmash, and grab . I still think crouching is bs sometimes.

I feel like it is actually a pretty big deal (not as big as most claim though, for sure), mostly because you can't use ZSS' amazing F1 jab. No grounded string-breaking, no Jab OoS (Boost Kick still hits, though!), etc.
If Dtilt was faster I'd care a lot less, but it isn't and I don't believe it's safe on shield either, especially not against QA

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I was thinking recently about how just about every character with poor horizontal aerial movement has some special move that lets them compensate for it. Fox and Falco have their Illusion and Phantasm, Diddy Kong has Monkey Flip, even Dedede arguably has Super Dedede Jump. I wonder, if these characters didn't have those horizontal movement tools, how much would their ranks drop?

ill ask the opposite how much would one rise if had said option

*cough* bowser *cough* charazard *cough* marth.

 

[David Viran]

I feel like it is actually a pretty big deal (not as big as most claim though, for sure), mostly because you can't use ZSS' amazing F1 jab. No grounded string-breaking, no Jab OoS (Boost Kick still hits, though!), etc.
If Dtilt was faster I'd care a lot less, but it isn't and I don't believe it's safe on shield either, especially not against QA

Keep in mind if he wants to duck under jab he has to read it because he can duck but maybe the zss decides a hard read up b or just ftilt and pika gets hit. Also jab 2 will still hit Pikachu.

 

[Jaxas]

Keep in mind if he wants to duck under jab he has to read it because he can duck but maybe the zss decides a hard read up b or just ftilt and pika gets hit. Also jab 2 will still hit Pikachu.

All right, I honestly thought it just whiffed; are you sure it doesn't if he's Dashing, for example?

The OoS thing still stands though; screw that freaking Fair landing animation...
At least the last hit is super laggy so it's Boost Kickable

 

[Shaya]

Supremely Spicy:
Aptitude Accelerated:
Bonkers Bases:

Monando Boys + Peach & Regular Pit:
Indiscriminate cutthroats; very affordable:

"take stocks easy right? but sir did you know my plight? elongated death":
"at least there's a better version of me somewhere in the cast, right?":
(scaly *******, fat king, anti-everyone aerial fiend, naked, fish queen, so many puffballs, ESRB rating All Ages requires blunted edges on all swords, doesn't cover discarded needles and scimitars)

Despite common belief, Snake's essence wasn't split between Duck Hunt and Little Mac. At the very least, his hitboxes were shared between Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. A video from ZeRo is pretty good for backing up a known message, but Falcon is pretty bull ****. At the very least his jab single handedly shuts down most of the cast. Can I win matches with just sh ff spacing + jab? Yes, yes I can. So can you. Ganondorf is god; simply put, he's Falcon with less mobility but like 30% more power; can you hit someone with Falcon? You can probably hit someone with Ganondorf and you only need to do so half to 1/3rd as often as Falcon, EZ MODE. I think Ganon will share a spot/niche similar to his Melee counterpart in this game, even if that "level" is lower comparatively to said tier position from then.
Oh and around now is the perfect time to mention most things aren't ordered, but some things are.

Bonker's Crab HURRR Day is pretty expansive, but it kinda has to be. Obviously some characters shine a bit more than others in both results and general opinion, but there's lots of questions to be asked. Is Ness 'defeated'? Doesn't Olimar beat everyone in this tier? Can't you gimp Falcon's recovery? Shouldn't Fox be with Peach and Regular Pit "KYIIIIIIKK"? Does Megaman kill people outside of power shield up tilt, bair or gimmicks? Isn't Villager spicy enough with customs? Time will tell.

@ Cassio I don't think it's unfair at all. Every situation another character in the game has to decide on a defensive option Pikachu can just do nothing and comes out with less risk and feasibly more reward, it's pretty brain dead and you know it. Then when the opponent is down to only 1 or 2 moves in their entire arsenal that can 'work' and Pika chooses a defensive option because those two actions are that obvious? It really is shallow and does nothing but add binary conditions to his match ups. Pikachu is degenerative and fortunately binary-characters are destined to lose to binary reverse conditions, which is most of the good characters in the cast still. I don't think Sheik's ground game is something to scoff at either, Sheik doesn't live to forward air (it's good as a reactive punish that chains into things^^) when her grounded options are second to none. But no, Pikachu's ground game isn't amazing, it's very good though, but poor pivots, no jab, "awkward" dash attack (one of his best moves still) are only compensated so much by Invincible-Tilt (uptilt) and an otherwise telegraphed down tilt/dash grab scenario.
If it wasn't for Sheik, we'd probably be seeing a lot more Pikachu because of just how simple a character he is to beat most of the cast with. Pika's impact on the meta is yet to be felt but I don't think it'll be long lasting once it happens because I'm adamant this character just relies on passive things being given to him for free.

And on the point of ZSS vs Pikachu? Not too fussed about it personally, played it enough times to know that if it wasn't for Quick-Attack it would be a hard counter
for us. 50% is death percent for Pika and ZSS can play mobile-games very well to "wait" for the opportunity. But it's still unfortunately an abusive match up for Pika.

Oh and Sheik's forward smash is actually secretly stupid.
And it's only secret because it's been a terrible move for two and a half games already. But now?
Hit someone near a ledge with it and take your sub-100% stocks (don't forget fairing, sour spot bair or power shield punishing for setting up into it; seems pretty decent against most dodges too), I guarantee you'll be astounded.

 

[Smog Frog]

Supremely Spicy:
Aptitude Accelerated:
Bonkers Bases:

Monando Boys + Peach & Regular Pit:
Indiscriminate cutthroats; very affordable:

"take stocks easy right? but sir did you know my plight? elongated death":
"at least there's a better version of me somewhere in the cast, right?":
(scaly *******, fat king, anti-everyone aerial fiend, naked, fish queen, so many puffballs, ESRB rating All Ages requires blunted edges on all swords, doesn't cover discarded needles and scimitars)

Despite common belief, Snake's essence wasn't split between Duck Hunt and Little Mac. At the very least, his hitboxes were shared between Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. A video from ZeRo is pretty good for backing up a known message, but Falcon is pretty bull ****. At the very least his jab single handedly shuts down most of the cast. Can I win matches with just sh ff spacing + jab? Yes, yes I can. So can you. Ganondorf is god; simply put, he's Falcon with less mobility but like 30% more power; can you hit someone with Falcon? You can probably hit someone with Ganondorf and you only need to do so half to 1/3rd as often as Falcon, EZ MODE. I think Ganon will share a spot/niche similar to his Melee counterpart in this game, even if that "level" is lower comparatively to said tier position from then.
Oh and around now is the perfect time to mention most things aren't ordered, but some things are.

Bonker's Crab HURRR Day is pretty expansive, but it kinda has to be. Obviously some characters shine a bit more than others in both results and general opinion, but there's lots of questions to be asked. Is Ness 'defeated'? Doesn't Olimar beat everyone in this tier? Can't you gimp Falcon's recovery? Shouldn't Fox be with Peach and Regular Pit "KYIIIIIIKK"? Does Megaman kill people outside of power shield up tilt, bair or gimmicks? Isn't Villager spicy enough with customs? Time will tell.

@ Cassio I don't think it's unfair at all. Every situation another character in the game has to decide on a defensive option Pikachu can just do nothing and comes out with less risk and feasibly more reward, it's pretty brain dead and you know it. Then when the opponent is down to only 1 or 2 moves in their entire arsenal that can 'work' and Pika chooses a defensive option because those two actions are that obvious? It really is shallow and does nothing but add binary conditions to his match ups. Pikachu is degenerative and fortunately binary-characters are destined to lose to binary reverse conditions, which is most of the good characters in the cast still. I don't think Sheik's ground game is something to scoff at either, Sheik doesn't live to forward air (it's good as a reactive punish that chains into things^^) when her grounded options are second to none. But no, Pikachu's ground game isn't amazing, it's very good though, but poor pivots, no jab, "awkward" dash attack (one of his best moves still) are only compensated so much by Invincible-Tilt (uptilt) and an otherwise telegraphed down tilt/dash grab scenario.
If it wasn't for Sheik, we'd probably be seeing a lot more Pikachu because of just how simple a character he is to beat most of the cast with. Pika's impact on the meta is yet to be felt but I don't think it'll be long lasting once it happens because I'm adamant this character just relies on passive things being given to him for free.

And on the point of ZSS vs Pikachu? Not too fussed about it personally, played it enough times to know that if it wasn't for Quick-Attack it would be a hard counter
for us. 50% is death percent for Pika and ZSS can play mobile-games very well to "wait" for the opportunity. But it's still unfortunately an abusive match up for Pika.

thats a good tier list until i saw zard at the bottom. put him up there with ganon and we gucci.

 

[Jaxas]

Best-named tier list

Is this customs on or off?

Anyways, is Boost Kick really just that useful against Pika? I haven't actually played the MU much (or possibly at all... don't think early 3DS counts, really), but if it's more than just that I'd love to know because we have a few local Pikas and now that I'm using ZSS I'd rather not hate that matchup...

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly by this point I can't even comment much on tier list because honestly outside of Diddy and Sheik and those who are the bottom, the gap between characters is so small it almost doesn't make a difference.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ganon? Mid?

Charizard? Bottom?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

thats a good tier list until i saw zard at the bottom. put him up there with ganon and we gucci.

There is a better scaly/reptilian creature in every category above, don't be selfish~
I like Zard but I don't know how he does anything but hope people challenge super armor head on. Bloodcross is the only solo main I'm aware of doing anything but he's an otherwise high/borderline top level player (extremely underrated in late Brawl) scraping good/average placements at tournaments but not really causing upsets (can't undermine his Apex performance though). Sheik fun times flared a lot of excitement that is seemingly extinguished. Anything I'm missing?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...Ganon? Mid?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Smog Frog]

There is a better scaly/reptilian creature in every category above, don't be selfish~
I like Zard but I don't know how he does anything but hope people challenge super armor head on. Bloodcross is the only solo main I'm aware of doing anything but he's an otherwise high/borderline top level player scraping good/average placements at tournaments but not really causing upsets (can't undermine his Apex performance though). Sheik fun times flared a lot of excitement that is seemingly extinguished. Anything I'm missing?

you dont spam your super armor unless you're bat**** ********. you use flamethrower, jab, nair, and your amazing oos options(up b and usmash<3) your jab has such a big range and comes out so fast that its the move you'll use most of the time.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Supremely Spicy:
Aptitude Accelerated:
Bonkers Bases:

Monando Boys + Peach & Regular Pit:
Indiscriminate cutthroats; very affordable:

"take stocks easy right? but sir did you know my plight? elongated death":
"at least there's a better version of me somewhere in the cast, right?":
(scaly *******, fat king, anti-everyone aerial fiend, naked, fish queen, so many puffballs, ESRB rating All Ages requires blunted edges on all swords, doesn't cover discarded needles and scimitars)

Despite common belief, Snake's essence wasn't split between Duck Hunt and Little Mac. At the very least, his hitboxes were shared between Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. A video from ZeRo is pretty good for backing up a known message, but Falcon is pretty bull ****. At the very least his jab single handedly shuts down most of the cast. Can I win matches with just sh ff spacing + jab? Yes, yes I can. So can you. Ganondorf is god; simply put, he's Falcon with less mobility but like 30% more power; can you hit someone with Falcon? You can probably hit someone with Ganondorf and you only need to do so half to 1/3rd as often as Falcon, EZ MODE. I think Ganon will share a spot/niche similar to his Melee counterpart in this game, even if that "level" is lower comparatively to said tier position from then.
Oh and around now is the perfect time to mention most things aren't ordered, but some things are.

Bonker's Crab HURRR Day is pretty expansive, but it kinda has to be. Obviously some characters shine a bit more than others in both results and general opinion, but there's lots of questions to be asked. Is Ness 'defeated'? Doesn't Olimar beat everyone in this tier? Can't you gimp Falcon's recovery? Shouldn't Fox be with Peach and Regular Pit "KYIIIIIIKK"? Does Megaman kill people outside of power shield up tilt, bair or gimmicks? Isn't Villager spicy enough with customs? Time will tell.

@ Cassio I don't think it's unfair at all. Every situation another character in the game has to decide on a defensive option Pikachu can just do nothing and comes out with less risk and feasibly more reward, it's pretty brain dead and you know it. Then when the opponent is down to only 1 or 2 moves in their entire arsenal that can 'work' and Pika chooses a defensive option because those two actions are that obvious? It really is shallow and does nothing but add binary conditions to his match ups. Pikachu is degenerative and fortunately binary-characters are destined to lose to binary reverse conditions, which is most of the good characters in the cast still. I don't think Sheik's ground game is something to scoff at either, Sheik doesn't live to forward air (it's good as a reactive punish that chains into things^^) when her grounded options are second to none. But no, Pikachu's ground game isn't amazing, it's very good though, but poor pivots, no jab, "awkward" dash attack (one of his best moves still) are only compensated so much by Invincible-Tilt (uptilt) and an otherwise telegraphed down tilt/dash grab scenario.
If it wasn't for Sheik, we'd probably be seeing a lot more Pikachu because of just how simple a character he is to beat most of the cast with. Pika's impact on the meta is yet to be felt but I don't think it'll be long lasting once it happens because I'm adamant this character just relies on passive things being given to him for free.

And on the point of ZSS vs Pikachu? Not too fussed about it personally, played it enough times to know that if it wasn't for Quick-Attack it would be a hard counter
for us. 50% is death percent for Pika and ZSS can play mobile-games very well to "wait" for the opportunity. But it's still unfortunately an abusive match up for Pika.

Oh and Sheik's forward smash is actually secretly stupid.
And it's only secret because it's been a terrible move for two and a half games already. But now?
Hit someone near a ledge with it and take your sub-100% stocks (don't forget fairing, sour spot bair or power shield punishing for setting up into it; seems pretty decent against most dodges too), I guarantee you'll be astounded.

Is this tier list with customs on?
If so, mii gunner and sword fighter may deserve to be a bit higher.

 

[Shaya]

I don't like to think there's a bottom tier there, either way.
Captain Falcon is broken, hence Ganondorf is broken.
This is the logical times we live in.

Most of the cast fears Ganon (for every frame of reaction speed you "take away" from a player, I think you effectively double the fear necessary from 15 frames onwards). This is a heavily buffed version of Brawl Ganondorf without his weaknesses in recovery, suicide moves working against him and being cg'd to death by everyone chipping away at his exterior. When you get hit by an up smash at 60%, you die; I don't think people appreciate enough where Snake's up tilt now resides with twice it's kill power (and about half of it's end lag). There's so much respect one has to give to a Ganondorf shielding due to his extensively good array of punishment options that he kinda gets away with just walking in against most of the cast.

Customs on, or at the least in general consideration.

you dont spam your super armor unless you're bat**** ********. you use flamethrower, jab, nair, and your amazing oos options(up b and usmash<3) your jab has such a big range and comes out so fast that its the move you'll use most of the time.

Who ever said spamming anything? What does Zard wish works the most to get him victories?
Nair isn't that good (dash through him).
Flamethrower is alright, but doesn't make him a beast.
Jab, Up-B and USmash are pretty scary.

I do come from a PT in Brawl background, I probably underrate.

 

[Deathcarter]

Is this customs on or off?

Dude do you see DK and Palutena's placement? Definitely customs.

 

[Smog Frog]

if thats customs on zard cant be bottom. thats just a fact.

 

[HeavyLobster]

There's so much respect one has to give to a Ganondorf shielding due to his extensively good array of punishment options that he kinda gets away with just walking in against most of the cast.

Ganon has one of the worst OoS games in the whole roster. It's actually a significant weakness given his frame 8 jab and Trex arms. He deters approaches with big, scary, deadly hitboxes, not OoS punishes.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena here's a custom tournament

 

[Shaya]

Ganon has one of the worst OoS games in the whole roster. It's actually a significant weakness given his frame 8 jab and Trex arms. He deters approaches with big, scary, deadly hitboxes, not OoS punishes.

Not OoS punishes as much as OoS cleanly beating your next choice, letting yourself get cornered towards an edge isn't fun/smart either. Pick your death-bringing poison, dash attack or side-b. Bair/Nair/Uair OoS are god amazing in a meta that's prioritising cross ups.

Ganon outranges most of the cast, something you shouldn't be forgetting. I'm personally not willing to play against this character in tournament with anyone bar ZSS (who deduces his option spread to sour spot dash attack only; based zairs/nairs, down-b escapes and grab extending past his obscene shield push back), if you have to take any risks as a character against Ganondorf, I don't think it's worth it lol.

 

[Neoleo21]

Ganon has one of the worst OoS games in the whole roster. It's actually a significant weakness given his frame 8 jab and Trex arms. He deters approaches with big, scary, deadly hitboxes, not OoS punishes.

But he gets Dark Fists which is an amazing OoS option. That doesn't change his other stuff but that one move is ridiculous in what it does for his shield game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Ganon is a monster if he can adapt. I've lost matches to him that I was on the verge of JV 2 stocking because I felt like the King of Evil was reading my freaking mind.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

"at least there's a better version of me somewhere in the cast, right?":

*sad face*

 

[incrediblej]

But he gets Dark Fists which is an amazing OoS option. That doesn't change his other stuff but that one move is ridiculous in what it does for his shield game.

Which is actual good for his play style needs more Oos options since he's a read character
Edit:
@ Road Death Wheel
aren't samus missile custom good

 

[Shaya]

*sad face*

*is that all? face*


I'll admit to not knowing the full scope of Zard's customs in competitive context; but to an end, they close gaps between distinctions more so than definitively making characters better. Zard's tools haven't really expanded since Brawl in my mind nor from my experiences and customs that people get hyped for can only sway me when they show some consistency.
I am glad the characters which I am most conscientious over are oft the ones inciting the most questions/arguments/responses (I toiled the most over heavies in relation to where they are probably most suited). I wonder which way the churn actually travels.

 

[A2ZOMG]

But he gets Dark Fists which is an amazing OoS option. That doesn't change his other stuff but that one move is ridiculous in what it does for his shield game.

Dark Fists is a terrible OOS option...if you're using this move out of shield, you evidently don't understand what Super Armor is for.

@ Shaya I still think you're probably underselling Bowser Jr. He kinda has some of Sonic's mobility, but hits more like Ganondorf instead. People really gotta respect Jr when he attacks due to his range and damage, and I cited some legitimate KO confirms that I don't think you really accounted for. His edge trapping with U-smash is top tier, Kart -> Up-B -> Hammer at KO%s is a combo, and then there's item tossing and Mechakoopa zoning shenanigans which are certainly useful. Not to mention disjointed deep edgeguards.

I have intentions to upload matches against @V1cegrip. He has me convinced the character has potential.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Customs on and Ike that low?

wat

The only weakness he keeps is being juggled, but even that's lessened a tad.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

*is that all? face*

well i could go on another rant and garbage but honestly i already know what speaks the loudest is results.


witch is why im extreamly skeptical of all dis yoshi top 10 crap.

samus will only change when people start to put in work with her. that might take a bit (well more like melee jiggs) so im completly happy just correcting false information on the character.

ps. i did catch the joke. actually made me laugh.

 

[Shaya]

Customs on and Ike that low?

wat

The only weakness he keeps is being juggled, but even that's lessened a tad.

He pretty much is a Monando Boy, good point. But I'm yet to be aware of Customs Ike existing outside the realms of this thread. Like, I'd probably find more custom charizard stuff to reference. Rating Ike through his normals and an assumption he's feasibly better seems fine. Just because he can do more doesn't mean he achieves more. There's been instantaneous impacts of customs for Villager, DK, Palutena and even WiiFit, but there's Ike fans previously boasting top 5 with customs with 0 apex attendance and 2-3 relatively quiet players otherwise.

 

[Kofu]

A bit late to the party, but you want my honest opinion on Charizard? I think that instead of properly balancing him or just letting him deal with some of his weaknesses (like Dedede), they gave him various "cheats" and jank stuff to compensate.

Let me list the ways:

• His hurtbox is constantly less than what it appears, as part of his wings and tail are perpetually intangible. This really isn't a big issue since he still has the widest hurbox in the game (or at least he's the only one to take three hits from Metal Blade) so I'm more or less okay with this.
• His Forward Smash has a window of invincibility. Forget Little Mac's Super Armor, let's go all the way with invincibility! Granted, it's short, and it seems superfluous since there's not a lot that invincibility covers that an attack that meaty doesn't anyway.
• An EXTREMELY large grab range coupled with a good dash speed and 3 killing throws (though FThrow overlaps with DThrow).
• Super Armor on Rock Smash/Rock Hurl. Sure, it helps him land, but considering he has a second midair jump, that's probably nothing a slight buff to his airspeed wouldn't help with already.
• An Up-B with Super Armor that kills obscenely early. People fall out of it frequently, but it kind of feels like overkill as an OoS option.

I guess this is kind of a complaint list, but it's also me saying that I find Charizard's design to be kind of shoddy and shallow. I really can't place him because sometimes he feels really strong, and in others he feels extremely weak.

Not unrelated to Charizard: heavies definitely feel like they have the biggest range on average of all characters, which is probably a good thing.

 

[Nu~]

Customs on and falcon is at the top of high tier?
Ehhhh...
I also think you're underselling Pac-Man. Without customs I see him as low high tier, but with freaky fruit shenanigans (kill confirms, projectile eating galaxian, Z droppable meteor key, instant hydrant launches with a z drop melon) and disgusting traps in the form of meteor trampoline and on-fire hydrant...

It is very hard to believe that he is in mid tier.

 

[Shaya]

Customs on and falcon is at the top of high tier?
Ehhhh...
I also think you're underselling Pac-Man. Without customs I see him as low high tier, but with freaky fruit shenanigans (kill confirms, projectile eating galaxian, Z droppable meteor key, instant hydrant launches with a z drop melon) and disgusting traps in the form of meteor trampoline and on-fire hydrant...

It is very hard to believe that he is in mid tier.

Some things are ordered while others are not =) It's the biggest trap of all of my lists.
Bonkers Tier is a party and nearly everyone's invited.
Except bad characters.
Considering how highly I rate MK (I actually do), I think being in his tier is a pretty good sign of my confidence in their abilities
I've seen a bit of customs pac too and he's extremely dangerous. Could probably join bonkers tier with one high level main showing up~ I don't think increased reasons for Rosalina or Villagers to show up bode well for him though.

well i could go on another rant and garbage but honestly i already know what speaks the loudest is results.


witch is why im extreamly skeptical of all dis yoshi top 10 crap.

samus will only change when people start to put in work with her. that might take a bit (well more like melee jiggs) so im completly happy just correcting false information on the character.

ps. i did catch the joke. actually made me laugh.

I would instantaneously place this character 2-3 tiers higher if her Up-B wasn't buggy/actually killed. There's just too many times that things happen that feel like you should've died for but just.. it didn't work? She feels like she's suffering 3DS Olimar disease.

Glad you liked it~

 

[TTTTTsd]

Supremely Spicy:
Aptitude Accelerated:
Bonkers Bases:

Monando Boys + Peach & Regular Pit:
Indiscriminate cutthroats; very affordable:

"take stocks easy right? but sir did you know my plight? elongated death":
"at least there's a better version of me somewhere in the cast, right?":
(scaly *******, fat king, anti-everyone aerial fiend, naked, fish queen, so many puffballs, ESRB rating All Ages requires blunted edges on all swords, doesn't cover discarded needles and scimitars)

Hey, you got Dr. Mario in the right spot on this list! Although if you're CONSIDERING customs, I (at this moment) would nudge him to around Ike/Robin-ish area. If this list is mostly speaking WITHOUT customs (to my knowledge it is as we haven't investigated customs thoroughly and there's not a large influx of Doc mains) then he's basically in the spot I'd see him in, maybe 2-3 spots lower but it's close and it's hard to tell really.

 

[thehard]

Customs on and falcon is at the top of high tier?
Ehhhh...
I also think you're underselling Pac-Man. Without customs I see him as low high tier, but with freaky fruit shenanigans (kill confirms, projectile eating galaxian, Z droppable meteor key, instant hydrant launches with a z drop melon) and disgusting traps in the form of meteor trampoline and on-fire hydrant...

It is very hard to believe that he is in mid tier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q2tpmAjBf8 No customs but this is really cool!

 

[Nu~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q2tpmAjBf8 No customs but this is really cool!

Yup! When I saw that, I was super hyped!
And then to know that you can do the same thing with the side B
http://youtu.be/dP2LQDtm_oM

 

[Cassio]

I don't think it's unfair at all. Every situation another character in the game has to decide on a defensive option Pikachu can just do nothing and comes out with less risk and feasibly more reward, it's pretty brain dead and you know it. Then when the opponent is down to only 1 or 2 moves in their entire arsenal that can 'work' and Pika chooses a defensive option because those two actions are that obvious? It really is shallow and does nothing but add binary conditions to his match ups. Pikachu is degenerative and fortunately binary-characters are destined to lose to binary reverse conditions, which is most of the good characters in the cast still. I don't think Sheik's ground game is something to scoff at either, Sheik doesn't live to forward air (it's good as a reactive punish that chains into things^^) when her grounded options are second to none. But no, Pikachu's ground game isn't amazing, it's very good though, but poor pivots, no jab, "awkward" dash attack (one of his best moves still) are only compensated so much by Invincible-Tilt (uptilt) and an otherwise telegraphed down tilt/dash grab scenario.
If it wasn't for Sheik, we'd probably be seeing a lot more Pikachu because of just how simple a character he is to beat most of the cast with. Pika's impact on the meta is yet to be felt but I don't think it'll be long lasting once it happens because I'm adamant this character just relies on passive things being given to him for free.

And on the point of ZSS vs Pikachu? Not too fussed about it personally, played it enough times to know that if it wasn't for Quick-Attack it would be a hard counter
for us. 50% is death percent for Pika and ZSS can play mobile-games very well to "wait" for the opportunity. But it's still unfortunately an abusive match up for Pika.

Oh and Sheik's forward smash is actually secretly stupid.
And it's only secret because it's been a terrible move for two and a half games already. But now?
Hit someone near a ledge with it and take your sub-100% stocks (don't forget fairing, sour spot bair or power shield punishing for setting up into it; seems pretty decent against most dodges too), I guarantee you'll be astounded.

What youre describing sounds like a feature of a good character in a fighting game, and compounded with his weight makes him a glass canon. Pikachu getting hit less in the situations youre describing when done correctly aren't brain-dead functions it actually requires thoughtful set-up to use his size to his advantage. I can agree that commonly in the current meta its being abused in a brain-dead way by preying on player inexperience (Every character in the cast should have a move that can punish backair on shield when its landed but I see pika get away with this very often), and pika players havent really commited to using their size intelligently. But you dont have to be sheik to punish a mistake Im certain virtually any character is capable of it. Honestly QA is a better mechanic at escaping punishment, pikachu's size is something to take advantage of in neutral.

Sheik having a second to none ground game is a bit too vague for me so Im hoping youll elaborate, while I can best describe why I believe this isnt the cast. (In a more general sense, her ground game just doesnt seem near as potent as several other characters pikachu must fight who can challenge him there.)

I think the best way I can do this is through their head to head, I feel some characters may make Sheik's ground game look better then it is because there's few characters that can force her to play on the ground. To be more specific on what constitutes ground game, none of sheiks rising aerials will hit a standing pikachu besides a perfectly spaced fair (cant be too close or far) and none of them will hit a crouching chu, though fair is relevant enough to the ground game regardless. What does sheik do then? Her projectiles are laggy enough that camping isnt threatening and can be quick attacked, and her moveset gets outspaced by dtilt. Empty hop to reactive landing forward air was her best tool in this MU and that loses to forward roll badly (even worse then other characters because her backair angles upward). Not to mention that pikachus dtilt (in conjunction with QA) is one of the most powerful shield pressure tools in the game. [As soon as pikachu is in range of hitting his opponent with dtilt he's effectively created a 50/50 situation in his advantage. If they roll or spot dodge both lose to Quick Attack (if youre feeling gutsy and want to make a read instead then dash Usmash); if they shield drop they get dtilted; if they stay in shield they either eventually get shield poked or are in threat of a burst grab or other attack. Jumping away is an option, but isnt hard to punish especially in such a limited situation. The best hope is having a move that will hit pikachus crouching spaced dtilt. Some characters make it tough for pikachu to be in this range but Sheik is not one of those characters.] The MU doesnt boil down to dtilt or bust, but its one of those things where you sort of work towards getting there since it sets up such a strongly advantaged situation. Pikachu needs to insist on staying on the ground and not mindlessly challenging sheik in her SH aerial kingdom. I'm open to hearing what else sheik can do bc if there is a way for her to better handle this her metagame isnt there yet. I personally dont really see sheik as a threatening character for pikachu, but understand its also pretty early in the metagame.

Sheik fsmash is a good punishing move but its also kind of cheesy, in the sense that you forget its a thing until its too late. Maybe thats too negative an outlook on it so dont take it too seriously, but its only my suspicion that move hits less once people remember its a thing.

And Dash Attack is good but not one of his best ground moves, lol. In order Id say its something (roughly) like [Quick Attack, Grab, Dtilt, Roll, Utilt, Upsmash, Nair, Dair, Bair, Jolt, Ftilt Dash Attack, Side Smash, Spot Dodge, Dsmash, Skull Bash). It's still pretty good, but if it didnt have a set-up from fair itd be even more awkward.

 

[Antonykun]

Is it weird that after @Emblem Lord Shared that tidbit of knowledge on Swordfighter, I have hope for the little guy (You better not make them not little ).
It's probably that Attack on Titan hope that will just be nabbed from you in a few episodes.
Auto Cancel U-air is like a dream though. I now firmly believe Swordfighter has one of the best U-airs in the game (I originally thought so but then I remembered Falcon, Pika, Zss, Diddy, ect.)