Ludiloco
Smash Journeyman
Idk, I've played my friend who is a Wii Fit main a lot and he seems to enjoy the matchup. He likes playing my Villager more, though.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Character Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
- Status
Nobie
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2002
- Messages
- 2,251
- NNID
- SDShamshel
- 3DS FC
- 2809-8958-8223
As a Mega Man player, I often find it a bit odd when people complain about other characters' landing lag on aerials. While Mega Man's nair has the best recovery in the game when used correctly, when it comes to the rest of his kit he can't get more than one aerial out of a FULL HOP, let alone a short one.
warionumbah2
Smash Master
People that pick up MK recently(or at all) tend to drop him lol. The player base for MK won't rise as much even if more people did realize he's high tier.
Last edited:
HeavyLobster
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2014
- Messages
- 2,074
- NNID
- HeavyLobster43
Pokemon does usually have its share of slow characters that hold their own pretty well, though. Speed's become less important in recent gens with the rise of powerful priority users like Talonflame and Scizor to cut down fast frail mons.
Ludiloco
Smash Journeyman
imo speed is more likely to make a mon high tier than any other stat (especially if we consider priority speed). I'd say the comparison to smash is valid, there's just more complexity to pokemon because player skill isn't AS much of a factor in making a mon work
Last edited:
Grass
Smash Lord
I want to point something out. Sakurai will for sure balance Mewtwo to be near viable as the rest of the cast. So if anything, I can see Mewtwo being heavier than he was Melee. Let's assume all aspects of Mewtwo's iteration was identical to how he played in melee. What would you think then? Assuming hitboxes are adjusted and such.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
You either played MK in the last game and can't unlearn habits/don't enjoy nerfed feel, or you didn't play MK in the last game because man that must really, really not be your style at all because that character is good.
The best MK players would be the ones that skipped from Melee to Smash 4 or start playing smash with 4, theoretically. The ones that skip Melee for Smash 4 are more likely to prefer different style from MK, probably, too. So just that last tiny group, and then people in that last tiny group might happen to prefer something else anyway.
The best MK players would be the ones that skipped from Melee to Smash 4 or start playing smash with 4, theoretically. The ones that skip Melee for Smash 4 are more likely to prefer different style from MK, probably, too. So just that last tiny group, and then people in that last tiny group might happen to prefer something else anyway.
Grass
Smash Lord
Where are you getting this idea from? You believe every MK player must play the same, they either don't want to play MK or hate MK. So your belief that people hate MK because of his nerfs in this game is unfounded. You don't just hate the character or become good because you skipped brawl. There is a big logical fallacy in this statement of yours.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I don't think I warranted that much flame. That was just, like, my opinion, man.
Grass
Smash Lord
This isn't even a flame, I love that people insist on the words "trolling' and "flame" when I call people out on their bs. If it's your opinion then defend yourself on your opinion. They freak out and assume I'm attacking people for what they think or believe in.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
...isn't calling their opinion bull**** kinda inflammatory?
I mean, unless there's lots of love behind it...which I don't imagine there is.
Smooth Criminal
I mean, unless there's lots of love behind it...which I don't imagine there is.
Smooth Criminal
Last edited:
popsofctown
Smash Champion
You called my post a swear word, and I'm the one using overly strong language to characterize other people's posting. Got it.
It's just idle speculation, not something worth defending. I also speculate that the next star wars movie will feature a dual wielding hero. I wouldn't defend that position either.
It's just idle speculation, not something worth defending. I also speculate that the next star wars movie will feature a dual wielding hero. I wouldn't defend that position either.
Road Death Wheel
Smash Champion
This thread has a bad history with "calling out".
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Grass
Smash Lord
So what you're saying is we shouldn't call companies out when they BS us. We should just take it? We should just assume everything we hear is right? I'm sorry, but if people want to be ignorant that's fine, I just don't feel that ignorance towards things should be warranted in a public place. Especially a place that is supposedly safe for work.
and even you admit that you've called people out on this. I'm done with this matter. It's over and done with.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Easy, tiger.
Opinions aren't necessarily misinformation. Also NSFW **** doesn't really apply here unless you're posting some pretty offensive stuff---y'know, actual offensive things. Not...harmlessly noting a trend that may or may not be objectively accurate.
Smooth Criminal
Opinions aren't necessarily misinformation. Also NSFW **** doesn't really apply here unless you're posting some pretty offensive stuff---y'know, actual offensive things. Not...harmlessly noting a trend that may or may not be objectively accurate.
Smooth Criminal
Last edited:
Falco was the first character I picked up in Sm4sh and I hadn't played Fox at all. I didn't like Falco much when I was brand new to the game, and when I went back with the specific purpose of comparing him and Fox, I quickly realized I preferred Fox's playstyle. Talking about it on here really reminded me of the fact that I don't like playing nerfed characters, even if they're still viable.
Road Death Wheel
Smash Champion
There is ways of calling one out without directly insulting ones intelligence. If you want answers there is no issues with that we all want answers, nobody is perfect either we all slip up, maning up and admiting it is not a point that can be used against one or another. Spreading ignorance is not tolerated you are correct. But you made plenty off assumptions in your so called post.
"You believe every MK player must play the same, they either don't want to play MK or hate MK. So your belief that people hate MK because of his nerfs in this game is unfounded."
This statement has nothing backing up it. You called him out on somthing he never stated. This is ignorance.
...Not to call you ignorant of course.
Jaxas
Smash Champion
The problem isn't that you disagree with him, it's that you did so in a non-civil fashion.
Anyways, what does everyone think about Shulk with customs? I've heard a lot about Shulk a while back, but he's been a pretty quiet topic lately, and customs have been getting more and more coverage.
From what little I know, HyperMA seem to have potential to be scary, but I'm not sure if the time tradeoff is worth it.
Power vision is terrifying, but supposedly it doesn't actually apply the slowdown effect to the person triggering the counter, meaning you can escape it easier?
Back Slash has a super-armor version that has little change, right? Assuming it's just a straight upgrade?
Road Death Wheel
Smash Champion
i feel shulk does not come up often because many people here don't have the best experience with him. only guy i can think of that knows anything is @
NairWizard
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
I don't think any version of Vision does away with the slowdown on counter. Power Vision's downside is that once you use it, the counterattack window shortens rather drastically for some amount of time. (I want to say it's 30 seconds but don't quote me on that.) This also happens to the other versions but not to the same degree. Of course if you can still work with that smaller window the downside may as well not exist, which is why there's no real reason not to take it.
Back Slash Charge (the super armor one) I think does less damage and has more startup.
And because this one really messed with my head for a while: Mighty Air Slash "sacrifices range for sheer power" or somesuch, but is actually better as a recovery because it goes higher. What the game means is that the Monado doesn't extend its beam for the attack, so its attack range is smaller. It also has a harder time linking its two hits together.
meleebrawler
Smash Hero
Art customs is really down to preference for the most part. Basically if you don't like playing as vanilla
Shulk for extended periods of time as opposed to, say constantly shuffling speed with buster or jump, you won't
like Hyper (but it makes Shield MUCH better).
Pretty sure Power vision still has the slowdown effect, it's just that the counter-attack comes out
a little slower. It's real drawback is that it's active frames degrade rapidly with repeated use.
'd by @
ParanoidDrone
.Back Slash Charge does FAR less damage and lags much more on recovery. Still, the armour IS
frame 1 apparently...
Last edited:
Plain Yogurt
Smash Ace
I personally find Shulk's customs to be a tad underwhelming in that they don't really do anything super-flashy.
I don't really care for Decisive Monado Arts, as outside of speed and maybe jump having to be stuck in a particular art kinda sucks since the whole point of the move was for adaptation, imo.
Hyper Arts don't suit me personally, but I can see the appeal in killing people dumb early with Hyper Smash. I often wonder if the 5-6 seconds are enough for them to be super useful though. I suppose if you're a Shulk that cancels and switches arts a TON it'd be good for you.
All three variants on backslash are very situational. Default has the most balance in range and power, and can punish laggier projectiles that you jump over if you're too far for a fair. Leaping Backslash is my personal favorite, as it comes out the fastest of the three and has a more consistent damage spread all along the blade (the other two have like a billion different damage values on different points its awful). It's also kinda cool that it can jump through platforms for surprise attacks. Backslash Charge has the most distance traveled and super armor from frame one (so I'm told), but it does the least damage of the three to the point where I feel like on front hit it's really punishable and kind of defeats the super armor's purpose. The massive leap forward also takes getting used to.
Advancing Air Slash reduces vertical recovery in exchange for damage and more horizontal recovery. Like Backslash Charge it takes a little getting used to the change in trajectory: Shulk typically recovers low to catch the ledge whereas doing that here often gets you killed if you use the second slash too early.
Mighty Air Slash's attack range is gutted, but it goes higher and hits harder than standard, though I don't remember if knockback is better or not. Not a fan because I think normal Air Slash is more reliable in linking the hits and with the better attack range.
I haven't really messed with Dash Vision because the sheer force of Power Vision is really appetizing. That said, Power vision is pretty much useless in the air, while the normal variant's faster speed gives it some use. Need to explore Dash Vision more.
Overall I think Shulk's customs are some of the most preference-based in the game, with the possible exception of the Vision variants. I'd need to see more development before I decide how much better customs make Shulk.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Shut your mouth bro.
Back when I was playing Slowbro was a legit defensive wall, took hits like a BEAST. There were plenty of deadly slow mons.
Hyper MA has decent rewards and its good for monado art canceling though it makes the window to capitalize far more technical. I'm partial to Decisive Monado arts because Shulk Decisive speed alone is a top tier move, just mixing up N-airs with Grabs from Mid-range and seeing how they're going to deal with the option when he's that fast and gets better conversions off a grab then Little Mac who operates in the same speed bracket.
You won't be using Backslash Charge much even if you take it, it has more landing lag, so unless you get that hit you're probably getting punished. I'm not really a fan of it to be frank. Puts you at like -9001 on whiff.
Power vision is good because its cheese and you can straight make people reconsider their options not that it matters when something like a Rage Power vision has you killing megaman for firing a lemon.
Decisive Buster and Hyper buster are quite safe on Shield, oh and shield breaks are very real. Honestly I feel like Buster itself is only really worth it come Decisive. Hyper Buster and Hyper speed were both buffed in the 1.04 patch just as Regular and Decisive versions were. However I don't believe that Hyper busters pay off is sufficient, hell I don't think regular Busters pay off is sufficient. Decisive Buster is fantastic though. I'll take Dec Monado arts, you're Monado canceling becomes extremely infrequent, but its got the best ratio between stat boosts and drawbacks.
Theres been a lot of Ike with customs >Custom Shulk, but Decisive artes are delicious. To me its
Dec arts > Reg = Hyper, but thats me. Things that didn't felt very situationally viable, feel more sufficiently usable (shield mode) because the increased rewards give it far better purpose. You give up a lot of shulks technical finesse and flexibility but the rewards of each mode I do believe are more then a fair trade off. We spend a *lot* of time in Speed anyways.
Last edited:
Jaxas
Smash Champion
By the way, Power Vision does set knockback, right? (As in it doesn't matter what power the countered attack is)
Ike with customs is usually just going to be good, but it's just that tempest is an insane gimmick move. Decisive monado seems best to me at first glance since it boosts the arts anyways. Hyper may be best after a ton of work.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
All 3 Monado arts are more or less equal the balance between them comes of pretty good. Hell if anything I think Ike is one of those characters where I would use Hyper over Decisive because tempest is jank, but if you can quick swap to Monado Jump and use Mighty Air Slash or Advancing Air Slash right after activation you're probably more than fine. A lot of characters don't have that kind of Windbox though even with customs to warrant that change though.
Last edited:
Other than staying in Speed forever I think switching arts is probably clearly preferable to simply camping a single art, esp. with two equally matched opponents. I think Shulk's Monados and Pac-Man's fruits/bonus items are two things which we (the community) barely begun to scratch the surface on optimal strategy. EDIT: I mean to expound further other than "key is good" there doesn't seem to be any commonly accepted wisdom on Pac-Man's throwables.
Last edited:
Minordeth
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2014
- Messages
- 921
I was watching this match between Shofu and Zero and came away with a few impressions:
1. Regardless of Zero's absurd skill and knowledge, the MU between Fox and Falcon seems in favor of Falcon's speed+zoning ability. I always had a feeling that Falcon would be a less advantageous match for Fox, but seeing Zero basically shut down Shofu with juggling and that jab somewhat confirmed it. I'm neither a Fox nor Falcon player, so maybe someone can shed some additional light onto the MU?
2. Zero has an absurd level of knowledge of not just the inner workings of the MUs, but also the inner workings of everything else. He really is the best player in this game by a fair margin.
1. Regardless of Zero's absurd skill and knowledge, the MU between Fox and Falcon seems in favor of Falcon's speed+zoning ability. I always had a feeling that Falcon would be a less advantageous match for Fox, but seeing Zero basically shut down Shofu with juggling and that jab somewhat confirmed it. I'm neither a Fox nor Falcon player, so maybe someone can shed some additional light onto the MU?
2. Zero has an absurd level of knowledge of not just the inner workings of the MUs, but also the inner workings of everything else. He really is the best player in this game by a fair margin.
wedl!!
Goddess of Storms
correct me if i'm wrong, but falcon can disrespect a fox dair/nair with the stupid hitbox on uair, which is why he just got bodied like that
Last edited:
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
That's what I heard from Garma as well - Fox needs platforms in the matchup, otherwise he just can't land.
I think the main thing with custom Shulk is that Power Vision really is just incredible. The backslash variants and the arte variants are nice options, but Power Vision is, far and away, the best counter in this game and has the power to swing matches on a single good read. The rapid degeneration of the counter frames means Shulk can hardly spam it, but it only needs to hit once or twice in a game to make a really huge difference.
Firefoxx
Smash Journeyman
Fox is one of the few matchups in the game where, as Falcon, you don't feel like you have to work super hard. They are basically looking to do the same stuff, but Falcon has better range and more KO options. Falcon also has the luxury of just resetting to the ledge if things get bad. Having a "get outta disadvantage mostly free" option is something most other top/high tiers give him.
Last edited:
NairWizard
Somewhere
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2014
- Messages
- 1,947
On the subject of Ike vs. Shulk, Ike's normals are better than Shulk's normals. I realized about a month into learning Shulk that there was little real gain to be had from mastering his rather complex Monado art rotation and tricks relative to just learning a better character; his normals hold him back no matter how good you are at abusing the strengths that Monado arts give him. Also, one of the reasons that I used to think that Shulk is very good is that Smash Monado gives him a KO throw, but in reality it often also gives his opponent a KO throw, or strengthens existing KO throws (Smash Monado Shulk vs. Ness in particular is striking because it becomes a 50:50 coinflip scenario of who grabs whom first).
If there were a Monado Art that adjusted Shulk's frame data (like made the startup on n-air be frame 4, for instance, or reduced endlag on all of his smashes/tilts), he'd be a contender for the game's best. Right now, my view on Shulk is that he's somewhere in the middle of the cast, with the potential to be in the upper half.
My view on Ike has not changed. He's much better than people give him credit for, especially with customs. A heavy with disjoints, a midrange burst punish option (Close Combat), top-tier edgeguarding (Tempest + Aether Drive + sword range), combos, and KO power? #don't be blind, customs Ike is really, really good. If he's not top 10 at least I'll eat my shoe.
There was some Pikachu talk as well... there seems to some misinformation going around about Pikachu's playstyle and matchups. The idea of Rosalina and Sonic beating Pikachu, as proposed by @
Amazing Ampharos
, seems quite left of center to me (though I respect all opinions); these are two of Pikachu's easiest matchups in my experience/opinion, with Falcon and Duck Hunt being the absolute easiest for him in the game--the ZSS MU is closer to even once ZSS players get over the fear of short characters.
If I had to rate Pikachu's matchups, the scale from hardest to easiest looks something like this:
Hardest
--gap--
--gap--
(most other characters go here)
Easiest
What the ratios here are I won't go over, because we can have contention on that for days. But this has been my experience.
If there were a Monado Art that adjusted Shulk's frame data (like made the startup on n-air be frame 4, for instance, or reduced endlag on all of his smashes/tilts), he'd be a contender for the game's best. Right now, my view on Shulk is that he's somewhere in the middle of the cast, with the potential to be in the upper half.
My view on Ike has not changed. He's much better than people give him credit for, especially with customs. A heavy with disjoints, a midrange burst punish option (Close Combat), top-tier edgeguarding (Tempest + Aether Drive + sword range), combos, and KO power? #don't be blind, customs Ike is really, really good. If he's not top 10 at least I'll eat my shoe.
There was some Pikachu talk as well... there seems to some misinformation going around about Pikachu's playstyle and matchups. The idea of Rosalina and Sonic beating Pikachu, as proposed by @
Amazing Ampharos
, seems quite left of center to me (though I respect all opinions); these are two of Pikachu's easiest matchups in my experience/opinion, with Falcon and Duck Hunt being the absolute easiest for him in the game--the ZSS MU is closer to even once ZSS players get over the fear of short characters.If I had to rate Pikachu's matchups, the scale from hardest to easiest looks something like this:
Hardest
--gap--
--gap--
(most other characters go here)
Easiest
What the ratios here are I won't go over, because we can have contention on that for days. But this has been my experience.
Last edited:
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2007
- Messages
- 12,542
- Location
- RPV, California
- NNID
- A2ZOMG
- Switch FC
- SW 8400 1713 9427
Honestly though, Ike and Shulk win/lose about the same matchups on default settings, so if there's a usability gap, it's really small. Shulk does very slightly better capitalizing on strong recoveries with Monado Jump, while Ike does better capitalizing on predictable ones with Eruption, but other than that really...their matchups are mostly identical from what I've observed.On the subject of Ike vs. Shulk, Ike's normals are better than Shulk's normals. I realized about a month into learning Shulk that there was little real gain to be had from mastering his rather complex Monado art rotation and tricks relative to just learning a better character; his normals hold him back no matter how good you are at abusing the strengths that Monado arts give him. Also, one of the reasons that I used to think that Shulk is very good is that Smash Monado gives him a KO throw, but in reality it often also gives his opponent a KO throw, or strengthens existing KO throws (Smash Monado Shulk vs. Ness in particular is striking because it becomes a 50:50 coinflip scenario of who grabs whom first).
If there were a Monado Art that adjusted Shulk's frame data (like made the startup on n-air be frame 4, for instance, or reduced endlag on all of his smashes/tilts), he'd be a contender for the game's best. Right now, my view on Shulk is that he's somewhere in the middle of the cast, with the potential to be in the upper half.
My view on Ike has not changed. He's much better than people give him credit for, especially with customs. A heavy with disjoints, a midrange burst punish option (Close Combat), top-tier edgeguarding (Tempest + Aether Drive + sword range), combos, and KO power? #don't be blind, customs Ike is really, really good. If he's not top 10 at least I'll eat my shoe.
There was some Pikachu talk as well... there seems to some misinformation going around about Pikachu's playstyle and matchups. The idea of Rosalina and Sonic beating Pikachu, as proposed by @
If I had to rate Pikachu's matchups, the scale from hardest to easiest looks something like this:
Hardest
--gap--
--gap--
(most other characters go here)
Easiest
What the ratios here are I won't go over, because we can have contention on that for days. But this has been my experience.
Customs on, Ike is by far better, no question.
Is it just me or do their relative sizes give Pikachu a huuuge advantage over CFalcon? It seems like Falcon is always missing grabs and dash attacks due to size.On the subject of Ike vs. Shulk, Ike's normals are better than Shulk's normals. I realized about a month into learning Shulk that there was little real gain to be had from mastering his rather complex Monado art rotation and tricks relative to just learning a better character; his normals hold him back no matter how good you are at abusing the strengths that Monado arts give him. Also, one of the reasons that I used to think that Shulk is very good is that Smash Monado gives him a KO throw, but in reality it often also gives his opponent a KO throw, or strengthens existing KO throws (Smash Monado Shulk vs. Ness in particular is striking because it becomes a 50:50 coinflip scenario of who grabs whom first).
If there were a Monado Art that adjusted Shulk's frame data (like made the startup on n-air be frame 4, for instance, or reduced endlag on all of his smashes/tilts), he'd be a contender for the game's best. Right now, my view on Shulk is that he's somewhere in the middle of the cast, with the potential to be in the upper half.
My view on Ike has not changed. He's much better than people give him credit for, especially with customs. A heavy with disjoints, a midrange burst punish option (Close Combat), top-tier edgeguarding (Tempest + Aether Drive + sword range), combos, and KO power? #don't be blind, customs Ike is really, really good. If he's not top 10 at least I'll eat my shoe.
There was some Pikachu talk as well... there seems to some misinformation going around about Pikachu's playstyle and matchups. The idea of Rosalina and Sonic beating Pikachu, as proposed by @
If I had to rate Pikachu's matchups, the scale from hardest to easiest looks something like this:
Hardest
--gap--
--gap--
(most other characters go here)
Easiest
What the ratios here are I won't go over, because we can have contention on that for days. But this has been my experience.
Firefoxx
Smash Journeyman
Small characters give Falcon tons of trouble. They can just duck when Falcon approaches and he can't do a damn thing about it. Dtilt, raptor boost, and falcon kick hit low but that's just not enough.
That Pikachu has great combos and God tier edgeguards makes the matchup feel largely hopeless. I would never willing pick Falcon into a Pikachu, its just not worth it.
HeavyLobster
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2014
- Messages
- 2,074
- NNID
- HeavyLobster43
That's part of it. A lot of the things Ganon hates about Pika apply to Falcon as well such as juggles, gimps, being able to duck under everything, and Pika being able to reset using QA when you do manage to land a hit. Falcon unfortunately can't kill Pika in 3 hits, which is most of what makes the matchup playable for Ganon.
See, thank you, this is exactly what I'm wondering as I try to pick a secondary. Who are the characters that beat Pikachu? Something for me to consider.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Arte Swap is overrated. Decisive is jesus.
When I think of what I really arte swap for its
1) Going to Jump to recover/ Speed because its up
2) Going to Smash to kill.
3) Monado art canceling.
4) Panic Shield mode.
Well, Monado Art Canceling is not a frequent thing, and while sometimes useful I find it commonly impractical. Some would value the option, and I'd keep it a definite consideration for Hyper-Monado play but honestly, whatever.
Panic Shield mode is a bit of a dirty habit. The Tl;dr is that Relative to Vanilla shulk, Shield monado only has a 3% damage advantage over its opposition, shield has the most drawbacks of all artes. Decisive Shield still has drawbacks but now you're looking at basically a 10% damage advantage over Vanilla shulk in addition to your weight, still kind of meh but a far more considerable option.
Anyways given how I'm playing my Shulk. Decisive basically removes 4) which is a bad habit in my opinion anyways. 3) is a very small part of Shulks live gameplay. So I'm losing the ability to swap to Jump and Smash when I deem necessary, this is *almost* a big concern.
Meanwhile Decisive opens up even better options. Decisive Buster now is giving me a worthwhile ratio of offense to my subtracted defense so I'll use it. Decisive Speed makes *plenty* of sense in our metagame. Decisive Smash suddenly makes a *lot* more sense, and will allow you to Kill-throw people at considerable %'s in practice before regular Smash will. This distinction is big because now if you're paying attention and have it available you can be going for your Edge-guard/finish way earlier and *before* you're also at kill % so you diminish the probability of a 50:50 risk
To me Decisive isn't about flexibility its about saying "shulk you have some pretty crap base attributes". Let me boost this stat high enough to make you credible.
I'll disagree with Solid. If a Monado Art reduced your frames passively, it would end up the best arte in general. Hell Speed already allows you to spam more N-airs due to its Shorter SH, and it's arguably the best Arte right now.
Arte based problems.
Shield Shulk isn't very good. In order its Hyper > Dec > regular in potency. Hyper only beats Dec because ability to fast swap to it during hit stun can allow you to mitigate the reward of a follow-up on you, and it's another tool to use to M-cancel. Otherwise Dec has the best Shield monado.
Buster is mediocre on regular Monado, and extremely short lived on Hyper that makes its use for both of them very niche.
Smash and Hyper Smash have the same problem of making you so light it's almost not even worth it. At least if you M-cancel into Hyper Smash you may get a big reward, but frankly thats so telegraphed they might as well roll on reaction.
I'm a self-proclaimed skeptic in the Shulk forums because I think you should be using Decisive monado over the others *almost* all the time and I think one of the possible exceptions is against Ike. Where the justification of the swap Monados is swapping to Jump after getting hit by tempest and that is iffy given he can just wind it up again. You might as well just run Mighty Air Slash if you can't deal with tempest.
1) Going to Jump to recover/ Speed because its up
2) Going to Smash to kill.
3) Monado art canceling.
4) Panic Shield mode.
Well, Monado Art Canceling is not a frequent thing, and while sometimes useful I find it commonly impractical. Some would value the option, and I'd keep it a definite consideration for Hyper-Monado play but honestly, whatever.
Panic Shield mode is a bit of a dirty habit. The Tl;dr is that Relative to Vanilla shulk, Shield monado only has a 3% damage advantage over its opposition, shield has the most drawbacks of all artes. Decisive Shield still has drawbacks but now you're looking at basically a 10% damage advantage over Vanilla shulk in addition to your weight, still kind of meh but a far more considerable option.
Anyways given how I'm playing my Shulk. Decisive basically removes 4) which is a bad habit in my opinion anyways. 3) is a very small part of Shulks live gameplay. So I'm losing the ability to swap to Jump and Smash when I deem necessary, this is *almost* a big concern.
Meanwhile Decisive opens up even better options. Decisive Buster now is giving me a worthwhile ratio of offense to my subtracted defense so I'll use it. Decisive Speed makes *plenty* of sense in our metagame. Decisive Smash suddenly makes a *lot* more sense, and will allow you to Kill-throw people at considerable %'s in practice before regular Smash will. This distinction is big because now if you're paying attention and have it available you can be going for your Edge-guard/finish way earlier and *before* you're also at kill % so you diminish the probability of a 50:50 risk
To me Decisive isn't about flexibility its about saying "shulk you have some pretty crap base attributes". Let me boost this stat high enough to make you credible.
I'll disagree with Solid. If a Monado Art reduced your frames passively, it would end up the best arte in general. Hell Speed already allows you to spam more N-airs due to its Shorter SH, and it's arguably the best Arte right now.
Arte based problems.
Shield Shulk isn't very good. In order its Hyper > Dec > regular in potency. Hyper only beats Dec because ability to fast swap to it during hit stun can allow you to mitigate the reward of a follow-up on you, and it's another tool to use to M-cancel. Otherwise Dec has the best Shield monado.
Buster is mediocre on regular Monado, and extremely short lived on Hyper that makes its use for both of them very niche.
Smash and Hyper Smash have the same problem of making you so light it's almost not even worth it. At least if you M-cancel into Hyper Smash you may get a big reward, but frankly thats so telegraphed they might as well roll on reaction.
I'm a self-proclaimed skeptic in the Shulk forums because I think you should be using Decisive monado over the others *almost* all the time and I think one of the possible exceptions is against Ike. Where the justification of the swap Monados is swapping to Jump after getting hit by tempest and that is iffy given he can just wind it up again. You might as well just run Mighty Air Slash if you can't deal with tempest.
I could Arte swap. Or I could make this Arte good enough that I don't need to swap and it'll do what I want it to do.
Buster - Take 13% more damage, deal 40% more. Net - 27% damage advantage against Vanilla Shulk.
Decisive Buster: Take 13% more damage, deal 54% more. Net - 41% more damage against Vanilla Shulk.
Honestly I think regular Buster is bad on Shulk. He doesn't have the tools that a mere 27% advantage is worth his time if the opponent wins neutral and he goes into disadvantage. Now 41%? This can be worth my time especially given the implications of that damage on my shield safety and pressure. Sure you *could* win and get to benefit off Shulks 40% more damage, but are you *likely to do*. How many times will you do it within a 20s Period? No I'll take Decisive Buster, I'll take Decisive speed, I'm locked into these choices, but these choices are so good by base attributes are no problem when I hit as hard as I do, move as fast as I do, or kill/edgeguard as early as I do.
If Optimal play at the end of the day for Shulk at his skill cap is Hyper or Regular Monado thats fine; Decisive is a shortcut 4 years into Shulks metagame compared to them and I rather be that much more ahead.
Last edited:
- Status