Character Competitive Impressions

[Gunla]

Greninja's DTilt is quite helpful in general @ Ffamran - it's a nice poke while crawling and it leads into a some options.

 

[Ffamran]

Greninja's DTilt is quite helpful in general @ Ffamran - it's a nice poke while crawling and it leads into a some options.

If I ever need to defuse a bomb, I'll bring Greninja with me.

So, what can Ftilt do? Or what moves can safely destroy Lloid Rockets (at that range)?

 

[Quickhero]

Foxtrots are almost necessary to land tippered F-Smashes as Marth, if you don't get used to foxtrotting you're going to barely miss a lot of F-smashes and get punished more than you need to. Trust me, I've learned the hard way. >.<

Perfect pivoting is also amazing for Marth, just as it is useful for all characters. It's incredibly useful for Marth though because it's another tool that can help you land F-Smashes and a crapton of grabs+Crescent Slashes. Also perfect pivot shielding is kind of nice but I don't use perfect pivot for that often. I don't really spam perfect pivot for sheer mobility, but rather only use it when I need to use it to space and do something instantly, (grab/shield/f-smash/whatever) but I think every character uses perfect pivoting only for that lol.

 

[Gunla]

If I ever need to defuse a bomb, I'll bring Greninja with me.

So, what can Ftilt do? Or what moves can safely destroy Lloid Rockets (at that range)?

Well... It's not exactly great, but it has it's applications. Basically, FTilt and DTilt decently stop Rockets at closer range (that's what I use). Either that, or avoid the rocket.

 

[Meru.]

......

I'm done for tonight guys.

Yall have a good evening.

I don't see why you're arguing with him, he's not saying anything strange at all. Melee players (or Smash players) call a lot of successive hits 'combo's' even if they're not guaranteed and could have been avoided with DI/teching whatever. Usually so called 0-death combos aren't real combo's, only parts of them are. Unless you think all of these are guaranteed combos?

EDIT: Actually I'm seeing what combo he's talking about now. I take back my words.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco and his perfect pivot Blaster is basically going for style points. That and perfect pivot Down Smash makes it look like he's dancing. Gonna spin back and BAH! broke a move out!

Still, Shofu got wrecked by Zef's perfect pivoted Down Smash and I remember a recent match where a commentator mentioned pivoting Mega Man's Side Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So....

Anyone wanna talk about Charizard?

What would you label as his strengths and weaknesses?

 

[|RK|]

If you're referring to Miiverse I'd lower your expectations, it'll likely be so similar to BF that we can't consider it a unique stage.

True.

 

[TriTails]

I as a bad Lucina player use Shield Breaker for approaching.

Yes, being awkward is my game .

Speaking of , Wizard Foot is good when people uses it right. Sadly, Falcons and Ganons online just spams their Side and Down-b like they are something spammable.

I never seen people doing DA + U-smash as Ganon though. I do it all the time and sometimes it works with D-throw. Or is it because those players doesn't do anything about it?

Still learning, welp.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I as a bad Lucina player use Shield Breaker for approaching.

Yes, being awkward is my game .

The problem with using Dashing Assault for recovery is that it has TONS of ending lag and you may end up too low.
Also, Lucina seems to need Shield Breaker way more than Marth, as her aerials are riskier and the mixup is beneficial for her.
Anyway, I'd rather simply readjust my vertical/horizontal spacing to Cresent Slash's, but even that sounds risky/linear/predictable.

For me It's still 1113, 3113, 1123 or 3123.

Similar thought here, except I see it more as a mixup than an actual approach.

 

[Saturn_]

So. Hey. I picked a main. Captain Falcon. Yay. No one cares, but it was a big deal to me. Cheers.

Now I just need to pick a secondary. Falcon's all melee fighting, I want a character who has different matchups.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I as a bad Lucina player use Shield Breaker for approaching.

Yes, being awkward is my game .

Speaking of , Wizard Foot is good when people uses it right. Sadly, Falcons and Ganons online just spams their Side and Down-b like they are something spammable.

I never seen people doing DA + U-smash as Ganon though. I do it all the time and sometimes it works with D-throw. Or is it because those players doesn't do anything about it?

Still learning, welp.

Most people jump or N-air after DA, which U-smash doesn't do well against usually. D-throw though you can often get people to airdodge which can lead to funny results...especially by the edge.

 

[TriTails]

So. Hey. I picked a main. Captain Falcon. Yay. No one cares, but it was a big deal to me. Cheers.

Now I just need to pick a secondary. Falcon's all melee fighting, I want a character who has different matchups.

MUEGA MAN!

The announcer sounded like he has a rock in his throat.

Oh, and Pac, Villager, ROB, and maaayyybbeeee swordies can do.

 

[Yonder]

So. Hey. I picked a main. Captain Falcon. Yay. No one cares, but it was a big deal to me. Cheers.

Now I just need to pick a secondary. Falcon's all melee fighting, I want a character who has different matchups.

Duck Hunt is a horrible close up fighter but fantastic from a distance. Sounds like an opposite to Falcon, try him.

 

[Saturn_]

So. Hey. I picked a main. Captain Falcon. Yay. No one cares, but it was a big deal to me. Cheers.

Now I just need to pick a secondary. Falcon's all melee fighting, I want a character who has different matchups.

MUEGA MAN!

The announcer sounded like he has a rock in his throat.

Oh, and Pac, Villager, ROB, and maaayyybbeeee swordies can do.

I'm not sure if Ike or Marth is better, I've played Ike more but I'm open to the idea that Marth is better. I've played Robin but I hate the playstyle, same with Ness. I've considered "complimentary" characters who simply behave very differently than C.Falcon, like Luigi and Pikachu; those last two have projectiles and probably less linear gameplay than Falcon. Luigi is probably one of my most played characters, I've definitely considered him as secondary.

 

[TriTails]

Ike is better than Marth from what most people say.

Still rarely lost to him as Luigi though. Maybe it's because those Ike players aren't good, but oh well. I never see them AC their aerials.

 

[Saturn_]

Ike is better than Marth from what most people say.

Still rarely lost to him as Luigi though. Maybe it's because those Ike players aren't good, but oh well. I never see them AC their aerials.

I like the way many characters in this game naturally fall into groups, because you can find the specific moveset that fits you while still getting to have a character with a certain kind of playstyle (i.e. swordsman, spacie, etc.) Because of that, I'm going to be playing Ike/Marth and Fox/Falco and seeing who I like better, then going from there.

Going through this roster is like panning for gold, you can never sift enough.

Fox is my least played out of those four, I'm excited because I haven't played a character yet that approaches with short-hop sex kicks.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Duck Hunt is a horrible close up fighter but fantastic from a distance. Sounds like an opposite to Falcon, try him.

I kinda beg to differ.

Duck Hunt has good normals and aerials.

They just rely on the can for combos and such.

 

[Timbers]

I kinda beg to differ.

Duck Hunt has good normals and aerials.

They just rely on the can for combos and such.

This. Character has lots of fast disjointed moves. Can and nair are awesome combobreakers. Anyone trying to peg a weakness on Duck Hunt should probably be targeting his recovery or poor KO potential.

 

[CrimsonSmasher]

Sword Launcher also doesn't auto cancel like Quick Draw if used in the air/ground. One bright side - you can briefly change your direction during the charge up.
Also, I believe Swordfighter's Jab Cancel is still in the game.

Changing the direction of Sword Launcher, you're serious?! Gotta check that out. I've tried Jab Cancelling and Swordfighter can do it, but it's tricky because one slip on the movement stick and you end up doing Jab 2 and Jab 3.

 

[Antonykun]

Grrr.
People who play on wifi are usually cancer; I don't enjoy watching abuse of 'Sm4sh 20frame reaction edition'. First time people have seen 's simple-ish 60% combos and kill confirms? ~_~ Oh and alright pivot and shff usage.

Explosive Blaster + Shine. Think about their synergy (range, active frames).

's Up-B is a mystery of the universe. I will spike it, 100% of the time... eventually. Forgoing it for less will prob get you gimped.

Funny thing is about ganon is that I remember complaining about him only to get a warning.
In the subject of Smash lag, I remember a saying "you don't understand lag, until you play Falco" I personally would add Pikachu. Flinging yourself off the stage with QA is a very heartbreaking thing to happen.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, Pikachu is very hard to play in lag.

 

[TriTails]

I dare you to do the Jumped Cyclone when the lag occurs before the jump input is inputted in while you just pressed the down-b right after the lag ends.

Seriously, happens too lot to be real.

Oh, and that up-b was supposed to come out 2 seconds ago, now I'm falling to oblivion.

 

[bc1910]

If I ever need to defuse a bomb, I'll bring Greninja with me.

So, what can Ftilt do? Or what moves can safely destroy Lloid Rockets (at that range)?

Ftilt kind of blows in general, its startup and ending lag are both really high for the amount of damage and reward it gets. At least the range is good. Dtilt is much better to safely destroy Lloids at that range though because it's safer, and it's kind of all you need at that range.

 

[Charls]

@ Ffamran Dance Trots & Perfect Pivots, particularily out of the trots, are essential to high level Marcina play. They depend on mastering movement options to avoid commiting and then being punished for their oh-so terrible frame data. That goes for regular pivots, empty hops, and stutter step Fsmash too. It's good to know more Marcina players are taking advantage of their foxtrots online but I just hope they're actually thinking about it and not doing it for style points. Empty foxtrots... Don't really do much.

Oh and [most] Lucinas are freaking rude. They hold grudges on Marth players ._.

Also Ike is defenitely > Marth in the current metagame, in and out of a customs enviroment imo. Then again we haven't seen people repping either swordsman in a big tournament, so maybe it's not so clear-cut. Ike being able to wall out other characters and having a respectable combo game does make a good argument for him though.

 

[Luigi player]

So. Hey. I picked a main. Captain Falcon. Yay. No one cares, but it was a big deal to me. Cheers.

Now I just need to pick a secondary. Falcon's all melee fighting, I want a character who has different matchups.

No character will have the same MUs as Falcon.
Though you could try out .

 

[Terotrous]

I also feel that Yoshi is no longer top 10 with customs. He doesn't benefit from them at all, and some characters that were below him previously with surely rise above him with customs (Mario, Palutena, DK and Villager are a few that I'm fairly certain about). He's still strong with them, but not enough to be 8 out of 51.

I agree. I feel that Yoshi is probably around 20-25 in Customs on. Of all the characters, he probably drops the most. This is pretty unfortunate considering Yoshi isn't played much already and if Customs becomes the new metagame he may become one of the least common characters.

Fox on the other hand or rather, the other foot, can Nair to confirm an Up Smash.

Yeah, I totally stole that tech after I saw it, it's really easy to do. I'm pretty sure you can tech after the Nair if you react fast enough though.

Off the top of my head:
Banana into a bunch of stuff mostly grab
U-air into U-air
D-tilt into grab
U-throw into U-air

I've also seen falling Nair into Uair vs airborne opponents. Also, many things that combo into Uair can also combo into Fair. I think DTilt into Fair is also possible.

Basically, it's just everything into everything.

Dude! Pon's Ganondorf and using the back hit of Uair, using the uppercut of Dark Dive, and just... DUDE! And then he fights an unknown Falco with the jukes. Look at the pivots, reverse B's, and DUDE! Just watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWkQ6z06m9s.

There's actually some pretty cool ROB gyro and Falco stuff in here too.

One thing I've definitely noticed about the Japanese players is that they're really creative in what they do with their characters. Maybe their fundamentals aren't always quite as solid as some of the top US players, but they're great at coming up with new neutral options and strategies.

ah the footstool combos. this really is becoming the new combo meta.

Yeah, I'm going to have to learn these crazy jab lock combos, aren't I? I swear though the moment I learn it they're going to patch it out. I kinda don't want to focus too much on ATs until Mewtwo is out and we know the game is stable for a little while.

Help me. For the life of me I have no idea how to get myself to not hold shield whenever Marth pulls out shield breaker. I'm mentally screaming at myself not to do it but my body does it anyway. I usually do ok against decent Marths who don't use it much but I'm a sucker for random YOLO Shieldbreakers.

Fight some Marth who does it a lot until you learn to stop doing it.

The moment you see use warlock kick you know it's wifi. I also refer to every vid of linked here ever.

You can't really compare Japanese wifi to North American wifi, Japanese wifi matches generally have way less lag and latency due to much smaller distances + generally better connection speeds. Remember, Japanese wifi was the reason that Sakurai thought Brawl's netcode was acceptable.

Yoshi's problems lie in the fact he has no reliable kill setups compared to most top tiers, and his approach options are booty butt bad.

Eh, Yoshi's approach is generally above average, simply due to his amazing air speed. Fair is a good poke, and the threat of command grab can make the opponent wary of simply shielding it (though it's fairly safe on shield anyway. Even though his throws are bad and give little reward, his dash attack is still pretty good at close range and thus he does still have a slight dash attack vs grab mixup. And there's always run up UpSmash, which is a legitimately scary (albeit very unsafe) option to force people to respect his ground options.

Ultimately though, what makes Yoshi good is that he never has to approach if he doesn't want to. He has among the best zoning in the game, about the only character I can think of who can make him approach is Robin, and he has the tools to approach Robin anyway.

Also Dabuz put Yoshi as even after APEX from his 60:40 back in like mid December I think. So Yoshi's questionable Match-ups around the supposed top tier area so far (cause honestly who plays Yoshi?) is Rosalina Luigi Mario Ness.

I was always saying I thought Yoshi vs no-customs Rosalina was even, though with customs on it's probably -1. I think Yoshi vs Fox, Falcon and Greninja are also at least even if we're counting them as top-ish characters.

It's true that Yoshi vs Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, and Pika are all probably -1 (-2 for Sheik), which definitely doesn't help his tournament representation.

Duck Hunt is a horrible close up fighter but fantastic from a distance. Sounds like an opposite to Falcon, try him.

Actually, if we're going to talk about a character, I'd want to talk about Duck Hunt. We don't seem to have talked about him in ages. I've noticed he seems to be constantly falling on the tier list (people had him in top 10 at one point when the game was really new). Is the consensus still that he just can't get kills or what?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I ended up winning a local Doubles event with my buddy Kismet. Lots of tech being found; Megaman/Jigglypuff seems REALLY strong.

Cross-up D-Air lets your partner get a free grab if the opponent shields. Mega Man can make a lot of your stuff safe by just shooting pellets while you harass people with D-Air.

Mega Man U-Air hits puts people in the tiniest amount of hitstun on each hit. As a result, you and the opponent will be stuck in it for the same amount of time. Rest comes out on Frame 2 and is essentially unavoidable post-Air Shooter if you jump in when you see someone get caught by it. It also has the advantage of moving you upward, getting you early-early KOs.

B-Throws set up well for Rest, and you can easily B-Air or N-Air them into an Air Shooter. You don't have to do any real approaching; it's incredibly easy to capitalize on Mega Man's stuff. It felt similar to the great Greninja/Puff team I fought at APEX, with Amsah/Abadango.

 

[bc1910]

Just messed around with a character I've been meaning to test out for a while - Ness. I think he's really, really good, much better than I expected. His attacks flow really well, are pretty safe, and I'm in love with short hop Uair (easy to do with the C-stick set to Attack); it deals amazing damage, hits standing opponents and seems to have incredible potential for frame traps. It's way more interesting to use SHUair after a Dthrow to set up traps rather than the usual Fair chains, which become impossible to do very quickly if the opponent can DI properly (up and away from Ness).

Also I know everyone knows this but I'd just like to say I agree that back throw is kind of insane. It kills midscreen at very reasonable percents, kills near the edge at CRAZY low percents (Mario can die sub-100%) and gives Ness a brilliant KO option to fall back on. It's like having an Uthrow kill.

 

[outfoxd]

I agree. I feel that Yoshi is probably around 20-25 in Customs on. Of all the characters, he probably drops the most. This is pretty unfortunate considering Yoshi isn't played much already and if Customs becomes the new metagame he may become one of the least common characters.



Yeah, I totally stole that tech after I saw it, it's really easy to do. I'm pretty sure you can tech after the Nair if you react fast enough though.



I've also seen falling Nair into Uair vs airborne opponents. Also, many things that combo into Uair can also combo into Fair. I think DTilt into Fair is also possible.

Basically, it's just everything into everything.



There's actually some pretty cool ROB gyro and Falco stuff in here too.

One thing I've definitely noticed about the Japanese players is that they're really creative in what they do with their characters. Maybe their fundamentals aren't always quite as solid as some of the top US players, but they're great at coming up with new neutral options and strategies.



Yeah, I'm going to have to learn these crazy jab lock combos, aren't I? I swear though the moment I learn it they're going to patch it out. I kinda don't want to focus too much on ATs until Mewtwo is out and we know the game is stable for a little while.



Fight some Marth who does it a lot until you learn to stop doing it.



You can't really compare Japanese wifi to North American wifi, Japanese wifi matches generally have way less lag and latency due to much smaller distances + generally better connection speeds. Remember, Japanese wifi was the reason that Sakurai thought Brawl's netcode was acceptable.



Eh, Yoshi's approach is generally above average, simply due to his amazing air speed. Fair is a good poke, and the threat of command grab can make the opponent wary of simply shielding it (though it's fairly safe on shield anyway. Even though his throws are bad and give little reward, his dash attack is still pretty good at close range and thus he does still have a slight dash attack vs grab mixup. And there's always run up UpSmash, which is a legitimately scary (albeit very unsafe) option to force people to respect his ground options.

Ultimately though, what makes Yoshi good is that he never has to approach if he doesn't want to. He has among the best zoning in the game, about the only character I can think of who can make him approach is Robin, and he has the tools to approach Robin anyway.



I was always saying I thought Yoshi vs no-customs Rosalina was even, though with customs on it's probably -1. I think Yoshi vs Fox, Falcon and Greninja are also at least even if we're counting them as top-ish characters.

It's true that Yoshi vs Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, and Pika are all probably -1 (-2 for Sheik), which definitely doesn't help his tournament representation.



Actually, if we're going to talk about a character, I'd want to talk about Duck Hunt. We don't seem to have talked about him in ages. I've noticed he seems to be constantly falling on the tier list (people had him in top 10 at one point when the game was really new). Is the consensus still that he just can't get kills or what?

No meta representation? Regional s prolly aren't a good sample but in my area I'm usually one of about three hunters at tourneys. And half the time they switch anyway. I know I'm just stubborn.

 

[egaddmario]

What's everyone's opinions of Shulk? I saw Duck Hunt being briefly discussed above and just wanted to add that he can use his can as protection for his recovery, so that somewhat covers that weakness. Not well, but it can deter people from trying to gimp/spike. Gotta see how people are rating muh mains.

 

[Terotrous]

No meta representation? Regional s prolly aren't a good sample but in my area I'm usually one of about three hunters at tourneys. And half the time they switch anyway. I know I'm just stubborn.

There's some, like Yoshidora in Japan and a few regional players, but Yoshi's been a total no show in most recent majors.

 

[outfoxd]

There's some, like Yoshidora in Japan and a few regional players, but Yoshi's been a total no show in most recent majors.

I meant Duck Hunt, but yeah. I've seen no Yoshis.

Also DHD has some ugly top tier Mus

 

[Terotrous]

I meant Duck Hunt, but yeah. I've seen no Yoshis.

Also DHD has some ugly top tier Mus

Oh, I do see Duck Hunt players sometimes. What I see from him generally doesn't impress me too much. Sure, he's got fancy setups, but he seems to have to work pretty hard for what other characters can achieve with much more basic options.

 

[outfoxd]

Oh, I do see Duck Hunt players sometimes. What I see from him generally doesn't impress me too much. Sure, he's got fancy setups, but he seems to have to work pretty hard for what other characters can achieve with much more basic options.

I think at his best he doesn't bust you with his options so much as limit yours.

Notice I quantified it as "at his best".

 

[Yikarur]

Eh, Yoshi's approach is generally above average, simply due to his amazing air speed. Fair is a good poke, and the threat of command grab can make the opponent wary of simply shielding it (though it's fairly safe on shield anyway. Even though his throws are bad and give little reward, his dash attack is still pretty good at close range and thus he does still have a slight dash attack vs grab mixup. And there's always run up UpSmash, which is a legitimately scary (albeit very unsafe) option to force people to respect his ground options.

Yoshi has no reliable approach option. Just because he has Top Max Air Speed doen't mean his air approach is superior. His acceleration is relatively slow in relation to his max speed. His command grab has no reward at all

Ultimately though, what makes Yoshi good is that he never has to approach if he doesn't want to. He has among the best zoning in the game, about the only character I can think of who can make him approach is Robin, and he has the tools to approach Robin anyway.

thats completely wrong. Yoshi can't really approach so he has to force an approach but his upB is so laggy that you should always get punished for using it. If you're approaching a Yoshi who just did an aerial egg throw he has a very limited amount of options.
- Jump away (takes away a lot of options)
- Fair/Nair (Beaten by shield/spacing/spotdodge)
- Egg Lay (this move is so important because Yoshi has no pokes that people who know the match-up will just spotdodge it)

I was always saying I thought Yoshi vs no-customs Rosalina was even, though with customs on it's probably -1. I think Yoshi vs Fox, Falcon and Greninja are also at least even if we're counting them as top-ish characters.

Yoshi should not be even against any of those characters because they can break holes in Yoshis whole "Fortress" game with their speed and Yoshi has no good way to kill any character reliably.

It's true that Yoshi vs Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, and Pika are all probably -1 (-2 for Sheik), which definitely doesn't help his tournament representation.

the Sheik MU isn't worse than the Diddy MU. I think Diddy is Yoshis worst MU in this game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yoshi has no reliable approach option. Just because he has Top Max Air Speed doen't mean his air approach is superior. His acceleration is relatively slow in relation to his max speed. His command grab has no reward at all

Whaaaaat? Neutral-B is -loads- better in this game. People staying in longer based on damage means you get more hits on the egg before they break out, which is significant at higher percents. Also, coming out of the egg no longer seems to give the opponent invincibility, so you can ready an attack as they're coming out for relatively free follow-ups. It went from nothing special in Brawl to being a real threat in Smash 4.

 

[Yikarur]

Your information is wrong. The opponent has the same amount of invincibility than in Melee and Brawl.
People can always mash-out of it at a speed where every attempt to hit the egg (which does only about half the damage too) will result in a punish.
People really need to step up their game. I realize people lack general knowledge about this character.

Overall egg lay was better in Brawl because of DJC stuff.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Even the ninja buff from brawl to Smash 4 sakurai gave to Yoshi's Neutral B with needing more inputs to get out at higher % doesn't really matter.
But then again since people are so bad, they almost immediately double jump when they escape the egg forgetting it pops them up, so if we're lucky enough to get a fair on them they're dead.

 

[FullMoon]

Yoshi should not be even against any of those characters because they can break holes in Yoshis whole "Fortress" game with their speed and Yoshi has no good way to kill any character reliably.

Hm? So you think Greninja beats Yoshi? I always felt the MU was pretty even myself.