Character Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

*snip*

It's because Pac-Man works BEST like that. It's how he got results at Apex, it's how Abadango got really far. Amazing fundamentals, movement, and not being afraid to play keep-away and utilize Pac-Man's abilities at what I and many others believe to be his best aspect.

His amazing keep away. Sure he can do a lot of other stuff but if this is what he does optimally, you're generally going to push for it, especially if it's getting him placements. I don't mean to discount anyone who plays Pac-Man differently, more power to you if you can push it farther, but his kit to me and a LOT of other people, and I mean a LOT, is mostly about strict keepaways and maintaining a good lead with stage control and traps.

 

[Nu~]

It's because Pac-Man works BEST like that. It's how he got results at Apex, it's how Abadango got really far. Amazing fundamentals, movement, and not being afraid to play keep-away and utilize Pac-Man's abilities at what I and many others believe to be his best aspect.

His amazing keep away. Sure he can do a lot of other stuff but if this is what he does optimally, you're generally going to push for it, especially if it's getting him placements. I don't mean to discount anyone who plays Pac-Man differently, more power to you if you can push it farther, but his kit to me and a LOT of other people, and I mean a LOT, is mostly about strict keepaways and maintaining a good lead with stage control and traps.

I still wouldn't place all my bets on that one style of play.
When you have a character with this much room for creativity and different playstyles (compare Abadango and Chef Pac) it seems like a waste of potential to try and stick to one. Especially if it won't work all the time (Abadango vs Dabuz)

If you have the options to cover every possible scenario, use them.

 

[Terotrous]

Shuriken of light and Power Thrust for your neutral game woes.

Power Thrust means no counter or reflector though. I will fiddle with Shuriken of Light more, though, I was using Gust Slash and it's really not too impressive.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

In practice, I've found SSB too laggy to act as a camping projectile or one that forces engagements. Instead, I think it functions in neutral solely as a deterrent to camping, and sometimes hitting at long ranges if they're caught off-guard. For example, it's effective against Link and Duck Hunt to prevent their camping setups. But it's not complex enough of a projectile and has too high a cooldown to use in that mid-range (just inside Luma Warp range) where Diddy can play patiently. Think Brawl Zelda. Din's doesn't force approaches. It just forces you to play closer.

I see what you mean, and I agree to an extent about the advantages of sticking to one character, but I think there are a few characters with similar-ish (there's nothing truly similar to playing Rosalina) playstyles in terms of patient zoning that do better in some troubled matchups. I've recently picked up Mega Man and still have my Brawl Olimar instincts. Just to name a few similarities:

• Olimar pikmin priority is similar to Luma priority, and you work around its faults in the same way- being careful about clanking with attacks and choosing options that don't leave you open if they clash with pikmin/Luma.

• With both Mega Man and Rosalina, you primarily use jab and n-air for zoning/spacing respectively in neutral (cool huh?). Both jabs have some similarities that make the transition relatively easy: long range, both great in neutral at close/mid-range, they have similar frame data when it comes to players jumping OoS into aerials or rolling behind as punishment options. As for n-air, with both characters you retreat with some of them, and land close to their shield with others. Jabbing after n-airs works effectively with both characters to prevent some OoS punishment options.

A few minor similarities that form good defensive habits that transition well between characters:

• Both Mega Man and Olimar help sharpen your rolling habits, because like Rosalina, their boxing games aren't the best.
• Both characters have default recoveries without hitboxes. If you use Rosalina's custom up-b that travels very quickly, you'll have experience teching stage spikes in the same way you do with Olimar/Mega Man default up-b. (I've recently been favoring the other two Mega Man up-bs though.)
• None of them have quick aerial options to force aerial trades in sticky situations.

For matchups, I currently think both Mega Man and Olimar do much better against Diddy. I think Mega man does better vs Captain Falcon. They both generally do well against campers if you prefer not to play Rosalina for those matchups. I think with Shadow Blade Mega Man might beat Rosalina, so you potentially have that for dittos. I haven't played the matchup much yet, but I speculate Mega Man shuts down Peach pretty hard by keeping her grounded with lemon spam- could be wrong about that one.

Interesting analysis (my assumption for best match-up partner for Rosalina is Peach, but learning Peach from a Rosalina background isn't reasonable whereas maybe these other characters are). I suppose my main disagreement comes from the very first premise here; I think Diddy playing closer is good enough for Rosalina since it makes her massive grab range a lot more of a thing in the match-up. As far as I'm concerned, forcing them to play closer is pretty much the same thing as forcing them to approach since it accomplishes the same basic goal of putting them into the middle of my spatial control game and into the zones I can effectively win in as Rosalina. They have to successfully move in past Luma Warp range (which they won't do uncontested), and then they have to deal with the fact that I'm a short step away from being able to ftilt, dtilt, or running grab them at any time which lets me actually play footsies. Default Rosalina just frustrates me since they can just stay further away and force me to be the one moving in all the time which against someone like Diddy is just awful; it's not exactly hard to follow Rosalina's mediocre movement and make life suck for her when she's the one going in.

---

I've talked before about why Yoshi's tools aren't quite Top Tier (his neutral is much more punishable than has been claimed; his grab and throw combos hold him back), but I think the relevant metric in this case is not tools but matchups. Pikachu is generally agreed upon to beat Rosalina, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, and probably Diddy (some people believe it's 50:50; others believe it's 55:45 in Pikachu's favor--I could be persuaded either way). That's 4 of the 5 generally perceived Top Tiers (the other being Sheik, which is a contentious matchup but is close to even either way). Can Yoshi boast that? Yoshi's MUs are really good, but the Top Tiers tend to have jank that work well against him. Sheik, Diddy, and ZSS likely win; Rosalina wins as well according to Dabuz; and Sonic may be at a small disadvantage or even.

That's all there is to it. It's not that Pikachu's tools are better; it's that his matchups among top tiers are better.

Perhaps Yoshi will prove to be better when other characters rise to the top in a customs meta: maybe Lucario becomes really good somehow, and Yoshi is a monster in the Lucario MU due to greater weight. Who knows? As things are right now, though, I can't justify Yoshi being as good as Pikachu, let alone better or deserving of equal amounts of hype, though I am aware that Pikachu's results haven't been great since ESAM dropped the game (notwithstanding local success on my part or the parts of a few other Pikachu mains). However, it is worth saying that Yoshi is for sure an underplayed character, much like Peach, and there's much room for advancement in his metagame.

I don't know who is generally agreeing Pikachu beats Rosalina and Sonic; I would consider both to probably beat Pikachu and would say Diddy almost definitely beats Pikachu too. I could believe Pikachu beating ZSS (it makes a lot of sense), but ZSS isn't really a top character so I don't know why we'd be looking at ZSS and not other characters honestly about as good as her that would be more likely to be positive match-ups for Yoshi (characters like Mario and Ness). I also don't believe we can boil this game down to just top tier match-ups or even say with confidence what a full list of the top tiers are, and I'm not sure we can really have a match-up discussion in the first place since I don't see how our match-up disagreements here can go much beyond us just asserting our opinions about which characters beat which characters (neither of us can possibly present solid evidence these match-ups go one way or another). I also don't really see Pikachu as a top character in the first place, but that's a whole other can of worms...

 

[Unknownkid]

Shuriken of light and Power Thrust for your neutral game woes.

For Sword Fighter d-throw to Uair will kill usually around 85% to 100%. Varies from character to character. You have maybe 2 frame window of error. Also jab1, jab 2 xx U-smash is a decent confirm but not guaranteed.

Fair (2 hits) -> FF-> U-Smash is a kill confirm. T1mmy uses this all the time. He also does the Auto Cancel Uair.
If you are good with Frame Cancelling, Fair can frame cancel into a lot things - Jab, Grab, Dtilt, Ftilt, ex. I don't know if he is a "better" Marth especially with the ending lag, range, and mobility. However, learning to use Marth/Lucina might help me use Swordfighter better. I see him/her like Hybrid between Kirby, Link, and Ike.

Overall, I agree with most of what you are saying.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I noticed on the bottom of the reddit tier list http://imgur.com/a/qap6L they put Palutena as the character with the most potential. I honestly think it's peach. There is crazy technical demand for her and her unique float ability and aerials are the very reason for that. Combined that with how unexplored she is. And just think of the question "who is high tier?" Oftentimes, Peach won't come to mind, but if someone asks you "Is Peach high tier?" most people would say "idk probably."

 

[Luco]

I've thought for a very long time that Peach is high tier. She's just so solid, quite technical and most of her Brawl problems were mitigated (even if Fair still stales now). I believe Pink Fresh plays her in smash 4? Is Illmatic still around?

 

[Ffamran]

I've thought for a very long time that Peach is high tier. She's just so solid, quite technical and most of her Brawl problems were mitigated (even if Fair still stales now). I believe Pink Fresh plays her in smash 4? Is Illmatic still around?

There's Dark.Pch, Slayerz, lloD, and Pink Fresh for the people who I know of that plays Peach.

 

[Luco]

There's Dark.Pch, Slayerz, lloD, and Pink Fresh for the people who I know of that plays Peach.

Ahh yes of course I should have mentioned Dark.Pch (he's only come to this thread once I believe?), Slayerz I should have thought of... Ilod sounds familiar but I don't really know. :o

 

[Jaguar360]

Time For The Results Of The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List!​

This is the first tier list voted on to include customs being on when people voted. While there was only 600+ votes this month compared to last month breaking over 800 I still think this was a solid effort and that there may have been less votes because some people just didn't know enough about customs to feel comfortable voting. For those who don't know the procedure behind these, players rank each character 1 though 10, 1 being that character sucks, 10 being that character is awesome, I take the averages, and then present them for everyone to see. I also asked folks what characters people think have hidden potential, and are overrated so we can share the top 3 results.

WITHOUT FURTHER ADO HERE ARE THE RESULTS!​

I covered everything in a nice little Imgur album this month to save some space here. As always I'm looking forward to seeing the discussion here on this list. You can discuss it on reddit as well by clicking here. So guys, discuss away!

I thought that it actually did a decent job until I saw Charizard and Mii Gunner down in D tier. That is just inexcusable right there. Dragon Rush alone pushes up Charizard to high C at the very least (probably B imo) and Fly High and Rock Hurl also give Charizard great new options. I really think that a lot of people did not consider customs at all when voting for this.

People need to watch videos of Mii Gunner and really understand how great he/she is. Small Gunner is just so quick and has a great array of projectiles. Grenade is especially good. Gunner can just rack up damage so quickly and while her/his kill power is low, he/she's not short of options (d-smash, f-smash reads, u-air, edguards).

I also feel that Yoshi is no longer top 10 with customs. He doesn't benefit from them at all, and some characters that were below him previously with surely rise above him with customs (Mario, Palutena, DK and Villager are a few that I'm fairly certain about). He's still strong with them, but not enough to be 8 out of 51.

One final thing I'd like to address is Mii Brawler's placement. I'm quite sure that he/she is top 10 with customs due to his/her ridiculous mobility, strong and quick killing options (Helicopter Kick and u-smash in particular), and good combo ability. The Miis need way more exposure in general so that people will stop underrating them. Even Swordfighter has some nice traits. He can combo with d-throw or u-throw to u-air fairly reliably, is one of the best at gimping in the game with d-air and Reversal Slash, can carry two decent projectiles at once (Shuriken of Light and Chakram being the best combination) and has good kill options for the most part in u-air, u-smash and f-smash on a read. His terrible recovery and poor speed leave him at the bottom of the tier list, but I'm still not sold on whether he should be in a tier by himself quite yet.

Otherwise, the tier list looks pretty decent, though I think several people didn't read the disclaimer about customs. It's nice to see Pikachu in S rank and, when Zard and Gunner are taken out, the bottom 5 looks very believable.

EDIT: And what is Link doing in B tier exactly? He's solid, but not above Dong Cyclone, custom Wii Fit or Meta Knight...

 

[CrimsonSmasher]

No he really isn't. I think....

he might be better than Marth, which isn't saying alot but it would make him a solid mid tier.

And yes SwordFighter has alot of really stupid, bad redundant moves.

Airborne Assault is just garbage. Sword flurry is shieldbreaker but worse and shieldbreaker is average. Power Thrust is Marths Dashing Assault on steroids though which is awesome. Sword Launcher is a slightly better quick draw.

I am really trying to find a movelist for him thats not so damn redundant, but it is really REALLY difficult.

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has said about Mii Swordfighter for quite a while. I sadly have to disagree on Sword Launcher. In comparison to Quick Draw it delivers less damage plus it creates less distance between point A and point B (approximately 2/5th). The only advantage Sword Launcher seems to have is that you go through the opponent, which enables you to avoid counters easier.
I suppose that when it comes to utilizing Swordfighter, one has to master its air- and grab game. But there's also mentioning of frames... err, frame cancelling? Hehe, I'm kinda new to that side of Smash 4.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

-snip-

Hold up... that list was with customs ON?

Yeah never mind it doesn't look right at all...


EDIT: THE SERVERS ARE DOWN FOR MAINTENANCE.
Could we possibly be looking at another patch?

 

[Smog Frog]

M E W T W O B O Y Z


raise ur

also if it is a patch please make diddy's uair more honest and give it some startup, like maybe 5 more frames?

 

[Unknownkid]

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has said about Mii Swordfighter for quite a while. I sadly have to disagree on Sword Launcher. In comparison to Quick Draw it delivers less damage plus it creates less distance between point A and point B (approximately 2/5th). The only advantage Sword Launcher seems to have is that you go through the opponent, which enables you to avoid counters easier.
I suppose that when it comes to utilizing Swordfighter, one has to master its air- and grab game. But there's also mentioning of frames... err, frame cancelling? Hehe, I'm kinda new to that side of Smash 4.

Sword Launcher also doesn't auto cancel like Quick Draw if used in the air/ground. One bright side - you can briefly change your direction during the charge up.
Also, I believe Swordfighter's Jab Cancel is still in the game.

 

[Superbat]

M E W T W O B O Y Z


raise ur

also if it is a patch please make diddy's uair more honest and give it some startup, like maybe 5 more frames?

A man can dream. Hopefully Sakurai won't pull a pikachu on us and make diddy even stronger x.x

 

[Mr. Johan]

If Burning Spin Dash connects on an upwards incline, can apparently segue into a Usmash guaranteed at 70-100%.

God damn this move.

Like, it can't be underestimated. Uncharged it still does ~9% + whatever followup Sonic wants to do, usually Uair, the move hardly has any knockback at any percent, so the opponent has to make a move really quick or else Sonic's going to intercept, if he hasn't read your gut reaction already, and the hop is timed and spaced so perfectly that Sonic immediately goes back to neutral upon hitting the ground after SDJ or SDJ -> Uair, giving him full land control and allowing him to shark and prepare for the opponent's next action.

Its only weaknesses is that it stops cold when it hits a shield, which Sonic shouldn't be hitting BSD with anyway, and that it indirectly nerfs Spin Charge by making it adopt its properties. Otherwise, it's completely solid.

 

[Quickhero]

M E W T W O B O Y Z


raise ur

also if it is a patch please make diddy's uair more honest and give it some startup, like maybe 5 more frames?

Please don't get people's (and yours) hopes up, last patch I was expecting somewhat of a decent patch last time but instead of getting at least SOME balance fixes we didn't get shiet in terms of the actual game and I was so sad.

I'm not expecting didd(l)y squat.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I really think that Rosalina is the best character in the game with customs. The big star bit I believeis her best special. It's a slow moving projectile that takes up a lot of space. I definitely like it more than the her other side B's. It's extremely versatile and can be used offensively and defensively.

As for Marth kill set ups aerial DB1 combos into uair fair and nair around 125 or so. So there's a kill confirm for marth......

 

[Antonykun]

Please don't get people's (and yours) hopes up, last patch I was expecting somewhat of a decent patch last time but instead of getting at least SOME balance fixes we didn't get shiet in terms of the actual game and I was so sad.

I'm not expecting didd(l)y squat.

Well at least 3ds Olimar is playable

 

[Teshie U]

Does Marth really need kill confirms when his fsmash can kill as low as 30%?

 

[Antonykun]

Does Marth really need kill confirms when his fsmash can kill as low as 30%?

If he has a kill move he can never use then its the same as having none of that kill move, I think?

 

[Teshie U]

Its not Warlock Punch, its tied for fastest Fsmash in the game and has decent range. How is it not usable?

 

[Quickhero]

Does Marth really need kill confirms when his fsmash can kill as low as 30%?

He can manage well without it. However, if I were to choose between having F-Smash killing super early, or having him kill at like 80-90% with a kill confirm I would gladly take that and Marth in general would be REALLY GOOD with it.

It would really stop Marth from getting into the zone where eventually getting to around 80-95% and beyond become incredibly hard to reliably kill with because the knock-back just becomes too much and then he has troubles just landing (any) Smash attack and he relies even further on just going off-stage and killing with well-timed aerials and having the option to just make it so Marth would be able to transition something into a kill would just be INSANELY beneficial for Marth. Of course, you can still kill quite early, and it hasn't been such a rare occurrence where I can say him killing at like 50% is impossible or even incredibly unlikely, but it's not consistent enough to really say it's the greatest thing around.

I don't want to say he'll be top tier with it, but I could DEFINITELY see Marth become high tier with a change like this.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Hold up... that list was with customs ON?

Yeah never mind it doesn't look right at all...


EDIT: THE SERVERS ARE DOWN FOR MAINTENANCE.
Could we possibly be looking at another patch?

No way an update is happening and if it is its wii u exclusive, as the servers are running perfectly fine on the 3ds.

 

[Antonykun]

Its not Warlock Punch, its tied for fastest Fsmash in the game and has decent range. How is it not usable?

I might be wrong but with Marth's F-smash, you are hoping that the opponent messes up under the right conditions where F-smash would kill them. Where as with a kill confim the kill is under your control.

 

[Ffamran]

Its not Warlock Punch, its tied for fastest Fsmash in the game and has decent range. How is it not usable?

I'm assuming because it's predictable and you really have to be precise with it. Fox on the other hand or rather, the other foot, can Nair to confirm an Up Smash. One of Snow's match had him doing it, but I don't remember which. I think it's this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=a8lf0Ewre-Q#t=360. I think later matches with Snow in that Xanadu had him using Nair to Up Smash a lot.

The other one would be Link's Jab 1 to Down Smash for hit confirm to kill.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm assuming because it's predictable and you really have to be precise with it. Fox on the other hand or rather, the other foot, can Nair to confirm an Up Smash. One of Snow's match had him doing it, but I don't remember which. I think it's this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=a8lf0Ewre-Q#t=360. I think later matches with Snow in that Xanadu had him using Nair to Up Smash a lot.

The other one would be Link's Jab 1 to Down Smash for hit confirm to kill.

Fox can also kill confirm with D-air to U-Smash (classic), and he can also Jab cancel to U-Smash though I believe this only works on short characters.

 

[Teshie U]

Frame 10-12 move that kills under 50% and has the range to punish pretty much anything?

Marth isn't Diddy Kong and he isn't Ness. He isn't bad just because his grab doesn't kill. He has absurd power on a routine punish option and shield breaker to deal with shields just fine.

 

[Antonykun]

Frame 10-12 move that kills under 50% and has the range to punish pretty much anything?

Marth isn't Diddy Kong and he isn't Ness. He isn't bad just because his grab doesn't kill. He has absurd power on a routine punish option and shield breaker to deal with shields just fine.

Just for the record Swordfighter's Kill confirms off a grab require u-air reads

 

[Teshie U]

No way an update is happening and if it is its wii u exclusive, as the servers are running perfectly fine on the 3ds.

patches come at different times for the versions. 3ds was patched a couple of weeks ago and wii u wasnt.

I'm just pointing out that Marth is still a very good character anyway. We shouldn't desire balance that forces all characters to play the same way.

 

[Antonykun]

patches come at different times for the versions. 3ds was patched a couple of weeks ago and wii u wasnt.

I'm just pointing out that Marth is still a very good character anyway. We shouldn't desire balance that forces all characters to play the same way.

A lack of kill confirm is just (part) of the reason he is a super difficult character to use it seems. difficult does not mean bad though.

 

[Ffamran]

A lack of kill confirm is just (part) of the reason he is a super difficult character to use it seems. difficult does not mean bad though.

Speaking of which, what are Diddy's hit confirms? Aside from D-throw which pretty much everyone can use to combo off of or kill out of and Dtilt, I don't know if Diddy just hits hard to kill people or there's something else he can do to kill.

 

[Antonykun]

Speaking of which, what are Diddy's hit confirms? Aside from D-throw which pretty much everyone can use to combo off of or kill out of and Dtilt, I don't know if Diddy just hits hard to kill people or there's something else he can do to kill.

Off the top of my head:
Banana into a bunch of stuff mostly grab
U-air into U-air
D-tilt into grab
U-throw into U-air

 

[Teshie U]

The absurd range and speed on Uair let almost anything set up for it.

He has the fastest upsmash in the game and can even blow himself to kill you off of the trade.

 

[HeavyLobster]

No way an update is happening and if it is its wii u exclusive, as the servers are running perfectly fine on the 3ds.

Replay Sharing?

 

[Charls]

Experienced players know Marths will be looking for a shieldbreak if they see irresponsible shielding; they won't fall for such a telegraphed move. That's part of the reason why Dashing Assault is so good for him, in addition to the trap situations it lends to. Shieldbreaker's only real advantage is being able to punish shields with very hard reads to get an early kill with tipper Fsmash or a second Shieldbreaker. Otherwise, Dashing Assault is superior in every way. Also, landing an Fmash isn't really that hard, but getting a tipper is something else. Although Marth has some legitimate movement options to bait a tipper Fsmash, aiming for one puts you in compromising position be it that you whiff.

 

[Teshie U]

How slow is shield breaker? Unless you always let your shield up after the power shield window is up, you are kind of at risk every time you shield any 1 thing beforehand.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Fox can also kill confirm with D-air to U-Smash (classic), and he can also Jab cancel to U-Smash though I believe this only works on short characters.

Yeah jab cancel can also confirm D-Smash on those that U-smash doesn't work on.

 

[Quickhero]

How slow is shield breaker? Unless you always let your shield up after the power shield window is up, you are kind of at risk every time you shield any 1 thing beforehand.

It's pretty slow, but it isn't TERRIBLE. I use it whenever I run Dolphin Jump many of times because without Crescent Slash Marth can't punish shields that well and it really irks me when he cannot. If you can hard read a shield then you really don't have to shield much in order for it to hit and break a shield. Even if the opponent rarely shields, the fact that the opponent saw Shieldbreaker will mean they likely won't shield much and it really instills a mind game.

Again, Dashing Assault is generally better because of the amount of set-ups that mobility can provide is really high. It's not as terrible as people say, though. It's a lot more situational to actually land but the sheer threat of the opponent's shield getting popped is worth it when I'm running Dolphin Jump. So I wouldn't immediately dismiss it if your Marth isn't running Crescent Slash, since then you don't have a reliable grab combo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Frame 10-12 move that kills under 50% and has the range to punish pretty much anything?

Marth isn't Diddy Kong and he isn't Ness. He isn't bad just because his grab doesn't kill. He has absurd power on a routine punish option and shield breaker to deal with shields just fine.

If you ever get your shield popped by shieldbreaker then you need an intervention.

You obviously have a drinking problem and its effecting your ability to play smash.

****in unacceptable.

patches come at different times for the versions. 3ds was patched a couple of weeks ago and wii u wasnt.

I'm just pointing out that Marth is still a very good character anyway. We shouldn't desire balance that forces all characters to play the same way.

Marth is a poking based character that gets damage from neutral. He is a control character.

But...now he doesnt get damage from pokes. He has no hit confirms into anything unlike Brawl where he had hit confirms into Dancing Blade which was an easy 30% then led into aerial traps with his Uair and U-smash.

Also don't say stuff like Marth is good.

It irks me, because Sakurai clearly intentionally made him NOT good.

yeah double post mah dude

Thug life