Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Side-b hits low (Q_Q [and JC reversed Up-Smash]); aerial uses unexplored and the grab box of up-b is underutilized.

I love dunking people with aerial Raptor Boost.

It's also sort of mind-gamey or "unpredictable" since people might get used to seeing Captain Falcon going deep to recover with Falcon Dive, so they jump off or run off the ledge to do something, but then get dunked in the process.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Since you're here, is Marth and Lucina's Storm Thrust useful in any way? DK's Storm Punch is ludicrous, but then there's Marth and Lucina's which is more concentrated.


Palutena on the other hand and Mii Brawler and Mii Gunner get a lot out of customs from what I hear. This is Pally with Superspeed and Lightweight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCDDTHhAkVw.

Short Answer - The move is not good and very niche.

 

[Antonykun]

if its giving him testosterone then where's the beard

He shaves it 24/7
as Pika i think its really important to learn when NOT to QA as tempting as it is to do a whole battle doing nothing but QA and QA followups.

 

[David Viran]

It isn't that surprising the brawl curse lives on with me getting bodied by him x: lolol

Well you went down swinging at least.

 

[Firefoxx]

Falcon's customs are a mixed bag. He wishes he could have gotten some of the toys that Ganondorf was given for sure. But he does gain some interesting stuff. Falcon Dive vs. Falcon Strike is mostly preference. Early on I was a strong believer in Falcon Strike since it has more vertical reach and I liked the idea of replacing the grab with a hitbox. But command grabs are awesome, and even though Falcon Dive's can be difficult to utilize properly it still really helps and can punish people for crowding the ledge while you recover.

And Raptor Boost. Man, I could go on forever about how great that move is. (Though, as Max showed today it can be very predictable. I knew he was gonna go for that RB at the end of his set vs Ally because that's what basically every Falcon would have done) You can even catch people trying to sweetspot the ledge with spiking portion of aerial Raptor Boost, high risk but crazy high reward. His custom side b's just can't compete. Wind up takes too long to reach people and Heavy can be blocked ON HIT. (Kind of, it makes sense when you see it)

The kicks all have uses. Regular kick is good on the ground and in the air as a GTFO move. Jab 1-2 into kick can take some people by surprise for a KO. Fury is only good on the ground and Lighting's aerial version can set up reliable F-Smash followups, but grounded it isn't even safe on hit. Both have more startup than the default though.

Punch is Punch and you shouldn't use it. I think Dash Punch can punish Monkey Flip's kick on reaction maybe? He crouches lower the the kicks hitbox at the very least. You should never actually try this.

 

[David Viran]

I know you guys are talking about customs and all but I want to know how early jigglys Bair kills. Zero said 90% from the center and I do not remember it ever killing that early for me. Is there a sour spot?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Several hundred pages ago I got into an argument with several people on here... I claimed that Rosa improved a lot if customs were allowed because Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp are so good... but some people insisted that overall Rosalina lost something because so many other characters got "anti-Luma technology."

Going back to that argument now... so Rosa is better with customs on, right?

 

[Flamecircle]

Falcon's customs are a mixed bag. He wishes he could have gotten some of the toys that Ganondorf was given for sure. But he does gain some interesting stuff. Falcon Dive vs. Falcon Strike is mostly preference. Early on I was a strong believer in Falcon Strike since it has more vertical reach and I liked the idea of replacing the grab with a hitbox. But command grabs are awesome, and even though Falcon Dive's can be difficult to utilize properly it still really helps and can punish people for crowding the ledge while you recover.

And Raptor Boost. Man, I could go on forever about how great that move is. (Though, as Max showed today it can be very predictable. I knew he was gonna go for that RB at the end of his set vs Ally because that's what basically every Falcon would have done) His custom side b's just can't compete. Wind up takes too long to reach people and Heavy can be blocked ON HIT. (Kind of, it makes sense when you see it)

The kicks all have uses. Regular kick is good on the ground and in the air as a GTFO move. Jab 1-2 into kick can take some people by surprise for a KO. Fury is only good on the ground and Lighting's aerial version can set up reliable F-Smash followups, but grounded it isn't even safe on hit. Both have more startup than the default though.

Punch is Punch and you shouldn't use it. I think Dash Punch can punish Monkey Flip's kick on reaction maybe? He crouches lower the the kicks hitbox at the very least. You should never actually try this.

I wish more than anything Windup raptor boost was good. Reversing it and hitting someone from behind is some bleach nonsense.

 

[HeroMystic]

I know you guys are talking about customs and all but I want to know how early jigglys Bair kills. Zero said 90% from the center and I do not remember it ever killing that early for me. Is there a sour spot?

Sourspot is at the tip. Jiggs wants to hit closer to her body.

Several hundred pages ago I got into an argument with several people on here... I claimed that Rosa improved a lot if customs were allowed because Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp are so good... but some people insisted that overall Rosalina lost something because so many other characters got "anti-Luma technology."

Going back to that argument now... so Rosa is better with customs on, right?

Considering that Rosalina can get instant stage control with Luma Warp and having a Brawl Falco laser, yes.

The fact that Rosie can has offensive options in neutral with Luma Warp is also something that people have not considered. She becomes an all-in-one character.

 

[NairWizard]

The idea that Rosalina actually gets worse with customs comes from the fact that matchups that she already wins by a lot (say, Ganondorf) get harder for her.

But her worst matchups (say, Diddy Kong) get easier for her.

Since her bad matchups are generally good characters, she gains more than she loses.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The idea that Rosalina actually gets worse with customs comes from the fact that matchups that she already wins by a lot (say, Ganondorf) get harder for her.

But her worst matchups (say, Diddy Kong) get easier for her.

Since her bad matchups are generally good characters, she gains more than she loses.

Very true. Rosa doesn't mind if a bunch of characters with marginal tourney presence only lose 55/45 instead of 60/40 if she gets better MUs in return against 2/3 characters that everyone and their dog is using in tourney. Of course, this is also generally a win for the aforementioned low to mid tiers, and nobody's going to be crying a river for Diddy and Sheik mains who have a slightly tougher time with Rosa now.

 

[Djent]

Eh, I still think could end up being the best with customs on. He's already obviously better than everyone minus //.

Devs: "Hey! What if we take this already-busted move, and just make it even dumber?" Meanwhile, the other top tiers get smaller buffs.

 

[DanGR]

Rosalina's matchup with Diddy is so bad it's not worth using her in the matchup, customs or not. She potentially gains a few percent each stock with Shooting bits, and the occasional combo with Luma Warp, but it's not enough to pick her over a pocket counter you've practiced for half the time.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I would say the best character w/ customs on isconsidering he gains buffs in his edgeguarding prowess, a new finisher and a really solid projectile. Because most if not all his customs are good, he gains a bit of versatility and can use the right set of customs for nearly any MU.

Of course, this is just speculation.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Rosalina's matchup with Diddy is so bad it's not worth using her in the matchup, customs or not. She potentially gains a few percent each stock with Shooting bits, and the occasional combo with Luma Warp, but it's not enough to pick her over a pocket counter you've practiced for half the time.

Diddy's not a fun match-up regardless, but I wouldn't be terrified to challenge one with Rosalina if I have my customs. SSB's main point here is to force Diddy to approach; he can't just sit back forever waiting to snipe Luma and instead has to actively engage with you, and Luma Warp is further disincentive for him to just hang back. I view the main problem in fighting Diddy as Rosalina is that Rosalina has no real way to escalate a conflict so, if she's losing, Diddy can play cautiously and rely on his extremely heavy punishes off small conversions and his exceptional ability to kill Luma. If I have the tools to make a slow, defensive playstyle for Diddy less rewarding, I can force him to actually engage with Rosalina's strengths as a character, and I feel the match-up can be overcome. I don't really care at all about the damage my customs do directly (though SSB is pretty much a pure upgrade here over the horrible default side-B!); I care about the neutral applications they have to make the game be played differently.

I also have very serious doubts that a truly great Diddy counter exists in this game; if there were a character who had a large advantage vs Diddy Kong, I'd definitely be tempted to pick them up as a secondary, but if any secondary I pick up probably either still has some form of a losing match-up to Diddy or at best is about even, isn't it more efficient to just master the disadvantaged match-up instead of "spreading my skill" between two characters? I feel like half of what I am learning every time I play with Rosalina applies to only her, and I kinda feel like mastering this character is on some level exclusive to having a truly good secondary especially since it seems like most characters who are natural secondaries to her are among the other hard to play characters (if I were just going to pick a secondary without regards to difficulty, I'd pick Peach, but Peach is another character who is IMO just not practical as anything but a main).

---

I am not nearly as familiar with the non-custom game so saying who "becomes" top tier when customs are on relies on a lot more imagination on my part since I have to imagine characters without custom options, but I still feel like we're still in that early metagame mode which is exaggerated by some characters seeming to be given "free hype" a lot more than others. Like from where I'm sitting, Pikachu's overall result levels are pretty comparable to Yoshi's, and on a basic level to me Yoshi's tools seem better than Pikachu's, but most people are listing Pikachu as a top character and keep forgetting Yoshi. Then you have a character like Peach who is seeing very little play, but the more I look at her the more I'm convinced she's really very, very good. I could be wrong about any specific character claims, but I'm pretty sure I'm a lot more right in general that the Diddy/Sheik show is more about what we don't know than about what we do and that in a year we'll be playing a game that looks a lot different...

 

[adom4]

Who won that team sp00ky tournament yesterday? Dabuz?

 

[Yokoblue]

Who won that team sp00ky tournament yesterday? Dabuz?

Yes it was Dabuz.

 

[Emblem Lord]

People sleeping on Sheiks customs. She seriously only has 3 good customs imo but they are damn good.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's Missiles in a nutshell:
Floating Missile >>>>>>>> Green Missile >>>> Quick Missile

Best Luigi customs IMO:
1 or 3 (Haven't seen Iceball getting used smartly, but that's what they say)
2 (Straight upgrade from original)
1 or 3 (SJP and BH works pretty well. Fiery Jump Punch is pretty trash)
1 (The might of the original Cyclone!)

On the other note, I have been playing as Ganon lately and... yeah, he is super fun to play. D-throw -> DA -> U-smash all day!

And was playing as Falco yesterday and killed a Falcon with D-throw -> Phantasm spike at something like 5% to 10%. Plus, he messed up his recovery.... Very satisfying.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

People sleeping on Sheiks customs. She seriously only has 3 good customs imo but they are damn good.

i personally only know about sheild eating needle and gravity grenade.

i think gravity grenade is nice and a improvement but it still seems hard as balls to land on wary opponents.

 

[Pazx]

I'm like 3 pages late for (custom) WFT talk but I want it to be clear that jumbo hoops are not a direct upgrade from the default as it really hinders the character's offstage game which is what keeps her afloat in a non-custom meta. @ Shaya I'd love to hear your thoughts if you have any (no disrespect intended, it'd be nice to have input from someone who has faced WFT).

pls fix keyboard

 

[FullMoon]

So, do you guys think customs make the game overall more balanced? I haven't been able to watch the tournament so I don't really know much about how the meta is shaping up with customs on.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So, do you guys think customs make the game overall more balanced? I haven't been able to watch the tournament so I don't really know much about how the meta is shaping up with customs on.

Some people are gonna get a nasty wake up call when they realize custom moves won't solve any of this games balance issues. All it does is make more character tourny viable. Jank is still jank.

 

[Quickhero]

So, do you guys think customs make the game overall more balanced? I haven't been able to watch the tournament so I don't really know much about how the meta is shaping up with customs on.

Rosalina just got one of her major drawbacks removed with Luma Warp and is absolute cancer, but besides that, it's definitely better. A lot more characters have potential at EVO (I'm going to need ridiculous conditioning against Rosalina before I can think about going in as a pure melee character) and besides her, customs are really fun to see. :3

I also agree with @ Road Death Wheel though, of course it's not going to change any balance in terms of design of the characters, what I meant by balance was more characters being tournament level viable, which is currently happening.

 

[TriTails]

So, do you guys think customs make the game overall more balanced? I haven't been able to watch the tournament so I don't really know much about how the meta is shaping up with customs on.

I feel yes. Some characters benefit greatly from customs (Especially the heavies) and should make some of their MUs easier.

Though, I'm still wondering why Gust Cape existed. The move's windbox's sick.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I think doctor mario is the most underused character in the game just because mario's learning curve isn't near as difficult. Honestly he's not that bad if you can get a couple combo's off, then you can get extremely early kills.

 

[Radical Larry]

I feel yes. Some characters benefit greatly from customs (Especially the heavies) and should make some of their MUs easier.

Though, I'm still wondering why Gust Cape existed. The move's windbox's sick.

I honestly believe Doc benefits heavily with Gust Cape, since he doesn't rely on stopping momentum like Mario does, allowing him to gimp opponents much easier with it. However, certain moves can defeat it, a prime example being Whirling Leap or Dolphin Jump.

I think doctor mario is the most underused character in the game just because mario's learning curve isn't near as difficult. Honestly he's not that bad if you can get a couple combo's off, then you can get extremely early kills.

Doc can get a combo of U-Smash off for heavy damage, depending on character and DI. It's just a simple D-Throw > U-Smash > Repeat U-Smash combo. If not that, he can just use his U-Smash > U-Spec combo, which isn't a bad combo whatsoever.

He might not have much of the good things Mario has, but he has the tools to be decent; that U-Spec is basically a better version of Luigi's since it can easily gimp opponents and can be safer on block.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Doc can get a combo of U-Smash off for heavy damage, depending on character and DI. It's just a simple D-Throw > U-Smash > Repeat U-Smash combo. If not that, he can just use his U-Smash > U-Spec combo, which isn't a bad combo whatsoever.

He might not have much of the good things Mario has, but he has the tools to be decent; that U-Spec is basically a better version of Luigi's since it can easily gimp opponents and can be safer on block.

pill/down tilt, up tilt, up tilt, up tilt, up tilt, etc., up air, back air
solid 51% Right there

Luigi's Missiles in a nutshell:
Floating Missile >>>>>>>> Green Missile >>>> Quick Missile

Best Luigi customs IMO:
1 or 3 (Haven't seen Iceball getting used smartly, but that's what they say)
2 (Straight upgrade from original)
1 or 3 (SJP and BH works pretty well. Fiery Jump Punch is pretty trash)
1 (The might of the original Cyclone!)

On the other note, I have been playing as Ganon lately and... yeah, he is super fun to play. D-throw -> DA -> U-smash all day!

And was playing as Falco yesterday and killed a Falcon with D-throw -> Phantasm spike at something like 5% to 10%. Plus, he messed up his recovery.... Very satisfying.

Any fireball is good to use with luigi, Floating missile is dead even with the green missile because it leaves you much more open then the green missile will ever do, as you take longer to hit the ground or begin falling
As for the up b, its pointless to get rid of luigi's best punishing move for a move that will hardly ever hit and you will rarely get follow ups out of. And yes, fiery jump punch is trash.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Falco's Fthrow to Phantasm is so good. The only people it doesn't work on are the people who know about it lol.
And up throw to up air works at kill percents depending on DI. Back throw kills and Dthrow combos. His grab game is quite extensive imo

 

[thehard]

So... all of Dark.Pch's recent videos... and this: http://youtu.be/BFhfj5RofZ8

She might be the #1 most slept on character right now.

 

[Ulevo]

And this is why we don't ban Kong Cyclone. Because DK is still not a good character.

Right.

 

[Iron Kraken]

One more thing about Rosalina (apparently I'm obsessed!). Customs make her much more fun both to play as and to watch. (Even if she's not more fun to play against)

You know how people worry about the fact that Rosalina can become even more campy with Shooting Star Bit? Maybe, but here's the thing - the Shooting Star Bit actually forces approaches in matches that might otherwise be a game of chicken. And Luma Warp kind of does that too. Opponents know that they have to be aggressive against customs Rosa, and this in turn makes the overall game more aggressive on both sides. Which I find a lot more fun to play, and it's certainly a lot more fun to watch.

Case in point, many of the same people who complained about Dabuz's "boring" playstyle during Apex were pretty hyped about watching his customs Rosa yesterday.

Just food for thought for the people who claim that customs make the game more campy and worse. *cough*ZeRo*cough*

---

Also, I don't get why people think it's a good idea to ban specific customs, barring these customs making a character completely overpowered or over-centralizing the metagame.

Kong's Cyclone and Villager's Counter Tree might be really good... but no one here is arguing that these moves make them better than Diddy or Sheik, right? So the idea of banning these moves makes zero sense, unless you want to ban Diddy and Sheik too. Banning things arbitrarily based on what some people find annoying is not a feasible approach.

 

[Terotrous]

I greatly disagree that their approach game is insane and they don't wait to punish things. The Koopalings actually stink at approaching in general, which is considered by Koopaling mains themselves as one of their greatest weaknesses.

This has basically been my experience when I've played against Jr. Dude seems to have a ton of trouble getting in vs Eggs. His zoning tools just don't compare to what Yoshi's capable of and Side B also doesn't seem to be a great a. He can put in some work when he gets in, but overall I approach the MU very similar to Kirby (ie, maximum campy lameness).

The only piece of ragemail I've actually gotten in this game was from a Jr player. He called me a "tryhard" and asked if I was just going to sit there throwing eggs all day, lol.

We need to talk about customs Rosalina.

We all thought she'd be weaker in a customs environment but she just gets immensely more powerful with Luma warp.

Wait what who thought she'd be weaker? I thought the consensus was always that she'd be one of the best characters, since she's already great with customs off and Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp are so good.

Imo, Yoshi isn't terrible with customs, it's just that he's a lot better of without them. He gets a better recovery, but loses a fantastic projectile. He loses a command grab. He loses a kill move. 1111 Yoshi is the best set.

I've been saying this for ages. 1X11 Yoshi is definitely the best set overall (Side B is trivial). 1X31 has use, but only in specific matchups. I don't think Neutral B or Down B should ever be changed.

Is the shooting stars customs useful in any way for Yoshi? Also, Lick's okay, right?

Shooting Stars lets you abuse DownB more, but you lose a ton of kill power. Maybe vs characters who just juggle the bejeezus out of you so you can use it to get back to the stage, but no specific matchup is coming to mind right now.

You really can't drop Egg Lay because Yoshi's grab reward is too low. You need command grab to threaten shield. The free juggle attempt you get afterwards is nice too.

Ultimately Yoshi's default kit is just really well put together. Lick and Shooting Stars are not bad, it's just that they don't compliment Yoshi's other tools as well.

Rosalina's matchup with Diddy is so bad it's not worth using her in the matchup, customs or not. She potentially gains a few percent each stock with Shooting bits, and the occasional combo with Luma Warp, but it's not enough to pick her over a pocket counter you've practiced for half the time.

Eh, even in customs on I'm sceptical that Diddy has any matchups that are worse than even, it's not like you can really counterpick him. It's probably best to just stick with the character you know the best, don't underestimate the value of experience and familiarity. You're going up against impossible odds either way, you might as well have your best character on your side.


Anyway, time to go track down that customs tournament. Hopefully the twitch archive is still up.

EDIT: It is, it's here

 

[Antonykun]

can someone explain to me why floaty star bits aren't good? Maybe I'm just obsessed with Lloyd

 

[Iron Kraken]

can someone explain to me why floaty star bits aren't good? Maybe I'm just obsessed with Lloyd

Floaty Star Bit has its uses as far as setting up traps. But the main reason not to use it is because in order to do so you have to give up Shooting Star Bit, which is just too good.

 

[Radical Larry]

pill/down tilt, up tilt, up tilt, up tilt, up tilt, etc., up air, back air
solid 51% Right there


Any fireball is good to use with luigi, Floating missile is dead even with the green missile because it leaves you much more open then the green missile will ever do, as you take longer to hit the ground or begin falling
As for the up b, its pointless to get rid of luigi's best punishing move for a move that will hardly ever hit and you will rarely get follow ups out of. And yes, fiery jump punch is trash.

(First of all, whoever sent the double post warning about this post, that was quite rude. The guy didn't even double post because I posted right before him.)

Aside from that little thing, back on topic; if you use Doc's U-Smash around 10% or so with your opponent, you can garner a solid 60% to 70% and still have low enough knockback to set up into aerial attacks. I always find it nice to use.

can someone explain to me why floaty star bits aren't good? Maybe I'm just obsessed with Lloyd

Floaty Star Bits aren't good because they're like Mario and Doc's giant fireball and pills as they come out extremely slowly, have poor range and are very easily dodged. The attacks also produce high start up lag and are easy to punish by reflector and shields. Link's Ripping Boomerang is considerably better since it comes out faster and has more range.

If they do land the hits, they are good for pressuring shields and setting up grab-to-combo strategies. They are also decent as edge-guarding tools due to their long lasting length.

Floaty Star Bit has its uses as far as setting up traps. But the main reason not to use it is because in order to do so you have to give up Shooting Star Bit, which is just too good.

Yeah, Shooting Star Bits are very great at use, especially against Villager's recovery.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Been experimenting with Doc's up b 3 (the explosion one). D-throw true combos into it at low percents for ludicrous amounts of damage. Possibly the most powerful and damaging OOS option in the game, too. I have never seen the first hit not combo into the second, so it's really reliable.
Only problem is you're recovery is so bad it makes you jealous of little mac's...

 

[Radical Larry]

Been experimenting with Doc's up b 3 (the explosion one). D-throw true combos into it at low percents for ludicrous amounts of damage. Possibly the most powerful and damaging OOS option in the game, too. I have never seen the first hit not combo into the second, so it's really reliable.
Only problem is you're recovery is so bad it makes you jealous of little mac's...

I'd prefer the start-up attack with the vanilla special, Super Jump Punch. It deals considerable damage as well and gives you a better recovery at least. As well, it's tenfold reliable in KO'ing, since you can't really hit opponents at higher percents with Doc Up B 3, if they have proper DI and whatnot. With the vanilla special, you can at least make sure your opponent stays off the edge.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Time For The Results Of The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List!​

This is the first tier list voted on to include customs being on when people voted. While there was only 600+ votes this month compared to last month breaking over 800 I still think this was a solid effort and that there may have been less votes because some people just didn't know enough about customs to feel comfortable voting. For those who don't know the procedure behind these, players rank each character 1 though 10, 1 being that character sucks, 10 being that character is awesome, I take the averages, and then present them for everyone to see. I also asked folks what characters people think have hidden potential, and are overrated so we can share the top 3 results.

WITHOUT FURTHER ADO HERE ARE THE RESULTS!​

I covered everything in a nice little Imgur album this month to save some space here. As always I'm looking forward to seeing the discussion here on this list. You can discuss it on reddit as well by clicking here. So guys, discuss away!

 

[Terotrous]

Time For The Results Of The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List!​

This is the first tier list voted on to include customs being on when people voted. While there was only 600+ votes this month compared to last month breaking over 800 I still think this was a solid effort and that there may have been less votes because some people just didn't know enough about customs to feel comfortable voting. For those who don't know the procedure behind these, players rank each character 1 though 10, 1 being that character sucks, 10 being that character is awesome, I take the averages, and then present them for everyone to see. I also asked folks what characters people think have hidden potential, and are overrated so we can share the top 3 results.

WITHOUT FURTHER ADO HERE ARE THE RESULTS!​

I covered everything in a nice little Imgur album this month to save some space here. As always I'm looking forward to seeing the discussion here on this list. You can discuss it on reddit as well by clicking here. So guys, discuss away!

Mii Gunner lower than Zelda with Customs on just shows why you really shouldn't bother with Reddit, IMO. In general, apart from Palutena it just looks like a customs off list, which makes me question how many of the people voting have any serious experience with the customs metagame.