Character Competitive Impressions

[HeroMystic]

Been experimenting with Doc's up b 3 (the explosion one). D-throw true combos into it at low percents for ludicrous amounts of damage. Possibly the most powerful and damaging OOS option in the game, too. I have never seen the first hit not combo into the second, so it's really reliable.
Only problem is you're recovery is so bad it makes you jealous of little mac's...

Doc already has good damage output and his Vanilla Up-B is much better. Mario has the same Up-B 3 and he gets more gains out of it than Doc does.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Mii Gunner lower than Zelda with Customs on just shows why you really shouldn't bother with Reddit, IMO. In general, apart from Palutena it just looks like a customs off list, which makes me question how many of the people voting have any serious experience with the customs metagame.

I've been considering making a separate poll here for Smashboards just to see if it would get enough responses and how they would compare. Think it'd be worth doing?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc already has good damage output and his Vanilla Up-B is much better. Mario has the same Up-B 3 and he gets more gains out of it than Doc does.

This this this this this.

Doc Up+B 1 is SOOOO good. If anything you should be running Fast Capsule, Breezy Sheet, and Nado-1/Nado-2 depending on preference and MU

 

[FullMoon]

Time For The Results Of The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List!​

This is the first tier list voted on to include customs being on when people voted. While there was only 600+ votes this month compared to last month breaking over 800 I still think this was a solid effort and that there may have been less votes because some people just didn't know enough about customs to feel comfortable voting. For those who don't know the procedure behind these, players rank each character 1 though 10, 1 being that character sucks, 10 being that character is awesome, I take the averages, and then present them for everyone to see. I also asked folks what characters people think have hidden potential, and are overrated so we can share the top 3 results.

WITHOUT FURTHER ADO HERE ARE THE RESULTS!​

I covered everything in a nice little Imgur album this month to save some space here. As always I'm looking forward to seeing the discussion here on this list. You can discuss it on reddit as well by clicking here. So guys, discuss away!

And Greninja is once again just out of top 15.

He's just out of A tier though and that pleases me.

 

[Terotrous]

I've been considering making a separate poll here for Smashboards just to see if it would get enough responses and how they would compare. Think it'd be worth doing?

I'm honestly not convinced that a poll is a great way to construct a tierlist. There just aren't enough people with enough experience to rank everyone (and I include myself among those that don't), so you're either going to get very few votes, or a lot of uninformed votes.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

WITHOUT FURTHER ADO HERE ARE THE RESULTS!​

​

Is it me, or does Reddit just hate Wario? Because this is the second time they have put him lowish. And I find that to be silly.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's generally common knowledge that Wario is actually a really great character but he doesn't have a lot of representation so knowledge about him to the public especially is greatly limited, which affects his placement in community voted tierlists pretty harshly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Been experimenting with Doc's up b 3 (the explosion one). D-throw true combos into it at low percents for ludicrous amounts of damage. Possibly the most powerful and damaging OOS option in the game, too. I have never seen the first hit not combo into the second, so it's really reliable.
Only problem is you're recovery is so bad it makes you jealous of little mac's...

By running Up-B 3, you cannot punish crossovers as reliably and you cannot reverse your Up-B to reposition towards a platform or ledge. Your opponent has to be directly in front of you for the move to properly connect, while default Up-B does not have any such restriction.

Note that Default Up-B is also 3 frames, allowing it to interrupt a lot of things, while Up-B 3 in contrast is only 5 frames.

Default Doc Up-B is THE reason why it's ridiculously unsafe to get predictable when pressuring Doc.

And by all means, I would be amused to see Wario get used more competitively, because Ganon wins that matchup.

 

[Antonykun]

Well it's official, Swordfighter is a memeic loser. Almost all tier list have his as the worst of them all.
Guess thats what happens when you lack speed range and have a lot of end lag.

 

[Nu~]

Lol link in high B tier.
Annnnd, Pac-Man somehow falls with customs.

It's not like they fix his main flaw or anything.

EDIT: wait, hold up...wii fit trainer is bottom of C tier with customs???
What has the world come to

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well customs don't give Pac-Man a good grab so his biggest flaw still remains. That is the ONE thing that prevents him from being really stupid.

Don't see how he'd drop that far tho

 

[Nu~]

Well customs don't give Pac-Man a good grab so his biggest flaw still remains. That is the ONE thing that prevents him from being really stupid.

Don't see how he'd drop that far tho

They do give him very strong kill confirms though.
The grab does still remain though...

But I lost faith in the list when I saw meta knight in C tier and link in B tier

 

[hey_there]

Floating missile is dead even with the green missile because it leaves you much more open then the green missile will ever do, as you take longer to hit the ground or begin falling.

That's not actually true. If you go to Battlefield and use Floating Missile on one of the lower level platforms you can nair before hitting the ground. If you use Green Missile you'll hit the ground before being able to do anything.

Green Missile's advantages are higher damage potential and the strongest misfire. The parabolic arc Luigi flies in could also be considered an advantage, I suppose.

 

[DanGR]

Diddy's not a fun match-up regardless, but I wouldn't be terrified to challenge one with Rosalina if I have my customs. SSB's main point here is to force Diddy to approach; he can't just sit back forever waiting to snipe Luma and instead has to actively engage with you, and Luma Warp is further disincentive for him to just hang back. I view the main problem in fighting Diddy as Rosalina is that Rosalina has no real way to escalate a conflict so, if she's losing, Diddy can play cautiously and rely on his extremely heavy punishes off small conversions and his exceptional ability to kill Luma. If I have the tools to make a slow, defensive playstyle for Diddy less rewarding, I can force him to actually engage with Rosalina's strengths as a character, and I feel the match-up can be overcome. I don't really care at all about the damage my customs do directly (though SSB is pretty much a pure upgrade here over the horrible default side-B!); I care about the neutral applications they have to make the game be played differently.

I also have very serious doubts that a truly great Diddy counter exists in this game; if there were a character who had a large advantage vs Diddy Kong, I'd definitely be tempted to pick them up as a secondary, but if any secondary I pick up probably either still has some form of a losing match-up to Diddy or at best is about even, isn't it more efficient to just master the disadvantaged match-up instead of "spreading my skill" between two characters? I feel like half of what I am learning every time I play with Rosalina applies to only her, and I kinda feel like mastering this character is on some level exclusive to having a truly good secondary especially since it seems like most characters who are natural secondaries to her are among the other hard to play characters (if I were just going to pick a secondary without regards to difficulty, I'd pick Peach, but Peach is another character who is IMO just not practical as anything but a main).

---

I am not nearly as familiar with the non-custom game so saying who "becomes" top tier when customs are on relies on a lot more imagination on my part since I have to imagine characters without custom options, but I still feel like we're still in that early metagame mode which is exaggerated by some characters seeming to be given "free hype" a lot more than others. Like from where I'm sitting, Pikachu's overall result levels are pretty comparable to Yoshi's, and on a basic level to me Yoshi's tools seem better than Pikachu's, but most people are listing Pikachu as a top character and keep forgetting Yoshi. Then you have a character like Peach who is seeing very little play, but the more I look at her the more I'm convinced she's really very, very good. I could be wrong about any specific character claims, but I'm pretty sure I'm a lot more right in general that the Diddy/Sheik show is more about what we don't know than about what we do and that in a year we'll be playing a game that looks a lot different...

In practice, I've found SSB too laggy to act as a camping projectile or one that forces engagements. Instead, I think it functions in neutral solely as a deterrent to camping, and sometimes hitting at long ranges if they're caught off-guard. For example, it's effective against Link and Duck Hunt to prevent their camping setups. But it's not complex enough of a projectile and has too high a cooldown to use in that mid-range (just inside Luma Warp range) where Diddy can play patiently. Think Brawl Zelda. Din's doesn't force approaches. It just forces you to play closer.

I see what you mean, and I agree to an extent about the advantages of sticking to one character, but I think there are a few characters with similar-ish (there's nothing truly similar to playing Rosalina) playstyles in terms of patient zoning that do better in some troubled matchups. I've recently picked up Mega Man and still have my Brawl Olimar instincts. Just to name a few similarities:

• Olimar pikmin priority is similar to Luma priority, and you work around its faults in the same way- being careful about clanking with attacks and choosing options that don't leave you open if they clash with pikmin/Luma.

• With both Mega Man and Rosalina, you primarily use jab and n-air for zoning/spacing respectively in neutral (cool huh?). Both jabs have some similarities that make the transition relatively easy: long range, both great in neutral at close/mid-range, they have similar frame data when it comes to players jumping OoS into aerials or rolling behind as punishment options. As for n-air, with both characters you retreat with some of them, and land close to their shield with others. Jabbing after n-airs works effectively with both characters to prevent some OoS punishment options.

A few minor similarities that form good defensive habits that transition well between characters:

• Both Mega Man and Olimar help sharpen your rolling habits, because like Rosalina, their boxing games aren't the best.
• Both characters have default recoveries without hitboxes. If you use Rosalina's custom up-b that travels very quickly, you'll have experience teching stage spikes in the same way you do with Olimar/Mega Man default up-b. (I've recently been favoring the other two Mega Man up-bs though.)
• None of them have quick aerial options to force aerial trades in sticky situations.

For matchups, I currently think both Mega Man and Olimar do much better against Diddy. I think Mega man does better vs Captain Falcon. They both generally do well against campers if you prefer not to play Rosalina for those matchups. I think with Shadow Blade Mega Man might beat Rosalina, so you potentially have that for dittos. I haven't played the matchup much yet, but I speculate Mega Man shuts down Peach pretty hard by keeping her grounded with lemon spam- could be wrong about that one.

 

[TTTTTsd]

They do give him very strong kill confirms though.
The grab does still remain though...

But I lost faith in the list when I saw meta knight in C tier and link in B tier

Kill confirms are interesting but I'm not positive how good they truly are when Pac-Man is really best at time-outs and winning through stuff like that. I agree they make him a bit better and I don't think he should drop at all, or if he has to by just a lil, but IDK how much Pac-Man's goal is to outright take stocks beyond maybe the first one.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Pac's main flaw is his lack of kill moves, since trampoline ignores shields.

The first one gets fixed by Meteor Trampoline and Freaky Strawberry can make Grab guaranteed.

 

[Antonykun]

They do give him very strong kill confirms though.
The grab does still remain though...

But I lost faith in the list when I saw meta knight in C tier and link in B tier

Meta Knight is in WHAT tier?!
And he goes up in two spots despite gaining (almost) nothing from customs?!
uhhhhh these people are sleeping on MK

 

[NairWizard]

Like from where I'm sitting, Pikachu's overall result levels are pretty comparable to Yoshi's, and on a basic level to me Yoshi's tools seem better than Pikachu's, but most people are listing Pikachu as a top character and keep forgetting Yoshi.

I've talked before about why Yoshi's tools aren't quite Top Tier (his neutral is much more punishable than has been claimed; his grab and throw combos hold him back), but I think the relevant metric in this case is not tools but matchups. Pikachu is generally agreed upon to beat Rosalina, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, and probably Diddy (some people believe it's 50:50; others believe it's 55:45 in Pikachu's favor--I could be persuaded either way). That's 4 of the 5 generally perceived Top Tiers (the other being Sheik, which is a contentious matchup but is close to even either way). Can Yoshi boast that? Yoshi's MUs are really good, but the Top Tiers tend to have jank that work well against him. Sheik, Diddy, and ZSS likely win; Rosalina wins as well according to Dabuz; and Sonic may be at a small disadvantage or even.

That's all there is to it. It's not that Pikachu's tools are better; it's that his matchups among top tiers are better.

Perhaps Yoshi will prove to be better when other characters rise to the top in a customs meta: maybe Lucario becomes really good somehow, and Yoshi is a monster in the Lucario MU due to greater weight. Who knows? As things are right now, though, I can't justify Yoshi being as good as Pikachu, let alone better or deserving of equal amounts of hype, though I am aware that Pikachu's results haven't been great since ESAM dropped the game (notwithstanding local success on my part or the parts of a few other Pikachu mains). However, it is worth saying that Yoshi is for sure an underplayed character, much like Peach, and there's much room for advancement in his metagame.

 

[TyGotKrazyy50]

I think Mii Gunner is underrated.... He/She has great Special! The grabs are okay.. My problem is killing but everything else is fabulous!!! !

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pac's main flaw is his lack of kill moves, since trampoline ignores shields.

The first one gets fixed by Meteor Trampoline and Freaky Strawberry can make Grab guaranteed.

Trampoline isn't perfect because Pac Man can't strictly maintain offensive pressure after using it. A legitimately good grab in conjunction with items and his generally quick aerials however would give him a very scary offensive game.

However, it is worth saying that Yoshi is for sure an underplayed character, much like Peach, and there's much room for advancement in his metagame.

I feel like the main thing preventing someone like Peach from being really insane in contrast is that her ground game is actually kinda bad. Doesn't run fast, and doesn't really have good pokes (though her Dash Attack is good). Especially without a good Jab cancel game (of all the characters, Peach got hit hardest by this nerf imo), she does kinda poorly in neutral, except Turnips prevent her from being awful given item tossing is fundamentally broken. Then we get into the problem that Turnip pulling is fairly laggy in this game. If she turns out to be strong, I suspect it will be more on the lines of being polarizing rather than a solid all round pick.

 

[Ffamran]

Meta Knight is in WHAT tier?!
And he goes up in two spots despite gaining (almost) nothing from customs?!
uhhhhh these people are sleeping on MK

Ike is also consistently being placed low tier for some reason.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well it's official, Swordfighter is a memeic loser. Almost all tier list have his as the worst of them all.
Guess thats what happens when you lack speed range and have a lot of end lag.

It's...just alot of false information.

I have been playing with him a bit more and more. His main issue is that his best moves share slots and he legit has a few really bad moves that are useless and no move is godlike i.e Brawler Feint Jump or Gunner Grenade Launcher.

But he has legit kill set-ups and kill confirms. He also has Marth's landing trap from Brawl. Swordfighters Uair is a TRUE auto cancel. Do a SH Uair and when he lands he will land with 3 frames of land recovery even though he is still spinning. Then you can react to their option. Uair also does 15% on it's own and can kill around 100% as long as you hit with the first hitbox. He has a nice jab combo which can lead to mix-ups from throw or U-smash at kill percents.

Nair is nice as is bair. His U-throw is good for trap set-ups and his d-throw can leads to true combos and yes kill combos with Uair.

He is greatly underestimated. People want him to be Brawl Marth. He isn't. Though I feel he sets up situations better then Marth.

Also his down B options lets him counter pick any character in the game.

 

[Saturn_]

I don't think individual placement of characters with few tourney reps really reveals much about a community voted tier list, especially one that allowed you to abstain from voting. I'm much more interested in the outliers, like Palutena, who jumped 32 (!) spots with customs on and was voted char w/ "most potential". I also think it's interesting two of the top three characters were voted "most overrated".

 

[CrimsonSmasher]

Well it's official, Swordfighter is a memeic loser. Almost all tier list have his as the worst of them all.
Guess thats what happens when you lack speed range and have a lot of end lag.

Unfortunately, that's been the thing since December iirc.

 

[Saturn_]

It's generally common knowledge that Wario is actually a really great character but he doesn't have a lot of representation so knowledge about him to the public especially is greatly limited, which affects his placement in community voted tierlists pretty harshly.

Unfortunately, that's been the thing since December iirc.

I am absolutely one of those herd-minded sheeple you all talk about...I don't have that much time on the game and I was glad there was a choice to abstain in the vote, because I haven't even played the Mii characters yet. If I think they're "bad" it's only because everyone else says so...not that I do, it's just that, when lots of people tell you something, you kind of start to believe it.

This game has such a huge roster, so many moves and interactions, so many layers that I really only trust a handful of Smashers' opinions. Most people, myself included, are pretty much talking nonsense when they say they know the game. A community tier list is a lot of fun and I'm a big fan of that sort of stuff, but I try to take it for the fluff it is.

 

[Luco]

Looking like Ness and Diddy Kong.

Hmm, not quite true on our end. It turns out Lasting PK Thunder (Lucas' PKT) is quite a viable edge-guarding tool and is pretty much useful for the same reason Lucas' one was in Brawl. It mitigates recovery issues because barrelling into someone doesn't cut your PKT2 distance half-way, and it's possible to trap people in the bolt and do 50%+ damage (@Noa. posted a video of this a while back, it's craaaazyyyyy). It's definitely good to have this in quite a few MUs.

PSI Vacuum is also a good custom to use in MUs where regular magnet isn't applicable. It can mess with recovery spacing and I'm not actually sure how good its other uses are but probably better than regular Magnet in some circumstances.

And finally PK Fire burst is good against extremely light characters that just DI out of regular PK Fire the moment it starts. It's a bit awkward and has a bit more landing lag than I'd like, but the guaranteed damage and KB on it is pretty neat, and I've even see it kill at respectable percentages in edge-guarding situations before.

So Ness does get a bit better from customs after all. His meta is still developing in this area, really, but we have some really dedicated players who are putting in the work with it and it's nice to see we can jump on the customs bandwagon for our own benefit as well as the general meta's. =)

 

[Nu~]

Kill confirms are interesting but I'm not positive how good they truly are when Pac-Man is really best at time-outs and winning through stuff like that. I agree they make him a bit better and I don't think he should drop at all, or if he has to by just a lil, but IDK how much Pac-Man's goal is to outright take stocks beyond maybe the first one.

I don't meant to call you out but...
Why do people keep saying this?

It's like when people said that villager and duck hunt were strictly campers (Sonic camps better than both of them, which is disgusting, but that's another story)

Pac-Man was built to be a toolbox and trap character. His camp game isn't solid enough to rely on for the entire match because his camp tools weren't built to keep the opponent out forever.
Fruits can be power shielded and half of them travel slowly, the trampoline doesn't matter againt opponents that prefer the air, and the hydrant can be blasted back in Pac-Man's face if he leaves it unattended and tries to over rely on it.

Camping with Pac-Man will only get so far in the long run since his camping game has consistent holes in it.

...But that's because he wasn't made to be a camper :O


If you study Pac-Man closer, you realize that his tools are supposed to work together to combat every situation.
Even his frame data suggests that he can do a lot more than just camp behind his hydrant and trampoline.


The fruit have different properties that help in a multitude of situations.
They can stop approaches, they can help you rush the opponent down, they can combo or lead to kills... and much more.

Combined with the hydrant and trampoline, you have legitimate, powerful traps. Each fruit has a different trajectory when pushed by the water, which can cover even more approaches and control space.
The trampoline resets the game to nuetral, but it can't help you camp for too long. Instead, you can use it for dangerous traps such as bouncing an opponent out of the spawn plate to steal their invincibility (this trolls olimar)
Or you can place it by the ledge to cover every get up option outside of jump (which is covered by fruits).
The hydrant and trampoline can even help you rush down opponents. The hydrant can be used as a shield if you jab it, allowing you to have a hitbox surrounding you as you go in, and the trampoline can be offensively when your opponent tries to undergo a defensive maneuver while you are in their face.

The properties of your tools allow for a multitude of possibilities, but none of them are going to help you win alone.
You can't play Pac-Man with one playstyle and expect to win, you have to constantly switch your game up and get creative to overcome every scenario.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You know if anybody masters this bloody zelda tech she might just end up one of the most frustrating characters to fight in the game.

Honestly no disadvantage state at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo_ZkdDoWU8

 

[Antonykun]

It's...just alot of false information.

I have been playing with him a bit more and more. His main issue is that his best moves share slots and he legit has a few really bad moves that are useless and no move is godlike i.e Brawler Feint Jump or Gunner Grenade Launcher.

But he has legit kill set-ups and kill confirms. He also has Marth's landing trap from Brawl. Swordfighters Uair is a TRUE auto cancel. Do a SH Uair and when he lands he will land with 3 frames of land recovery even though he is still spinning. Then you can react to their option. Uair also does 15% on it's own and can kill around 100% as long as you hit with the first hitbox. He has a nice jab combo which can lead to mix-ups from throw or U-smash at kill percents.

Nair is nice as is bair. His U-throw is good for trap set-ups and his d-throw can leads to true combos and yes kill combos with Uair.

He is greatly underestimated. People want him to be Brawl Marth. He isn't. Though I feel he sets up situations better then Marth.

Also his down B options lets him counter pick any character in the game.

HA!
I knew If i talked enough bad thing about Swordfighter, someone would drop some tech. Did not know about those generous auto cancel frames
Intresting thing to note about SH U-air is that it auto cancels while the sourspot is still out. U-air btw does 15-16% depending on size weight but most Swordfighters want to be Short(ish)/Thin
I'm still iffy about n-air though but B-air is delicious with those fast (frame 7) disjointed (even if they are galaxia tier in range) and kills early (for swordfighter anyways)
Damn that U-throw goes no where, More U-airs then.
Imma have to remind myself to post your findings to Swordfighter or maybe @Unknownkid can post it.

 

[Saturn_]

You know if anybody masters this bloody zelda tech she might just end up one of the most frustrating characters to fight in the game.

Honestly no disadvantage state at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo_ZkdDoWU8

Cosmo of Zelda speedruns fame is a Zelda main in Smash 4, my hope is that he will unlock her true potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDksauF4o_Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aYtGYWXXYY

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Cosmo of Zelda speedruns fame is a Zelda main in Smash 4, my hope is that he will unlock her true potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDksauF4o_Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aYtGYWXXYY

i have no words to explain that there last video.

 

[Nobie]

These Zelda videos remind me, you know what never gets mentioned (but maybe gets used anyway)? The fact that you can also change the distance of teleporting moves by not holding the control stick in a direction all the way. This way, things like Farore's Wind can hit at different distances even when teleporting into the air.

Re: Swordfighter, I know in my heart of hearts that Airborne Assault is a terrible move, but Swordfighter just never feels right to me without it. I think perhaps in general it's because of a lack of reliable/really really good kill moves, and having the potential to land a ridiculous somersault at close range from a good read just feels good. I think that move is less a recovery move though and more a move to get to the other side when cornered.

 

[Terotrous]

It's...just alot of false information.

I have been playing with him a bit more and more. His main issue is that his best moves share slots

This is so true. DownB is the best thing about Swordfighter, if only you could somehow get all of them at once.

He's still easily the worst Mii though and I suspect he really is bottom 5.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No he really isn't. I think....

he might be better than Marth, which isn't saying alot but it would make him a solid mid tier.

And yes SwordFighter has alot of really stupid, bad redundant moves.

Airborne Assault is just garbage. Sword flurry is shieldbreaker but worse and shieldbreaker is average. Power Thrust is Marths Dashing Assault on steroids though which is awesome. Sword Launcher is a slightly better quick draw.

I am really trying to find a movelist for him thats not so damn redundant, but it is really REALLY difficult.

 

[Terotrous]

No he really isn't. I think....

he might be better than Marth, which isn't saying alot but it would make him a solid mid tier.

Ehhh, I'm quite sceptical. Marth has better range and significantly better power. Swordfighter does have a bit more safety thanks to those autocancels, and the ability to have a reflector in some matchups is nice, but really the only way I can see it being true is if Marth is actually way worse than we thought.


In general though, I see Swordfighter as being more akin to Link than to Marth, since he also has a projectile and similar normals. Link with a counter is kinda scary, but unfortunately a lot of things about Swordfighter are downgraded compared to Link (he's not the better Link in the same way that Gunner is a better Samus).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mii Sword Fighter have a true kill confirm automatically makes him better than Marth honestly. Like, Marth is superior in all other ways, but kill confirms is what this game is. This game is basically the Street Fighter 3: Third Strike of the series. All about footsies to make people block, then call the shield and grab confirm for a kill.

This is a non-custom environment btw. With customs Marth is probably the second strongest swordsman after Ike.

 

[Terotrous]

Kill confirms is what this game is.

Gotta get em to kill percent first. I'm still a pretty big believer that neutral game is what makes a good character (hence my opinion that Swordfighter is very bad), but part of that may be that I play the kill confirm-lacking Yoshi.

 

[Antonykun]

Mii Sword Fighter have a true kill confirm automatically makes him better than Marth honestly. Like, Marth is superior in all other ways, but kill confirms is what this game is. This game is basically the Street Fighter 3: Third Strike of the series. All about footsies to make people block, then call the shield and grab confirm for a kill.

This is a non-custom environment btw. With customs Marth is probably the second strongest swordsman after Ike.

Main sharing some of those kill confirms? I Can't seem to land any kills until like 130%

 

[Luco]

I feel if a heavy had a good way to control neutral (such as a kill throw, or better walls via hitbox buffs or mobility buffs) they would be ludicrously good hehe.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gotta get em to kill percent first. I'm still a pretty big believer that neutral game is what makes a good character (hence my opinion that Swordfighter is very bad), but part of that may be that I play the kill confirm-lacking Yoshi.

Shuriken of light and Power Thrust for your neutral game woes.

For Sword Fighter d-throw to Uair will kill usually around 85% to 100%. Varies from character to character. You have maybe 2 frame window of error. Also jab1, jab 2 xx U-smash is a decent confirm but not guaranteed.