Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

Shield breaker would be good if marth actually had some pokes that did some shied damage.

so he would not halve to charge it at all for the break of course.

 

[Ffamran]

Dude! Pon's Ganondorf and using the back hit of Uair, using the uppercut of Dark Dive, and just... DUDE! And then he fights an unknown Falco with the jukes. Look at the pivots, reverse B's, and DUDE! Just watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWkQ6z06m9s.

 

[Teshie U]

If you ever get your shield popped by shieldbreaker then you need an intervention.

You obviously have a drinking problem and its effecting your ability to play smash.

****in unacceptable.



Marth is a poking based character that gets damage from neutral. He is a control character.

But...now he doesnt get damage from pokes. He has no hit confirms into anything unlike Brawl where he had hit confirms into Dancing Blade which was an easy 30% then led into aerial traps with his Uair and U-smash.

Also don't say stuff like Marth is good.

It irks me, because Sakurai clearly intentionally made him NOT good.

yeah double post mah dude

Thug life

Maybe a character that can kill at 50% shouldn't get 30% off of a single punish.

Although I did 0-death someone with uair-utilt-utilt -fsmash so maybe he is a little broken.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Dude! Pon's Ganondorf and using the back hit of Uair, using the uppercut of Dark Dive, and just... DUDE! And then he fights an unknown Falco with the jukes. Look at the pivots, reverse B's, and DUDE! Just watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWkQ6z06m9s.

ah the footstool combos. this really is becoming the new combo meta.

 

[Teshie U]

Shield breaker would be good if marth actually had some pokes that did some shied damage.

so he would not halve to charge it at all for the break of course.

Doesn't uncharged shield breaker do almost 100% of the damage needed? Meaning shielding any one thing beforehand puts you at risk? Someone hit me with some moveset data here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Maybe a character that can kill at 50% shouldn't get 30% off of a single punish.

Although I did 0-death someone with uair-utilt-utilt -fsmash so maybe he is a little broken.

Stop fighting people that suck and don't know how to hold the analog stick in a single direction to avoid non combos.

 

[Ffamran]

ah the footstool combos. this really is becoming the new combo meta.

Well, there was this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/footstool-into-jab-lock-combos-will-shape-the-meta.391997/.

The weird, D-throw to Ftilt(x3) the Falco did at 10:00 was curious. I think it's like the triple laser lock he can do, but this might be less situational, especially if it works on heavies or something. Still, this dude made Falco look so fluid.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Doesn't uncharged shield breaker do almost 100% of the damage needed? Meaning shielding any one thing beforehand puts you at risk? Someone hit me with some moveset data here.

alas no thats not the case. it does lot yeah but marths shield pressure aint somthing to write home about. d tilt shield breaker wont break shield.

 

[HeroMystic]

Dude! Pon's Ganondorf and using the back hit of Uair, using the uppercut of Dark Dive, and just... DUDE! And then he fights an unknown Falco with the jukes. Look at the pivots, reverse B's, and DUDE! Just watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWkQ6z06m9s.

Definitely some of the best Falco play I've seen so far. I don't think anyone in the US does what this guy has been doing.

Damn, that D-throw to F-tilt lock was hype.

 

[Forty4]

If footstools are really the future, I guess it's time to practice them.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

from the looks of it dair spikes might just be the most dangerous hit confim onstage considering footstool combos.

 

[Teshie U]

Stop fighting people that suck and don't know how to hold the analog stick in a single direction to avoid non combos.

At 0% people go almost nowhere from Uair and the 2nd Utilt and Fsmash were easy reads.

I don't ever use shield breaker as shieldbreaking with Marth only ends in one thing (tipper fsmash) and i can do that on my own.

0-death doesnt mean it was a combo, just a string where he wasnt successful fending me off.

 

[Ffamran]

If footstools are really the future, I guess it's time to practice them.

Welcome to the world that is Super Smash Bros. 4 featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series.

Sort of since jump canceling in DMC allows you to continue strings of moves while footstools, I guess, set up moves and or meteor in a funny way. Boink!

Definitely some of the best Falco play I've seen so far. I don't think anyone in the US does what this guy has been doing.

Damn, that D-throw to F-tilt lock was hype.

I remember the videos of Japanese Falco (and Fox) doing a lot of things, the US and maybe, EU, AU, and everywhere else don't. I don't know why. It's one of the reasons that when I posted the Japanese Fox gameplay from 590kazuu - I think that's the uploader's tag -, I was surprised to see perfect pivots used a lot and at that time, it was only 6wX I was aware of who used perfect pivots with Sonic and I don't think it was a lot at that time.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

At 0% people go almost nowhere from Uair and the 2nd Utilt and Fsmash were easy reads.

I don't ever use shield breaker as shieldbreaking with Marth only ends in one thing (tipper fsmash) and i can do that on my own.

0-death doesnt mean it was a combo, just a string where he wasnt successful fending me off.

dunno unless you fighting d3 i never heard of double u tilt being a legit combo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

At 0% people go almost nowhere from Uair and the 2nd Utilt and Fsmash were easy reads.

I don't ever use shield breaker as shieldbreaking with Marth only ends in one thing (tipper fsmash) and i can do that on my own.

0-death doesnt mean it was a combo, just a string where he wasnt successful fending me off.

0-death is a term from Melee days meaning from the first hit its inescapable and a true combo.

There is no reading involved. And after an utilt at low percents people can just mash buttons on you and hit you if you try to utilt again.

Again, stop playing bad people.

 

[Quickhero]

I feel ridiculously motivated to play Falco....Japan really will always be ahead of us. :3 Time to get demolished..

I kind of wonder though, in a custom environment, what would be the best set to make plays like these much more do-able? Like Falco would've been able to escape that one time had he used Fast Fire Bird and I could've seen some Void Reflector being really cool. I would love to hear input on what custom moves would be best for his kind of playstyle, though. :D

Also, I don't care what any of you say, that u-smash to lazer was the hypest thing around. It might've not been that useful, but god damn it looks really cool.

 

[|RK|]

At 0% people go almost nowhere from Uair and the 2nd Utilt and Fsmash were easy reads.

I don't ever use shield breaker as shieldbreaking with Marth only ends in one thing (tipper fsmash) and i can do that on my own.

0-death doesnt mean it was a combo, just a string where he wasnt successful fending me off.

Shieldbreaker is such a fun move.

 

[Teshie U]

I'm not a Melee player. I've always used 0-death to describe a string of moves, pressuring your opponent from start to finish. Not a combo. 0-death doesnt mean 0-death combo.

In any case, arguing terminology doesn't change what I said. I landed 4 moves and my opponent was dead. He didn't have alot of places to go at that percent and any option could be read and punished with Fsmash anyway.

Bottom line is that the move is powerful and very usable.

 

[|RK|]

M E W T W O B O Y Z


raise ur

also if it is a patch please make diddy's uair more honest and give it some startup, like maybe 5 more frames?

Don't forget that we also get Tournament modes and another legal stage!

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm not a Melee player. I've always used 0-death to describe a string of moves, pressuring your opponent from start to finish. Not a combo. 0-death doesnt mean 0-death combo.

In any case, arguing terminology doesn't change what I said. I landed 4 moves and my opponent was dead. He didn't have alot of places to go at that percent and any option could be read and punished with Fsmash anyway.

Bottom line is that the move is powerful and very usable.

......

I'm done for tonight guys.

Yall have a good evening.

 

[HeavyLobster]

If you ever get your shield popped by shieldbreaker then you need an intervention.

You obviously have a drinking problem and its effecting your ability to play smash.

****in unacceptable.

Help me. For the life of me I have no idea how to get myself to not hold shield whenever Marth pulls out shield breaker. I'm mentally screaming at myself not to do it but my body does it anyway. I usually do ok against decent Marths who don't use it much but I'm a sucker for random YOLO Shieldbreakers.

 

[Ffamran]

I feel ridiculously motivated to play Falco....Japan really will always be ahead of us. :3 Time to get demolished..

I kind of wonder though, in a custom environment, what would be the best set to make plays like these much more do-able? Like Falco would've been able to escape that one time had he used Fast Fire Bird and I could've seen some Void Reflector being really cool. I would love to hear input on what custom moves would be best for his kind of playstyle, though. :D

Also, I don't care what any of you say, that u-smash to lazer was the hypest thing around. It might've not been that useful, but god damn it looks really cool.

It's Falco, being a cocky dude trying to style his fights is his thing.

In terms of customs, I don't know since I haven't used customs a lot and I never used them against people before. For slower characters like Ganondorf, I can totally see default Blaster continued being used for hit stun and interrupts, Burst Blaster to rack up damage, and Explosive Blaster to edgeguard, but I don't know how it should be used. For faster characters like Fox, Sonic, and Sheik, Burst Blaster's not worth it since he might not be able to get away with it like Fox even though the end lag is slower. Default's still good and then there's edgeguarding Explosive Blaster. @ Shaya , how do I use Explosive Blaster?

Well, I could see say, Captain Falcon being edgeguarded with Explosive Blaster because of how exploitable his recovery is, but at the same time, it might be better for Falco to just Bair stage spike him. On the other hand, especially with Rosalina's custom Up B that's really fast, Explosive Blaster might make it scarier for her to recover since if it's timed right which is difficult, it could screw over Rosalina from recovering. That's the theory of Explosive Blaster, Burst Grenade, and I guess, ZSS's Electromagnetic Net.

Falco Charge is just... I don't know any reason why you'd use it. Seriously, Side Smash is better for a horizontal punish or a RAR Bair, it makes Falco's recovery even worse since it travels less, and the 12%, strong hitbox can miss at pointblank since Falco will move forward and not hit with it, so you'll get a measly 4% out of a slow move. Falco Phase would make it safer for Falco to recover, but it would stop him from being able to hit Ganondorf like that. So, I guess it's more dependent on play style and matchup. Against say, Duck Hunt, Falco Phase would be better since he can Phase through Duck Hunt's projectiles.

Fire Bird is Fire Bird. It's nothing special. Fast Fire Bird would give Falco another burst movement option and on the ground, he slides forward so it covers the same distance as Fire Bird, but in the air, it doesn't travel the same distance. I'd say Fast Fire Bird would be the safer pick since it would make it harder for Ganondorf to just drop off the ledge and meteor Falco. With how that Falco was using Phantasm, he could use Fast Fire Bird to mix up his game. Still, Distant Fire Bird is just an "upgrade" to Fire Bird, but it's slower. Not much of an issue if Falco goes really deep and people don't want to chance losing a stock to knock Falco into the blast zone.

Void Reflector with (perfect) pivoting would probably be a decent combo set up and it can kill sort of like a mid-ranged Uair. Default's default; it's a frame 5 move that when hits, is a good spacing tool. Accele-Reflector might need to be tested more since I wondered about Luma Warp having Luma being a projectile and could you imagine an reflector speeding up a projectile and sending Luma back like that? A Luma Warp Utilt would mean one sucker punch to Rosalina. Unfortunately, that's not the case since Luma actually warps and isn't a projectile like default Luma Shot and the other custom. Accele-Reflector's low knockback, being a frame 7 move, and not reflecting on the way back sort of makes it feel not worth it.

Eh, theories and all.

Shieldbreaker is such a fun move.

So is Ganondorf's Volcano Kick and Warlock Punch, Captain Falcon's Knee, Falcon Punch, Falcon Kick, Nipple spike, Raptor Boost, and... pretty much anything Captain Falcon related, Luigi's Super Jump Punch is awesome when landed, hitting the wall with Luigi Missile is just wacky, Mega Man just makes me feel like playing Mega Man even though I never played any of his older games - I remember playing one of the Mega Man.EXE games -, and landing a Dair or Falco Phantasm meteor with Falco is just awesome while his Bair is just BOOM! You're dead, son!

 

[Smog Frog]

Help me. For the life of me I have no idea how to get myself to not hold shield whenever Marth pulls out shield breaker. I'm mentally screaming at myself not to do it but my body does it anyway. I usually do ok against decent Marths who don't use it much but I'm a sucker for random YOLO Shieldbreakers.

make a habit of spotdodging

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Help me. For the life of me I have no idea how to get myself to not hold shield whenever Marth pulls out shield breaker. I'm mentally screaming at myself not to do it but my body does it anyway. I usually do ok against decent Marths who don't use it much but I'm a sucker for random YOLO Shieldbreakers.

You need jesus.

 

[HeavyLobster]

make a habit of spotdodging

Yeah. It's an old Brawl habit I have of relying on shield a lot because you usually don't get punished too hard for it. Still haven't quite got it out of my system.

 

[Teshie U]

......

I'm done for tonight guys.

Yall have a good evening.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Zero-to-death_combo

"Zero-death is also used to refer to any general sequence where a player brought an opponent from 0% to a KO without interruption (such as beginning the opponent's stock with a combo that sends them into the air, then reading their landing option and punishing with an attack that sends them offstage, then reading their recovery option and punishing with an attack that KOs them)."

Sorry if my terminology offends you, but it does appear I had a good reason to use the term. Though to be honest, nitpicking something irrelevant when we were discussing Fsmash is kind of silly. You are looking no better than people trying to win an argument by finding faults with spelling or punctuation.

 

[Shaya]

Grrr.
People who play on wifi are usually cancer; I don't enjoy watching abuse of 'Sm4sh 20frame reaction edition'. First time people have seen 's simple-ish 60% combos and kill confirms? ~_~ Oh and alright pivot and shff usage.

Explosive Blaster + Shine. Think about their synergy (range, active frames).

's Up-B is a mystery of the universe. I will spike it, 100% of the time... eventually. Forgoing it for less will prob get you gimped.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Grrr.
People who play on wifi are usually cancer; I don't enjoy watching abuse of 'Sm4sh 20frame reaction edition'. First time people have seen 's simple-ish 60% combos and kill confirms? ~_~ Oh and alright pivot and shff usage.

Explosive Blaster + Shine. Think about their synergy (range, active frames).

's Up-B is a mystery of the universe. I will spike it, 100% of the time... eventually. Forgoing it for less will prob get you gimped.

was it wifi? i cant read whatever language was on the vid.

is it not commonthat japanese players go to final destination more over than anything?

 

[Shaya]

The moment you see use warlock kick you know it's wifi. I also refer to every vid of linked here ever.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The moment you see use warlock kick you know it's wifi. I also refer to every vid of linked here ever.

It's really not a bad move given it covers good options + decent damage, though I agree it gets overused on wifi. Similarly WDK is massively overrated due to being slower startup than default.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The moment you see use warlock kick you know it's wifi. I also refer to every vid of linked here ever.

really? i know it has risks but i dont think its that impossible to land. but perhaps u know somthing i dont. (witch is likly)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly I'd complain more about Flame Choke being slightly OP on wifi as opposed to Wizkick given Wizkick is super unsafe on block. I won't deny wifi lag makes it harder to react to Ganon's offense, but that doesn't make Wizkick or Flame Choke bad moves by any means.

 

[Shaya]

is a punisher, not a librarian. Assume some "things" I won't spend a sentence clarifying (like here), broken keys enthuses you.

 

[Ffamran]

Grrr.
People who play on wifi are usually cancer; I don't enjoy watching abuse of 'Sm4sh 20frame reaction edition'. First time people have seen 's simple-ish 60% combos and kill confirms? ~_~ Oh and alright pivot and shff usage.

Explosive Blaster + Shine. Think about their synergy (range, active frames).

's Up-B is a mystery of the universe. I will spike it, 100% of the time... eventually. Forgoing it for less will prob get you gimped.

Really? Most Ganondorfs I meet online are chill dudes and dittoing them is hilarious since it's like ping-pong, but with a 7' 6", red dreadlocked man with a glowing scar. Ganondorfs are probably my favorite fights and the least immature, annoying, and tryhard. Maybe Marth and Lucina too along with sometimes Fox, maybe Mega Man, and Falco which is odd since Falco is supposed to be cocky. Everyone else is an ***. Also, Pon's been mentioned here before with his Ganondorf against a Pikachu a while back.

Anyway, the first match had Falco get Ganondorf to 89% in under a minute? That's insane! The only issue is well, I don't really know how that would translate to offline/local gameplay along with DI and character stats since Ganondorf's not exactly a graceful man in the air. Also, as people noted before, not a lot of Falcos, especially the ones outside of Japan and outside of known names have done what that Falco did. I haven't seen a Falco pivot, perfect pivot, or short hop fast fall and if I did, it's probably so rare. I don't think Keitaro, GimR, Larry Lurr, Kato, pawclaw, Cyro, or any other known Falco player does any of those that the random Falco did. I know Zionaze said Fair towards the stage was a good for stage spikes, but I never seen it before.

was it wifi? i cant read whatever language was on the vid.

is it not commonthat japanese players go to final destination more over than anything?

Whoops, forgot to mention that it was For Glory. Seriously, though, why can't we meet players like that online? It's usually scrubby players... Anyway, I digress.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It's not as if Ganon's anywhere near the best character on wifi even with the buffs latency gives him. He does struggle more against projectiles than he does locally, and it's not as if either Wizkick or Flame Choke are riskless moves that mean free wins against good players. Diddy, Luigi, and ZSS are far more abusive in this respect, as they get great reward from grabs that are tough to avoid in latency while being able to sit back and throw out projectiles that let them get grabs for free. Ganon at least has to take risks and mix things up to actually win. The other characters I listed are frustrating and stupid even in their most rudimentary flowchart forms.
Edit: Oh, and if you thought Ganon's abuse of Wifi latency was bad, try reacting to any that is less than completely predictable online.

 

[Pazx]

Don't forget that we also get Tournament modes and another legal stage!

If you're referring to Miiverse I'd lower your expectations, it'll likely be so similar to BF that we can't consider it a unique stage.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Ffamran Wait....you have had good experiences with Lucina mains? Every damn Lucina main I play against on For Glory is ridiculously try hard and acts ridiculously like playing a damn game is as serious and important as the rest of your life...a lot of them don't follow up with a taunt even if you start with a taunt (It's Marth vs Lucina, that's pretty close to a ditto) and do stuff like taunt if they ever break your shield and taunt when you die even if you SD... I guess that's a lot of FG players but damn I wanna know what Lucina mains you're facing against in FG.

That being said, Captain Falcon mains are hella cool to play against but then again Captain Falcon and Marth players have a lot of respect for each other so maybe it's just me.

To end on something not FG related, I've been testing a lot of Shulk (he used to be my tertiary before I realized I ain't got time for Shulk) and I was just wondering if there is ANY reason to use Back Slash Charge over normal...it just looks like a version of Back Slash that covers more distance AND has super armor. Like, I see no reason to use normal Back Slash.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

If you're referring to Miiverse I'd lower your expectations, it'll likely be so similar to BF that we can't consider it a unique stage.

perhaps but it will have a different stage bottom so it might be in consideration a bit.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran Wait....you have had good experiences with Lucina mains? Every damn Lucina main I play against on For Glory is ridiculously try hard and acts ridiculously like playing a damn game is as serious and important as the rest of your life...a lot of them don't follow up with a taunt even if you start with a taunt (It's Marth vs Lucina, that's pretty close to a ditto) and do stuff like taunt if they ever break your shield and taunt when you die even if you SD... I guess that's a lot of FG players but damn I wanna know what Lucina mains you're facing against in FG.

That being said, Captain Falcon mains are hella cool to play against but then again Captain Falcon and Marth players have a lot of respect for each other so maybe it's just me.

To end on something not FG related, I've been testing a lot of Shulk (he used to be my tertiary before I realized I ain't got time for Shulk) and I was just wondering if there is ANY reason to use Back Slash Charge over normal...it just looks like a version of Back Slash that covers more distance AND has super armor. Like, I see no reason to use normal Back Slash.

You just reminded me of something. Recently, and while this is on the 3DS - I only have a 3DS -, the Lucinas I fought do a lot of foxtrots. I don't know much about foxtrots and I don't remember the video well, but how much do Marth and Lucina get out of foxtrotting and perfect pivoting? I remember a match where Lucina moved only through foxtrots. It was both weird and curious.

For a digression, the Lucinas I meet come in two flavors good and stupid. We're talking about good Lucis who might taunt from time to time like after a stock and then you have Lucis who spam Dancing Blade and/or Counter. I don't remember meeting a tryhard Lucina, but I did troll one when I messed around one day by purposely playing badly and doing foxtrots with some attacks out of it for ***** and giggles and "research". I think I won the match as... I think it was Captain Falcon. The player left, probably ****** off. I didn't even mean to win or KO them at all. Oh well. I do have a replay where I messed around as the Capt. with foxtrots and it was the 3rd or 4th match with the guy, so he was probably laughing or having fun watching a dude foxtrot around like an idiot. It probably helped that the first match was me crawling around as Greninja - the crawl sound is hilarious.

Which also reminds me, apparently, Greninja's Dtilt can safely destroy Lloid Rockets.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Late, but why is reddit full of scrubs.

Yoshi's problems lie in the fact he has no reliable kill setups compared to most top tiers, and his approach options are booty butt bad.
If we had an actual grab or didn't lose our Pivot grab to wall people out if they attempt approaching, he'd be in a better spot.
Sadly he doesn't, it also doesn't help his most damaging grab is 7% and his most reliable thing he can get off a throw is dthrow to possible Uair if the player is bad and doesn't attempt jumping.

Of course since his throws do 0% it also doesn't put anyone in many disadvantageous situations even if they're past 100%.
The worst thing that can happen to somebody is if they allow Yoshi to do his new gimmick of just short hop egg tossing without getting punished and get free hits on them after the egg hits. (fair Uair etc.)

When his only way of approaching is praying an egg lands so he can finally get hits in, it's not really good especially against the likes of fast characters in top tier like diddy sheik pika (QA) sonic ZSS C.falcon fox etc. Only one he might have an even MU maybe is Luigi since he slides from one part of the stage to the other just from any characters jab combo.

Also Dabuz put Yoshi as even after APEX from his 60:40 back in like mid December I think. So Yoshi's questionable Match-ups around the supposed top tier area so far (cause honestly who plays Yoshi?) is Rosalina Luigi Mario Ness.