Character Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Lol, A2Z is out here acting like an anime villain.

"But... my calculations were flawless!"

 

[Thinkaman]

Let's not fall for labeling Mario a neutral or jack-of-all-trades character; he's decidedly not. He's a close range combo machine with an approach projectile and unusually potent KO options, saddled with a very reliable but poor range recovery.

Mario is a pretty specialized character in practice, and not as generic or "average" as people always are inclined to assume.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Greninja is bad no one is willing to admit it.

 

[Quickhero]

Greninja is bad no one is willing to admit it.

Except the evidence shown in these discussions are clearly showing that Greninja isn't that bad and is actually still a solid character. Sure he's not top tier, but does that by default make him bad?

He is anything but bad.

 

[HeroMystic]

Let's not fall for labeling Mario a neutral or jack-of-all-trades character; he's decidedly not. He's a close range combo machine with an approach projectile and unusually potent KO options, saddled with a very reliable but poor range recovery.

Mario is a pretty specialized character in practice, and not as generic or "average" as people always are inclined to assume.

I think the confusion comes into play when versatility is often mixed up with average. On paper, Mario is average. Average fall speed, weight, run speed and walk speed. No scary move (except Cape) and relies a lot on fundamentals. In practice its a lot different. Those average stats combine into him being a character that can chase down the cast, stay in their face, punish virtually anything given he is close enough, and can chain combos with potent ko power. The only non-average stat he doesn't have is his attack speed.

Mario is versatile though. Unlike someone say, Falcon, who has no ability to camp at all, Mario is capable of playing defense through his specials, and U-Smash. We can't forget about his edgeguarding either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Some recent footage of Anti's WFT for consideration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpPq9rdmq8 vs Trela
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW4UMbwdXms&t=12m9s vs DeLux

Anti is really good. I was surprised by some of the times he just outright didn't punish things that happened right next to him, but I do think he does demonstrate good use of WFT's moves.

Honestly, I don't doubt that you know a lot about the character, but I want you to realize the very thing that's holding metagames back. It's not something that can clearly be seen in the quoted post.

It's because you keep dwelling on how "terrible" your character is percieved as.

You can have all the knowledge and data in the world about the character, but if you don't have appropriate application or different ways of putting it to use, then relying sorely on data means absolutely NOTHING. This is not to say that you haven't ever done it, but that must be more of your mode of focus.

It doesn't matter how "bad" you think Mario is, but it also doesn't matter how "good" anyone else's character is either, your character (much like all the others) is a unique design and is built the way he is for a reason. That is why you never base an opinion of a character only on frame data alone because the comparison of that data builds a perception. Mario has doesn't have a huge slew of strengths; No, he doesn't have range the size of a football field. No, his attacks don't grow into a Spirit Bomb that KO's anyone at 13%. No, his attacks aren't quick enough to cut lighting bolts before they even touch the ground. He does however, have a strength. It's his strength of Versatility. All of his stats are relatively average, but this does not make him a "weaker" character (In fact, that is only the case when you compare it to another character in a negative connotation), this just means that all of Mario's stats, attributes and capabilities just follow the same margin of success. I will stress again however, that it's how you apply that data. You have to take Mario for how he is, and not how you'd like him to be. That goes for any other character as well.

Ally is a great player, but also doesn't know everything about the character or how to go about utilizing it. You can push the boundaries of Mario by believing in the design of your character instead of doubting it. But more importantly; Believing in yourself as a player. Yes, that's right. Saying your character is buttcheeks is in fact, the same as "johning" for the reason that you lose being because of your character. No matter how you put it, it's always going to come down to player skill regardless of character.

If you can focus more on your character's strengths (and learn more of what they are), you give your metagame freedom to grow. Mario is technically, the most balanced character in the game after all.

You make a lot of claims that aren't actually supported by much of anything...You throw out the word "versatility" as if it means anything by itself. What's your point again? Realistically, Mario's gameplan is focused on very specific things. He has a strong close range presence due to his good startup times, all of his throws generally do good damage and leave him in very favorable positions, and he can annoy people in neutral with his fireball which he can use to harass from various angles. But in most other areas, he's below average. He can't kill as early as most characters, most of his attacks and combos don't do great damage, and his survivability is poor due to his lack of options in the negative state.

I don't think you realize how much I actually defend the character and how I've already explained before most people what his better matchups are. Mario from Brawl was already a solid design, and they mostly ported him over after huge damage nerfs and taking away Cape Stalling and Jab canceling from him.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is bad no one is willing to admit it.

I think it's more of a case of "Greninja is good and you're just in denial" considering you're the only one who seems to think of him as bottom of the bottom.

 

[HeoandReo]

I think the confusion comes into play when versatility is often mixed up with average. On paper, Mario is average. Average fall speed, weight, run speed and walk speed. No scary move (except Cape) and relies a lot on fundamentals. In practice its a lot different. Those average stats combine into him being a character that can chase down the cast, stay in their face, punish virtually anything given he is close enough, and can chain combos with potent ko power. The only non-average stat he doesn't have is his attack speed.

Isn't Mario also tied for like 4th best air speed in the game? I think that's another important facet of his game that's decidedly above average, and one of the reasons why he can keep up with a lot of fast characters.

Seriously, he's almost like Brawl Wario in that regard.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think it's more of a case of "Greninja is good and you're just in denial" considering you're the only one who seems to think of him as bottom of the bottom.

Your right greninja good because everyone says so. Phew am I too late to jump on that bandwagon? You just opened my eyes....

 

[HeroMystic]

Isn't Mario also tied for like 4th best air speed in the game? I think that's another important facet of his game that's decidedly above average, and one of the reasons why he can keep up with a lot of fast characters.

Seriously, he's almost like Brawl Wario in that regard.

According to the thread, he's tied for 7th place, which is still very above average (in fact I would say that is stellar). What made Brawl Wario's mobility amazing though was his deceleration, which Mario doesn't have outside of b-reversed fireballs.

 

[dragontamer]

I think the confusion comes into play when versatility is often mixed up with average. On paper, Mario is average. Average fall speed, weight, run speed and walk speed. No scary move (except Cape) and relies a lot on fundamentals. In practice its a lot different. Those average stats combine into him being a character that can chase down the cast, stay in their face, punish virtually anything given he is close enough, and can chain combos with potent ko power. The only non-average stat he doesn't have is his attack speed.

Mario is versatile though. Unlike someone say, Falcon, who has no ability to camp at all, Mario is capable of playing defense through his specials, and U-Smash. We can't forget about his edgeguarding either.

No other character has an 8-frame USmash and a 5-frame DSmash. Mario's got extremely quick aerials as well. The landing-lag topic seems out of date, but as of 1.0.4, his DAir is very safe shield pressure, and his Nair seems like it has no landing lag at all.

Mario is a brawler, extremely fast attack speeds with moderate speed. With these attacks however, Mario has extremely short range (only WFT and Luigi seem to have less range).

There is nothing average about Mario at all. 2-frame Jab, 3-frame Nair, 4-frame Uair, 5-frame ftilt, 5-frame DSmash, invincibility frames on the 9-frame USmash. What the hell is "average" about that? Mario's average frame data is faster than Little Mac... and two of Mario's Smashes are much faster than Little Mac's. (9-frame USmash is faster than 10-frame Little Mac USmash. 5-frame DSmash is faster than 10-frame Little Mac DSmash)

 

[HeroMystic]

I've already stated his attack speed is not average.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I wish we had acceleration/deceleration data as well. I'm curious to see where Mario stands in those categories.

 

[FullMoon]

Your right greninja good because everyone says so. Phew am I too late to jump on that bandwagon? You just opened my eyes....

When the majority agrees, they must be onto something. Sure, the opinions might change as the meta develops but Greninja is never going to be anywhere as bad as you make him look like. Greninja is great at juggling people in the air, has some good disjointed hitboxes, a recovery among the best, very good gimping abilities and excellent mobility. His shortcomings are a lack of a reliable way to approach, a terrible standing grab, having to commit a lot to his attacks and no good options out of shield.

Despite his shortcomings, Greninja is still very much able to stand up to the top tiers, his moves have decent kill power to them, his counter can kill ridiculously early when triggered and all his moves are effective in some way, even d-air has it's uses despite how much end-lag it has.

I may be a bit optimistic about it, but I believe as the metagame develops Greninja is only going to get better. The Japanese are finding more and more things to add to his inventory every day and things are only looking better for the frog so far. He has a high skill ceiling to get over, so not many people have played with him yet, similar to what happens to Peach, but he certainly has a lot of potential.

There's just no way Greninja is anywhere near bottom. He's Top 25 at very worst.

 

[dragontamer]

I've already stated his attack speed is not average.

I think I misread your post. I think we all realize what a speedster Mario is...

 

[Thinkaman]

Mario's average frame data is faster than Little Mac.

I agree with your post in general, but would say this is a slightly incorrect statement.

Mario is only going to be faster (and trivially so) if you take a arithmetic average of everything. If you compare only fastest options, account for range in any way, or compare geometric means, Little Mac is going to be faster.

Also, imo Mario's single biggest speedster attribute is his frame-3 hit/invincible up-b.

 

[Smog Frog]

so if you guys caught vgbc's stream, a luigi won a national

discuss

 

[Nobie]

It's also important to note that what makes Little Mac's smashes scary isn't just the frame data, but the fact that those super fast smashes also have armor and have enough shield push-back to make retaliating more of a chore.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

so if you guys caught vgbc's stream, a luigi won a national

discuss

Still overrated/overhyped, still people just not abusing his weaknesses well enough.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

When the majority agrees, they must be onto something. Sure, the opinions might change as the meta develops but Greninja is never going to be anywhere as bad as you make him look like. Greninja is great at juggling people in the air, has some good disjointed hitboxes, a recovery among the best, very good gimping abilities and excellent mobility. His shortcomings are a lack of a reliable way to approach, a terrible standing grab, having to commit a lot to his attacks and no good options out of shield.

Despite his shortcomings, Greninja is still very much able to stand up to the top tiers, his moves have decent kill power to them, his counter can kill ridiculously early when triggered and all his moves are effective in some way, even d-air has it's uses despite how much end-lag it has.

I may be a bit optimistic about it, but I believe as the metagame develops Greninja is only going to get better. The Japanese are finding more and more things to add to his inventory every day and things are only looking better for the frog so far. He has a high skill ceiling to get over, so not many people have played with him yet, similar to what happens to Peach, but he certainly has a lot of potential.

There's just no way Greninja is anywhere near bottom. He's Top 25 at very worst.

Greninja is able to stand up vs the top tiers? Are you suggesting he goes even with them? I have an extremely hard time believing this. The Japanese combos are interesting. They change my opinion of the character a bit. However something like that isn't enough for me personally.

 

[Ffamran]

This little weird thought popped into my head, but what if an early "tier" list consisted of only three "tiers". The reason tier is in quotations is that it would be more like sections instead of actual tiers. So, the first section would be like "very viable", followed by "generally viable", and finally " viable".

So, "very viable" would include fighters like Sheik, Pikachu, Fox, Diddy Kong, Rosalina & Luma, Sonic, etc. These are the fighters people see a lot and have shown considerable results. As an early "tier list" it does not mean they're overwhelming the best, but as of now, they are very good.

"Generally viable" would include characters like Ike, Shulk, Luigi, Ness, ROB, Peach, and Mario. These fighters showed they can handle various situations, have results, and are fine, but the current meta, focus on the "very viable" cast, etc. leaves them "unfinished" as they still have potential.

Finally, the "viable" section would include characters like Wii Fit Trainer, Falco, Olimar, Meta Knight, and Zelda. These are the untapped and relatively unknown fighters in the game. The current meta might not be kind to them, the focus isn't on them, and they little results. These fighters have a ton of potential which is being ignored in favor of the tried and true like Captain Falcon or the successful results of say, Luigi.

As it is early, MUs are still fuzzy, especially since it's being focused on a select few. For example, it was believed that Rosalina & Luma were invincible until Ryuga showed that Ike could handle them fine. So, a "very viable" can lose or win against a "generally viable" or a "viable" fighter.

Who knows, maybe this game will have a more erratic tier list where let's say the best overall character does struggle with certain match ups across each tier. Personally, I don't think SSB4 will have a select few dominating the game, but who knows, maybe something random will happen and it turns out Peach can gimp everyone.

Just a little thought that popped up to make early "organization" easier.

 

[|RK|]

so if you guys caught vgbc's stream, a luigi won a national

discuss

What did the rest of the tournament look like?

 

[Teshie U]

IIRC it was
Luigi
Diddy
Diddy
Diddy

for top 4

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is able to stand up vs the top tiers? Are you suggesting he goes even with them? I have an extremely hard time believing this. The Japanese combos are interesting. They change my opinion of the character a bit. However something like that isn't enough for me personally.

I'm pretty sure Greninja has a winning MU against Diddy and the only MUs I can see him being in a disadvantage are Sheik, Sonic and possibly Yoshi but even then it's probably something like 60-40 and not a huge disadvantage. Ness is a bit weird because I've heard people say he's a bad MU for him but I never had too much trouble dealing with him.

You'd have to ask someone else to elaborate on the MUs unfortunately, because that's not my forte.

 

[Yonder]

IIRC it was
Luigi
Diddy
Diddy
Diddy

for top 4

Yep, in the Luigi boards it was the B.E.A.S.T 5 tourney. Miller won against some good Diddy's like Leffen. And apparently Miller, Boss, Mr. Con Con, and False are heading to Apex this year too.

 

[Thinkaman]

Deep Breathing makes WFT f-smash one of the game's strongest moves, at a modest f16.

The only stronger normal ground moves in the entire game are:
Dedede f-smash (f42)
Ganon u-tilt (f81)
Ganon f-smash (f21)
Ike f-smash (f31)
Bowser f-smash (f22)
Charizard f-smash (f22)
Marth tipper f-smash (around f13?)
Villager f-smash (f26)
Ness f-smash (f21)

That's it. Notice all the strong stuff not on that list, like DK or Falcon smashes? Yeah, WFT f-smash is stronger.

Yeah, the range sucks, but don't think of it like a Luigi f-smash. Think of it like a Villager f-smash, or a Bowser f-smash you have 6 frames of optional movement before.

Also, you can hit in "front" of you when doing it out of a pivot.



Deep Breathing also makes u-smash the second strongest u-smash in the entire game, second only to Ganon. Sure, it has dismal range, but it's also frame 14 and full-body invincible on release.

Finally, Deep Breathing makes her frame 6 f-tilt one of the strongest tilts in the game--stronger than Sheik f-smash! All comparable KO-potential f-tilts except Little Mac (Link/Zelda/Ganon/Ike) are significantly slower.

 

[Ffamran]

Deep Breathing is also like a mind game since you could use it to bait people.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm pretty sure Greninja has a winning MU against Diddy and the only MUs I can see him being in a disadvantage are Sheik, Sonic and possibly Yoshi but even then it's probably something like 60-40 and not a huge disadvantage. Ness is a bit weird because I've heard people say he's a bad MU for him but I never had too much trouble dealing with him.

You'd have to ask someone else to elaborate on the MUs unfortunately, because that's not my forte.

Ah I see. Oh welll guess we need to let the game develop a bit more.

I asked the same thing of Shulk and still haven't gotten a response. So I don't really blame on the flip side when shaya posted his threat list I didn't see shulk as a threat to anyone in the top ten same with greninja. I'm just saying.

 

[HeroMystic]

Deep Breathing F-tilt is ridiculously strong as a punisher. I can say that from experience.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Literally every option you listed is incredibly unsafe or relies on Samus to be in the air where she's slow and has no fall speed, meaning she either does a rising aerial and gets punished hard if it doesnt work, or she has to prepare for the aerial WAY before she gets to use it to make it safe. Theyre not BAD options so much as theyre situational, and when EVERY option requires either specific use, set ups, reads, etc, then your options generally arent reliable enough to regularly help you in tight situations.

dair is here most safe ariel considering its auto cancel frames are redicoulously easy to pull off. reatreating dairs are almost unpunishable because she IS floaty.
but yeah dash atack is un safe( well not super unsafe still a reasonable risk) but its not to hard to set up though.

 

[IsmaR]

But then Samus wouldn't be able to Bomb Jump
and stall in the air.

Bomb jumping/stalling got hella nerfed from Brawl either way. Samus relies on her tether/floatiness to recover.

 

[Nobie]

Brolylegs's recent performance at KIT makes me wonder something about the whole Marth vs Lucina thing.

For those unfamiliar with Brolylegs, he's a fighting game player who is disabled, and as such plays games basically using his mouth. He's known for using Chun-li in SF4, and has experience in Melee too. He recently got top 16 using Lucina.

When we talk about Marth and Lucina, we generally aay that Marth is better because if you can just aim tippers comsistently enough, then Marth's killing power is just overwhelmingly better. However, what if that simply wasn't possible? What if you, for whatever reason, can just not rely on tippers? Is Lucina then a clearly better option than Marth? Or indeed, is she worth picking over other characters, given her overall properties?

This also brings up the question of the extent to which games should require physical dexterity, but that's a different topic for a different thread.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Anti is really good. I was surprised by some of the times he just outright didn't punish things that happened right next to him, but I do think he does demonstrate good use of WFT's moves.

You make a lot of claims that aren't actually supported by much of anything...You throw out the word "versatility" as if it means anything by itself. What's your point again? Realistically, Mario's gameplan is focused on very specific things. He has a strong close range presence due to his good startup times, all of his throws generally do good damage and leave him in very favorable positions, and he can annoy people in neutral with his fireball which he can use to harass from various angles. But in most other areas, he's below average. He can't kill as early as most characters, most of his attacks and combos don't do great damage, and his survivability is poor due to his lack of options in the negative state.

I don't think you realize how much I actually defend the character and how I've already explained before most people what his better matchups are. Mario from Brawl was already a solid design, and they mostly ported him over after huge damage nerfs and taking away Cape Stalling and Jab canceling from him.

But again, you're comparing him from a stance from what he can't do. I always hear people complain that Shiek "can't kill" either, yet she still continues to populate the metagame at the moment. Killing doesn't always have to be by percentage; as I do recall the Cape, FLUDD as well as Fair doing exceptionally well at gimping. You're focusing too much on the frame data; If I recall correctly, I won my very first set on the Nintendodojo 3DS Singles Ladder a couple months back, with Mario against a player who used Shiek and Greninja. Sure, these characters may have what's percieved as "better" frame data, but that doesn't mean that they can outplay me with it. As someone with a lot of experience playing as Mario, I worked around the weaknesses by capitalizing on what you can do with those strengths. No matter who you play as, a character is only as strong as the decisions of the player.

For instance, Mario's FLUDD not only outzones, but can ultimately halt and/or repel just about any outside approach in the game. However, I reiterate again; It's not about what your character has. It's what you do with it that counts.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Brolylegs's recent performance at KIT makes me wonder something about the whole Marth vs Lucina thing.

For those unfamiliar with Brolylegs, he's a fighting game player who is disabled, and as such plays games basically using his mouth. He's known for using Chun-li in SF4, and has experience in Melee too. He recently got top 16 using Lucina.

When we talk about Marth and Lucina, we generally aay that Marth is better because if you can just aim tippers comsistently enough, then Marth's killing power is just overwhelmingly better. However, what if that simply wasn't possible? What if you, for whatever reason, can just not rely on tippers? Is Lucina then a clearly better option than Marth? Or indeed, is she worth picking over other characters, given her overall properties?

This also brings up the question of the extent to which games should require physical dexterity, but that's a different topic for a different thread.

How many times will people bring this up? She is worse on block on EVERY MOVE they have.

She literally has NO SAFE BUTTONS. Marth at least has d-tilt, FH Fair and retreating Bair.

She has nothing besides perfect spaced d-tilt.

One button

Let that sink in.

Being a Street Fighter player I am well aware of who Broly is. Good **** to him. More of a testament to the games overall balance rather then Lucina being anything special.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Bomb jumping/stalling got hella nerfed from Brawl either way. Samus relies on her tether/floatiness to recover.

yeah is got nerfed i uses it to cover my landings after an air combo some one in theair so theyare forced to respect my space as they land. or i just do bomb gimping.
@ Emblem Lord i thought she still had up smash? correct if im wrong by any means though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Brolylegs's recent performance at KIT makes me wonder something about the whole Marth vs Lucina thing.

For those unfamiliar with Brolylegs, he's a fighting game player who is disabled, and as such plays games basically using his mouth. He's known for using Chun-li in SF4, and has experience in Melee too. He recently got top 16 using Lucina.

When we talk about Marth and Lucina, we generally aay that Marth is better because if you can just aim tippers comsistently enough, then Marth's killing power is just overwhelmingly better. However, what if that simply wasn't possible? What if you, for whatever reason, can just not rely on tippers? Is Lucina then a clearly better option than Marth? Or indeed, is she worth picking over other characters, given her overall properties?

This also brings up the question of the extent to which games should require physical dexterity, but that's a different topic for a different thread.

Brolylegs was pretty known in brawl why wouldn't we know who he is?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Brolylegs was pretty known in brawl why wouldn't we know who he is?

hes actually way less known than you would think. the stream was flipping **** about him.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

hes actually way less known than you would think. the stream was flipping **** about him.

That's weird he's gotten a lot of exposure. Even more while playing sf4 with crosscounter. *shrugs* I didn't see KiT but I'll look for the archives.

 

[Emblem Lord]

yeah is got nerfed i uses it to cover my landings after an air combo some one in theair so theyare forced to respect my space as they land. or i just do bomb gimping.
@ Emblem Lord i thought she still had up smash? correct if im wrong by any means though.

Usmash in regards to what? Being safe?

You are on drugs. Also Lucinas moves only kill about 15% sooner than Marths non tippers. That is not significant at all.

 

[Makorel]

How did that tournament with BrolyLegs end? It got to the end of Smash 4 pools and then they switched to Melee.

Also as far as Lucina is concerned I think @ Emblem Lord has it right in that just because Lucina does well it doesn't mean she's necessarily better than Marth. Most agree Marth is better, and hypothetically if we accept that as fact then a Lucina winning Apex won't change that. If anything such a scenario would mean that just because Lucina is worse than Marth it doesn't mean she's not viable.