Character Competitive Impressions

[Z'zgashi]

>really good Yoshi
>could beat him with characters you dont play

Then he wasnt a really good Yoshi lol

 

[Big-Cat]

These characters - the ones without tricks that let them have things other characters dont really get to have without huge drawbacks - can't get by on their traits alone. They have to be piloted by someone who is good at Smash - period. But the characters with tricks? They're kind of playing a different game, where things are tipped in their favour because they have free toys that other characters don't have.

I don't care about your excuses. Diddy, Sheik, Zamus. Their basic strategies are obvious for what you need to learn. The likes of Luigi and Marth, not so much. This does not mean that those three are better or worse than Luigi and Marth, for example, at any point during this game's meta. Any character that outright promotes aggressive play and rushing in will appeal to most players as they like to go for a YOLO playstyle.

Only if there's lag to punish. This goes for other characters too. The ones who are doing so well competitively are ones who match up well against punish-based characters. When there's very little endlag to punish, you cancel out a whole class of characters who focus on punishing their opponent. These characters often have a reduced ability to approach safely compared to others, and they can't do much against characters like ZSS and Sheik unless their general Smash Bros abilities are at a higher level than their opponent's.

So in other words, the punishment based character outplays them. That's pure basics right there. Of course the punishment based character is going to have to work for their keep. That's the whole point. It's not just punishing end lag but also making strong reads. Nothing is more punishing than making the mistake BEFORE you actually get to commit because the opponent saw it coming.

 

[Thinkaman]

>really good Yoshi
>could beat him with characters you dont play

Then he wasnt a really good Yoshi lol

I mean, I'm sort of a weird case since I don't have a main in this game yet. (I think I've used+won with 8 different characters in tourneys?) When I say I "don't play someone", that really doesn't mean much of anything in most cases--especially someone as easy to pick up as Sheik or Diddy.

Some of the more esoteric and unique characters I can't play at that level automatically, like Peach, Shulk, or Pac-Man. But just having tons of experience and having watched a good amount of high level Sheik vids, it was pretty easy to pick up and immediately be formidable.

 

[etecoon]

Her 'difficulty killing' is as exaggerated and meaningless as MK's 'difficulty killing' was in Brawl.

MK could follow you right to the edge of the blast zone without repercussion and had legit power attacks that could be used as punishment or had real setups, people are dying to vanish gimmickry and rogue bouncing fish, it's not even close to the same thing

 

[Thinkaman]

MK had a lot of difficulty killing without gimps in Brawl, unless the MK player remembered that d-smash and up-b were moves.

 

[PK Gaming]

The way ZSS is designed keeps me from enjoying playing as her - I like her playstyle, but there's too much 'silliness' with her design and animations that just make me opt for a less waifu-designed character I don't need no eternally-oiled-up bodysuit and whip (really guys?). Peach is awesome, as is Lucina. I just hate winning as ZSS and having her show me her crotch for absolutely no reason as her victory pose. GG Sakurai, thanks.

Dude, you did not just play the "My waifu is more pure than yours" card! The fanservice being ZSS is pretty shameless, but i'll talk that over Peach's barbie doll face and awful voice.

Just close your eyes during the victory animation.

Don't be a prude, embrace the sexiness.

 

[Conda]

Dude, you did not just play the "My waifu is more pure than yours" card! The fanservice being ZSS is pretty shameless, but i'll talk that over Peach's barbie doll face and awful voice.

Don't be a prude, embrace the sexiness.

I'm saying the concept of a waifu is silly. Peach is the disney princess archetype - she fits the bill. She's not waifu fanservice any more than Mario is to the fans of hairy italian men, or Shulk is to fans of JRPG protagonists. Same goes for Rosalina - she's a space princess, and her design is like one you'd find in a Disney movie. That's the whole point of their design - cartoony princesses of magical kingdoms.

I'd advise against a discussion on the sexuality of ZSS. I was discussing how her character is totally lost in ZSS, and replaced with a dominatrix. It's bad fanservice, if the fans care about more than waifu fantasies. The whole waifu fantasy concept is strange and, when acted upon when you're in the designer seat, you end up with ZSS's design.

She has nothing of what I like about Samus's character as part of her design. She doesn't feel like a vulnerable armor-less bounty hunter with a tortured past and battle scars. They never attempt to convey this. She just has 'generic anime waifi' characteristics instead, which makes her more barbie-doll than Peach. Turning Samus Aran into a different character for the sake of obeying sexual social archetypes and the fantasies of their designers+fans is something we've seen happen before (Other M) .

I'd feel the same way if Snake in Brawl became a beefcake who showed off his muscles and was sexualised as well, as you'd sacrifice the portrayal of his actual character (which brawl did well). But male characters in videogames aren't derailed like this as often as female characters are, as we appreciate a wider array of characteristics in male characters and don't feel the need to change them to cater to a certain audience.

Back to the discussion,

I mean, I'm sort of a weird case since I don't have a main in this game yet. (I think I've used+won with 8 different characters in tourneys?) When I say I "don't play someone", that really doesn't mean much of anything in most cases--especially someone as easy to pick up as Sheik or Diddy.

Some of the more esoteric and unique characters I can't play at that level automatically, like Peach, Shulk, or Pac-Man. But just having tons of experience and having watched a good amount of high level Sheik vids, it was pretty easy to pick up and immediately be formidable.

I know how you feel. I don't have a decided main yet either.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I dunno about that list. But anyway what's zard's potential again? He's a very straightforward character, so where does the potential lie? I can see potential in most of the characters you listed as worse. There's room for exploration with a lot of them. But with Zard it seems there's not really much to be discovered because he's a simple character who relies on being heavy and hitting hard enough to come out on top even if he gets his ass kicked most of the time.

 

[Smog Frog]

you play zard defensively, and he has the tools for the job(flamethrower, nair, jab, and his tails/wings are disjointed, so his jab is basically ikes that does 1 more damage) and he capitalizes on mistakes the best/2nd best of anybody in the cast(ganon is a contender) because he can punish from anywhere on the stage. flare blitz, sliding rock smash, oos fly/usmash, fsmash if you make a hard read. and if he gets you offstage, his offstage game is amazing. fair, nair, bair, flamethrower on the ledge, he has alot of offstage options. basically, zard is a defensive behemoth you would play much like bowser.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm just teasing, no need to get super serious

***

In other news, Wario is one of the dumbest characters in this game. Discuss?

 

[Yokoblue]

I'm just teasing, no need to get super serious

***

In other news, Wario is one of the dumbest characters in this game. Discuss?

He just got a huge kill move like Little mac, jigglypuff and G&W

 

[Thinkaman]

I actually don't feel like Charizard is very straightforward at all--I would sooner attribute that to DK and maaaybe Bowser.

Charizard is a fairly bad heavy character, in terms of being a heavy character. Compared to other heavies, his moveset tends to be just as slow (or even slower) while modestly weaker. The catch is that he gets a slew of niche advantages for this handicap:

• Extra double jump
• Excellent run speed
• Solid OoS options
• Amazing jab
• Armored specials

He's a very curious hybrid between a heavy and a speedster.

At the risk of making a statement that could be interpreted as an insult, I feel like Charizard is more interesting and requires more thought than other heavies besides Ganon. (And I guess Bowser Jr?)

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm just teasing, no need to get super serious

***

In other news, Wario is one of the dumbest characters in this game. Discuss?

Low angled ftilt on the ledge? Never seen dis **** befow. What's dumb about him?

 

[PK Gaming]

He just got a huge kill move like Little mac, jigglypuff and G&W

Except unlike those moves, the waft is extremely good

Low angled ftilt on the ledge? Never seen dis **** befow. What's dumb about him?

This clip perfectly sums it up

 

[Conda]

Except unlike those moves, the waft is extremely good



This clip perfectly sums it up

It's time to stop posting that video link now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's time to stop posting that video link now.

Ya that's... not surprising in any way. Or dumb. Its actually underwhelming.

 

[mimgrim]

Btw, Villager is underrated. I think he could be top 10. He is quite the character. Best recovery in game, bair and fair keep opponents out, bowling ball gimps recoveries, tree is nice depending on how it is used, pocket shuts down some characters well [pocket a Rob's gyro and keep it..I would know :/], Gyroids offer great distraction, ...everything else is just kind of average to decent, but he's pretty impressive! I'd put Villager over Fox as my 10th anyways.

Eh. Villager doesn't do so great against characters that can easily run in on his laggy keep-away moves, which is most of the perceived top 10 by most people, or just easily ignore them by going into the air easily and god forbid both. That said he is pretty brutal against those who can't invade his space easily and is going to be very hard to out-zone if he can even be out-zoned. I see him as more of a gate-keeper really, he can be really brutal to most of those below him but has a pretty brutal time against most of those above him.

 

[wedl!!]

specluation ho

S+: Goddess Tier

#1: (barely edges out diddy because her recovery is better and doesn't get gibbed that hard by Sheik)

S: God Tier

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A: High Tier

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B: Mid Tier

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C: Lower Middle Tier

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D: Low Tier

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F: Swordfighter Tier:

#51:

Red numbers indicates a character I'm not sure about.

 

[Smog Frog]

i stopped reading when i saw zss at first

but i kept reading anyway and saw zard at 50th

what the **** are you people on

 

[Shaya]

If you're going to make [one of?] your first post in this thread as a tier list, you better at least put it in some way that isn't an eyesore from your line breaks.
You shouldn't make it a chore for people who wish to ignore lists (even if people are making lists, this thread isn't only for such a thing).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Is there a Peach player taking names right now?

 

[ZHMT]

Except unlike those moves, the waft is extremely good



This clip perfectly sums it up

Excuse me? Assuming were talking about Oil Panic and Rest here. How is Rest not extremely good? Oil Panic is great in teams, but singles, yeah, not so much.

I'm completely lost, please enlighten me.

 

[HeavyLobster]

#34:

Get back in the cellar, Zelda. Sakurai says you're not allowed to be decent.

#39:


#42:

I know it's tradition but the Links are actually not that bad in this game.

#48:

Dedede below Zelda, Ganon, WFT, Kirby? What is this?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Wario at 29th you know I'm gonna say something. Reflex looked amazing today at KiT. Him and esam were saying wario has top 10 potential.

 

[KevJames]

Instead of pointing out what's wrong with that list, I thought I should point out what's GOOD about that list.




My work here is done.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Instead of pointing out what's wrong with that list, I thought I should point out what's GOOD about that list.




My work here is done.

Which is what lol

 

[PK Gaming]

It's time to stop posting that video link now.

I don't understand, what is the point of contention here? Should I have been more clear? It's a one hour video, of course i'll post it more than once.

Wario's an extremely agile heavyweight with a KO move that can literally win matches at absurdly low %. Gluttony is a strong player, but he makes a tons of mistakes (he probably loses 40-50% as a result of whiffed Smash attacks) and yet he lands the waft once and KOes at absurdly low % (he can even combo into it). All of those punishes feel inconsequential in retrospect. I thought the Yoshi clip perfectly demonstrated that.

Excuse me? Assuming were talking about Oil Panic and Rest here. How is Rest not extremely good? Oil Panic is great in teams, but singles, yeah, not so much.

I'm completely lost, please enlighten me.

Since when has Rest been anything other than a high risk / high reward move? The waft is a low risk high reward move, they're not even in the same league.

 

[Kofu]

I'm going to try and compose my thoughts into a tier list of sorts. Characters will roughly be in order in the tiers, but there could probably be some variation within the tiers, even some between the tier boundaries. So keep that in mind when reading. I'm not a top-level player and haven't seen good play of every character, so some of the placements will be based on- *GASP* -my impressions.

Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Tier 4:
Tier 5:

I meant to have 4 tiers of 10 and one of 11 but I did two with eleven before remembering that Mewtwo wasn't released yet lol. But these looked pretty good to me so I didn't change it.

You'll see I didn't label the tiers with names, just numbers. I did that because I feel the traditional distinction of "high, middle, low" really doesn't do a lot of the characters in tiers 4 and 5 (and even a lot in 3) justice. Most of them have a shot at doing well against the tiers above them. From what I can tell, the characters lower in my list simply have to work harder to achieve their game plan and struggle more against the upper tiers' tools. Of course, the tier 1 and 2 characters have to work hard as well if they want to win; AFAIK there are no "easy win" strategies in Smash 4, at least none like Brawl Dedede's chaingrabs.

Spoiler: Tier 1

: Not much needs to be said about Sheik that hasn't already been brought up. She has excellent mobility, a great projectile (and grenades), crazy damage racking, fast attacks, and a difficult-to-intercept recovery. She might not remain number 1 but I wouldn't be surprised if she stays there.

: The little chimp has a lot of things going for him. Solid kill power in his aerials, deceptive range, one of the greatest set-up throws in the game, and what is probably the best of the command grabs. He has a decent stage control tool in bananas too. His weaknesses are mainly a fairly straightforward game plan and relatively rigid recovery. I expect him to drop a little in viability as time goes on but not too much, his tools are just too solid for that.

: I'll be honest, from my experience with the demo I wasn't very impressed with Pikachu, mainly because his kill moves are kind of hard to land. However, recent experience with him has really impressed me, and I feel he's definitely one of the best in the game. He's small, mobile, and has extremely quick attacks. The kill power that I thought was an issue initially... really isn't. And against the characters he can't kill easily he can just gimp them. Definitely a threat.

: Fast ground speed is really good in this game. I don't remember it being as potent in Brawl, but whatever is the case it's very potent now. Sonic's obviously the fastest thing in the game which alone is a massive advantage. His mixups from neutral are without peer and his throws are all good. Add on to that his buffed range and generally better normals and he's an absurd threat.

: The dino's a zippy little dude with big hitboxes and impressive range. His eggs explode when they reach the end of their arc which means you can't always just avoid them and shielding them is the best option... which just opens the door for Yoshi to get in your face. He has minor problems dealing with projectile pressure but he can pressure a lot of other characters himself. His recovery is another sore point but at least gives good distance. He could fall as time progresses but he'll still be dangerous.

: Nothing about Ness's attributes makes me think "wow, this is a great character!" His attacks, on the other hand, are nothing to shake at. His smashes were all buffed from Brawl, as were his dash attack and FAir. Actually, all of his aerials are scary. NAir lasts for forever, BAir and UAir kill, and DAir spikes. And who can mention Ness without bringing up his BThrow? With weaker DI and rage, it's probably the most ridiculous kill move in the game. If forced to use Up-B, his recovery is poor, but skilled Ness players will conserve their second jump to give them the best chance of recovering. I really don't know where he'll end up in the long run but right now, Ness is really good.

: I haven't fought a huge number of Zero Suit Samus users, but a couple have really challenged me. Her paralyzer is a scary projectile that really limits options because if you get hit, you're at her mercy. She also has great range and much more power that one would expect. Flip Jump is also stupid (especially the invincibility in the beginning). She does have a slightly hard time against shields, and her paralyzer probably isn't quite as potent on non-omega stages (which unfortunately is where most of my experience is from). But I really don't think she's worse than top 10 and probably belongs in the top 5. Sakurai said she was buffed from Brawl and, I think overall, that is accurate.

: I wanted to like Rosalina as a character and use her but that just didn't work out. Anyway, one of my first challenging experiences on For Glory was against a reasonably skilled Rosalina player who showed me what could be done by zoning with Luma. Now I personally feel that Luma should be used as a way to enhance Rosalina's attacks and not as the main strategy (since Luma is so vulnerable). But Luma offers an added degree of safety that no other character has. Even without Luma, Rosalina's hitboxes are quite massive and disjointed which can keep her relatively safe until Luma respawns. She's not as good as the hype leader her out to be but skilled R&L players won't give their opponents many openings.

: Placing Falcon here might be a bit of bias on my end; the characters I play don't seem to deal well with his speed, range and power. Regardless, I feel like he might be one of the best in the game. I already mentioned that fast ground speed is really good in this game, and, buffs excluded, he's second only to the hedgehog. His throws lead to potent attack strings, and he has kill confirms with falling UAir into Knee (which is nothing to scoff at). His range is also exceptional (like what is the hitbox on the end of the rapid jab honestly and FSmash is stupid too). Plus his UTilt works like Samus's wishes it did. He also doesn't get abused by stupid things like chaingrabs anymore. I dunno, he just feels like a fantastic character.

: I don't totally get the Fox hype. But I admit that he's effective at racking damage, forcing approaches, and linking attacks (probably one of the best in that regard). My opinion of him probably isn't as high as it should be since he seems to require smart, quick inputs to be totally effective and wi-fi really isn't the best place to show those off. I'm kind of putting him here because so many people think he's the best thing since bread bird and, while I don't completely agree, he feels generally superior to the characters he's above.

Spoiler: Tier 2

: I think they went a little overboard with the implementation of Aura this go around. Having rage further boost Lucario when his percent gets high is frustrating, too. Even with his absurd power cap, I don't think Lucario is overwhelming in general. His attacks seem kind of slow and they really don't have that great range (even if they are mostly disjointed). He struggles a lot against characters that can ignore/reflect/absorb Aura Sphere and Force Palm, his two greatest spacing tools. He's another character I think will drop as people figure out his weaknesses.

: Shulk has two strengths: his range and his Monado Arts. I could be wrong but he seems to have the highest range on his moves on average out of all the characters, which is sometimes compensated by extremely direct attack angles (FSmash, UAir). Without Monado Arts, his specs are pretty mediocre. But the ability to change what he's good at on a whim is amazing. Speed Shulk in particular is scary for rushdown, and even with the offensive losses in Shield he can still pose a threat thanks to rage. He has to commit a lot to his options but I think that good Shulks will be able to work around this and change their Arts to match the scenario. He seems hard to master but whoever does will gain great rewards.

: Frog got nerfed the worst out of all the characters in 1.0.4 but he's still very viable with some of the best mobility specs in the game (he's better than Sheik in every way). Water Shuriken is still a fantastic projectile, especially when fully charged because it's large, slow-moving, multi-hitting, and transcendent priority. Substitute, while unreliable, is also especially strong (the strongest of the normal counters AFAIK, Vision might beat it). His biggest weakness is his odd attack angles which can make hitting the opponent difficult. But he's still a threat to watch out for and I don't think that'll change much.

: Wario has a bunch of weird attributes. He's quite heavy but has a small frame. His Up-B isn't very good for recovering but his Side-B is. And, just like in Brawl, his greatest asset is his aerial mobility. He lost the ability to airdodge safely into the ground and to SHAC DAir, but gained a better dash attack, bike, and Waft (mainly by virtue of rage). Time will tell if his weaving ability will keep him a threat or if people will learn to work around it, but I can't seem him falling too much. His tools are just too solid.

: I have to start the blue bomber's comments by saying that Sakurai did a really good job of capturing the character's original games. If only he would do that with others (SAMUS). Anyway, Mega Man is really good. He plays differently from a lot of characters, but I feel pretty confident that he's the best mid-range zoner in the game. Pellets cancel out most any other standard projectiles (including ones of his own that are reflected), Metal Blades interrupt so much, and his disjointed FAir and BAir are extremely good for spacing. His UTilt is also one of the most ridiculous moves in the game, hitting on frame six and killing anywhere from 80%-100% depending on the character and rage. I could honestly see him going up to top 10 in the future because he's just so good at disrupting other characters.

: We're already at the third third-party character? Yep, all of them are quite viable. Pac-Man has a unique moveset that includes an absurd way to disrupt attacks, a move that can become one of 8 projectiles, and a stage control tool that forces the opponent to jump. He struggles a little to kill but the fact that he almost never has to approach is definitely something in his favor. His normals link well to rack damage and his recovery is, generally, surprisingly safe. No real weaknesses but no particular strengths, either, besides a very effective keep-out game.

: I've been starting to see a lot more of the king of second bananas on Wi-Fi lately, probably because Boss has been putting in work with him. The 1.0.4 patch fixed a few issues he had, the biggest buff being a boost to his FSmash's power. His FAir got a hitbox size increase, as well. His DThrow is likely the best for follow-ups in the game (Diddy's is a close second) and his fireballs, while simple do a good job at pressuring opponents into shield where they can be grabbed. He continues to have trouble approaching and suffers from a slightly predictable recovery, but overall Smash 4 and its mechanics have been good to Luigi.

: For a long time I was in denial about having trouble fighting Mario. But, with a bit of enlightening from this and other threads, I've come to realize that Mario is actually pretty good at putting pressure on his opponents. His attacks come out fast and end fast (for the most part) and he got a significant air speed buff, at least in comparison to the rest of the cast. While I could see him dropping in the future because of poor range (Luigi suffers similarly), he does what he does well; that is, he catches opponents in strings that hopefully will lead into a smash or a gimp.

: The differences between these two are so minute that there's no point in separating them, IMO, although Pit is pretty empirically the superior of the two. He got a pretty impressive range increase from Brawl and gained a fantastic new punish in Upperdash Arm (which, I'd like to point out, is basically the same as Raptor Boost, except it has super armor, deflects projectiles, and doesn't put Pit into special fall. Bias much?). As has been stated in the thread, nothing about him particularly stands out, but that alone is a pretty big deal, because it means that he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses either. Both Pits are likely to do well in tournament but seem more or less outclassed by the higher-tiered characters.

: Along with Shulk, the character that got the most significant buffs from the 1.0.4 patch. He was far from unplayable before, but now his attack speed coupled with his range and power is just disgusting. Ike also received much from his customs. They open up new options for him with gimping (Tempest), beating projectiles (Close Combat), and setting up for kills (Paralyzing Counter). He remains vulnerable to juggles but a good Ike will know how to work around that and to use his immense range to his advantage. I think it's only a matter of time before one or more Ikes start taking tournaments by storm.

Spoiler: Tier 3

: I will admit that I am unfamiliar with the competitive prospects of the Miis, so where I'm placing them has a lot to do with hearsay and a little to do with my own, slight testing of them. As far as the Brawler goes, he's the Mii with the playstyle that best fits my own. Reasonable ground speed, excellent air speed (surprisingly the best in the game) and quick attacks mesh well together. Feint Jump is a cool mobility special move and Helicopter Kick is just great. As long as the Miis' custom options are available I can see the Brawler doing well (and even if they're not allowed, he'll probably still be usable).

: Don't have too much experience against Peach, but she seems slightly more effective than in Brawl. Her kill moves feel marginally more effective and I believe she now has a functional airdodge. Turnip pulling being slower is unfortunate but I don't think it should slow her down too much. I don't really use her so I can't say exactly how the new game works out for her but from what I hear she likes it. Oh yeah, her Up-B is much, much safer than it looks at first glance. The parasol is a massive protective hitbox.

: ROB wants to be a standard spacing character but he lacks the close quarters moves to be amazing at it. So he has to rely a lot on his projectiles which, to be fair, do a decent enough job. His aerials seem buffed overall from Brawl (with the one exception that BAir no longer has a hitbox on his body) which is nice, but his recovery is worse. He has a hard time with being juggled and the new game mechanics really don't help with that. He does have what is likely the second most reliable kill throw after Ness's BThrow, which is something to note when fighting him, especially if you're a light character.

: Ah, the Animal Crossing Avatar. I was really hyped when I heard he was going to be in Smash 4 and made it a point to main him. Fortunately for me, the demo had him as one of the five playable characters, and I haven't really looked back. For the most part, he's a solid character. Lloid Rocket does a fair job at helping Villager approach, which is a good thing, since his mobility is quite poor. A lot of his moves are pretty gimmicky but are effective at shutting characters down if used right. His primary weaknesses are a terrible grab (though with a kill through to compensate), somewhat limited range, and general vulnerability to reflectors. Likely a viable character but will struggle against the more mobile ones.

: Coming from her stint in Brawl as a low tier, Jigglypuff had a lot to prove. And, honestly, I think she's done a pretty good job at that so far. Rest is easier to land now and kills better, she gained a crazy kill aerial in BAir, and can do more Wall-of-Pain work thanks to the slightly increased hitstun. I've fought a handful of Puff users that gave me decent trouble. Going from what others have said, she seems to require dedication to use her to her highest potential, primarily knowing when to fake out an approach and when to actually go in. Her light weight is a detriment, but it shouldn't hold her back too much.

: Robin's a bit of a breath of fresh air as far as sword users go, since he also has projectiles to enhance his spacing/pressure game. In a sense that makes him considerably scarier than characters like Shulk or Ike because in most cases he doesn't have to approach. His projectiles also give him immense shield pressure (I really think it's a good thing that Arcfire and Arcthunder have limited uses, they're very good). The Levin Sword/Bronze Sword dichotomy give him a unique way to mix up the power of his sword attacks; Levin to kill/rack damage, Bronze to combo. As far as I can tell his only real weaknesses are terrible ground mobility, the (temporarily) limited uses of his powerful attacks, and susceptibility to juggles.

: Remember when we thought the ESRB link couldn't be real because it had the Duck Hunt dog as a character? Well, he's in the game and he plays pretty uniquely. The control he has over his projectiles even after they're sent off make them dynamic and hard to adapt/react to. There's also a lot more disjoint on the character's attacks than I would expect. Not having played many Duck Hunt mains, I'm not entirely sure what the character's particular strengths and weaknesses are. I guess the main one I can see is that, projectile game notwithstanding, his game plan seems pretty one-dimensional (I could be totally wrong, though). The traps he can create with those projectiles make this much less of an issue. His recovery is also very one-dimensional and easy to intercept if caught in time, lacking a hitbox and being unable to be interrupted.

: DK always bugged me in Brawl because it felt like he did everything Bowser did but better. The two are more distinct in Smash 4 but I still think DK is the better heavy and superior character. Unlike Bowser, who doesn't seem to have any combo potential aside from his jab, DK has a tripping DTilt and an UTilt that leads into other things. As a whole his playstyle seems to flow an lot better and without much sacrifice of power or weight. He's also got quite a few moves that deal extrs shield damage, which can give him an opening to pound the opponent with his powerful attacks.

: Probably one of the more interesting characters, at least in terms of stage control and zoning options. Gunners feel like a more mobile Samus but more projectile-based. Her customs are primarily based off of those of other characters, which opens up interesting options. Fighting a character that doesn't have projectiles? Use bombs (and why do Gunner's explode on contact with an enemy but Samus's don't???). Fighting a mobile character that missiles aren't great against? Use Flame Pillar. Much like Brawler I am not well-versed in what high-level Gunner play looks like, but I see a lot of potential in the character. The spacing ability in FAir and UAir is immense and grenades are such a good stage control tool.

: Marth has always been a character that rewards good master of the basics. He has a fairly safe recovery, excellent disjoints, and very potent power on his tippered attacks (as well as a grab range that makes no sense, at least Zelda and Palutena are magical). In the last two games he has been just below top tier because his simple tools were incredibly effective. In a sense, they still are. Apparently his attacks flow worse than in previous games (I'm not a Marth main and am actually terrible with the character so I'm going by what Shaya and Emblem Lord say) and his old mainstay of fast falling his aerials to get followups doesn't work anymore, but it's hard to argue with perfectly spaced attacks that can kill extremely early. The real reason Marth just isn't as effective anymore is because other swordsmen, mainly Shulk and Ike, have greater range and usually have better options at close range.

: Bowser's general redesign was quite exciting. While he wasn't actually on the slow side in Brawl (a common misperception) his massive frame and telegraphed recovery made him an easy target for juggles and gimps. He still has those problems but is better because he got a general power boost. His formerly useless DAir has become a risky but powerful attack, Flying Slam kills sooner, and his new FSmash kills really early if it can be landed. Being the heaviest character, he also benefits quite a bit from rage. His size is still his greatest detriment (it always is in Smash) as he can't use his increased mobility to move fluidly to avoid attacks. Definitely dangerous and a force to be respected, but not the juggernaut he was made out to be soon after release.

Spoiler: Tier 4

: Okay, now we're getting to the characters that I haven't seen a lot of love toward. A good number of them seem to have considerable potential but no one notable (or very few notable people) are using them. In Palutena's case, a lot of her potential lies in her custom specials, which are rather rudely being excluded when she's usually allowed to be used. The two moves that would probably make the biggest splash are Lightweight, which "turns her into Sonic for 10 seconds," and Super Speed, which functions a lot like Spin Dash and allows for some devastating combos. I honestly never understood the "Palutena is bottom tier" camp because her movement specs are inherently good, she has two attacks that literally beat out almost everything else as an simple property, and she has a killer grab game. She could easily be higher on the list if she gets good rep by someone skilled with her and/or customs are allowed. Since hers are unlocked from the beginning and they're her design's whole schtick, it seems stupid to bar them off. And if you're allowing hers, you might as well allow all other customs, too. *hint, hint*

: Falco got changed pretty significantly from Brawl. I was discussing with one of my friends about how they changed him and they basically took away most of what made Falco good in Brawl: his restrictive laser game, chaingrab, DACUS, and quick spike. Lasers obviously still exist but they're nowhere near as spammable (in a lot of ways they function as an interrupter similar to Villager's slingshots only with more priority, range, and commitment), and his DAir is still potent but much slower (most meteors are strong in this game though). What they kept--and in a lot of ways I feel like they buffed--was his CQC game. Falco's jumps remain the best in the game, and they allow for followups from aerial launches that other characters can only dream about. If Falco gets his opponent into the air at high percents (which isn't hard to do), they're probably dead between BAir, UAir, and, if customs are enabled, Reflector Void. In general he has good damage off of his attacks and they have deceptive range. He also has a solid gimping game (FAir is now good for something). His biggest weaknesses seem to be a somewhat telegraphed recovery, low weight, and mediocre horizontal mobility. I don't see anywhere for Falco to go but up ("I prefer the air" pun not intended). I think I've seen a tier list that placed Palutena and Falco as bottom two. My response to whoever made the list would be something along the lines of "bro do you even smash."

: Going to try to stop ranting/cut down on the text for the next few characters. I don't remember Link's range in Brawl being as impressive as it is in Smash 4. Honestly, it feels like he can shut down almost any approach by jabbing or FTilting. His moves also gained the kill power that they so sorely lacked in Brawl (probably wrong, but I could swear Toon Link was stronger than him. At the very least, Link's USmash was pathetic). His mobility really isn't great but with such great spacing tools it usually doesn't have to be. Link feels kind of like a heavy character that also has the ability to zone with projectiles. Aside from slow attack speed and a straightforward (but not necessarily easy to gimp) recovery his weaknesses don't feel very overwhelming.

: Not much to say about Lucina, since her tools are identical to Marth's, just with less reward. That's her biggest problem, IMO. Her moves are good but there are no gimmicks to them and she doesn't get the rewards for spacing that Marth does. The one thing to say about her is that you can't intentionally weaken her effectiveness by getting too close to her unlike Marth. If she hits you, she hits you.

: So I never bought into the "Olimar sucks now" camp that permeated the Smash community during the 3DS days. I can attribute some of that to never fully learning how to fight him in Brawl, but a character that small with an almost entirely (significantly) disjointed moveset. Now, his moves have been toned down from Brawl, and not being able to use more than 3 Pikmin at a time allows some characters to get rid of them better. But he seems one of the more frustrating characters to face, and I agree with Shaya that he could easily be a high tier threat given enough time/skilled enough players (here's looking at you, Dabuz/Myran). His attacks sans Pikmin seem to have been improved and his recovery is no longer a free gimp sample.

: Charizard's kind of cool. More mobile than Ganon and Dedede (actually the fastest on the ground out of all of them) and has several muscly specials that have super/heavy armor, enabling him to give the middle finger to a lot of other attacks. I'd argue his Flamethrower is better than Bowser's Fire Breath because it's more aimable, too. His jab is pretty dang good (at least in range) and he has a bunch of partial body invincibility on his attacks, especially on his wings and tail (much of which are intangible in normal gameplay). But even with the less substantial wings and tail, he seems to have the worst hurtbox in the game. He doesn't have any real safe approaches and struggles to get out of a disadvantaged state. Charizard marks the point on the list where the characters start to have... real flaws that hold them back.

: I've wanted Bowser Jr. in Smash for a long time, so when I learned that his moveset didn't actively incorporate his Shadow Mario guise. It wasn't really a practical option, though, given that the Koopalings are his alts, and since Shadow Mario and the Magic Brush made it in as his Final Smash, I can't complain and have come to love the character's actual implementation. Oh, competitive thoughts? Well, Bowser Jr's moveset is entirely disjointed, which is never a bad thing. Unfortunately I feel like his efficacy is hampered by his poor ground speed and considerable lack of safety on shields. His rather... round hurbox also holds him back, I feel. In his defense, he has some of the most interesting stage control tools in Down- and Up-B, and Clown Kart Dash his unique among attacks of its sort in that it can be cancelled into a strong attack, although it has this versatility in exchange for being unable to shield out of it.

: In this iteration, I no longer feel that Toon Link is the superior incarnation of Link. He might end up proving me wrong, but with my current standpoint, even if he is better, it's not a night-and-day comparison like it was in Brawl. This time around, it feels like Toon Link sacrifices power and range for speed. Speed (movement as well as in attacks) is a critically important attribute, but so is range, and I haven't felt that Toon Link's superiority in agility to his more realistic counterpart makes him definitively better. If I'm going to be honest, Toon Link has simply impressed me less than normal Link. He's less dangerous in general and doesn't really have an edge in recovery. I may be tainted by Wi-fi experiences against normal Link; if someone can prove me wrong, do so.

: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. The devs took note of Meta Knight's unequivocal frame data superiority, as well as his general range/priority superiority, and toned him down quite a bit. I mean, when the game was first released, the tip of his sword simply didn't have a hitbox. That has since been rectified for several of his attacks but he doesn't have nearly the reach that Brawl veterans may have been expecting. I don't think it's right to write him off just yet, however. His offstage game is still excellent, as is his recovery, and he has a move that is quite similar in power and function to Farore's Wind (ergo, a potent punishes). Aside from his specials his moveset is pretty bland though.

: For a perfect character, Dedede sure has a lot of flaws. The biggest one is slow attack speed, the second being terrible movement. Ganon is worse overall, but Dedede has the worst airspeed in the game. Though somewhat remedied by his multiple jumps (which give him a slight edge in avoiding landing traps when compared to other heavies), it also makes it hard to escape aerial strings, probably moreso than any other character when coupled with his massive frame. He no longer has his cheese that was so basic to him in Brawl but did retain his general tools of massive, lasting hitboxes to keep people out (Dedede's UAir is probably my favorite one in the game; many others have more practical uses but a move that beats what I think is every DAir in a head-to-head interaction is just fantastic). From my experience using him I agree with his dedicated mains: he'll beat some characters handily but lose to a lot just as badly.

Spoiler: Tier 5

: Just by virtue of how he worked in Brawl, Ganon benefited among the most from the shift to Smash 4's mechanics. Punishing poor airdodging? Easier than ever! Recovery? Can't be ledgehogged anymore! Need to kill really early? Rage is your thing! That's to say nothing of his general crappy moveset fixes (Wizard's Foot now actually covers his FOOT, Up-B is no longer punishable ON HIT, DSmash links slightly better although not a move you should be using often, FAir actually autocancels sometimes). He still has his problems, particularly in mobility, recovery, and slow attack speed, but his options are safer in Smash 4 overall. He also benefits from the inclusion of customs. Think Brawl Ganon but with a slightly more functional moveset.

: Remember how I mentioned that I probably underrate this guy? Yeah, that's why he's down here. I honestly don't think he's a bad character. His mobility ranges from average to good, his attacks are entirely disjointed, and his recovery is phenomenal. So why is he down near the bottom? Simply put, Game & Watch needs to work hard to win most matches. He doesn't have crazy attack speed, strong kill power, high damage output, a powerful combo game, or a good neutral projectile. Most of his attacks are unsafe on shield, which makes approaching difficult, which isn't helped by the high lag on most of his aerials. He also doesn't have any solid kill setups so he ends up fishing for a kill move or a lucky gimp to end matches. I don't think he's an inherently flawed character; the only one of his attributes that's flat-out bad is his weight. Almost everything he has seems to hover around average, and so I feel that most of his MUs will be close to even. If there is a flaw in his design, I'd say that it's an intended focus on attacks that are either unpredictable (Judge) or niche in usage (Oil Panic). They can certainly turn a match around (and Oil Panic is critical versus a few characters) but for the most part they're gimmicks.

: The more I play against Kirby, the more I feel like there's some untapped potential in his game. His aerial all gave very low landing lag and they tend to lead into a few more hits on the ground. Basically, Kirby has a decent combo game. His multiple jumps give him an edge at gimping as well. Unfortunately, his range isn't phenomenal and it's relatively easy to keep him out, since he doesn't have a projectile. Similar to Game & Watch, little about him seems bad, but he doesn't have a whole lot that's good either, outside of some combos and a wicked punish game in Stone and Hammer Flip. They probably tried to differentiate him and Jigglypuff and ended up saddling him with the more mediocre moveset and attributes.

: To Doc's credit, he's the least similar of the clones. He actually has a handful of distinct attacks and plays a little differently than his civilian counterpart. Unfortunately, I don't think those differences lend themselves to many situations where using Doc over Mario is warranted. He exchanges mobility and recovery for slightly higher damage output and more plentiful kill moves. That would be fine and dandy and all if another Mario clone didn't already exist who is also less mobile but more given to damaging attacks. I know it's not really fair to compare Doc with Luigi because the latter's moveset is so different, but I feel that Luigi does the "like Mario but less agile and more powerful" schtick better. Doc does retain Mario's generally fast attack speed, but when your range and mobility are so poor it kind of makes it hard to get in to do anything with those fast attacks. I mean, Mario's only one of two characters that has multiple clones, the other being Marty. But he only has one clone in this game because they didn't bring back Roy (oh wait, they did ).

: Little Mac is just a little too specialized, IMO. His ground game is phenomenal, likely one of the best in the game. But that's the problem: I don't think it IS strictly the best. Sure, his ground speed outpaces almost everybody, his jab is frame 1, his Dash Attack has good range, FTilt is probably the best poking tool, his smash attacks have super armor, and he has an option to jump over low projectiles. However, his grab game isn't great, and being more or less restricted to the ground really limits his options to approach and to follow up. He has the power of a heavy but with none of the survivability that makes them scary, instead opting for sheer speed (which when combined with his strength is pretty frightening). He just feels too much like a one-trick pony and gets invalidated by stage counterpicks too drastically for me to consider him good. I think that as people learn how he functions (and how there's almost never a reason to not try and gimp him) that he'll drop in effectiveness.

: When I heard that the devs felt that Samus was the strongest character from there testing, I was a little amused. I mean, I thought they were almost certainly wrong, but at the very least I hoped she'd feel more effective than in Brawl. There are a few improvements here and there, but they're nowhere near enough to put her to be anywhere near the top. Honestly, I'm just disappointed that they took Bowser and overhauled him but not Samus. The scariest aspect about her is Charge Shot, but that alone can't make a character effective. There are just too many flaws in her moveset that need to be rectified before she becomes a serious competitor. I'm also upset that they didn't take into account more of her impressive arsenal of weapons from her own games when making her customs, but that's not really a competitive thought.

: Same disclaimer for the Swordfighter as for the other Miis: I don't have much experience using or fighting them. His normals are mostly unremarkable and overly laggy for what they do, but UAir deals ridiculous damage and DAir is much like Kirby's. There is some potential in his specials, though. Shuriken of Light ought to be explored more, as it's a projectile that does more damage at range (quite unique). Chakram can either be used as a distant pressure tool or a close-range interrupter. Reversal Slash is probably his biggest niche over the game's other sword users. Time will tell if it's enough to make him usable, but as it stands, Swordfighter is pretty mediocre.

: I think Zelda's moveset has a bit of what Ganon's has. A lot of her moves aren't necessarily bad, and in a vacuum are actually quite good (DTilt comes to mind, and sweetspotted lightning kicks are brutal). But when they're all put together on one character, you have a problem. Zelda isn't particularly mobile and her moveset really allows her no way to approach. She has plenty of good tools to keep people out and to reset to neutral, but if she ever gets behind, it's going to be an absurdly uphill battle for her to get back on top. There are plenty of minor changes to her moveset that, though they wouldn't make her anywhere close to top tier, would help her game a lot.

: Wii Fit Trainer is... pretty clearly not designed with singles in mind. So many of her moves hit behind her and can offer some added protection from the back. Unfortunately for her, characters are generally not in front of and behind you at the same time in a one-on-one. Those that actually have different effects depending on which side hits them (like FTilt/FAir) are good enough gimmicks, but most of her moveset would be better served by her leaning into give her better reach when she attacks or something. As is also commonly noted, a good number of her attacks fail to hit shorter opponents, even if they're just standing there. In the character's defense, her attacks deal reasonable damage and her customs open up a lot of options for her. But I don't think they're really enough to redeem her usually ineffective normals and poor (horizontal) range.

I may go back and write up a little more on some of the characters with shorter paragraphs but as it stands the whole thing is basically a TL;DR post and that would just make it worse. Like, Falco has the longest write-up. I don't even use Falco. Why is his the longest? No idea.

A few thoughts while completing the character write-ups:
- I probably put too much value on disjoint and range
- For the most part I take in the popular opinion regarding character placement (see Fox and my changed opinion of the Mario Bros/Ness)
- I like to see results before I rank a character highly (probably why Olimar is so low down)
- Most characters shouldn't and can't be played like their previous incarnations, either because of move changes or because of universal changes to the game's engine.
- Movement speed is critical, fast attack speed is great, zoning abilities are useful but not necessarily game-winning.
- I need to stop basing my opinions soly on Wi-Fi experience even though I am generally aware of its limitations and what it enhances/weakens (read: I need to make more of an effort to attend IRL events so instead of just pretending to know what I'm talking about I can REALLY know what I'm talking about).

Well, there you have it, my magnum opus for the thread. Read it, agree with it, disagree with it, bash my opinions in it, question me about it. It's out in the public now.

 

[Conda]

I'm going to try and compose my thoughts into a tier list of sorts. Characters will roughly be in order in the tiers, but there could probably be some variation within the tiers, even some between the tier boundaries. So keep that in mind when reading. I'm not a top-level player and haven't seen good play of every character, so some of the placements will be based on- *GASP* -my impressions.

Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Tier 4:
Tier 5:

I meant to have 4 tiers of 10 and one of 11 but I did two with eleven before remembering that Mewtwo wasn't released yet lol. But these looked pretty good to me so I didn't change it.

You'll see I didn't label the tiers with names, just numbers. I did that because I feel the traditional distinction of "high, middle, low" really doesn't do a lot of the characters in tiers 4 and 5 (and even a lot in 3) justice. Most of them have a shot at doing well against the tiers above them. From what I can tell, the characters lower in my list simply have to work harder to achieve their game plan and struggle more against the upper tiers' tools. Of course, the tier 1 and 2 characters have to work hard as well if they want to win; AFAIK there are no "easy win" strategies in Smash 4, at least none like Brawl Dedede's chaingrabs.

Spoiler: Tier 1

: Not much needs to be said about Sheik that hasn't already been brought up. She has excellent mobility, a great projectile (and grenades), crazy damage racking, fast attacks, and a difficult-to-intercept recovery. She might not remain number 1 but I wouldn't be surprised if she stays there.

: The little chimp has a lot of things going for him. Solid kill power in his aerials, deceptive range, one of the greatest set-up throws in the game, and what is probably the best of the command grabs. He has a decent stage control tool in bananas too. His weaknesses are mainly a fairly straightforward game plan and relatively rigid recovery. I expect him to drop a little in viability as time goes on but not too much, his tools are just too solid for that.

: I'll be honest, from my experience with the demo I wasn't very impressed with Pikachu, mainly because his kill moves are kind of hard to land. However, recent experience with him has really impressed me, and I feel he's definitely one of the best in the game. He's small, mobile, and has extremely quick attacks. The kill power that I thought was an issue initially... really isn't. And against the characters he can't kill easily he can just gimp them. Definitely a threat.

: Fast ground speed is really good in this game. I don't remember it being as potent in Brawl, but whatever is the case it's very potent now. Sonic's obviously the fastest thing in the game which alone is a massive advantage. His mixups from neutral are without peer and his throws are all good. Add on to that his buffed range and generally better normals and he's an absurd threat.

: The dino's a zippy little dude with big hitboxes and impressive range. His eggs explode when they reach the end of their arc which means you can't always just avoid them and shielding them is the best option... which just opens the door for Yoshi to get in your face. He has minor problems dealing with projectile pressure but he can pressure a lot of other characters himself. His recovery is another sore point but at least gives good distance. He could fall as time progresses but he'll still be dangerous.

: Nothing about Ness's attributes makes me think "wow, this is a great character!" His attacks, on the other hand, are nothing to shake at. His smashes were all buffed from Brawl, as were his dash attack and FAir. Actually, all of his aerials are scary. NAir lasts for forever, BAir and UAir kill, and DAir spikes. And who can mention Ness without bringing up his BThrow? With weaker DI and rage, it's probably the most ridiculous kill move in the game. If forced to use Up-B, his recovery is poor, but skilled Ness players will conserve their second jump to give them the best chance of recovering. I really don't know where he'll end up in the long run but right now, Ness is really good.

: I haven't fought a huge number of Zero Suit Samus users, but a couple have really challenged me. Her paralyzer is a scary projectile that really limits options because if you get hit, you're at her mercy. She also has great range and much more power that one would expect. Flip Jump is also stupid (especially the invincibility in the beginning). She does have a slightly hard time against shields, and her paralyzer probably isn't quite as potent on non-omega stages (which unfortunately is where most of my experience is from). But I really don't think she's worse than top 10 and probably belongs in the top 5. Sakurai said she was buffed from Brawl and, I think overall, that is accurate.

: I wanted to like Rosalina as a character and use her but that just didn't work out. Anyway, one of my first challenging experiences on For Glory was against a reasonably skilled Rosalina player who showed me what could be done by zoning with Luma. Now I personally feel that Luma should be used as a way to enhance Rosalina's attacks and not as the main strategy (since Luma is so vulnerable). But Luma offers an added degree of safety that no other character has. Even without Luma, Rosalina's hitboxes are quite massive and disjointed which can keep her relatively safe until Luma respawns. She's not as good as the hype leader her out to be but skilled R&L players won't give their opponents many openings.

: Placing Falcon here might be a bit of bias on my end; the characters I play don't seem to deal well with his speed, range and power. Regardless, I feel like he might be one of the best in the game. I already mentioned that fast ground speed is really good in this game, and, buffs excluded, he's second only to the hedgehog. His throws lead to potent attack strings, and he has kill confirms with falling UAir into Knee (which is nothing to scoff at). His range is also exceptional (like what is the hitbox on the end of the rapid jab honestly and FSmash is stupid too). Plus his UTilt works like Samus's wishes it did. He also doesn't get abused by stupid things like chaingrabs anymore. I dunno, he just feels like a fantastic character.

: I don't totally get the Fox hype. But I admit that he's effective at racking damage, forcing approaches, and linking attacks (probably one of the best in that regard). My opinion of him probably isn't as high as it should be since he seems to require smart, quick inputs to be totally effective and wi-fi really isn't the best place to show those off. I'm kind of putting him here because so many people think he's the best thing since bread bird and, while I don't completely agree, he feels generally superior to the characters he's above.

Spoiler: Tier 2

: I think they went a little overboard with the implementation of Aura this go around. Having rage further boost Lucario when his percent gets high is frustrating, too. Even with his absurd power cap, I don't think Lucario is overwhelming in general. His attacks seem kind of slow and they really don't have that great range (even if they are mostly disjointed). He struggles a lot against characters that can ignore/reflect/absorb Aura Sphere and Force Palm, his two greatest spacing tools. He's another character I think will drop as people figure out his weaknesses.

: Shulk has two strengths: his range and his Monado Arts. I could be wrong but he seems to have the highest range on his moves on average out of all the characters, which is sometimes compensated by extremely direct attack angles (FSmash, UAir). Without Monado Arts, his specs are pretty mediocre. But the ability to change what he's good at on a whim is amazing. Speed Shulk in particular is scary for rushdown, and even with the offensive losses in Shield he can still pose a threat thanks to rage. He has to commit a lot to his options but I think that good Shulks will be able to work around this and change their Arts to match the scenario. He seems hard to master but whoever does will gain great rewards.

: Frog got nerfed the worst out of all the characters in 1.0.4 but he's still very viable with some of the best mobility specs in the game (he's better than Sheik in every way). Water Shuriken is still a fantastic projectile, especially when fully charged because it's large, slow-moving, multi-hitting, and transcendent priority. Substitute, while unreliable, is also especially strong (the strongest of the normal counters AFAIK, Vision might beat it). His biggest weakness is his odd attack angles which can make hitting the opponent difficult. But he's still a threat to watch out for and I don't think that'll change much.

: Wario has a bunch of weird attributes. He's quite heavy but has a small frame. His Up-B isn't very good for recovering but his Side-B is. And, just like in Brawl, his greatest asset is his aerial mobility. He lost the ability to airdodge safely into the ground and to SHAC DAir, but gained a better dash attack, bike, and Waft (mainly by virtue of rage). Time will tell if his weaving ability will keep him a threat or if people will learn to work around it, but I can't seem him falling too much. His tools are just too solid.

: I have to start the blue bomber's comments by saying that Sakurai did a really good job of capturing the character's original games. If only he would do that with others (SAMUS). Anyway, Mega Man is really good. He plays differently from a lot of characters, but I feel pretty confident that he's the best mid-range zoner in the game. Pellets cancel out most any other standard projectiles (including ones of his own that are reflected), Metal Blades interrupt so much, and his disjointed FAir and BAir are extremely good for spacing. His UTilt is also one of the most ridiculous moves in the game, hitting on frame six and killing anywhere from 80%-100% depending on the character and rage. I could honestly see him going up to top 10 in the future because he's just so good at disrupting other characters.

: We're already at the third third-party character? Yep, all of them are quite viable. Pac-Man has a unique moveset that includes an absurd way to disrupt attacks, a move that can become one of 8 projectiles, and a stage control tool that forces the opponent to jump. He struggles a little to kill but the fact that he almost never has to approach is definitely something in his favor. His normals link well to rack damage and his recovery is, generally, surprisingly safe. No real weaknesses but no particular strengths, either, besides a very effective keep-out game.

: I've been starting to see a lot more of the king of second bananas on Wi-Fi lately, probably because Boss has been putting in work with him. The 1.0.4 patch fixed a few issues he had, the biggest buff being a boost to his FSmash's power. His FAir got a hitbox size increase, as well. His DThrow is likely the best for follow-ups in the game (Diddy's is a close second) and his fireballs, while simple do a good job at pressuring opponents into shield where they can be grabbed. He continues to have trouble approaching and suffers from a slightly predictable recovery, but overall Smash 4 and its mechanics have been good to Luigi.

: For a long time I was in denial about having trouble fighting Mario. But, with a bit of enlightening from this and other threads, I've come to realize that Mario is actually pretty good at putting pressure on his opponents. His attacks come out fast and end fast (for the most part) and he got a significant air speed buff, at least in comparison to the rest of the cast. While I could see him dropping in the future because of poor range (Luigi suffers similarly), he does what he does well; that is, he catches opponents in strings that hopefully will lead into a smash or a gimp.

: The differences between these two are so minute that there's no point in separating them, IMO, although Pit is pretty empirically the superior of the two. He got a pretty impressive range increase from Brawl and gained a fantastic new punish in Upperdash Arm (which, I'd like to point out, is basically the same as Raptor Boost, except it has super armor, deflects projectiles, and doesn't put Pit into special fall. Bias much?). As has been stated in the thread, nothing about him particularly stands out, but that alone is a pretty big deal, because it means that he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses either. Both Pits are likely to do well in tournament but seem more or less outclassed by the higher-tiered characters.

: Along with Shulk, the character that got the most significant buffs from the 1.0.4 patch. He was far from unplayable before, but now his attack speed coupled with his range and power is just disgusting. Ike also received much from his customs. They open up new options for him with gimping (Tempest), beating projectiles (Close Combat), and setting up for kills (Paralyzing Counter). He remains vulnerable to juggles but a good Ike will know how to work around that and to use his immense range to his advantage. I think it's only a matter of time before one or more Ikes start taking tournaments by storm.

Spoiler: Tier 3

: I will admit that I am unfamiliar with the competitive prospects of the Miis, so where I'm placing them has a lot to do with hearsay and a little to do with my own, slight testing of them. As far as the Brawler goes, he's the Mii with the playstyle that best fits my own. Reasonable ground speed, excellent air speed (surprisingly the best in the game) and quick attacks mesh well together. Feint Jump is a cool mobility special move and Helicopter Kick is just great. As long as the Miis' custom options are available I can see the Brawler doing well (and even if they're not allowed, he'll probably still be usable).

: Don't have too much experience against Peach, but she seems slightly more effective than in Brawl. Her kill moves feel marginally more effective and I believe she now has a functional airdodge. Turnip pulling being slower is unfortunate but I don't think it should slow her down too much. I don't really use her so I can't say exactly how the new game works out for her but from what I hear she likes it. Oh yeah, her Up-B is much, much safer than it looks at first glance. The parasol is a massive protective hitbox.

: ROB wants to be a standard spacing character but he lacks the close quarters moves to be amazing at it. So he has to rely a lot on his projectiles which, to be fair, do a decent enough job. His aerials seem buffed overall from Brawl (with the one exception that BAir no longer has a hitbox on his body) which is nice, but his recovery is worse. He has a hard time with being juggled and the new game mechanics really don't help with that. He does have what is likely the second most reliable kill throw after Ness's BThrow, which is something to note when fighting him, especially if you're a light character.

: Ah, the Animal Crossing Avatar. I was really hyped when I heard he was going to be in Smash 4 and made it a point to main him. Fortunately for me, the demo had him as one of the five playable characters, and I haven't really looked back. For the most part, he's a solid character. Lloid Rocket does a fair job at helping Villager approach, which is a good thing, since his mobility is quite poor. A lot of his moves are pretty gimmicky but are effective at shutting characters down if used right. His primary weaknesses are a terrible grab (though with a kill through to compensate), somewhat limited range, and general vulnerability to reflectors. Likely a viable character but will struggle against the more mobile ones.

: Coming from her stint in Brawl as a low tier, Jigglypuff had a lot to prove. And, honestly, I think she's done a pretty good job at that so far. Rest is easier to land now and kills better, she gained a crazy kill aerial in BAir, and can do more Wall-of-Pain work thanks to the slightly increased hitstun. I've fought a handful of Puff users that gave me decent trouble. Going from what others have said, she seems to require dedication to use her to her highest potential, primarily knowing when to fake out an approach and when to actually go in. Her light weight is a detriment, but it shouldn't hold her back too much.

: Robin's a bit of a breath of fresh air as far as sword users go, since he also has projectiles to enhance his spacing/pressure game. In a sense that makes him considerably scarier than characters like Shulk or Ike because in most cases he doesn't have to approach. His projectiles also give him immense shield pressure (I really think it's a good thing that Arcfire and Arcthunder have limited uses, they're very good). The Levin Sword/Bronze Sword dichotomy give him a unique way to mix up the power of his sword attacks; Levin to kill/rack damage, Bronze to combo. As far as I can tell his only real weaknesses are terrible ground mobility, the (temporarily) limited uses of his powerful attacks, and susceptibility to juggles.

: Remember when we thought the ESRB link couldn't be real because it had the Duck Hunt dog as a character? Well, he's in the game and he plays pretty uniquely. The control he has over his projectiles even after they're sent off make them dynamic and hard to adapt/react to. There's also a lot more disjoint on the character's attacks than I would expect. Not having played many Duck Hunt mains, I'm not entirely sure what the character's particular strengths and weaknesses are. I guess the main one I can see is that, projectile game notwithstanding, his game plan seems pretty one-dimensional (I could be totally wrong, though). The traps he can create with those projectiles make this much less of an issue. His recovery is also very one-dimensional and easy to intercept if caught in time, lacking a hitbox and being unable to be interrupted.

: DK always bugged me in Brawl because it felt like he did everything Bowser did but better. The two are more distinct in Smash 4 but I still think DK is the better heavy and superior character. Unlike Bowser, who doesn't seem to have any combo potential aside from his jab, DK has a tripping DTilt and an UTilt that leads into other things. As a whole his playstyle seems to flow an lot better and without much sacrifice of power or weight. He's also got quite a few moves that deal extrs shield damage, which can give him an opening to pound the opponent with his powerful attacks.

: Probably one of the more interesting characters, at least in terms of stage control and zoning options. Gunners feel like a more mobile Samus but more projectile-based. Her customs are primarily based off of those of other characters, which opens up interesting options. Fighting a character that doesn't have projectiles? Use bombs (and why do Gunner's explode on contact with an enemy but Samus's don't???). Fighting a mobile character that missiles aren't great against? Use Flame Pillar. Much like Brawler I am not well-versed in what high-level Gunner play looks like, but I see a lot of potential in the character. The spacing ability in FAir and UAir is immense and grenades are such a good stage control tool.

: Marth has always been a character that rewards good master of the basics. He has a fairly safe recovery, excellent disjoints, and very potent power on his tippered attacks (as well as a grab range that makes no sense, at least Zelda and Palutena are magical). In the last two games he has been just below top tier because his simple tools were incredibly effective. In a sense, they still are. Apparently his attacks flow worse than in previous games (I'm not a Marth main and am actually terrible with the character so I'm going by what Shaya and Emblem Lord say) and his old mainstay of fast falling his aerials to get followups doesn't work anymore, but it's hard to argue with perfectly spaced attacks that can kill extremely early. The real reason Marth just isn't as effective anymore is because other swordsmen, mainly Shulk and Ike, have greater range and usually have better options at close range.

: Bowser's general redesign was quite exciting. While he wasn't actually on the slow side in Brawl (a common misperception) his massive frame and telegraphed recovery made him an easy target for juggles and gimps. He still has those problems but is better because he got a general power boost. His formerly useless DAir has become a risky but powerful attack, Flying Slam kills sooner, and his new FSmash kills really early if it can be landed. Being the heaviest character, he also benefits quite a bit from rage. His size is still his greatest detriment (it always is in Smash) as he can't use his increased mobility to move fluidly to avoid attacks. Definitely dangerous and a force to be respected, but not the juggernaut he was made out to be soon after release.

Spoiler: Tier 4

: Okay, now we're getting to the characters that I haven't seen a lot of love toward. A good number of them seem to have considerable potential but no one notable (or very few notable people) are using them. In Palutena's case, a lot of her potential lies in her custom specials, which are rather rudely being excluded when she's usually allowed to be used. The two moves that would probably make the biggest splash are Lightweight, which "turns her into Sonic for 10 seconds," and Super Speed, which functions a lot like Spin Dash and allows for some devastating combos. I honestly never understood the "Palutena is bottom tier" camp because her movement specs are inherently good, she has two attacks that literally beat out almost everything else as an simple property, and she has a killer grab game. She could easily be higher on the list if she gets good rep by someone skilled with her and/or customs are allowed. Since hers are unlocked from the beginning and they're her design's whole schtick, it seems stupid to bar them off. And if you're allowing hers, you might as well allow all other customs, too. *hint, hint*

: Falco got changed pretty significantly from Brawl. I was discussing with one of my friends about how they changed him and they basically took away most of what made Falco good in Brawl: his restrictive laser game, chaingrab, DACUS, and quick spike. Lasers obviously still exist but they're nowhere near as spammable (in a lot of ways they function as an interrupter similar to Villager's slingshots only with more priority, range, and commitment), and his DAir is still potent but much slower (most meteors are strong in this game though). What they kept--and in a lot of ways I feel like they buffed--was his CQC game. Falco's jumps remain the best in the game, and they allow for followups from aerial launches that other characters can only dream about. If Falco gets his opponent into the air at high percents (which isn't hard to do), they're probably dead between BAir, UAir, and, if customs are enabled, Reflector Void. In general he has good damage off of his attacks and they have deceptive range. He also has a solid gimping game (FAir is now good for something). His biggest weaknesses seem to be a somewhat telegraphed recovery, low weight, and mediocre horizontal mobility. I don't see anywhere for Falco to go but up ("I prefer the air" pun not intended). I think I've seen a tier list that placed Palutena and Falco as bottom two. My response to whoever made the list would be something along the lines of "bro do you even smash."

: Going to try to stop ranting/cut down on the text for the next few characters. I don't remember Link's range in Brawl being as impressive as it is in Smash 4. Honestly, it feels like he can shut down almost any approach by jabbing or FTilting. His moves also gained the kill power that they so sorely lacked in Brawl (probably wrong, but I could swear Toon Link was stronger than him. At the very least, Link's USmash was pathetic). His mobility really isn't great but with such great spacing tools it usually doesn't have to be. Link feels kind of like a heavy character that also has the ability to zone with projectiles. Aside from slow attack speed and a straightforward (but not necessarily easy to gimp) recovery his weaknesses don't feel very overwhelming.

: Not much to say about Lucina, since her tools are identical to Marth's, just with less reward. That's her biggest problem, IMO. Her moves are good but there are no gimmicks to them and she doesn't get the rewards for spacing that Marth does. The one thing to say about her is that you can't intentionally weaken her effectiveness by getting too close to her unlike Marth. If she hits you, she hits you.

: So I never bought into the "Olimar sucks now" camp that permeated the Smash community during the 3DS days. I can attribute some of that to never fully learning how to fight him in Brawl, but a character that small with an almost entirely (significantly) disjointed moveset. Now, his moves have been toned down from Brawl, and not being able to use more than 3 Pikmin at a time allows some characters to get rid of them better. But he seems one of the more frustrating characters to face, and I agree with Shaya that he could easily be a high tier threat given enough time/skilled enough players (here's looking at you, Dabuz/Myran). His attacks sans Pikmin seem to have been improved and his recovery is no longer a free gimp sample.

: Charizard's kind of cool. More mobile than Ganon and Dedede (actually the fastest on the ground out of all of them) and has several muscly specials that have super/heavy armor, enabling him to give the middle finger to a lot of other attacks. I'd argue his Flamethrower is better than Bowser's Fire Breath because it's more aimable, too. His jab is pretty dang good (at least in range) and he has a bunch of partial body invincibility on his attacks, especially on his wings and tail (much of which are intangible in normal gameplay). But even with the less substantial wings and tail, he seems to have the worst hurtbox in the game. He doesn't have any real safe approaches and struggles to get out of a disadvantaged state. Charizard marks the point on the list where the characters start to have... real flaws that hold them back.

: I've wanted Bowser Jr. in Smash for a long time, so when I learned that his moveset didn't actively incorporate his Shadow Mario guise. It wasn't really a practical option, though, given that the Koopalings are his alts, and since Shadow Mario and the Magic Brush made it in as his Final Smash, I can't complain and have come to love the character's actual implementation. Oh, competitive thoughts? Well, Bowser Jr's moveset is entirely disjointed, which is never a bad thing. Unfortunately I feel like his efficacy is hampered by his poor ground speed and considerable lack of safety on shields. His rather... round hurbox also holds him back, I feel. In his defense, he has some of the most interesting stage control tools in Down- and Up-B, and Clown Kart Dash his unique among attacks of its sort in that it can be cancelled into a strong attack, although it has this versatility in exchange for being unable to shield out of it.

: In this iteration, I no longer feel that Toon Link is the superior incarnation of Link. He might end up proving me wrong, but with my current standpoint, even if he is better, it's not a night-and-day comparison like it was in Brawl. This time around, it feels like Toon Link sacrifices power and range for speed. Speed (movement as well as in attacks) is a critically important attribute, but so is range, and I haven't felt that Toon Link's superiority in agility to his more realistic counterpart makes him definitively better. If I'm going to be honest, Toon Link has simply impressed me less than normal Link. He's less dangerous in general and doesn't really have an edge in recovery. I may be tainted by Wi-fi experiences against normal Link; if someone can prove me wrong, do so.

: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. The devs took note of Meta Knight's unequivocal frame data superiority, as well as his general range/priority superiority, and toned him down quite a bit. I mean, when the game was first released, the tip of his sword simply didn't have a hitbox. That has since been rectified for several of his attacks but he doesn't have nearly the reach that Brawl veterans may have been expecting. I don't think it's right to write him off just yet, however. His offstage game is still excellent, as is his recovery, and he has a move that is quite similar in power and function to Farore's Wind (ergo, a potent punishes). Aside from his specials his moveset is pretty bland though.

: For a perfect character, Dedede sure has a lot of flaws. The biggest one is slow attack speed, the second being terrible movement. Ganon is worse overall, but Dedede has the worst airspeed in the game. Though somewhat remedied by his multiple jumps (which give him a slight edge in avoiding landing traps when compared to other heavies), it also makes it hard to escape aerial strings, probably moreso than any other character when coupled with his massive frame. He no longer has his cheese that was so basic to him in Brawl but did retain his general tools of massive, lasting hitboxes to keep people out (Dedede's UAir is probably my favorite one in the game; many others have more practical uses but a move that beats what I think is every DAir in a head-to-head interaction is just fantastic). From my experience using him I agree with his dedicated mains: he'll beat some characters handily but lose to a lot just as badly.

Spoiler: Tier 5

: Just by virtue of how he worked in Brawl, Ganon benefited among the most from the shift to Smash 4's mechanics. Punishing poor airdodging? Easier than ever! Recovery? Can't be ledgehogged anymore! Need to kill really early? Rage is your thing! That's to say nothing of his general crappy moveset fixes (Wizard's Foot now actually covers his FOOT, Up-B is no longer punishable ON HIT, DSmash links slightly better although not a move you should be using often, FAir actually autocancels sometimes). He still has his problems, particularly in mobility, recovery, and slow attack speed, but his options are safer in Smash 4 overall. He also benefits from the inclusion of customs. Think Brawl Ganon but with a slightly more functional moveset.

: Remember how I mentioned that I probably underrate this guy? Yeah, that's why he's down here. I honestly don't think he's a bad character. His mobility ranges from average to good, his attacks are entirely disjointed, and his recovery is phenomenal. So why is he down near the bottom? Simply put, Game & Watch needs to work hard to win most matches. He doesn't have crazy attack speed, strong kill power, high damage output, a powerful combo game, or a good neutral projectile. Most of his attacks are unsafe on shield, which makes approaching difficult, which isn't helped by the high lag on most of his aerials. He also doesn't have any solid kill setups so he ends up fishing for a kill move or a lucky gimp to end matches. I don't think he's an inherently flawed character; the only one of his attributes that's flat-out bad is his weight. Almost everything he has seems to hover around average, and so I feel that most of his MUs will be close to even. If there is a flaw in his design, I'd say that it's an intended focus on attacks that are either unpredictable (Judge) or niche in usage (Oil Panic). They can certainly turn a match around (and Oil Panic is critical versus a few characters) but for the most part they're gimmicks.

: The more I play against Kirby, the more I feel like there's some untapped potential in his game. His aerial all gave very low landing lag and they tend to lead into a few more hits on the ground. Basically, Kirby has a decent combo game. His multiple jumps give him an edge at gimping as well. Unfortunately, his range isn't phenomenal and it's relatively easy to keep him out, since he doesn't have a projectile. Similar to Game & Watch, little about him seems bad, but he doesn't have a whole lot that's good either, outside of some combos and a wicked punish game in Stone and Hammer Flip. They probably tried to differentiate him and Jigglypuff and ended up saddling him with the more mediocre moveset and attributes.

: To Doc's credit, he's the least similar of the clones. He actually has a handful of distinct attacks and plays a little differently than his civilian counterpart. Unfortunately, I don't think those differences lend themselves to many situations where using Doc over Mario is warranted. He exchanges mobility and recovery for slightly higher damage output and more plentiful kill moves. That would be fine and dandy and all if another Mario clone didn't already exist who is also less mobile but more given to damaging attacks. I know it's not really fair to compare Doc with Luigi because the latter's moveset is so different, but I feel that Luigi does the "like Mario but less agile and more powerful" schtick better. Doc does retain Mario's generally fast attack speed, but when your range and mobility are so poor it kind of makes it hard to get in to do anything with those fast attacks. I mean, Mario's only one of two characters that has multiple clones, the other being Marty. But he only has one clone in this game because they didn't bring back Roy (oh wait, they did ).

: Little Mac is just a little too specialized, IMO. His ground game is phenomenal, likely one of the best in the game. But that's the problem: I don't think it IS strictly the best. Sure, his ground speed outpaces almost everybody, his jab is frame 1, his Dash Attack has good range, FTilt is probably the best poking tool, his smash attacks have super armor, and he has an option to jump over low projectiles. However, his grab game isn't great, and being more or less restricted to the ground really limits his options to approach and to follow up. He has the power of a heavy but with none of the survivability that makes them scary, instead opting for sheer speed (which when combined with his strength is pretty frightening). He just feels too much like a one-trick pony and gets invalidated by stage counterpicks too drastically for me to consider him good. I think that as people learn how he functions (and how there's almost never a reason to not try and gimp him) that he'll drop in effectiveness.

: When I heard that the devs felt that Samus was the strongest character from there testing, I was a little amused. I mean, I thought they were almost certainly wrong, but at the very least I hoped she'd feel more effective than in Brawl. There are a few improvements here and there, but they're nowhere near enough to put her to be anywhere near the top. Honestly, I'm just disappointed that they took Bowser and overhauled him but not Samus. The scariest aspect about her is Charge Shot, but that alone can't make a character effective. There are just too many flaws in her moveset that need to be rectified before she becomes a serious competitor. I'm also upset that they didn't take into account more of her impressive arsenal of weapons from her own games when making her customs, but that's not really a competitive thought.

: Same disclaimer for the Swordfighter as for the other Miis: I don't have much experience using or fighting them. His normals are mostly unremarkable and overly laggy for what they do, but UAir deals ridiculous damage and DAir is much like Kirby's. There is some potential in his specials, though. Shuriken of Light ought to be explored more, as it's a projectile that does more damage at range (quite unique). Chakram can either be used as a distant pressure tool or a close-range interrupter. Reversal Slash is probably his biggest niche over the game's other sword users. Time will tell if it's enough to make him usable, but as it stands, Swordfighter is pretty mediocre.

: I think Zelda's moveset has a bit of what Ganon's has. A lot of her moves aren't necessarily bad, and in a vacuum are actually quite good (DTilt comes to mind, and sweetspotted lightning kicks are brutal). But when they're all put together on one character, you have a problem. Zelda isn't particularly mobile and her moveset really allows her no way to approach. She has plenty of good tools to keep people out and to reset to neutral, but if she ever gets behind, it's going to be an absurdly uphill battle for her to get back on top. There are plenty of minor changes to her moveset that, though they wouldn't make her anywhere close to top tier, would help her game a lot.

: Wii Fit Trainer is... pretty clearly not designed with singles in mind. So many of her moves hit behind her and can offer some added protection from the back. Unfortunately for her, characters are generally not in front of and behind you at the same time in a one-on-one. Those that actually have different effects depending on which side hits them (like FTilt/FAir) are good enough gimmicks, but most of her moveset would be better served by her leaning into give her better reach when she attacks or something. As is also commonly noted, a good number of her attacks fail to hit shorter opponents, even if they're just standing there. In the character's defense, her attacks deal reasonable damage and her customs open up a lot of options for her. But I don't think they're really enough to redeem her usually ineffective normals and poor (horizontal) range.

I may go back and write up a little more on some of the characters with shorter paragraphs but as it stands the whole thing is basically a TL;DR post and that would just make it worse. Like, Falco has the longest write-up. I don't even use Falco. Why is his the longest? No idea.

A few thoughts while completing the character write-ups:
- I probably put too much value on disjoint and range
- For the most part I take in the popular opinion regarding character placement (see Fox and my changed opinion of the Mario Bros/Ness)
- I like to see results before I rank a character highly (probably why Olimar is so low down)
- Most characters shouldn't and can't be played like their previous incarnations, either because of move changes or because of universal changes to the game's engine.
- Movement speed is critical, fast attack speed is great, zoning abilities are useful but not necessarily game-winning.
- I need to stop basing my opinions soly on Wi-Fi experience even though I am generally aware of its limitations and what it enhances/weakens (read: I need to make more of an effort to attend IRL events so instead of just pretending to know what I'm talking about I can REALLY know what I'm talking about).

Well, there you have it, my magnum opus for the thread. Read it, agree with it, disagree with it, bash my opinions in it, question me about it. It's out in the public now.

Guys, calling your tier speculation post a 'Magnus Opus', and essentially saying "f da haters" at the end isn't supposed to be what this thread is about. You spoke a lot about what your impressions of the characters are, but you also framed the whole post is a strange way.

I hope this thread doesn't get derailed into "rate my tier list", and your post seems to intend to do just that. It makes checking in on this thread pointless for a good day, which is bad for this forum.

 

[ZHMT]

I don't understand, what is the point of contention here? Should I have been more clear? It's a one hour video, of course i'll post it more than once.

Wario's an extremely agile heavyweight with a KO move that can literally win matches at absurdly low %. Gluttony is a strong player, but he makes a tons of mistakes (he probably loses 40-50% as a result of whiffed Smash attacks) and yet he lands the waft once and KOes at absurdly low % (he can even combo into it). All of those punishes feel inconsequential in retrospect. I thought the Yoshi clip perfectly demonstrated that.



Since when has Rest been anything other than a high risk / high reward move? The waft is a low risk high reward move, they're not even in the same league.

High risk/high reward moves can still be amazing. Waft is weaker and relies on a timer. Rest does not. Plus I don't see where the risk is outside of them having a fast respawn and hitting you which is only applicable if its not last stock.

You can combo into the move, and its far easier to use based on reaction time alone. The risk isn't a factor when your opponent can't avoid the move beccause they got hit by a move that has low risk right before it and are in hitstun. Also I'm talking about true combos, not setups or baits, things that will work on everybody outside of TAS-like DI.

If you miss with the move, sure, you get punished hard. The thing is if you were able to reduce the risk, even a little, the move would be completely busted. What if she could mash to wake up faster or jump cancel the sleep? Exactly. That's silly.

Anyway, you can use it defensively when you react to a roll, or if they misspace a move on your shield, we all know this. However due to how rage effects moves, there are large windows where you can uair or uptilt characters into it and kill them outright. Not to mention fair combos into it untiil a very high percent. In Brawl the risk was high because the hitbox was smaller and you were able to air dodge after 13 frames of stun.

 

[Kofu]

Guys, calling your tier speculation post a 'Magnus Opus', and essentially saying "f da haters" at the end isn't supposed to be what this thread is about. You spoke a lot about what your impressions of the characters are, but you also framed the whole post is a strange way.

I hope this thread doesn't get derailed into "rate my tier list", and your post seems to intend to do just that. It makes checking in on this thread pointless for a good day, which is bad for this forum.

How am I saying "f da haters?" I really don't get that.

It's only my magnum opus because I put a lot of work into it. But you do have a point about the "rate my tier list" part. I can remove it if necessary. I'll still post in here because my opinions are constantly evolving.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Dedede below Zelda, Ganon, WFT, Kirby? What is this?

Not to mention Falco being RIGHT ABOVE D3 at the barrel's bottom. He's definitely better than that. Sheesh.

Slightly unrelated, but I hate the D3 v. Megaman MU. I'm beginning to think MM is a hard counter, somewhere in the 7:3 range (maybe 8:2, depending). Well-spaced lemons and other various sundry projectiles stonewall D3 so much that it can be difficult to find gaps between. D3 doesn't have the mobility to easily get around that bull****, either.

Probably one of the most slanted MUs I've seen/experienced in this game so far, personally.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Z'zgashi]

Maaaan, everyone putting Meta Knight so low, character is still super good and has some of the best aerial punishes and kills in the entire game, ESPECIALLY on stages with platforms. Whats that? You just did a spot dodge on a platform next to my Meta Knight or I read an air dodge? Let me just uair/ledge drop uair and string 2-3 more jumping uairs, folow it up with an up b, and either get a free 30-40% or kill you at 40+%

 

[Smooth Criminal]

MK's Shuttle Loop is still dirty, lol. It's hilarious killing characters off the top with it at relatively low percentages.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Goodstyle_4]

High risk/high reward moves can still be amazing. Waft is weaker and relies on a timer. Rest does not. Plus I don't see where the risk is outside of them having a fast respawn and hitting you which is only applicable if its not last stock.

You can combo into the move, and its far easier to use based on reaction time alone. The risk isn't a factor when your opponent can't avoid the move beccause they got hit by a move that has low risk right before it and are in hitstun. Also I'm talking about true combos, not setups or baits, things that will work on everybody outside of TAS-like DI.

If you miss with the move, sure, you get punished hard. The thing is if you were able to reduce the risk, even a little, the move would be completely busted. What if she could mash to wake up faster or jump cancel the sleep? Exactly. That's silly.

Anyway, you can use it defensively when you react to a roll, or if they misspace a move on your shield, we all know this. However due to how rage effects moves, there are large windows where you can uair or uptilt characters into it and kill them outright. Not to mention fair combos into it untiil a very high percent. In Brawl the risk was high because the hitbox was smaller and you were able to air dodge after 13 frames of stun.

You do realize that most of a match is fought outside the last stock right? Wanna see an example of what can happen to Jigglypuff if it kills someone with Rest anywhere but the final stock?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdJAjufBQNQ#t=2261

Downplay this if you want, but that's kind of a huge deal if a move can be an enormous detriminent to you for most of the match.

The Waft is a much more versatile and well rounded attack. Only takes 55 seconds of charge to get it to kill, you can combo into the Waft too (late nair and dair set ups) and far more consistently because it has more range than the Rest attack (which is sad because the Waft has pretty bad range in general). Sure, Rest has some guaranteed set ups, but even then Jigglypuff can miss a lot do to tricks in DI and variable character weights. If Jiggs misses Rest, that's pretty much good game for the Jigglypuff player, if Wario misses a Waft he just gained some elevation.

No matter how you look at it, the most punishable attack in the game that isn't a reliable move to use unless you're on the final stock is never going to be as good as a move as the Waft. It's just way more consistent.

 

[meleebrawler]

My only real gripe with @ Kofu 's list is how he explains
Samus's spot on the list, the only actual gameplay
aspect he mentions is how her game is based around Charge
Shot and then he just bemoans how Samus is not as
good as the developers made her out to be and
how they didn't give her a more fanservicey (not the sexual kind)
moveset.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo Samus is the worst character in the game. Zelda still has an okay zoning game with a couple safe melee options (neither of which Samus has) and also has that teleport which kills stupidly early. WFT, while her hitboxes are basically toothpicks, has mobility, some zoning options, and has some safe on shield mix ups as well as her fair true comboing into everything if you catch people on the ground with the back of it, allowing for kill confirm punishes with fair > dsmash/fsmash.

 

[meleebrawler]

Did you elaborate your thoughts of Samus earlier on?
Because right now I see people saying Samus is
bad without any real justification.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I did like 100 pages ago, typed up an essay on why I thought she was lackluster. Dont feel like going into it again cuz Im leaving in like 10 mins and mostly cuz Im lazy lol.

EDIT: Did a quick thread search and found it, its here: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-189#post-18140122

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Samus worse than Mii Swordfighter?