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Bolded are 100% incorrect
The only thing you mentioned that would threatened breaking a shield is dair but dair is not nearly as safe to use as his other moves. His command grab is better at getting through shields but you can't dash grab with it which makes it a lot worse off . Also I forgot down b but that move is also not as safe either.Yoshi laughs at shields. Between being able to mix up retreating nair, crossup nair, dair, Egg Lay and even Yolo downB against shields Yoshi gets to choose between either completely crippling it or just bypass it completely. And those are just his aerial options and don't include stuff like jab, egg toss or ftilt.
?terrible aerials? uair is a great juggling tool, fair is a phenomenal edgeguarding tool, bair is a strong kill move, and dair is just ****. and he has multiple jumps, super armor on up b, and phenomenal horizontal recovery.
The problem with those aerials is that none of them are really useful in a neutral or negative state. Sure Charizard is good when he has the advantage, but his tools to get into an advantageous state are unreliable. His approach options are all pretty unsafe, and it can be really tough to land hits on characters like Pika and Sheik without making hard reads.
Unless my circle pad is wearing out which it shouldn't since I'm not mashing the poor thing, sometimes movement with faster characters feels jerky and uncontrolled especially when lag is involved.
I'm very glad you got to change your mind on Wario no one stops the WAAAAH
Thanks for this! Hopefully Wario gets more representation in the future.
How unsafe, though? Due to his lack of a proper shieldgrab, Yoshi can't punish a lot of attacks other characters might be able to. I feel like Fox is at least safe enough to pressure Yoshi without worrying too much about serious retaliation, at worst he might eat grabs or jabs and neither is seriously damaging. Note that even if Yoshi is technically slightly safer than Fox on some of his moves (though I actually don't think he really is), Fox DOES have a standard grab so he can punish more easily, and his grab followups are a little better too.
Zelda's definitely also down there but I would put her at 6th worst personally. I feel like of the bad characters, she's the one who might have some room to grow, thanks to pivot grab trickery, teleport ledge cancels, and other weird tech.
I'm pretty sure Yoshi has one single safe move on shield and that's his fair. Nair certainly isn't safe because of its lingering hitbox, and to be able to do a retreating nair on shield you have to commit by running up-close first. Dair might be safe on shield but it's extremely risky to throw out in case the opponent baits it. Bair isn't safe.Nothing Fox does is safer than what Yoshi does, neither against Shield nor against Roll. Fox usmash is more powerful but much more impractical because it has a pretty small hitbox with a tiny sweetspot whereas Yoshi's usmash has a ridiculous hitbox that always hits hard.
That's the point, actually. Sheik's kit is built on strings and mix-ups of weaker individual moves. String together a throw into a few Fairs and you have something potent, for instance. But to get to that point, you have to actually practice those things against real people. New Sheik players will mess up those strings, but Sheik's improved recovery and high mobility ensure that she can escape punishment and return to neutral. It's a positive feedback loop for something that encourages the practice of a rather technical character.
Both of them have pretty terrible grab followups, to be honest. I'd say it's less of a problem for Yoshi who doesn't rely as much on his standard grab for establishing his strategy though, while in Fox's case, even though he has several strong KO moves, he lacks a really easy way to set up any of them. Yoshi's Egg landing traps are really safe and help him keep people in positions where his U-smash and U-air can be landed, or where he can edgeguard someone to death potentially. Fox only has a slightly above average Jab cancel that doesn't work on everyone, or otherwise relies on generic U-air -> U-smash frame traps that aren't always easy to position. Fox also generally has less favorable physics and aerials for edgeguarding.
You're not wrong. And beyond the normal sort of speed/range variance, we have characters like Rosalina who can make a lot of things unsafe (even on hit) with proper application of Luma, or Shulk who can make almost any of his own attacks safe with Buster.
More like Sheik is a low risk, low reward character. Robin, in comparison, has higher risk and rewards.That's the point, actually. Sheik's kit is built on strings and mix-ups of weaker individual moves. String together a throw into a few Fairs and you have something potent, for instance. But to get to that point, you have to actually practice those things against real people. New Sheik players will mess up those strings, but Sheik's improved recovery and high mobility ensure that she can escape punishment and return to neutral. It's a positive feedback loop for something that encourages the practice of a rather technical character.
Now picture a new Robin player. You miss that SH El-fire? Enjoy the people's fist.
Don't be taking lag into consideration. That is the last thing you take into account with balance.
Are 40%ish strings and her edge guarding capabilities low reward?
Sheik will rarely get a 40% string on a good player. She will have to hit him with like ten attacks
I don't think the breakdown is that neat.
This is primarily why. Sheik has high rewards for relatively low risk. Again, she has safe options, probably one of the top 3 projectiles in the game, and high mobility. To get to that 40% string point requires some practice, but those rewards are more easily reapable than with Robin. Robin requires just as much practice, but more conscientiousness in play, due to the mobility deficit. She also has high rewards, but they come with more caveats.
Wait, I think I have ecountered a Sheik that does F-air -> FF-> Dash -> F-air repeat. I think it has the potential for 40% string.... or it isn't? It was pre-patch, so I dunno if that is still applicable to this patch.
Oh. Okay. *cough*Denial*cough*
Nah, the jerky movements just gets amplified with lag, otherwise, it's just the circle pad being the circle pad.
Oh look, this reminds me of Ness's (optional, but safe start) PK Fire, grab, throw, Fair, Fair, Fair, and repeat except Sheik's is less annoying. Seriously, it's like every Ness knows this combo and it looks ridiculously easy to pull of in comparison to every other combos including Sheik's Fair repeat combo.
If she's getting that much off of you, I'm more inclined to say it's more poor DI usage than Sheik. As for edgeguarding, I'll reiterate. I don't find Sheik super threatening (as to be a cause for concern) with edgeguarding.
Segwaaayyy
Yeah, I feel like Ness is a good character and can hold his own against everyone, butbut he has glaring weaknesses, especially against characters who can go deep off stage, outzone, and outpace him.
Yeah, I realized that he's not as bad as I said he was when I was salty. Down-Throw to Side B isn't guaranteed on that many characters, it's jumpable. I know for a fact that it's guaranteed on Fox from 29%-49% and Falco from 30%-39%, and there are likely other characters where it is guaranteed as well.Anyway.
Game & Watch Meta.
G&W's up smash has invincibility from frame 4 behind his head. This is important.
Pivoting into reverse up smash, or just in general ensuring you're facing back against an opponent gives you a realllllllllly broken tool which only very low hitting moves (some dtilts) get through. I was playing with a Socal player @Eternal phoenix Fire (Zenas) and he was doing such trickery with Fox (he slides gracefully, and the sweet spot on usmash even hits from behind him, quite spooky) and after having him jab my shield from behind 1-2 as a shield trap, I just IDGAF'd an up smash OoS and then the notion hit me. pivot usmash during a dash or turn around shield (to face backwards) for reliably beating horizontal options as well.
G&W has a move that gives him practical entire body invincibility from frame 4, that can be done out of shield, and has short enough cool down that on shield-hit the move is safe (people get jabbed on most aggression attempts).
I also realised that I forgot you could side-b out of a dash and this hits low to the ground. Oh, when people don't tech dash attacks you can dash side-b for a similar reward at worse (although not as practical without precision) or something that can net you a lot of damage/kill (8 freezes, 6 electrocutes, most weak hits don't send very far at all, maintaining positional advantage).
Also as many people know, there's the whole down throw-> side-b combo which is guaranteed at low enough percent and will kill most above 10-15%.
I had really forgone it for a while although I knew it was real, but the 10-15% kill part wasn't really "there". I opted for nairs at low percent out of dthrow but at very low percent that actually doesn't work (lol), sometimes up smash is the same. But yeah, down throw -> side b into regrab on weaker hits is kinda-real and the reward is worth the attempt.
G&W for cheesy 0-20% hyper danger zone game against everyone, hooray. Unfortunately starting matches with this on a semi-consistent basis and still sometimes losing goes to show the G&W struggle
No denial, just pretty sure a 40% combo is definitly DIable for a lot of characters.Oh. Okay. *cough*Denial*cough*
Fair repeat into rar bair can be in and around 30-40%, can work for a long time and there's various other 'intos' for it (such as ftilt, nair, etc), at more specific percent or on sour spot bairs you combo into bouncing fish, potentially doing even higher amounts, especially if it's off stage.
"ZeRo's Combo Video" only, right?
I mean, just staple sheik crap :<
Fortunately I believe not every character is in the sweetspot weight/etc where they get reliably combo'd by this.
Mega Man's Leaf Shield is hilariously effective for gimping Ness.
Not if it's from Kirby's uptilt!
Luigi's 2 chaingrabs say hello.
Apologies, I meant NA tournament play. I've seen that set and still don't really see dominance in Wario's kit that could go up against the players in our NA regions. I'd love to see him piloted by a great player or two at Apex.
Yeah that's what I mean
